Lets have some fun

The Work Order: http://www.rooferscoffeeshop.com/rcs/users/jimAKAblue/WO.pdf The Sketch: http://www.rooferscoffeeshop.com/rcs/users/jimAKAblue/Sketch.pdf

I'd like to have a robust, but rational and respectful, discussion regarding the pricing of a simple roof.

First, for fun, please give me an estimate of what you would do this roof for me, jimAKAblue, LLC. I am a general contractor. Of course, you get to state ALL of the terms.

Second, also for fun, please give me an estimate of what you would do this roof for me Mr Blue. I am a homeowner.

The purpose of this thread is to analyze the true costs of doing a roof like this from the various perspectives.

Stephen Said: blue, Locally I could find HUNDREDS of experienced installers for $25/hour and even more experienced laborers for $16/hour.

the last house we did comparable to the one you are asking about-we started at 8:00AM-and were packed up and gone by 1:00-1:30 each day. all workers got paid for a full 8 hours,even though we were only there 5 or 5.5 hours or so. stephen

You are a good employer. The only problem I would have working for you, if I was seeking employment would be the lack of steady, yearlong work.

blue, Locally I could find HUNDREDS of experienced installers for $25/hour and even more experienced laborers for $16/hour.

the last house we did comparable to the one you are asking about-we started at 8:00AM-and were packed up and gone by 1:00-1:30 each day. all workers got paid for a full 8 hours,even though we were only there 5 or 5.5 hours or so. stephen

I'm with stephen, I supply all materials, complete tear off, all eaves six feet ice shield, valeys ice shield , cap ovr vents, where applicable , myself, my crew , my trucks, my equipment, materials boomed to rooftop, we haul debris, total would be approximately $11,700. No subcontractors involved, no G.C. supplying anything but the check at completion , One day job. Seven of us.

i would be at $5790.00 for 3 tabs and around $6400.00 for 30 yr arch. Maybe nock $300.00 of for the gen if i wanted to do his work

I too laughed when I read that the sub was going to lay felt over shingles. Maybe someone should tell him that it will get all torn up in the installation process?

Stephen, you are saying that it will take 9 man days.

My guess is that most crews have a ratio of skilled labor to unskilled labor of 1:3.

If a mechanic is earning 25 per hour and the labor is earning 16, then the billing rate would be...lets double it....50 + 32 + 32= 114. 82 x 8 = 912 per day for the crew. Three days = 2736 labor.

Do you think doubling the labor is enough? Do you think paying 25 for a mechanic and 16 for a laborer is fair?

blue, as you know- I wouldn't be in the least interested in doing that project as a sub

but if a homeowner contacted me I suspect my price including labor,materials,permits,and debris removal would be north of $12,000.

in my area- I am assuming a pretty wide overhang-and 6 ft. of icegaurd all around the edge, icegaurd in the valley and then metal W valley flashing, a 3 flue chimney to be flashed in metal, and extensive and valuable mature landscaping to be protected. I would assume approx. 5% of the roof decking to be replaced and a noise ordinance forbidding us to start before 8:00 AM

We would do it with a crew of 3-it would take us 3 days-everything torn off each day would be cleaned up,removed and completely replaced that day. ALL workers covered by my workers comp. and liability insurance and paid through my payroll service as legit employees

Materials would be delivered to the roof top-and other than that absolutely no equipment like ladders,scaffolding,dump trucks,trailers or dumpsters would be left at the property over night

we generally arrive a 7:55AM-and are gone for the day before the homeowner gets back from work.

gotta run now-well actually----gotta BIKE now. I am training for a half marathon Oct. 10 and today is a cross training day.

Best wishes all, stephen

to be fair- since I am mostly in slate,tile and carpentry now- I wouldn't be tremendously interested in this project

Lanny, I wouldn't necissarily rule anyone out for lacking a glib sales pitch- but I would DEFINITELY rule out the first respondent for something he included in his email.

He mentioned that he won't do a layover-but that if he DID do a layover he would put felt between the layers of shingles!

this tells me that the guy doesn't know what in the heck he is doing and has absolutely no idea of proper workmanship or technique

CIAK Said: Jim Ill approach this from a bean counter point of view. First the cost of materials + a 25% mark up. Now by mark up I mean divide by 75% not multiply by 25%. Now the cost of labor including WC Liability etc. + a 40% mark up . Again divide by 60 not multiply by 40. Now include the permits and dumps with proper mark ups. This will get you close to your numbers to negotiate with. I left a couple of things out but you get the picture.

jimAKAblue Said: Heres the reason Im so critical about his message and approach.

I advertised, attempting to source a legitimate subcontractor with GL and WC. When he answered the ad, I offered to let him bid this demo project. Im just trying to figure out whether I want to move one step further and schedule a face to face. I let his actions and words, along with his approach, dictate my next move.

My decision is that I will thank him for his time, but I will not move forward in any way with him. I dont want to deal with a subcontractor that likes to bad mouth other work as one of his prime messages to everyone he deals with. I could imagine that he spews this negative stuff all day and every day to everyone he meets: customers, workers, suppliers, people in the grocery line, etc. I just want to work with happy up beat competent professionals. Thats my goal. I know its not easy.

Here is what I would prefer to see: Hi Jim,

Thank you for allowing me to offer you a ballpark. You have not given me enough information to properly assess this roof, but, since its suck a simple roof, Ill offer this up.

If the conditions are ideal, I would complete this roof in one day. Our normal retail price would be x. Since you are a general contractor, I would like to sit down with you and discuss volume pricing. For instance, if you are willing to contract with me for 50 of these roofs, I would do it for y. My goal is to provide my crews with steady and profitable work and Im sure you will be impressed with the quality of our service. I cant possibly make a proper presentation of all the benefits that you will receive if we are installing your roofs.

