CIAK, general insurance question

It sounds like either way, it's insurable loss. That takes some of the sting out.

It seems to me that whoever suffered the loss is the party whose insurance will have to pay. When do the materials become the property owners? When they are delivered to the job? After they are installed? After final inspection? After the roof is paid for?>>>

I can tell you how the customer's insurance carrier is going to "see it". How many times have you ever heard of a new roof being "vandalized". In my 40 some years in construction, 23 in roofing, I've NEVER heard of it. I have heard of stealing equipment off a roof, like a generator or something, but just "vandalism"? Please........this had to be something personal and that's how their insurance company will look at it. I hope Mike has good insurance because he'll probably get the blame here, deserved or not. My experience with insurance carriers has not been that good but one of my friends here in Orlando has had great luck getting them to fix problem jobs. Hope it works out for 'ya Mike.......keep us posted.

JET>>>

One of the best posts on the site. I thought it would end with you and ur insurance fighting it out. You should not feel bad about filing a valid claim. They dont feel bad about sending ur bill out. Good to hear its off ur shoulders.>>>

Not unsocial at all.....

By the time I was made aware of the potential for the liability coverage being afforded to me, it was deemed an untimely claim and I would have once again had to incur great expense fighting with what was expected to be minimal chances of winning.

Here is something else that occurred. When finding yourself in a situation that your standard attorney can not handle, due to experience or location and a lack of desire to travel to the Downtown Chicago Court venue from our distant suburbs in the NW side, you must rely on a referral.

All of these referred attorneys sound fantastic when they are seeking their retainer, but as soon as the case becomes challenging, they request that you accept some undesirable plead outcome.

Now, do you continue with someone who wants out of your case, even though they are bound ethically to forge ahead?

To expedite you making a decision to either seek other counsel or accept a plead agreement, they decide to request substantial additional fees not previously discussed.

Now, go to attorney #2 and attorney #3, until you get tired of restarting the case without any sign of acceptable conclusions ahead.

One attorney even screwed up by missing a court appearance, which allowed the other party to enter a judgment against my company for $45,000.00.

Had my Bank President not notified me of what was going to occur at the close of business that day, all funds in my accounts would have disappeared.

I was able to get that judgment quashed, but in the mean time, I just wanted the case to be done and over, even with the payments that I had to make.

How many people know that their liability policy covers material defects and the associated fees to make the customer whole?

What was incredulous about that occasion to install the American Cemwood product, was that the home owner himself brought that product to the table, after seeing it at a home show, which we then pursued and got certified to install. The manufacturers rep was on hand throughout the entire installation, approving every detail we did.

Ed>>>

That is one of the things I have learned to like about you Ed your humble.That being said,......... here it comes. Maybe my unsocial relationship side raiseing it ugly shrouded head. It amazes me that all that money is left on the table when it could be had. I think it was Randy who is doing the same thing / I scratch my head in disbelief . My question WHY ??????>>>

It wasn't brilliance roaming the room, but a poor past experience on my part, where had I been advised in a timely manner, I would not have paid out of pocket $18,500.00 for a failed American Cemwood Roof Product back in or around 1993.

I learned several years later and in addition to the 18.5 K for material reimbursement, along with about $15,000.00 in legal fees out of pocket, that I did not have to encumber myself with any of those fees.

But, alas, when I was fully aware of my insurance companies duties and obligations, the time had expired for what they deemed to be a Timely Notification of the claim.

Surely I could have forged ahead, and possibly even gotten them to handle the claim, post mortem, but at what additional mental and financial costs.

So, it was a very valuable lesson learned, which I can say, I am glad to be able to pass on to others for their own good usage.

Ed>>>

Yeah Mike I thought ed was brilliant maybe he had a Guiness . egg had some great points. cool. I am one who prefers relationship. I'm not always as good at it as I think I could be.

>>>

Well, just returned from a very amicable meeting with the church, Bob P, and myself. After presenting the case described above, with a smooth, consistent and "helpful" delivery, they seemed to understand the different POV. I called my Cinci adjuster on speaker phone, and asked her "waddawedoo". She said that both parties should submit a claim and that she would be in touch with the aduster from the church's carrier, and they would straighten it out between themselves.

