Women in Metal Construction LIVE at METALCON! - PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Kelli Nolden with DoneRite Home Maintenance and Michelle Kettering with LTD Exteriors. You can read the interview below, listen to the podcast or watch the webinar.

John Sheridan: Been training for about 20 years. I was lucky enough to run into Michelle about five years ago when I was training her husband, Chris. And back then we started to talk about... National Women and Roofing was just getting going. And we were talking about five years ago, getting a training set up that's an all women training so that we can bring more women into the business and have them not be intimidated by the physical end of the business. Most companies have women involved in the business, but it's all on the management end. But there's really no reason why women can't be involved in the actual installation end of things.

So that started the conversation with Michelle. Last year, maybe a year and a half ago, last summer, I did a training in Mesa, Arizona with Nicole Pinto, who couldn't make it here because of COVID. But she went through a three-day class and was able to go to her place in Seattle, installed her own roof with a little bit of help back and forth, communication back and forth with me. Pretty impressive. So Kelli, I met through her husband, Chuck. Again, I trained him several years ago. He's come to several trainings. We were actually on a project in The Bahamas together last year...

Kelli Nolden: Two years ago.

John Sheridan: Two years ago. Big, huge project. And Kelli was on the roof helping us through the whole project, so...

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That's excellent. Excellent. And Sheridan, on resources, you're doing training all over, but you also have Sheridan Tools, right?

John Sheridan: Right. So, we also sell tools to supplement the trainings. And we know the tools. If there's a tool in my booth, we've used it. And everybody in my booth is pretty much familiar with what we're using.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And we're going to get to that, the booth because you're going to love this, it's very good. So Kelli, can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your company?

Kelli Nolden: I'm Kelli Nolden. I'm from Wisconsin. And my husband and I have a business called Done Right Home Maintenance. We're mainly roofing, small construction. We've downsized and it's just him and I. So we do what we can.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: So it's fun. It's nice. You and Chuck. It's cool. And we have the same thing over here, but Michelle, can you introduce yourself and your company?

Michelle Kettering: Yeah, Michelle Kettering, LTD Exteriors. We are based out of North Carolina. My husband and I specialize in slate and tile roofs. We've been in industry... I've been in the industry off and on over 20 years. I got started with my brother-in-law, Kurt Kettering. He started his company and he said, "Hey, I need some help. Can you come help me?" And I started, I had my own goals, wanted to venture out to the corporate world, and the roofing industry kept pulling me back in. Fast-forward to seven years ago, my husband encouraged me to start my own business and start my own roofing company. And so we did, and here we are. My capacity with metal is I work with a lot of copper and I make my own pipe boots and solder stuff. So it's just...

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Very cool.

Michelle Kettering: ... What we do.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Okay. And Michelle, you have to tell everybody what does LTD stand for?

Michelle Kettering: It stands for Living the Dream.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I love that. I love that name. I love it. It's so awesome. So as you can see, the topic here today is really women in metal construction and how that is growing and really starting to five years now. Look what you have today, and we have a long way to go still, but let's talk a little bit about how both of you, Michelle and Kelli, I know they're a little bit different stories, but how you first got introduced to metal training. So how did you meet John?

Michelle Kettering: So as he mentioned, my husband was doing a training with John, and we went to dinner afterwards and we started the discussion. I was very interested when my husband said what had gone on in the training. I thought, "Well, I need to do this training. This sounds like fun." And so then John and I discussed training and things of that sort and bringing women in, and it was really exciting to talk to John about it because he was very intrigued by bringing women in. He wanted to actually do something to make it happen.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yes.

Michelle Kettering: So, that's where the conversation started and it's just kept on.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Well, I had this similar experience when I met John. We started talking and he was like, within the first five minutes, he's like, "Okay, so I know you're involved with this National Women and Roofing thing, but we need to get women doing metal and National Women roofing. How are we going to do this, Heidi?" So we're working on it. We're still, it's happening.

John Sheridan: It's way better than it was.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: It's happening.

John Sheridan: So, we're way closer than we were back in the day when we first started. And National Women and Roofing is too. They've grown exponentially over the last five years.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: We're going to be ready to start bringing some of those demos, your demos, which we're going to talk about here in a minute to National Roofing Day, hopefully not this year, but the next. Kelli, how did you, and I know through Chuck, but give us your story of getting on the roof, starting working with metal and in your business through the trainings with John.

Kelli Nolden: I have been working with Chuck for quite a few years. We were basically doing the stone coated steel shingles, and when Chuck wanted to go to this roofing, it's like, "Wow, it's the middle of winter. We don't have anything going. Go." And he kept in touch with John, and when that fell into place for him to go to The Bahamas, I said, "I'll go." So, we went to The Bahamas for a month and worked with John.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That's awesome.

Kelli Nolden: It was cool. It was cool.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Trial by fire.

John Sheridan: It was the opposite. It was like cracking the whip. I mean, we did good. We did really good and we were shorthanded the whole time. So, Kelli was a huge help and couldn't have done it without her. I mean, it was really good experience.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And John, you've created really this network of trainers across the country and it seems like once you train, you go in and train and then you bring them into your circle. And so you have Moises and Chuck. I mean a lot of these... Michelle, people are training. Kelli are training for you too. So tell about that. It seems like you're really doing an amazing thing with Train the Trainer.

John Sheridan: So again, that's still developing, but trying to expand the network, trying to be as inclusive as possible. So, up until a couple of years ago, I didn't do a Spanish class. We just started doing Spanish classes two years ago, and I should have done it 10 years ago because I've always had Spanish-speaking people in my classes and I can always get my message across, but it's so much different if somebody speaks the language. So, that the message gets across so much better first thing. The second thing is, I always try to keep in touch with people after a training. So, if they need help after the training that I can give them help. I couldn't do that with the Spanish students.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: True.

John Sheridan: You know what I mean? So, I have Moises now. If anybody has a question, I can refer them to him, he can talk them through it. So it's very important. To me, nobody becomes an expert in a two or three-day training, but if you follow up with them and can answer some basic questions, then they can get through it. And once they get through the first couple of jobs, they're good, they're good to go.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: But they have this full network to always rely to come back to, which makes a huge difference. So, if we're looking at... Sorry, early morning. If we're looking at some of the... And I'm not going to say challenges, but just the experience of actually starting to get in there to doing metal on the roof to, I know you're talking about how much copper, what was that experience, Michelle, when you started going... Because you're running the office, you're CEO of your company, and now you're out on the roof, which I know you've been and you were out there all the time, but now you're out there and you're forming and doing your metal and stuff like that. What were some of the challenges for you as a business owner and then also as really a woman on the roof?

Michelle Kettering: I didn't know the machinery, I didn't know the equipment. It was something completely new to me. It was intimidating. But having the support and people like John that they take that intimidation factor out of it for you, they walk you through it. That was the initial part where it was very intimidating. Once you let loose and you know how to do it's exciting. You're doing something to put things together. You're contributing to a whole roofing system. So it's just... My big issue is I want to be out in the field all the time. As you mentioned, I'm CEO of my company, so I can't be out there all the time.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: So you're like, "Hold off on the copper, I'll be there tomorrow. Don't anyone touch my stuff."

Michelle Kettering: I actually have a story. I was doing a walkthrough on a job with one of our customers and Christian pulled up and he says, "Hey, date night tonight?" And I'm thinking, "I'm in the middle of a walkthrough with a customer." And he goes, "No, no, no, we have to go make copper pipe boots tonight." Date night consisted of being in the shop, making our pipe boots.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Okay, that's classic. I love it. I love it. So Kelli, the same question. You guys have your own company. You've been doing stone coated steel, so you've been doing metal roofs for a long time. Talk a little bit about how you all got into stone coated steel and the metal roofs, but then also when you did go to The Bahamas, what was that learning curve like?

Kelli Nolden: Basically the first day, John and I basically set out the tools and he explained tools to me the first half of the day. And we were supposed to be resting the first day, but yeah. The next...

John Sheridan: You didn't realize you were with me.

Kelli Nolden: No rest.

John Sheridan: That was the end of that. Yeah.

Kelli Nolden: The next morning he showed me how to run the panels, how to do the ends, how to do this, that, and I had everything. By the time we were done, I had the panels already for them to just... Handed them up. I ran the panels, did all the end work.

John Sheridan: It was huge. So all the work that we were doing on the ground, Kelli took over.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That's awesome.

John Sheridan: And we were able to hit it on the roof and it was constant. She had everything lined up and coming at us. It was perfect.

Kelli Nolden: So yeah, it was a learning curve.

John Sheridan: Learning curve.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Now are you in your own business? Are you doing more standing seam or more metal forming or are... Where are you with that?

Kelli Nolden: We're doing a little bit of everything. So, yeah, it's cool.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That's awesome. Okay, so as we're... We answered one of these questions already I want to talk about for your businesses really, as you're looking at it, you're doing tile and slate with the copper and stuff. What are your thoughts going forward? Are you going to bring more metal in? Are you looking at doing more metal?

Michelle Kettering: Yes.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: So talk a little bit about that and how it's differentiating your business.

Michelle Kettering: Well, we've been so specialized for so long and we've enjoyed that, but we've also limited ourselves quite a bit with our clientele. So we want to offer other options to our customers that still have the longevity of a tile and slate roof, but without all of the costs and the maintenance and things of that sort. So, metal is something that we're definitely looking into incorporating, which is part of the reason why we started attending the metal cons so that we could familiarize ourself with what's out there, what machines, what tools.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: What are you seeing so far? I know you've been working in the booth doing demos the whole time. We're going to talk about that in a minute, but...

Michelle Kettering: So far I've seen our booth.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: So you're looking forward to seeing what's out there. And I know you saw some different products in the booth too.

Michelle Kettering: So, the Diamond products.

John Sheridan: Very cool, yeah.

Michelle Kettering: We actually installed those yesterday on our mockup and they look really nice. We left it up last night. We came in this morning and it was, "Whoa. That looks really nice."

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, it looks really pretty.

Michelle Kettering: Yeah.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I love it. I love it. And what are you looking for, Kelli, future-wise with metal in your business?

Kelli Nolden: Actually, as Chuck and I are getting older, we're thinking of maybe just transitioning more to teaching and getting that going.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: So, that's perfect and for you to be able to teach. And that was one of the things, really what you're doing, John, is trying to grow this network of trainers. And

John Sheridan: The cool thing about where people are located geographically is that some systems are dominant in some places. So Wisconsin, it's a metal shingle dominant. North Carolina may be standing seam dominates. Florida's a little different, Florida maybe the book West kind of products are hot right now and everything has to meet Miami mandate. So, the people that are with me geographically know the systems in their areas and are best suited to train those systems. So that's my vision of putting all these people together, let them do their thing in their locations, because they know it better than anybody.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That makes so much sense. I love it. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about what we're doing with the demo area. So John, you and I, we were like, "We need to get this training out there more." And so of course I volunteered John to do that.

John Sheridan: No pressure.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: No pressure. But we now have, there is a training zone on the Metalcon floor. So if you're watching this from Metalcon, go over to the demo area, check out the booth, it's training zone, you'll see it. Big signs. But talk a little bit about your inspiration. I mean, once, of course you were volunteered, but your inspiration for the booth and what's over there, John, right now for people to see?

John Sheridan: Well, my inspiration for the booth was that Sherwin-Williams sponsored it.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yes, that's so nice of Sherwin-Williams.

John Sheridan: That opened us up to all of the Sherwin-Williams manufacturers. So, once they decided to sponsor the booth, we have all those manufacturers that want to show their products at the booth.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah.

John Sheridan: Okay. So that was one part of it. I wanted to get as many different profiles with Sherwin-Williams products, painted products on them. So we have eight systems, I think from Sherwin-Williams that are associated with Sherwin-Williams. I also wanted to show the tools because I have a lot of tools that don't really lend themselves to stamp shingles or to the diamonds, but they do lend themselves to double fold European kind of style technology. So, the one end mockup is all tricky detailing with tricky tools.

So, that allows me to show tools also in the booth. So we have everything covered. We have all the entry level systems. It's set up, entry level, intermediate, and then expert. And anybody can come in and ask any questions in English or Spanish if they're interested in a training. I have a questionnaire. What kind of training are you interested in? What kind of products? Where you're located? Spanish, English, all women we're trying to set up an all women training in Mesa, Arizona.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Awesome. Yeah, we'll be promoting that. All the trainings. All the trainings are promoted on Metal Coffee Shop, which is also sponsored by Sherwin-Williams. Thank you, Sherwin-Williams. And so Kelli, I thought you guys were just working crazy over there to set up and do everything. What's your thoughts on this training zone and how did yesterday go? The first day with you doing the demos with Michelle? What kind of responses were you getting?

Kelli Nolden: I think they were pretty good. I was surprised. I was leery. I didn't know how they would respond to talking to women about stuff, but it turned out pretty good. So, I think it was good. I think it was good.

John Sheridan: I think we had really good crowds, a lot of people.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Did you have any women come up and ask about...

Kelli Nolden: Actually we did. Yeah. We had some that come in and thought it was nice that we were there because they had women on their crew that were very good. They were excellent workers.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Once you see it, then everybody wants to share that story and everybody wants to bring it together. What do you think of the training zone?

Michelle Kettering: I think it's great. The whole point of it is to allow people to walk in and touch the tools, get familiarized with it. Again, take some of that intimidation factor out of things. And it also gives the opportunity to display different types of installations that you can do.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Right. And you saw as you were answering questions, I mean to go from being a trainer, being trained, I guess is the word, and then now training others and demoing and answering questions. How was that transition for you?

Michelle Kettering: That was interesting. I think I speak for both Kelli and I. We felt a little out of our element to begin with because we still feel like we're still learning...

Kelli Nolden: Being trained.

Michelle Kettering: We're still being trained.

John Sheridan: And it's a casual kind of atmosphere. Michelle keeps calling me the sham wow guy, but it's not like that. I'm not in front of a crowd trying to sell frying pans. We invite people in, and we try and let them participate in a laid back atmosphere. So it's real casual.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That's awesome. Well, and as I'm really thinking about this chance of, I truly believe when anybody, someone who's speaking Spanish has someone speaking Spanish, helping in the training, it works for when you see other women doing it. You know, "Okay, I can do it too." But as we're talking about skilled labor in the next generation, I know Michelle, that you hire a lot of Gen Zs and you definitely have been a leader on that since I first knew you, we talked about that. How do you see getting women, more young women interested in the trades and specifically into roofing and metal roofing?

Michelle Kettering: So, that has been the challenge, getting the word out that this is something that women can do, especially young women. So, that has been quite a bit of a challenge that we're trying to figure out how do we get to the people that we want to train, but...

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And so what are some of the things you've done to... And I know they come and go, I know hiring's hard, but what are some of the things that you are doing to get both men and women, but that younger generation, you were just saying you were training what, 20 new interns or something like that when you were on a call with us?

Michelle Kettering: Yeah.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. So, what are some of the things that you're doing there?

Michelle Kettering: Well, we try to hire inexperienced people specifically so that we can introduce them to it. Early on, you realize whether they're interested, whether they're fit for it. And so we try to go to schools. Some of our community colleges in the area, they have recently partnered up with construction companies to start these training programs.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Awesome.

Michelle Kettering: And I'm hoping to be able to do something with John here that we can get into the community colleges as well and partner up so that we can get to a larger market.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: The trainings are already there and then now you have people coming out of school looking for jobs. "Oh, there you are," is the thing. So now, and as you're looking at, you and Chuck are going into wanting to be more full-time trainers and stuff. What are some of the things that you think are important, Kelli? As in to getting more, and I'm going to stick with the women, but getting more women involved and definitely younger women.

Kelli Nolden: I think just getting them the training that they could use, that they could advance with.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And really letting them know that they can do it.

Kelli Nolden: They can do it. Yeah.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I think a lot of young women are told, "No, you can't do that." Right? That you can't...

John Sheridan: Now your one daughter's a welder, right?

Kelli Nolden: Yes.

John Sheridan: The other one just joined the fire department.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Well, I love it.

Kelli Nolden: Actually two of them are in the fire department.

John Sheridan: Two are in the fire department. So, if you take away that intimidation factor, there's no reason why you can't do it.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: It makes total sense. Okay. So let's talk a little bit about future trainings, John. Let's talk about what's the future. First, let's talk a little bit about Meadowview, because Meadowview, you're doing a lot of trainings there and you're bringing your training crew there. What's happening?

John Sheridan: So, Meadowview in conjunction with Grosso University, I'm doing a film session in three weeks in Chicago with Grosso University, and I'm going to bring my own photographer in. We're going to film for three days and we're going to break that down into 20 segments. They're going to go on Grosso University, anybody that looks up Meadowview and Grosso University, we'll have access to those 20 roofing segments.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah.

John Sheridan: Okay. So, that's...

Heidi J. Ellsworth: ... On Metal Coffee Shop too.

John Sheridan: Yeah.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, exactly.

John Sheridan: You can come.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah.

John Sheridan: Megan.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: There you go. Megan.

John Sheridan: Talking to you, Megan. So that's the official start of the Meadowview push from our end, the training end. So that's one thing. National Women in Roofing, we're trying to get our first training set up in Mesa, Arizona or Burlington, North Carolina, which might be better for you.

Kelli Nolden: I travel well.

John Sheridan: Yeah, so do I. So Allentown, PA, Mesa, Arizona, Burlington, North Carolina, Chicago. Any one of those locations we can set up a training. So, we're working on that.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And so if we have people watching this, which we will, a lot of people, how do they get a hold of you to start setting up those trainings?

John Sheridan: I'm going to dump that on Michelle. Okay.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Michelle, how do they get a hold of?

Michelle Kettering: Well, you can go to sheridantools.com and you will find John's contact information. I can also be reached via email at Mkettering@ltdexteriors.com. And if you just let us know what you're interested in training in, like John said, there's a questionnaire, we can set something up.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That's great. You can also go to Metal Coffee Shop and we're going to have that on the Sheridan directory also. And we'll have a signup form.

John Sheridan: National Women in Roofing.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: National Women in Roofing we're working with. Yes. And so we are going to work with them, but right now we're just bringing National Women in Roofing is definitely supporting and promoting. They're here at Metalcon. We've got all kinds of good swag and stuff, but we also are just trying to really start this from the grassroots.

John Sheridan: And it all circles back to you. It all circles back to Metal Coffee Shop.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah.

John Sheridan: Because all of that information is available there. That's the hub. That's the hub that reaches out there.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: All those and all of those there. And we can get you signed up on Metal Coffee Shop or just reach out to us and to Michelle. To John, to Kelli. You'll find us. And we want to start putting these together. And of course we'll start advertising them too as they get put together. So, okay. Last thoughts about women and getting more women involved in the metal construction, roofing, siding, just overall metal construction world. John, just some of your thoughts on why should women be getting involved?

