Have you ever worked with a Roof Consultant?

Thanks CIAK, most appreciated.

Syd - S. Kane & Son, Inc. huh? Excellent reputation for sure. I actually think I did a project in NJ about 25 years ago with them/you. Are you still Philly based? I have a lot of union stories but know you got at least 1000 more that I would love to hear. Local 30 right? I did several projects with Ed Culbertson (Culbertson Company) and a few others up there. Dang, those guys were tough!

Chris You are a welcome personality here. Thanks from me . I have little experience form a commercial standpoint . I have many years of experience working with and personal relationship with engineers from roofing manufacturers. One of the answers I have discussed with them on the bubbles . It was being bandied about that it could be prevented or curtailed if a high quality primer was used .

JED - I think the big problem with CTP in the 90's was thinking they could use fiberglass felts rather than organic felts in the assembly. What OCF and Koppers found out was that the CTP softening point was low enough for the felt to actually migrate during the Summer months to the point that it actually became a 3/4 ply felt with no CTP. Adding to this problem was the use of asphalt coated fiberglass felts which also created some bonding issues. I also agree that the lack of producers of CTP increased the price and lessened the desire of roofers to install. Not to mention the hazard pay premium roofers had pay workers.

I also believe over the past decade, the overall quality of asphalt has degraded as well. It starts with the production of the crude from cheaper sources and the lack of tighter quality control in refining. As part of our inspections of BUR, we often take samples of installed products to help the contractor see what they are making and to assist in the placement of the assembly to make sure foot traffic is minimized, kettle and mop temperatures are maintained and to see how the bond is formed. Over the last several years, we see a major increase in the formation of air bubbles/pockets in the interply. We have had all the major players look at the samples where we have found this problem and actually conducted field testing as well. The bottom line is they all acknowledge the problem exists but no one has provided any answers. These air bubbles I believe will interconnect over time and create/promote membrane failure. We have heard excuses that it is oils/talc/moisture, you name it. I firmly believe it is related to the quality of the asphalt.

In regard to knowledge, I know I don't know everything but I do enjoy learning about roofing products. Does that make me a little sic in the head? I truly feel that the most important thing about my job is to put good contractors into a relationship with my clients. That is top of the list. After all, why does someone usually call someone like me to begin with. It is mostly because they know nothing about roofing and even less about roofing contractors. When spending the type of coin associated with roofing projects they don't want to be "sold" a roof based on affiliation with with a sometimes limited bias of the installer. So I think where we are best utilized is to try and develop a scope of work that fits the needs of the client (performance type specification), and then put the best 3 to 4 roofers in that specific assembly together for pricing (apples to apples bidding). A successful project to me is when the everyone is happy at the end, especially when the client boosts about the roofer. That is when I quietly slip out the door with a smile on my face.

On your next BUR installation, position yourself along the bleedout line parallel with the direction of the felt placement with the sun opposite you so you see a glare. If you look close enough, you will see very small bubbles that almost looks like glistening in appearance. Look closer and you will actually see bubbles releasing. Now imaging this being trapped in your interply. Not good, IMO.

Syd - That's the name. Does Goldhammer ring a bell? I think he had some part ownership before retiring. I seem to remember is nickname as "Goldie". Hell of a smart man. I knew his Son Lee for many years after they dropped the lincks part. The good ole days........Still can't conceive the 10-ply assembly you described. They don't build buildings like that very often. A monumental building with a monumental waterproofing assembly. Makes sense in a rather perverse way I guess. As commonly stated, "I would hate to have to reroof that"!

CrisB Company you referred to was Warren-Ehret, and Bob Lincks dad purchased it in the 60 or 70 s. If I can recall correctly, one of the original owners was a partner of Major Barrett (civil war) who was credited w/ the founding of tarred (pitch) felts and coal tar pitch systems. They were active in Phila.-Baltimore-DC. Insofar as the 10 ply installed at the Supreme Court, recalling after 34 years, applied 45# asphalt vapor barrier, tapered insulation PPG fiberglas, 2ply of glass fabric, 2 then 3 plies of pitch felts for a total of 10 plies of felt (by weight) and quarry tile finish on the patios. Our firm, in the business since 1903 was S. Kane & Son, Inc. (I believe the A/E speced fabric as a vermin deterrent.)

Welcome Chris! :cheer:

OS just reminded me of one. I need to find the pix. Ecostar roof going on. 12/12 toeboards only, nailed through the 'slates', pulled and caulked!

Boy Jed, you said a mouthful there. You are so right. Any system is only as good as its' weakest link. I don't doubt that they could still make good felts and asphalt or pitch, but it would be expensive and then the howls would come because of the costs associated with the superior systems. Value, somehow is left out of the equation.

I just saw some pictures of a slate roof going on over on the east coast. Some guy was low bidder and he was putting on slate just like he put on shingles....no lines and an AIR gun. BUT, he was cheap! Will these foolish owners ever learn? Will the "roofers" stay the heck away from places they have no business being? Stupid goes all the way down to the bone!

