Dead valley question

clvr...... looks great man !

Would love to see more info on the cricket you made. I would like to try that myself. Im pretty handy with a brake, yet... have never made a cricket before. I've always shingled them. I think that looks fantastic, & can think of a few scenarios where that would work better than shingling one.

Clvr, have you ever tried to make a 1 piece cricket? Its so fast and easy, like you said much faster than wood, shingles and step flashing. With a 1 piece you do end up with a void where the "ridge" meets on each end. When i did asphalt i used eternabond tape on those voids. Not sure if thats any better, just sharing experience.

Yes, with the proper techniques copper can do anything. That being said, i think what you did was appropriate for that house. I respect you for asking about copper! Good to know all your options.

Wywoody, wow! Thats a lot of house for only 800k!!! I love the look of the kitchen. Sure miss seeing brick too lol.

Im a firm believer of the old rule of 10% of the cost of a home going toward the roof. Im confident that a permanent roof could be achieved on that home for the 10%. Then again, is the construction of this home compatible with permanent roofing? Ive lived in the usa and it reminds me of a modern production home.

This is for sure, yes that would be a 10-15 mil home here in nassau, and yes a permanent roof would cost close to a mil. However, around here that would not be considered a fine home and would get a cheap roof. By cheap i mean metal or concrete at best. Probably around 2k per square.

We live in different countries that are extremely different so really comparison is kind of a waste of time. But the 10% rule applies everywhere. Unfortunately its tuff to get 1% these days meanwhile landscapers are getting no less than 20%! This reflects the prevailing mindset and priorities.

I dont want to get confused as though im attempting to "sell" people on permanent roofs, just here to give my 2cents as someone who never touches a temporary roof.

Would i do details differently on a temp roof? Heck yes!! My problem is that i dont which is why i have to stay away from temp roofs because i lose money overdoing my details and with certain products like "metal" for instance, permanent details are not an option. But i did catch myself when i did asphalt, i was installing copper step flashings, ground in then packed with lead wool, etc. Someone asked me why i was installing permanent flashings on 10yr roofs? From then i stepped it down to aluminum and caulking. Made more sense.

I was recently asked to install large copper crickets on a new home. I asked what the roofing would be. They said enviroshake. I said no need to use copper. Its a huge waste of money when that roof will be torn off within 5 yrs tops. Besides i wont put my work on those type if homes for fear it "cheapens" my brand. Anyway the plans called for tpo on the small flats around the dormers so i said they would be best off with tpo everywhere else. Like Kurtis, i hate to see good copper go to waste.

I respect that you stay away from middlemen. I refuse to work for them myself. I must deal with owner 1on 1 or no deal. Learned that the hard way. Lol

Hey permanent roofing isnt for everyone or every home. I say if youre making money and happy, stay doing what youre doing just dont disrespect permanent roofing. If someone here is struggling and looking to reinvent themselves, perhaps pierce into a new market, theres people here to help. We need more of us. You run into a situation that calls for details that exceed yours, call Kurtis. He will knock your socks off, impress your customer and give no bs, no guessing, real deal, permanent results.

Thx for the dialogue. Respect guys

bdub, you're right we are completely different markets. I have done plenty of work on houses in the $2-11 million range. But for a price comparison, this is a house that we recently did maintenance to prepare it to list.

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/16516-NE-130th-Ave-Brush-Prairie-WA-98606/23319237_zpid/

It sold for $800,000 within a week of being listed. If that house were on Paradise island Bahamas or Atherton CA, it would be a 10- 15 million dollar house. But would that have made the roof any better? Apples to oranges.

I live 70 miles inland, but occasionally work on customers' beach homes that are subject to salt air and upgrade to either copper or stainless. I prefer stainless because of better compatibility and impact resistance.

Whenever I am teaching someone about repairing tile roofs, the first thing I teach them is ATD. Attention to detail. You are there to correct someones' lack of ATD. I don't know about you, but I don't put less effort on details differently for a 50 year roof than I would for a "permanent" roof.

I avoid historic restorations because I avoid bureaucracy. But I still work on clay roofs and install copper flashings on them a half dozen times a year. But never when an architect, archivist, GC etc are involved.

Thanks, it's a two piece cricket. Sealed w/ NP1 - hope it holds up like it says. I think I could do that cricket again in just a fraction longer than it would take to shingle it. Loading up the break would be the time killer.

I think copper would have been a heck of a lot easier in the dead valley. It had a slight change in direction/pitch, do you think I could have stretched the copper a bit to do it in one piece? Not worth it? Other problems?

I know this is pretty basic stuff for a lot of you guys, but I only know of one other company near us doing things like this. And they only do sheet metal jobs and HVAC, mainly commercial.

Wywoody.... I have to point out that i exist in a completely different market. I work on homes in the 10 - 50 mil range. In this market as well as historic restoration, there are well proven standards. When building a permanent roof, it is critical that every single detail is permanent as well.

Looks good man! Im sure you did the best with the budget they had. I knew they wouldnt want copper was just answering your question. I really like your chimney cricket. I used to put those on shingle roofs too. Best you can do with shingles in my opinion. I cant tell is the chimney cricket 1 piece?

I think I could definitely do better next time, but doubt I will see any problems for a long time out of this one. edit: I also had my carpenter re-cut that bottom piece of cedar, too close to valley.

Went ahead and metal'd the cricket since I had the break there.

