Mansard Problems

I have a client who I picked up a couple of years ago. They had this mansard re-roofed in 2009. It's about 160 squares, from the most expensive crew around. I really have respect for the owner, but they messed this one up.

Anyhow, these are falling off everywhere there is direct sunlight. They patched it several times and then started charging them, now we are patching it. I'm planning on setting a scaffold and re-nailing shingles as necessary, and manually adhering EVERY shingle that is on a problem side. Approximately 40 squares. T&M

Anybody done anything like this? Anybody think it WON'T work?

These are relatively simple to patch if one keeps a few galvie 3d or 4d nails on hand. Simply slide the laminate strip back in position, face-nail. The small head on the 3d nail holds the shingle securely without being conspicuous.

clvr83 Said: OS: Agreed. I have no problem defending my rates, especially if its less than a single day job. Its nice to have a good reputation.

Lefty: Your approach no doubt works, and is normally similar to how I would do it. This time, I just had a thought...

Two important things that I didnt think to mention: The shingles pop right open, hardly a flat bar needed. The repair will go very quickly. 2nd, this is a very cutup building for a mansard, lots of windows, decks, valleys, and dormer type things. My point is that the repair is cheaper than it might have been if they were brutal to get apart, and the replacement cost would be sky high.

Most mansards I see are gut up the same way. I go with my gut and experience too.

Probably 1/3 of what I do is for T&M. Less than half of that work is done where I give the customer an hourly rate or material cost or markup %. It's more like a repeat customer calls, tells me what they need and I schedule it. If I can't make money on that job, I'm stupid.

I've had quite a few employees that have worked for me and my competitors. One thing they always take note of is, when they do a repair with me, we fix everything we see that's wrong. When they worked for others, they are specifically told to ONLY fix specific things.

One thing that I feel makes customers more trusting of T&M situations is if you have a work backlog and they have to wait a little for the work. I wouldn't trust somebody that said "I can have a crew there tomorrow", the implication would be they have nothing going on and would draw out the job.

I have worked on a few of the Elk Prestique I jobs and the sealant strip on them was the same way. Normally the Elks would seal down tight and you tore the shingles to get them apart. On the "I's" though they came apart easily and were easy to tie into. It makes a huge difference on how they are sealed.

I think they are TAMKO's, but they might be GAF.

OS: Agreed. I have no problem defending my rates, especially if it's less than a single day job. It's nice to have a good reputation.

Lefty: Your approach no doubt works, and is normally similar to how I would do it. This time, I just had a thought...

Two important things that I didn't think to mention: The shingles pop right open, hardly a flat bar needed. The repair will go very quickly. 2nd, this is a very cutup building for a mansard, lots of windows, decks, valleys, and dormer type things. My point is that the repair is cheaper than it might have been if they were brutal to get apart, and the replacement cost would be sky high.

Seen it all, That is right on. Lefty, like Twill said, if you are not making money on a T & M job, something is wrong.

What you have to do is to "define" time and material. I charge different amounts depending on what I am working on. slate commands a higher per hour rate than shingles for example. Included in my per hour labor rate are all of the expenses for the man, plus the cost of running the business. The materials are at retail. I then add the two together and tack on a 15% profit margin. I add that to the expenses of any subs too. There is no risk involved for me so how/why can I loose? for the building owner, it makes sense in that I don't have to guess at what it would cost, and play games. They trust me and I work hard and efficiently.

I think it would be hard to do a T&M contract if you are larger than a one or two man show. How would you justify to the customer the "company overhead" in terms of wages for a secretary or estimator, office rent, debt servicing etc. If you are small you can do alright on a T&M if the customer knows up front what you are going to be billing for. On a T&M I let them know that the clock starts when I leave home and ends when I get back home. There is a charge for administration, consult time, picking up materials, fuel, payroll burden and Workers Comp are tacked on as a % on all wages plus a % tacked on for profit. Some people want to do T&M and they don't mind paying for everything. It may be more administration time and paperwork but if you are charging for that already it is covered.

wywoody Said: I do quite a lot of T&M work. I usually give a price range guesstimate if asked.

A while back I told a guy his repair, which had a lot of variables, would be between $4200 and $5000. He responded Cut the sh*t, we both know youll come in at $4990.

I told him that he overestimated my greed, I would be more subtle at something like $4938. He laughed and told me he wanted a fixed price and if I could do it for $4938, it was mine. When I finally finished, if he had accepted the original offer, his work would have been around $4600.

Your example proves that people do not want T&M prices. That is why we always give a firm price. We give people what they want and that is a choice.

Twill59, Exactly, It would not make financial sense to do a tune up on that roof. My cost would also be close to replacement, if not more. The time to unseal and re-nail and re-seal the shingle, plus replace all the ones you are going to damage, it would not be cost effective for the building owner.

I do quite a lot of T&M work. I usually give a price range guesstimate if asked.

A while back I told a guy his repair, which had a lot of variables, would be between $4200 and $5000. He responded "Cut the sh*t, we both know you'll come in at $4990."

I told him that he overestimated my greed, I would be more subtle at something like $4938. He laughed and told me he wanted a fixed price and if I could do it for $4938, it was mine. When I finally finished, if he had accepted the original offer, his work would have been around $4600.

Clv83, I would not do this job with the scope of work as you are going to do it.

I would give them a price to keep fixing the shingles that drop. Once or twice a year. Say $800 for up to 1 bundle of shingles. Then a price for the 40 squares to re-roof. Let them make a choice. They may keep fixing for 5 years then re-roof. This way they can budget for the cost. With this approach you will never look like the bad guy. You will look like the person who gave them a choice.

The problem as I see it. You are going to re-nail all the shingles. This will break the adhesive that keeps the shingles together. You are creating a bigger problem. Once this adhesive is broken, I do not care how you nailed them, they will start to sag. Gravity is going to play its hand. Wind will start to blow off the parts of the shingles where the adhesive is broken. The pictures that Frank posted shows what can happen to the adhesive just from the sun. With your scope there is the potential to look like the first contractor.

You do not have this with 3 tabs.

Lefty: The stupid tax is utilized here too. I don't see my company or my workers suffering because of T&M. I see it as a job where they can't lose. Like I said, I don't do many jobs T&M, and this won't be the last work I do on this building.

You sound a lot like my Dad(other times as well), it took a while to convince him to do T&M on occasion. He still isn't wild about it, though.

Twill: Agreed, I would imagine we all know a guy or two who charges a low rate and then milks it. I'd rather charge what I'm worth and work like I always do.

Ahhh....... the ol "stupid tax"..... one of my favorties!!!

I can not slow myself down to where T&M is profitable.

With T&M I would need to put my most untrained and slowest workers on that job. Why would I put my best workers on a T&M job.

If I put my best workers on a T&M the customer would be the only one to win. My best workers will take the least amount of time and use the least amount of materials. It was not my mistake. Why should my workers and the company suffer for someone else's mistakes?

If I bid the job originally and did not get the job and am called back to repair it. I add a stupid tax. They had the chance to have it done right the first time and choose someone else. Now you pay extra.