I've been with Cinci for over 20 years. Our relationship is very good. Twice I have taken seriously competitive bids, and told them I was doing it. Once was just this past month. We got a real good quote from an agent representing Motorist Insurance. My GM and I talked after reviewing his proposal, talked all the pro's and con's, then we placed a value on our current relationship and the ease of working with both Cinci and our agent who also does a great job.

When our current agent came over, I took our policy book, turned to the back page, and wrote down a number, not allowing him to see it. I said "Kyle, I just wrote down the number that you need to hit. I am writing it ahead of time, so that you don't think I'm jerking your chain either way. This number is a certain percentage above a proposale received from XXX agency and Motorist Ins. that represents what we feel is a fair value for our relationship and the quality of response we have always had from Cinci.

He went through his proposal, we got to the last page, I saw his number, reached across the table and said "Congratulations" as i opened the book with my hand written number. He beat it by $1,005.00

When we were done, he was happy, I was happy, the competing agency may not have been happy, but he was treated fairly and I think will gladly quote us again.

Relationships go a long way with me. I think this is going to turn out just fine. I appreciate all the comments, and it looks like Ed just nailed it. Although I have no problem turning in a legitimate claim to insurance. Over the last 20 years, I've been a very profitable account for Cinci.>>>

Good point Mac , I wait in anticipation for Mike return. I suspect he will come back with a stall from the other side a delay. Thanks Mike for posting this . It gets a dialogue going if we can keep it on track. Ed man you got some smarts . egg nice reply, jet if we can get you off the slander it would be great I know you have some good ideas and smart. It is just your " bedside manner " that is full of splinters.>>>

....good case in point relating to any "additinally insured" demands a client may make>>>

You've got a problem that no "contract language" will get you out of, believe me. You've got a customer who "thinks" you're at fault here and that's all it takes. Get ready to either do another roof (at your expense) or hand it over to the lawyers. What you have to decide is the cost (which is cheaper in the long run). Sorry to hear of another slimey insurance carrier passing the buck. They sure don't do that when it comes to premium time ;) ;)

JET>>>

Good replies Ed egg, I'm not a lawyer by a long shot. I can help most times for property claims and keeping things moving . That was a little outside my expertise.>>>

Good take on it. Especially since the consequences of 'bad faith' are a real risk to the carrier who refuses to help.

Additionally, I have been told by reliable sources that there is a whole subset of the legal profession that deals exclusively with the interpretation of coverage issues and it is a very contentious one, even among the specialists. Unless the claim is very large, the interested parties would probably prefer to avoid that expense, along with discovery and forensics.

If it were somebody else, Cincinatti might tell the contractor to take a hike, but a would bet money that they will assist Mike in negotiating this. Who knows though. These things can get wierd.>>>

Mike,

In my opinion, and that is all it is, I feel that both parties need to submit the matter to their insurance providers and let them duke it out via subrogation.

You may not have the desire to turn in a claim that you feel you have no liability for, but if you do not file a "Timely Claim", there is probably language in your own policy that would exclude your company from any potential liability coverage.

In the long run, let them and their legal department fight your fight for you, as they are responsible to supplying you with competent Counsel on your behalf and in your best interests.

Although that legal representation is paid for by your insurance company, it is their legal responsibility to place your company's best interests above any other party, including the insurance provider you have.

Ed

>>>

I think it probably reads something like this:

[size=2] IN NO EVENT SHALL CONTRACTOR BE LIABLE FOR... OR OBLIGATED IN ANY MANNER FOR... SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, OR INDIRECT DAMAGES... INCLUDING (BY WAY OF EXAMPLE BUT NOT BY WAY OF LIMITATION) SUCH DAMAGES AS LOSS OF USE, LOSS OF PROFITS, OR SUITS BY THIRD PARTIES

WHETHER OCCASIONED BY A BREACH OF WARRANTY CONTAINED IN THIS AGREEMENT

OR BY ANY OTHER CAUSE

(???) WHETHER BASED UPON OR SOUNDING IN CONTRACT TORT NEGLIGENCE STRICT LIABILITY (???)

WILLFUL AND WANTON CONDUCT

WARRANTY ( EXPRESS OR IMPLIED)

OR OTHERWISE ARISING OUT OF OR RELATING TO THE WORK AND SERVICES PERFORMED UNDER THIS AGREEMENT (or other agreements) [/size]>>>