Getting to the job with 60mil I realized that if I didn't at least give it a whirl with the 24ga Kynar in the shop, I should just sell my brake now. I figured I would learn something bending $100 worth of metal right in to the scrap pile. As it turns out, I can use it! Not the most beautiful folds I've ever seen, but functional.

It wouldn't have took so long if I had initially noticed that it has a very subtle pitch change. Duh.

Bdub, thanks for the words cheerleading for copper. I may learn soldering copper as a hobby, but I guarantee you, I would never do it as part of roofing. I have soldered copper pipes 3 different times and never had any leaks. But I greatly dislike the the "suddenness" that happens when soldering pipes. I don't feel like I have any control.

The backlog I face in tile maintenance will fill out my career, so there is no need for me to start going out saying "here let me make that detail copper and I'll guarantee it until I'm 110."

Clvr and Tinner, one of the reasons I didn't use a flat lock was it takes away the ability to make any adjustments or slide under existing siding at the top of a cricket. You are dealing with two walls and a pitched roof that intersect, the ability to slide even a tiny bit is valuable.

I haven't used that method for a long time because I started using single-ply and SA for most of them. The rest of them,after enduring a couple of EIFS lawsuits, I feel no shame at looking at tough details and saying "let a sheet metal guy do it."

Bdub: I will be practicing more folding next winter. Planned on doing it this winter, but didn't make enough time. I figured I could fold copper against the left part, but don't really know how to make it precise. Basically, I'm out of time, so I'll be using 60mil rubber.

I don't have any copper in stock either. Only 24ga Kynar steel, and I'm not sure I could manipulate it that well with my limited experience.

I learned one fold last year that helps me to not cut a step flashing and I've wanted more ever since.

Woody: Interesting, I wouldn't have tried it with flat sheets only w/ sealants, just because my limited experience tells me that might not work. I was thinking I could maybe do a cleat like you would in a snap-loc valley but that eliminates the 10" of headlap(in a way) I started this thread to see what has worked for others, and knowing that could come in handy in the future.

I see you've been talking to Kurtis. Erno is full of tricks too. I try a blend of what they both teach. Only time i solder is the BIG pans, especially in the bottom cross section. And Fl copper and LLC roofs. Erno, Hans, or one of the teachers even liked my soldered lock seam in a valley with loose locked panels. I was doing all valleys like Erno with DL's seams, but Revere and nearly everybodyspec'ing jobs disagreed, so I went to the lock strip. Go figure.

BTW, Woody, when working steel, I use the SS flat lock spec with a gutter sealer in the back of both folds.

Wether its steel or brass, the proper technique remains the same. Patterns, pocket folds, fillet seams, hand tools.

As with fishing, there are specific knots for specific materials. Your typical hitch will cut through itself at around 20lbs. So no matter what the weight of your line, you have 20lbs of strength with that knot. Works fine for small things. When you get into heavier fishing, requiring more strength, more complex knots are needed. An insufficient knot on a heavy line is a complete waste just as a complex knot on a small line. A boater/fisherman should have several knots in their tool box to accommodate multiple conditions.

As this applies to the topic, maybe painted steel caulked together is appropriate. However the seaming technique is the maximum for strength and longevity. When using this technique one is guaranteeing the lifespan of the work to be as long as the material. Copper just happens to have properties which make it easier to seam and will outlast most others.

I recently learned this from someone right here on this forum. All ive been doing is slate, ludowici, hardwood and copper for over a decade. I thought i was the copper guy. What he showed me was completely counterintuitive and honestly hard for me to grasp at first. But once i saw the light, i changed forever. I will never look at sheet metal the same again. I used to be proud of my soldering. I only use hand irons, never ever had a joint fail. Now it makes me cringe even just to think of cutting and soldering anything!!! I was humble enough to learn and it paid off bigtime. Now im so embarrassed at myself for thinking i was any kind of craftsman with copper.

The techniques are simple and require a bag of hand tools, no electricity and once you get the basics, a whole world opens up of what you can do. Funny the guy who taught me had a goal of teaching rather than installing but teaching this to roofers seems to be impossible. People reject simple truths with fierce rage.

Copper is not a bling item whatsoever. It has a perfect place in roofing and that window is one of them. Flash that once, properly and not only have peace of mind but go ahead and put one two even three temporary roofs on around it and leave it. Look at how people scratch their heads now, imagine how much worse in the future?!

Learn seaming, pattern making, you will not regret it. You can still profit from giving the sheep the things they demand but you will use this skill from time to time if you can keep yourself sharp.

By far, the most common flashing used in my area is painted steel. I regularly work on 30-40 year-old roofs and never see valley metal rusted out. I replace valley metal often, but it's to use a different type that resists damming and not because the old metal rusted through. Copper use around here is a bling thing, more for the owner's ego than for increased longevity.

Although it's been more than 15 years since I've done it, I have installed at least a dozen crickets and pans with painted steel (which of course can't be soldered) with more than one piece. They all had 10" or more lap and were sealed on the upper edge of the lower piece with a caulking that would stay flexible. I never have had a callback on any of those

Hey bro to get back to your question....

Yes that can be done in copper and with no caulking and no solder! Copper would by far be the most long term solution and its proven so no guesswork.

Yes, I think that would work. I'm not sure of the longevity, but putting a termination bar in the valley would keep it there. I was thinking the SelfAdhesive hidden RTA strips, but your way surely wouldn't pull out. I wouldn't try that unless I had a guy in the business for a long time say its worked well for him. So there ya go :)

Basically, what this boils down to is that I want a long term solution, but I've not done many of these with different products. Just trying to get a little better every day.