Well, I did'nt have much to say at first but as the topic get's moving I find my curiousity peaked. An old mate of mine is, or was a consultant in Tampa a few yrs back (RRC), I remember a nightmare of a job he was consulting on where he was caught between the condo assc of the condo's being roofed, and the roofers who were a firm out of NJ. The roofers were cowboys who won on a mis-calculated low bid so were out to cheat from the beginning. The story does'nt pay going into, (we all know the shortcuts, ruses I'm sure) but needless to say lawsuits resulted and he was in an unenvyable position for a while, not to mention unwinnable, being caught whichever way he sided. I suppose you could better protect yourself as a consultant with legal documentation/specs etc, I really don't know but am damn sure I felt sorry for him at the time. It detered me from ever considering it as a career in later life. Agree completely on the the built up roof being the best "bang for the buck" and the built up boys being the cream of the crop. My own days as a mop/roll man in nothing but shorts, boots and a hook blade in a razor knife in the CT summers are fondly remembered. The four ply cross win's for me hands down. Always has. The Ten ply CTP I have never heard of. What differences with tolerances, thermal shock, R value etc accompany that system Chris? And what would the lifespan be? Is it 10 ply straight, cross ply or what? Does it go down five then another five - days later.........four, four and two as a cap maybe? Is part of the reason for BUR not being what it used to be, not also due to the lack of quality in materials now? I heard recently that the mix/consistency of pitch now is inferior to the old stuff, which is why we see many CTP roofs applied in the eighties failing already, whilst also seeing some applied maybe much earlier still holding up. If this were true of pitch, would it not also apply to Type IV asphalt say?......and felts come to that..

Syd-

I worked at the AOC from 1976 to 1980, construction management division. They just finished the Supreme Court addition I think it was. Do you may remember a local Baltimore roofer I think was called Warren-Errent-Link, or something like that? I know they were a full union outfit and that was the roofer that did the Dirksen. It was also coal tar BUR but also copper metal flat and standing seam panels. I fell in love with roofing watching them. What company did you work for then?

In regard to the A/E firms back then, I actually found them to be really, really stupid. The in-house staff of the AOC seemed much better at resolving issues than the Architects. I also work in the construction document division so I got to see all the submittals/record drawings, etc., come through and most of the comments were from us. We had a standing joke because the Architect has a stamp that read "Approved as Noted, resubmit" and then no notes would exist. The A/E put this literally on every document! We NEVER filed a document with a plain ole "Approved" stamp.

and oh, 10-ply.....damn!

CrisB; Although Griffens manual was part of the limited library available on BURs, I think the quote came from a local and notorious BA. Interesting that you worked for the Architect of the Capitol. We did a portion of the Supreme Court for him around 1975 w/ a 10 ply coal tar and fibreglass installation; and waterproofing @ House of Representatives. And as I recall, had a wonderful relationship resulting in successful installations where logistics were monumental. It is uncommon that A/E s entertain and/or acknowledge practical suggestions or recommendations offered by professional roofing contractors to improve a project.

WOW, really good comments and insight that parallels my thoughts (mostly). Old School - I actually worked on a commercial roofing project in the 1970's that was coal tar pitch over strip-mopped fiberglass (OC system) to a metal deck (old Kmart roof design) and that got me interested until the pitch burn set in with the fiberglass rash. :lol: Before that I was a construction clerk working for the Architect of the Capital building the new Library of Congress and extension to the Dirksen Senate Office building. That was actually my first look at "flat roofing" and I was hooked. After that Summer I worked for an engineering firm doing roof inspections and BUR testing. I have been an active consultant in roofing since 1980. I take tremendous pride in being able to "work" with quality contractors in the DC area and fight hard to be fair in all my dealings. I am also a member of RCI and stay active in yearly education training (seminars) required through RCI. I also try and read all the trade mags and lurk at appealing roofing forums.:woohoo:

With that being said, I do hear about problems within my trade about how poor roof consultants treat roofers, lack knowledge, etc., and how they screw up project after project. In my little world, I don't see this first hand and often wonder what the world thinks of us in general, hence my topic.

I have no reason to hide who I am and if your curious, you can visit our website at www.wccconsulting.com. I am not here to promote anything about me or the company I work for. I just want to participate in "on topic" discussions, if you will have me. I am not new to the Roofers Coffee Shop, but I have been gone awhile. As things slow down, I find myself drawn to this site again.

Syd - I think that quote came from C. W. Griffin's, "Manual of Built-up Roof Systems" and I agree 100%. It really applies to BUR systems in that it is the only typical construction product that is built "on-site" based on the science of the components and the skill of the applicator and what is required of both to be successful. With today's influx of single-ply systems, it has become less of an art and more about productivity. I have no less respect for the single-ply warriors but hold the "true" hot roofers as the kings of roofing. A good mop man and paper-setter still rules the roost! Unfortunately, they are becoming rarer as we speak. FYI, I still believe that a good 4-ply BUR is the best roof assembly out there (bang for the buck) but it's use continues to be less popular. It is very sad.

kage Said: An actual exp. roofer who becomes a consultant is good,one that just learnt it in skool...please.

kage Said: An actual exp. roofer who becomes a consultant is good,one that just learnt it in skool...please.

You've got that right! :angry:

An actual exp. roofer who becomes a consultant is good,one that just learnt it in skool...please.

Vaa: I agree w/ your last paragraph. Unfortunately it would be critisized as a conflict of interest. Most times, roofing consultants are employed on projects w/ a number of competing contractors. To offset your concerns it is prudent for the buyer s agent to prequalify which companies are responsible/responsive.

http://rcs.si-sv2628.com/show_album_photo.asp?userid=30&AlbumID=92&file=593&s=0 This job comes to mind. Got held up for months because the inspcetor kept insisting I need to use a Velux Flashing Kit. He wanted me to install that gasket/channel kit that directs water under the roof, into a channel, then back ontot he roof. He could not conceive/understand that an uncut panel, with 1/4" clearance around/beside the lites would work better. :woohoo: