Have you ever worked with a Roof Consultant?

I hope I don't come to regret this topic but I am truly willing to take all the good with the bad. I find it helpful to be the best I can be in my profession and aside from the obvious trait to be honest at all times, I am will to learn from others experiences. I normally work with only commercial roofing contractors and very few residential (individual) projects, but would like to hear anyone's experiences. Specially, do find roof consultants to be generally good or bad for your profession?

I admit that most of the time I am a "lurker" on this site but I gotta tell everyone that I have learned a lot by doing that. This is a valuable site to understand what everyone is going through in all aspects of your business. I really do admire the specialty skills that get shared in copper, slate, unusual repairs, etc. Even learning about "The King's" vacation plans in sunny FLA! B)

Also, BUR with a gravel surface does not always outlast BUR with a cap sheet and cap sheets do not always blister. If moisture can penetrate a ply and cannot get out the way it got in, or cannot get out fast enough, when it vaporizes it is going to pry apart the ply sheets. That part I can understand, but a cap sheet is going to allow out-gassing too. Just consider the ceramic granules as tiny rocks. I don't know about non-asphaltic coatings. No real exposure to them. I can only suspect they would tend to 'lift' from the asphalt surface.

This isn't making a whole lot of sense to me. I suspect there are too many things going on at the same time and getting all mixed together in the discussion. If I'm not mistaken, asphaltenes are not created by weathering, they already exist in the oils. Maybe this points to flocculation, but deep alligatoring imo is a structural thing, not really a chemical thing per se. As it goes through temperature cycles a heavy asphalt glaze reveals to all the world that it has very little elongation power. It cracks. Use it as a relatively thin layer bound to and between reinforcement sheets and it hangs in there pretty well. Leave it out in the open, spread thick, on its own and subject it to stress and it's a goner, about as much hope of surviving intact as a scab on flexing flesh.

Vaa; From a lecture I attended, speaker mentioned that asphalts are somewhat soluble, and age about 3%/year into asphaltenes - (much like brown stains remaining arround the bathtub). In my book, I think they age far more than that - probably in the area of 20%/year. My first experience w/ asphalt was in 1940, when I reported the condition of a new roof to my dad that it was severely alligatored, and the materials were topnotch - Trinidad Asphalt. I then learned coating was just too heavy . IMHO smooth asphalt roofs can weather indefinitely contingent on inspection and recoating every 3 years. This is particularly true on the modifieds. Insofar as the fuming issue, this was rectified by the manufacturers when felts were perforated.

Old School: Pitch is an aromatic hydrocarbon (asphalt is an aliphatic hydrocarbon) and is similar to the benzene molecule, thus the distinct odor of moth balls as opposed to odorless asphalt. It was the original bitumen used in our industry, and its life expectancy is far superior than todays products. OSHA has made it very difficult for the roofers to apply this system, cause their regulations are based on the manufacture where workmen are subject to its fumes, 40hrs/week - 52 weeks/year; which hardly befits roofers exposures when used sporadically. Ironically, the premier spec of the local, state and federal governments was CTP that spanned 40 to 80 years.

Chewin on a chunk of asphalt I've done. Chewin on coal tar??? Dunno bout dat.

ROTFLMAO What a hoot whew!!!!!!!!!!!! Yeppers coal tar is used in a lot of application . Someone truly truly stupid and ignorant may not recognize. Next time anyone eats something with Blue dye you might want to reconsider . Ceptin a rat ... Blue No. 1and other colors used in foods have coal tar as one of its components. Because of the use of coal tar, many organizations and circles are speaking out and boycotting products using colors with coal tar because it is a carcinogenic in large quantities, known to cause tumors in rats. Of course if you swallow ah I'll leave that to your own imagination B) :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: B) Of course I didn't chew it like gum . It was more for the shock value . Just bite it and spit it out . On that note don't chew gum because it is petroleum based and you know how truly stupid it is to put petroleum in your mouth Need I go on ??? I hope you get my indirect not so subtle reference critical and disapproving insinuations. B) :laugh: :laugh: B) :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Well good morning to you too, Jed. rotfl

Never did work with pitch except for that Koppers hell in a can on rare occasions, but the guy I broke in with told me not to chew on asphalt because it would remove the dentine. That became one of those little anomalous studies I never pursued so I honestly couldn't say, but I can only imagine chewing on pitch would not be to my liking. Maybe you could put it in a relleno?

Jed: I thought I explained 10 plies of felt in previous post. Here goes again: applied 45# base sheet as vapor barrier in hot asphalt; installed tapered foamglas in hot;installed 2 plies of jute (fabric) in hot;spec called for 5ply of tarred felt (inasmuch 5 ply lines aren t shown on sheet) laid up 2ply then 3ply of tarred felts(15#/) in pitch, for a total of 10plies of felt/fabric by weight. Incidentally, these folks go first class; all metal work done w/ lead coated copper. Vaa: IMHO bitumens don t breathe for their perm rating is practically zero. The greatest detriment to BUR s is the UV, and the gravel surfacing isolates the bitumens. I was told many years ago that pitch undergoes cold flow from 40 degrees F on up, thus is self sealing for most of its life. It also resists water because of its tight aromatic molecular structure.

That is a good point Mike .The organics had holes in them vented inner plys I believe they were called . The gravel or marble did a lot of things . Kept a good ballast .Kept the sun off . Especially here DEEP DOWN IN FLORIDA WHERE THE SUN SHINES DAMN NEAR EVERY DAY when it would bubble with the gravel it would settle quickly with the weight of the gravel . I used to pick up CTP and chew it as a way of telling if it was really old CTP or asphalt. Grossed more than one building maintenance man or inspector on that kind of behaviour. Plus boost the immune system B) :laugh: :laugh: B)

Regarding coal tar pitch: when I first became acquainted w/ this material, its melting point was 120 degrees F: and when I retired 5 years ago I think it was rated @ 135 F. I am sure its physical properties were altered when the EPA in their infinite wisdom required manufacturers to reduce the sulfur content. In doing so, the finest waterproofing product available to our industry and in fact the world for milleniums was sacrificed on the altar of progress. Insofar as bitumen bubbles, this phenomenon was discussed at NRCA conventions, and I think it became most evident when involved w/ urethane insulations. Chris: I only knew Bob Linck - insofar as trade union stories, my Mama once told me "If you can t say good, don t say nuthin" - period.

Thanks CIAK, most appreciated.

Syd - S. Kane & Son, Inc. huh? Excellent reputation for sure. I actually think I did a project in NJ about 25 years ago with them/you. Are you still Philly based? I have a lot of union stories but know you got at least 1000 more that I would love to hear. Local 30 right? I did several projects with Ed Culbertson (Culbertson Company) and a few others up there. Dang, those guys were tough!

Chris You are a welcome personality here. Thanks from me . I have little experience form a commercial standpoint . I have many years of experience working with and personal relationship with engineers from roofing manufacturers. One of the answers I have discussed with them on the bubbles . It was being bandied about that it could be prevented or curtailed if a high quality primer was used .

JED - I think the big problem with CTP in the 90's was thinking they could use fiberglass felts rather than organic felts in the assembly. What OCF and Koppers found out was that the CTP softening point was low enough for the felt to actually migrate during the Summer months to the point that it actually became a 3/4 ply felt with no CTP. Adding to this problem was the use of asphalt coated fiberglass felts which also created some bonding issues. I also agree that the lack of producers of CTP increased the price and lessened the desire of roofers to install. Not to mention the hazard pay premium roofers had pay workers.

I also believe over the past decade, the overall quality of asphalt has degraded as well. It starts with the production of the crude from cheaper sources and the lack of tighter quality control in refining. As part of our inspections of BUR, we often take samples of installed products to help the contractor see what they are making and to assist in the placement of the assembly to make sure foot traffic is minimized, kettle and mop temperatures are maintained and to see how the bond is formed. Over the last several years, we see a major increase in the formation of air bubbles/pockets in the interply. We have had all the major players look at the samples where we have found this problem and actually conducted field testing as well. The bottom line is they all acknowledge the problem exists but no one has provided any answers. These air bubbles I believe will interconnect over time and create/promote membrane failure. We have heard excuses that it is oils/talc/moisture, you name it. I firmly believe it is related to the quality of the asphalt.

In regard to knowledge, I know I don't know everything but I do enjoy learning about roofing products. Does that make me a little sic in the head? I truly feel that the most important thing about my job is to put good contractors into a relationship with my clients. That is top of the list. After all, why does someone usually call someone like me to begin with. It is mostly because they know nothing about roofing and even less about roofing contractors. When spending the type of coin associated with roofing projects they don't want to be "sold" a roof based on affiliation with with a sometimes limited bias of the installer. So I think where we are best utilized is to try and develop a scope of work that fits the needs of the client (performance type specification), and then put the best 3 to 4 roofers in that specific assembly together for pricing (apples to apples bidding). A successful project to me is when the everyone is happy at the end, especially when the client boosts about the roofer. That is when I quietly slip out the door with a smile on my face.

On your next BUR installation, position yourself along the bleedout line parallel with the direction of the felt placement with the sun opposite you so you see a glare. If you look close enough, you will see very small bubbles that almost looks like glistening in appearance. Look closer and you will actually see bubbles releasing. Now imaging this being trapped in your interply. Not good, IMO.

Syd - That's the name. Does Goldhammer ring a bell? I think he had some part ownership before retiring. I seem to remember is nickname as "Goldie". Hell of a smart man. I knew his Son Lee for many years after they dropped the lincks part. The good ole days........Still can't conceive the 10-ply assembly you described. They don't build buildings like that very often. A monumental building with a monumental waterproofing assembly. Makes sense in a rather perverse way I guess. As commonly stated, "I would hate to have to reroof that"!

CrisB Company you referred to was Warren-Ehret, and Bob Lincks dad purchased it in the 60 or 70 s. If I can recall correctly, one of the original owners was a partner of Major Barrett (civil war) who was credited w/ the founding of tarred (pitch) felts and coal tar pitch systems. They were active in Phila.-Baltimore-DC. Insofar as the 10 ply installed at the Supreme Court, recalling after 34 years, applied 45# asphalt vapor barrier, tapered insulation PPG fiberglas, 2ply of glass fabric, 2 then 3 plies of pitch felts for a total of 10 plies of felt (by weight) and quarry tile finish on the patios. Our firm, in the business since 1903 was S. Kane & Son, Inc. (I believe the A/E speced fabric as a vermin deterrent.)

Welcome Chris! :cheer:

OS just reminded me of one. I need to find the pix. Ecostar roof going on. 12/12 toeboards only, nailed through the 'slates', pulled and caulked!