Conflicts between science and religion

the urge to proselytize is always strong

being honest on what i've learnt so far,converting ya aint my business thats Gods..

but it only involves help with specific abuses and it has been proven that religion alone is not enough to straighten out a person's life in the long-haul.

This would be a religion without Christ..

Mike and Jed, you give me too much credit. With my ringside seat, I am in a better position than you to observe the workings of my mind and I assure you that if I have any exceptional strength at all it is not my IQ but my range of motion. We each have our own special array of gifts. I put myself above nobody. When all is said and done, whatever gifts we have and whatever accomplishments we achieve are truly no more than a reflection of something a single individual has no hope to control or take credit for.

Ciak's last post was quite to this point.

As to kage's escalating urgent verbal certainty I feel the need to say this: I have little doubt that his life is being illuminated by a Living God and of course being human, the urge to proselytize is always strong, but it is a serious and dangerous mistake to overstep your own relationship to God in pursuit of meddling with someone else's. As a woman named Byron Katie succinctly puts it...there are only three things in life, your business, my business, and God's business. When a person focuses on my business it is a political matter, not a spiritual one. You can't take care of your business when you are dealing with mine. AA enjoins service in order to help the server, but it only involves help with specific abuses and it has been proven that religion alone is not enough to straighten out a person's life in the long-haul. You can share, but when you become strident, it transforms humility into nothing more than an empty cipher.

On a lighter side .......... Did spoons evolve into forks ??? :laugh: :laugh: My Christian brothers are taught the doctrine of St Augustine, who died AD430, if there appears to be a conflict between demonstrated empirical or solid knowledge or a literal reading of the bible then the scriptures should be interpreted metaphorically. It was the same when the earth was considered the center of the universe and interpreting the Bible to fit that idea was chopped up and rolled over and regurgitated to reflect it . The church was wrong . Science was correct . I believe the bible is a dynamic book constant in it message that it can never be fully understood and should be interpreted for each generation collectively ... Science is a very good tool in this pursuit . Religious , Science fundamentalism tries to cast their long dark , dark ominous shadows over the minds of men who say and think different . Fundamentalism is a Trojan Horse driven by and filled with fear . IMO

Often we hear people say, "I'm on a spiritual journey. I am trying to find the truth. I am trying to find the light. I am trying to find God. I'm searching for God." Yet the Bible says that no one is really searching for God.

You would think that with all the religious belief systems in the world, this could simply not be. Yet God plainly declares in His Word, "If you look for me in earnest, you will find me when you seek me" (Jeremiah 29:13).

Let me be blunt: If you are seeking God, then you will find your way to Jesus Christ. And if you don't find your way to Jesus Christ, then you are not seeking God.

You might be playing religious games. You might be dabbling with various belief systems. But the true seeker will find the true God, and those who claim to be true seekers yet reject Jesus Christ are not being honest with God or with themselves.

Religion is humanity's search for God. But Christianity is God's search for humanity.

I have heard people say, "I found the Lord 10 years ago," as though God had been lost. But God wasn't lost; we were. God is seeking to save us, and if we really want to know Him, then we will find Him.

People do not come to Jesus Christ because they bristle at the thought of being sinful. They are unwilling to accept God's assessment of them. They are unwilling to acknowledge their guilt. That just bothers them.

Instead, they want to believe they can get to heaven by their own merit, by their goodness, and by their own deeds. But the Bible says that simply isn't so.

Woody That's exactly what the Bible teaches “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.”—Matt. 7:13, 14.

21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.

Not all religions are correct as Jesus taught in the bible. Everybody is not ending up in the same place no matter what they believe. That's what the bible teaches. Not my words. But I do Believe them.

"After some investigation . I found what was the main stream world wide idea before the scientific revolution . It was authored by Aristotle called the Great Chain of Being . The argument for no God I don't know how long that concept has been in existent . May be some good atheist could shed some light on it . Give it a try and don't run away when and if challenged . It could be educational if kept on a level of information God vs atheist ."

OK. I don't believe anybody 'up and made' man. The 10 commandments are a great idea. Treat me the way you want to be treated. Do unto others, etc.

There are things beyond the belief of many. I have seen things not seen by many others. Supernatural, yeah. I have seen what I fully believe to be an UFO. It helps in my belief that the AF jets chasing it were left in the dust. So, I believe. I have seen a ghost or two. One 'resides' not far from where I now live. After taking others to the place and having them experience that, they also believe. Spooky and real eerie stuff. Temp drop and all. Awesome.

