Sitting in Atlanta Airport

I think it's disheartening that this tread is turning hostile. This website has been then the salvation of many a roofer by you guys debating but I am getting that feeling it's going to far. Lefty is way to smart to be drinking Kool-aid and I don't think he is trying to recruit you. The day you quit tying to improve you slide backwards. If I was sitting in an airport after learning a few new ideas I would want to share it with my friends too. There is no perfect fit for every business, we all take the information that we want and throw the rest way.

Religion, Politics and Roofers Success International, Sheesh.

I banned Richard Kaller because as he was serving you good advice he was using this Forum to shamelessly promote himself. I actually had to pay someone to read through his topics. I have always been very welcoming to our RCS'ers promoting their products and they did it respectfully. Kleen Cutter, G-Tape, Kold King but I was paying Richard Kaller to post here and I didn't want to. He refused to tone the posts down so I banned him. One of two guys I banned after all these years.

Now I am going to be late for my meeting!

Hi Lefty, Thanks for your gracious responses and not escalating any hostility.

I've been in your situation where what you've built gives you the incentive to build things bigger and better than you would on your own for employees you value and (in your case) family, Sadly, my only son just isn't roofer material. A kid gets a masters from Johns-Hopkins and a MBA from Wharton and it's like they forget how to swing a hammer.

As for your claim to what was pictured was "accepted practice". At no time in my career has working without safety equipment at that height been accepted practice wherever I've worked, 7 different states and two Canadian provinces. But I'll accept the fact that where you're at, it wasn't cracked down on.

That picture was taken at least 5 years after I had cut way back out of frustration. When I had 3-4 crews installing tile, I was getting another safety violation every 18 months or so despite constant nagging, safety pay incentives, thousands of $ worth of safety equipment. Here in Washington, the state is both the WC carrier and the safety OSHA. Repeat violation fines automatically double. I realized that I had to only have one crew, with me onsite, figure a method and expand from there. I also had lots of resentment over the fact that between the WC premiums and sales tax revenue, I was generating $20-30,000 per month to the very state I perceived to be a constant harasser. Once I cut back to just me and one crew, I found I enjoyed that more. I also have only had one violation since 1996.

Lefty, you state your crews are all now in full compliance. I'd venture that at no time have you ever managed a company that was in full compliance on a roof with tile stocked on it. When you've done that, I'll accept your condescension of me being a lowly lone wolf type.

GKRFG Said: Lefty, Thanks for the post. I believe that you have built up a great business over the years. I also believe that you have managed to find the right kind of people and that to do right by yourself, your business and your people that now is the time for the company take another step.

disclaimer: BTW- I have absolutely no talent for conciseness :)

I say this because this is where I would like to see my business go and I have always thought that the biggest obstacle to improving my company is ME. And I would wager that is true of everyone of us. No matter what your goal is. Few of us in this trade have a business background and there comes a point where lack of knowledge is the wall to climb. There are not a lot of resources to find that type of knowledge. I applaud your decision to take this step and look forward to hearing anything you might want to share.

For the Lone Wolves the problem is not knowledge but eventual physical limitations.

I also enjoyed Kallers input. I would love to hear you take over the role. B)

We are alike. I have been blessed with 2 son's and a sister that work with me. Without them I would just have a good paying job. I do not know if I could have got to wear you are at without them. My hat is off to you and what you have done.

My sister died of cancer just before Christmas. She stopped working in March of 2014. One of the reasons we made the move.

I share my knowledge on how I run my business freely, knowing I will be attacked most of the time. I could never do what Richard Kallar did being under constant attack. Richard never shared any of the practices that would come under the confidentialty agreements.

Bob Tronson, I think would have shared more, if it where not for the constant attacks on the pratices he learned from Richard Kallar. I read Bob's website and used the information there to improve my business.

seen-it-all Said: Question for Lefty:

You seem to want more than just running a business. Is the next step creating a brand in reference to why a customer would choose your company over another. I believe once you have a brand, what ever it may be, price no longer is the dictating factor in a customers purchasing decision.

We have already reached that point. My company is well know with a good reputation and price is not why people have us do their roofs.

I definetly know that I do not know how to hire the right people. This is one of the reasons that we joined. They have the systems and relationships with companys to insure you hire the right people. There are other areas of running a business that we could spend years working thru or go to the people that have the systems in place.

wywoody Said:

Lefty Said:

wywoody Said: My goal wasnt to personally install. But when I got much beyond that, I realized my goal wasnt to spend my time putting out fires, managing egos, fixing below-par work and being a constant safety nag.