John Sheridan: More familiar with the business, for one thing. If you're locked in an office and all you do is paperwork and you're trying to run a metal business and you're not familiar with what's happening in the field, you know how that is. So the more familiar you are with what you're actually doing, the better handle you have on running the company or being a part of the company and being a functional part of the company, not just overhead.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That is such a great point. And I know Michelle, you go to a lot of trainings even outside of metal. I'm trying to remember the last, you were telling me you were a training and getting certified, but you had all kinds of certifications.

Michelle Kettering: We were certified in lead-based paint renovations and... Oh, what other certifications do we have?

John Sheridan: [inaudible 00:25:11].

Heidi J. Ellsworth: [inaudible 00:25:11]. That's the one that you were talking about.

Michelle Kettering: And like John said, you get these trainings and you have that connection between what's going out in the field and what you have going on on paper and it just makes you a stronger business.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, stronger. And you know what's the whole nine yards.

Michelle Kettering: Right.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And Kelli, I mean kind of the same thing.

Kelli Nolden: Yeah,

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That's what you've been seeing. I mean, as you guys have had your business, I am really inspired you and Chuck running this business together, the two of you and now going into training. What would you say to other wives, and I am just going to put this out there. My mom and dad were general contractors and it was always my dad's business. It was never mom's, right? But mom did tons of stuff there. And so as you're reaching out to more women to get involved, to get trained to be that part of it, what would you say?

Kelli Nolden: I don't know. Take every opportunity you can. And I guess don't throw them off the roof when you have the opportunity.

John Sheridan: Be patient.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I love it.

Kelli Nolden: Be patient and raise your hand when there's a Bahamas trip. Well, like Michelle said yesterday is we as women, we're thinking things through differently and you have to go about saying, "What are you doing?" A little more gently than... But it's all good. It's there.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: It's a balance too.

John Sheridan: I mean, 20 years, I've probably had 10 women in my classes, so it hasn't been a lot. But the cool thing about that is they come in with no preconceptions. They come in, they're a clean slate. They haven't developed any bad habits and they're willing to learn. And they've been some of the best students I've had. Nicole...

Kelli Nolden: We ask a lot of questions.

John Sheridan: You know what I mean?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: A lot of questions.

John Sheridan: Yeah, a lot of questions. But they're all good questions. They didn't work for somebody that was a bad contractor and then come in and know everything.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Right.

John Sheridan: It's just...

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That's cool. That's why you want to do it. You want to make your job easier.

John Sheridan: Yeah. Yeah, you finally got it.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I got it. Okay. Light bulb.

Michelle Kettering: Well, to add to that, it's an opportunity for women to make a very good income in this industry that they otherwise would not have the opportunity without going to college or having some kind of education. This can allow maybe a single mom that is newly divorced or separated to get out there and make her own path. So for me, that's my drive to get women in here, give them that independence.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I love it. That's so true. We talk about that so much. Well, I just want to say thank you. I'm as always inspired by all of you and thank you so much. I know you were all like, "Heidi, what are you talking about? Doing this at this show." But this has been a true conversation, a true talk, and we're going to be getting some video over from the demo area today. Megan's going to be over there, so we'll be able to also show that with this segment as we produce it after the show. So you'll be able to see these ladies and John as they are demoing and making it all happen over at the training center or training zone. So thank you, thank you, thank you.

Michelle Kettering: Thank you, Heidi.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Thank you.

John Sheridan: Thanks, Heidi.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And thank all of you for watching this MetalTalk. By the way, MetalTalk is an award winner here at Metalcon and yeah, and we are going for People's Choice. So if you're watching this, please go onto Metalcon, either the app or the website and vote for us for the People's Choice Award. So I want to make sure you guys all vote. So, okay.

John Sheridan: As long as you vote for us for Best In Show.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: You got it. Best In Show, no problem. The training zone, is it...

John Sheridan: Like a cocker spaniel. Yeah.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I love it. We'll be back and we will be on all kinds of interviews today, live coverage from the show. Thank you so much for being here, and we'll see you next time on the Next Metal...