I would like to schedule a meeting with you as soon as possible. Is there a time that you would prefer?

Signed, Competent, Professional Sub-Contractor

My feelings are this: This sub contractor could benefit immensely if he would hire a salesperson to sell his services.

I understand the difference between adding 40% or divding by .60. Thanks for that warning though...I've met a lot of folks in the contracting business who didn't understand it.

I probably should have mentioned that I supply all the materials. The subcontractor is supplying labor only, including haulaway. Since they are supplying the worker's comp coverage, they would be including that in the estimate. I wouldn't have to duplicate that.

Jim I'll approach this from a bean counter point of view. First the cost of materials + a 25% mark up. Now by mark up I mean divide by 75% not multiply by 25%. Now the cost of labor including WC Liability etc. + a 40% mark up . Again divide by 60 not multiply by 40. Now include the permits and dumps with proper mark ups. This will get you close to your numbers to negotiate with. I left a couple of things out but you get the picture.

jimAKAblue Said: Heres the reason Im so critical about his message and approach.

I advertised, attempting to source a legitimate subcontractor with GL and WC. When he answered the ad, I offered to let him bid this demo project. Im just trying to figure out whether I want to move one step further and schedule a face to face. I let his actions and words, along with his approach, dictate my next move.

My decision is that I will thank him for his time, but I will not move forward in any way with him. I dont want to deal with a subcontractor that likes to bad mouth other work as one of his prime messages to everyone he deals with. I could imagine that he spews this negative stuff all day and every day to everyone he meets: customers, workers, suppliers, people in the grocery line, etc. I just want to work with happy up beat competent professionals. Thats my goal. I know its not easy.

Here is what I would prefer to see: Hi Jim,

Thank you for allowing me to offer you a ballpark. You have not given me enough information to properly assess this roof, but, since its suck a simple roof, Ill offer this up.

If the conditions are ideal, I would complete this roof in one day. Our normal retail price would be x. Since you are a general contractor, I would like to sit down with you and discuss volume pricing. For instance, if you are willing to contract with me for 50 of these roofs, I would do it for y. My goal is to provide my crews with steady and profitable work and Im sure you will be impressed with the quality of our service. I cant possibly make a proper presentation of all the benefits that you will receive if we are installing your roofs.

I would like to schedule a meeting with you as soon as possible. Is there a time that you would prefer?

Signed, Competent, Professional Sub-Contractor

My feelings are this: This sub contractor could benefit immensely if he would hire a salesperson to sell his services.

Jed Said: Because this is a forum and thrives on feedback. Indicative of the reaction you prescribe is the negative thread count here. If we all just gracefully clicked out of threads we werent interested in it would defeat the whole purpose of the forum .....Do try and keep up.

I think the counter pretty much tells the story. If 1000 people peek in and no one replies, I would consider that "feedback".

to a homeowner : 6400ish including materials and dump. to a GC : 6000ish including materials and dump.

I would have to call my supplier salesman to get a dead on accurate price down to the penny and I have already spoken with him 3 times today.

I always provide materials, I had a GC I gave labor and dump pricing to send me out to roof a house with seconds, I politely asked him to lose my phone number.

Jed Said: I do this shit at work. Why would I want to do it here.........for free

If you weren't interested in participating in this thread, why wouldn't you just gracefully click out?

The Roofing God Said: wouldn`t touch it at those numbers,and wouldn`t put my sales pitch etc. up for critique here,We spend enough time in customers homes working our skills and educating the customer,but my prices won`t be opened up for all to see--I can tell what the pricing structure of other contractors is that way,and when I know that info I gain the advantage

I can appreciate your want/need for pricing privacy.

Unfortunately for you, if I was your competition, everything I would want to know about your pricing and "sales pitch" would be easily discoverable. I'd simply have a friend or relative ask you to price out a roof replacement.

Heres another response from a roofing subcontractor. I estimate this house should take about 35 squares of shingles +2of starter+4of reach= 41 squares x $60 by square=$2460 just for labor and I take the old shingle away.

I'm guessing he didn't bother to open or read the Work Order.

Here's the reason I'm so critical about his message and approach.

I advertised, attempting to source a legitimate subcontractor with GL and WC. When he answered the ad, I offered to let him bid this demo project. I'm just trying to figure out whether I want to move one step further and schedule a face to face. I let his actions and words, along with his approach, dictate my next move.

My decision is that I will thank him for his time, but I will not move forward in any way with him. I don't want to deal with a subcontractor that likes to bad mouth other work as one of his prime messages to everyone he deals with. I could imagine that he spews this negative stuff all day and every day to everyone he meets: customers, workers, suppliers, people in the grocery line, etc. I just want to work with happy up beat competent professionals. That's my goal. I know it's not easy.

Here is what I would prefer to see: Hi Jim,

Thank you for allowing me to offer you a ballpark. You have not given me enough information to properly assess this roof, but, since it's suck a simple roof, I'll offer this up.

If the conditions are ideal, I would complete this roof in one day. Our normal retail price would be "x". Since you are a general contractor, I would like to sit down with you and discuss volume pricing. For instance, if you are willing to contract with me for 50 of these roofs, I would do it for "y". My goal is to provide my crews with steady and profitable work and I'm sure you will be impressed with the quality of our service. I can't possibly make a proper presentation of all the benefits that you will receive if we are installing your roofs.

I would like to schedule a meeting with you as soon as possible. Is there a time that you would prefer?

Signed, Competent, Professional Sub-Contractor

My feelings are this: This sub contractor could benefit immensely if he would hire a salesperson to sell his services.