I believe other planets have populations of some form or other. We haven't explored any other galaxy yet, of the millions out there. We'll see. Do you wonder what we'll find when we get to the edge? A wall? If so, what lies beyond? Another room like we now live in like motes of dust? What's down the hall after that?

Religions are a form of opinion, just like my non believer opinion. Opinions are hard to change. But nothing to fight over. With words or swords. Debate? Sure.

We should all just live together.

Consider lifestyles like religions. Just as varied. Drive down a street and see how others keep their homes of yards. Just because somebody doesn't conform to our ideals, doesn't mean we should make them our enemies. Religious beliefs sure can create some strife and violence. Totally uncalled for, I believe.

Whew! A lot of disjointed words from me! :unsure:

Some of the resistance to the idea there is a God is based in a very real and damn scary eye opening wake the @#*&% UP Event.... 2001the terrorist attacks .It transformed a fundamental harmless curiosity of religion and GOD into a "lethal and very , very dangerous curiosity". Before that GOD and fundamentalism were viewed as a little weird humours and some what harmless .Religion GOD had a veil that protected them from normal criticism. The gloves are off . I think the whole discussion is about that at this point . It will get past this if we are patience and allow the jabs and pokes to run off us like water off a ducks back . I think we understand that religion and science are very much in harmony and in tune with each other .

Jed Said: but to justify by saying that me and my ilk seek solace in in the confines of conformity is the sole insult. See what I mean about OVER SENSITIVE EGOS..

...........dont have the guts to leave any portion of their lives out of their own control Uh....yeah. Very profound Mike. Smacks of intellect. Spend a little time thinkin about that. About how little sense it makes.

As for judging Kage. I aint judging him, I am simply pointing out that I see nothing in his posts that indicate he practices as he preaches. As a college grad you should be able to differentiate between judgement, and observation.

BTW, the whole wordy thing, the analogies on double standards, and gods word being an effective life tool to virtually every problem it works for egg cos egg is egg. Egg you aint. ........So back off to the moral high ground with yer.

Hi Jed,

Very nice. I attempted to answer the questions you posed to me in a simple, clear and efficient manner, and that's what I get for a response. I could not have proven my original point about why such discussions fall apart any better than you have.

If my response to one of your many subtle, or not so, putdowns on christians leaves you with the impression that I have an over sensitive ego, and that's all you get out of my wordyness, I'm OK with that. When the only part of what I wrote that you can respond to was an obvious rhetorical example statement, I'm pretty good with that too.

You are quite right, Egg I am not, never claimed to be. He made the effort to visit me and I spent a couple days getting to know him. It was quite a pleasure to say the least. The man exists on a mental plane that lies beyond my highest aspirations. I can't comprehend where your statement ever came from, but for that thought to remotely cross your mind is quite a compliment, even if that was far from your intention. Thanks. I'll just leave it at that for I have obviously hit a nerve and am standing at the side of a road you refuse to cross.

I am not a college grad. Don't want you giving me credit I don't deserve. Based on your commentary above, I'm fairly sure that comes as no surprise to you. I was one of the top chemistry students in the nation, but I left college for roofing. In all honestly, I'm nothing more than a work-in-progress, with a lot of work left to do.

Pot Romans 13:1-7 Ciak aint holdin on to anything I accept. Jed please tell me how i can prove what i preach...on here??also this-"god's word being an effective life tool to virtually every problem" is true..read your bible.

ME 7.just because I work my American brothers and not mex's, don't mean I don't love their souls

kage Bible does say "keep the law of the land"

You gonna have to enlighten me here kage.

I found this image for copperman . I'm a Master Moron !! That's Mr Moron to knaves ............. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: kage in my mind and heart I have forgiven you . That's enough for me . If you want to hold on to it that is your problem . You may want to check the motivation behind that if you do . The word fundamentalist in its religious sense was added to the Oxford English Dictionary in only 1989 .

1.but hey,if i'm wrong whats it gonna hurt ya,,,but if its true

This is certainly not the basis of my faith,but it is a challenge to all those that call themselfs athesists..

2.I see nothing to indicate kage practices what he preaches

Please tell me how you came up with this,not even knowin me..

3.The atheist having the honesty to stand up for his convictions as opposed to the christian

I stand for my believes everyday..bud..with honesty by the way..

4.That being said to the constant misdirection staging with scripture references etc

when did i misdirect Ciak?..

5.fundamentalism

This is kinda funny comin from a guy who says he's a believer..

6.how blind fundamentalist ideas can get

since when did scripture become an idea??and blind??

7.just because I work my American brothers and not mex's, don't mean I don't love their souls

Bible does say "keep the law of the land"

8.doesn't need defended

if i am being mocked,laughed at,persecuted,..etc.etc...for my believe in Christ i look at it as a true BLESSING,because i know its the father of lies who's getting screwed..it only means he startin to worry,haha!!

and if my posts dont sound like a PHD'r(perminent head damage)its because i'm not I AM A ROOFER.

Jed Said: Mike, First. where am I being insulting? In light of the over sensitive egos in here Im doing my damndest to keep a civil tounge in my head. Second, where do you see its also quite obvious that Kages commitment to his belief is not built on that concept. I see no lineal thought process or logic in his posts. Little more than regurgitation of scripture in fact. My father backed up his beliefs with time and a no small portion of his salary to the church (he was also its treasurer for many years). My mother with a long list of charitable work including opening our house to many a wayward chistian who had no clear path. I see nothing to indicate kage practices what he preaches, and Pot G who has many times derided the mexican contingent doesnt appear to have much love for his brother. Both spout copy and paste from the good book and offer nothing tactile whatsoever. This is all so much of the double standard that is evident with the more ardent in the religious community.

In as lineal fashion as I can: First, look at your second sentence. "Over sensitive egos" is a pretty poor start to keeping a civil tongue. Second Kage has previously explained his conversion, and he speaks with more than a simple knowledge of scripture, which is foolishness to some, but with a passion and conviction that cannot be born of a questionable "belief". While it is possible for a martyr to die for a mistaken belief, no one would willing die for something they had little real faith in. From what Kage writes, I have little doubt that he would remain strong, even with a gun to his head.

I do understand completely that copy and pasting scripture to those that do not believe is of little value to the intended recipient, regardless of how good the intention. However, I have never heard the issue, life problem or relationship quandry that was not succinctly addressed in scripture. Even to those that reject it's ultimate teaching as God's Word and the path of eternity outlined, it can be an effective life tool. Heck, if this life is all they got, what better tool to use than one gives an answer to virtually every problem. ...... but I degress, that is not the point I was working toward. Just a sideline observation.

As for what one does, or does not do, I admire what your parents did. But it does not speak to their belief in and of itself. I know believers and non-believers alike that do good works in many ways. While the numbers lie far in favor of the believer, I also know many pew warmers who's lives outside of church on Sunday bear no outward expression of a sincerely held belief in Christ, God or even the Good Fairy. Church would appear to be little more than an additional business decision and/or social event.

How one could judge the context and content of Kages life in the location his shoes are planted, based solely on the comments made here......................... I have no idea?

"Double Standards" exist in every facet of our society. One could demonstrate foolishness in no finer fashion than to judge the merits and life of Mother Teresa by the actions of Jimmy Swaggart. Just doesn't make sense. No more than for me to judge the life of Jed by the writings of Charles Darwin.

Unfortunately, many form their opinions of Christ and christians as a whole by their own experiences with religion. Christ Himself said that true religion was taking care of widows and orphans, but what man has turned it into is something of little resemblance. However, it is not my place to defend Kage, I'm sure he's quite capable on his own, and truthfully, doesn't need defended. I guess the only reason I did is due to the old banker way of doing things. When banking associates are being trained to recognize counterfiet money, they are never given anything but real money. By being intimately familiar with the real thing, without being polluted by memories of fakes, it makes the fake easier<

Jed Said:I too would trust a self professed atheist before a christian, and not because I am one. The atheist having the honesty to stand up for his convictions as opposed to the christian who seeks solace in the confines of conformity.

...........and if yer gonna quote me, quote the the whole thing, not just the second sentence, both lend pertinance to each other. As a college grad you of all should recognise that doing what you just did takes it out of context.

I would humbly disagree. The first part was simply a statement of agreement with another posters comments. The second line was the justification held in your mind for that agreement. I could care less that you feel that way, but to justify by saying that me and my ilk seek solace in in the confines of conformity is the sole insult.

If I were to say the athiest is only an athiest because they don't have the guts to leave any portion of their lives out of their own control, it may or may not insult you, in fact it just might draw out a fist pump and a "Da** Right", but I'm sure it would insult more than a few athiests. Therefore, I won't say it in the context of a discussion that I wish to see grow.