This is the biggest problem with most employees. They thing the things you listed are not part of running a business. They think that installing is 95% of the business. With that attitude they think that they are the most important part of the business. They think the business owner is just reaping the rewards of the installers hard work.

What you stated is you were looking to reap the rewards of the installers without running a business.

You qualify as running a business. I would dare to say that you are just providing yourself with a good paying job and you hire help to get your job done. And there is nothing wrong with that. Actually that is what is great about this country. Anyone can do that if that is what their goal is.

Projecting a little of your inner Elizabeth Warren there, Lefty? (you didnt build that business.)

Ill admit to shortcomings in my people management patience, but I refuse to allow others to define whether I can run a business profitably, legally, ethically dedicated to uncompromised quality of the end product.

I also have a good memory. I recall pictures of a steep church reroof with 6-8 workers with 0 safety equipment at a height that could bring felony charges for the company owner. The sheer disregard for the workers safety and the stupidity of posting it astonished me. I still remember my thought when seeing it That idiot has no business running a business.

I started out in the roofing business just to create myself a good paying job. I hired people to get my job done. That lasted 20 years. The last 15 years my goal changed. It is now to create a company that provides the best service in my area for my customers , the best place to work, and a company that can run without me. I have accomplished that before I joined RSI.

About that church roof, at the time that was accepted practice. If you would have picked pictures I have posted since then, you could not call me an idiot. Since then everyone wears a harness unless we set up the safety rail system on shingle roofs. I have seen some roofers in our area use harness's, but I have not seen any use the safety rail system.

Mike I admire your loyalty, but that does nothing to alter my perception of the cultish nature of RSI. Anything I have said about or to Lefty has been meant just as spirited conversation. With the possible exception of my response to his condescending about his superior management of safety issues, that was to let him know the grain of salt I take with him.

And Lefty, I sure miss the days when everything you posted started with Hi.

And Mike, on the residential side, starting from nothing is the norm.

Success breeds resentment. It always has, it always will.

While we are all free to define "success" in our own way, the individualism common to the roofing business, where roofing "companies" are often started by people who had trouble working with others, for others, or in many cases weren't even hire-worthy to most upper level corporations, organizations like RSI will always be despised by the general masses in the roofing business. It's just what it is.

What I know about Lefty Holencik is this: 1. He came from nothing. 2. He built the most recognized and respected residential roofing company in his market (which is a fairly large market, and has been verified by public opinion polls) 3. He built that company by doing things most people in the residential market say "can't be done". Like using real employees instead of subs. Paying exceptional health and retirement benefits, bonus programs and utilizing a strict point-system for discipline.... all before having anything to do with RSI. 4. He doesn't spend his money foolishly. 5. He researches every major decision he makes, and usually seeks trusted counsel before doing so.

IMHO, if Lefty Holencik joined RSI, the facts are far different than what one would gather by reading this thread. Doesn't mean there aren't bad apples in, and viable examples of the above, to be found in RSI, but I'm willing to bet a lot more than a month's worth of pay that RSI offers an education worth paying for, a blueprint worth studying, and roadmap on how to get there, if your definition of success goes beyond "Working for myself and putting on the best damn roof possible".

It's also my experience that most roofers are about 1/2 as good as they think they are, and don't recognize real quality when they see it, because they've never really been exposed to it in the workplace. I think the bulk of the people that participate here are exceptions to that rule, as most people willing to share their wisdom and experience have taken the time to actually learn something. But Lefty Holencik is nobody's fool. Even if the only words he ever said about RSI was "It's a good organization", I would take that word over a 100 examples to the contrary.

Richard Kaller got villified for the very same reasons. Very few roofers have what it takes to swallow their pride and pay-the-piper to teach them what they think they can do better for themselves. And that's a fact you take to the bank. I tip my hat to Lefty and Jesse for (my own paraphrase here) admitting they had gone as far as they were able with their own skill set and joining an organization that enables them to collectively share what works and doesn't. You can't sell ethics, you can only teach them by example. I am willing to bet that the Holencik's have as much of an impact on RSI as RSI has on them.

Go get'em Lefty.

My problem with RSI has nothing to do with whether one of their roofing company templates and business plans works or doesn't work. It is the business plan that RSI uses for themselves I have a problem with.

They promise life changing improvements.

They demand confidentiality.

They have big, happy meetings where everybody touts their success.

Yeah, I've seen that business plan, it works for lots of things, multi-level marketing, Ponzi schemes, dumping timeshares, religious cults.....

Now, we used to have a regular poster here, a nice kid named Kyle. If I remember right, he had built himself a medium-sized residential company, but realized he had to drastically change it because most his labor was subcontracted. His situation was probably an ideal one to use the services of RSI. He stated they offered different business templates and he chose a cartoon-themed one.

I say good for him and I wish him well, but I couldn't help but notice that he quit hanging out here, almost like he had been told to avoid places that are negative to RSI.

GKRFG Said: I also enjoyed Kallers input. I would love to hear you take over the role. B)

lefty can speak for himself, but as I understand the program, members sign confidentiality statements. What you will get from RSI members is recruitment, not teaching. They pay a lot of money for what they get.

A couple of months ago, a radio ad prompted me to do a little research. There was a local plumbing company that was bought out by a national holding company of service-type companies. (Terminex is one of their holdings).

After being acquired, this plumbing company quickly evolved from being an all-around plumbing company to more of a roto-rooter type company. Their radio ad touted that they could unclog your drain for $99. Now, I occasionally do home service calls for about that, but that is only for widows that I feel sorry for and I was curious how a big company could do it with all their overhead.

It turns out they can't. They don't hire experienced plumbers, they train their own. 2/3rds of their training isn't even plumbing, it's high-pressure selling. Their service reps are not paid hourly. They get a flat rate of $20 for each service call, then a commission on the upsell. They push hard for using the video scope for looking at the clog, which adds $199 to the $99. They push hard at sewer line replacement at a rate 2-3 times what other plumbers charge.

If you read reviews on this company, they are filled with people that paid $3-600 just to make them go away.

Now, in the boardrooms of RSI-types or MBA classrooms this model might be considered an ingenious way to get and grow business, but for me, I'll pass on moving "up to that next level".

GKRFG Said: Lefty, Thanks for the post. I believe that you have built up a great business over the years. I also believe that you have managed to find the right kind of people and that to do right by yourself, your business and your people that now is the time for the company take another step.

disclaimer: BTW- I have absolutely no talent for conciseness :)

I say this because this is where I would like to see my business go and I have always thought that the biggest obstacle to improving my company is ME. And I would wager that is true of everyone of us. No matter what your goal is. Few of us in this trade have a business background and there comes a point where lack of knowledge is the wall to climb. There are not a lot of resources to find that type of knowledge. I applaud your decision to take this step and look forward to hearing anything you might want to share.

For the Lone Wolves the problem is not knowledge but eventual physical limitations.

I also enjoyed Kallers input. I would love to hear you take over the role. B)

Question for Lefty:

You seem to want more than just running a business. Is the next step "creating a brand" in reference to why a customer would choose your company over another. I believe once you have a "brand", what ever it may be, price no longer is the dictating factor in a customers purchasing decision.

wywoody Said:

A successful roofing company owner that joins RSI, is like a gourmet chef trying to get a McDonalds franchise.

No, I just want to make an honest living. Call me utopian.

Lefty Said:

wywoody Said: My goal wasnt to personally install. But when I got much beyond that, I realized my goal wasnt to spend my time putting out fires, managing egos, fixing below-par work and being a constant safety nag.

This is the biggest problem with most employees. They thing the things you listed are not part of running a business. They think that installing is 95% of the business. With that attitude they think that they are the most important part of the business. They think the business owner is just reaping the rewards of the installers hard work.

What you stated is you were looking to reap the rewards of the installers without running a business.

You qualify as running a business. I would dare to say that you are just providing yourself with a good paying job and you hire help to get your job done. And there is nothing wrong with that. Actually that is what is great about this country. Anyone can do that if that is what their goal is.

Projecting a little of your inner Elizabeth Warren there, Lefty? (you didn't build that business.)

I'll admit to shortcomings in my people management patience, but I refuse to allow others to define whether I can run a business profitably, legally, ethically dedicated to uncompromised quality of the end product.

I also have a good memory. I recall pictures of a steep church reroof with 6-8 workers with 0 safety equipment at a height that could bring felony charges for the company owner. The sheer disregard for the workers safety and the stupidity of posting it astonished me. I still remember my thought when seeing it "That idiot has no business running a business."

My story has gone from starting out installing, getting off the roof selling the product and company, buying a Franchise, taking on a Contractor partner, buying and flipping houses while running roofing business, selling off all assets of the roofing business except my license, becoming an independent insurance adjuster maintaing my roofing Lic. Assisting former customers with quality roofing and repairs using a Lic. Sub who worked for me as an employee before getting his Lic. The insurance job keeps me well during storm season along with roofing repairs and reroofs in between at my rate. I let all the total roofing contractors fight tooth and nail for their work. I am truly independent of employees very low overhead and a very nice living. Diversification has worked well for me. B) :) :) B) Deep Down In Florida Where The Sun Shines Damn Near Every Day