Shifts in the industry mean bur is back - PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Josh Willey of United Asphalts. You can read the interview below or listen to the podcast.

Intro: Welcome to Roofing Road Trips, the podcast that takes you on a thrilling journey across the world of roofing. From fascinating interviews with roofing experts to on-the-road adventures, we'll uncover the stories, innovations and challenges that shape the rooftops over our heads. So fasten your seat belts and join us as we embark on this exciting Roofing Road Trip.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Hello, and welcome to another Roofing Road trips from RoofersCoffeeShop. My name is Heidi Ellsworth. And in this episode we're going to look back and look forward all at the same time because we're going to be talking about really the shifts in the industry around built-up roofing and asphalt. I started my career out with built-up roofing and a lot of asphalt. And you know what? Today, through technology and through redundancy and through durability, we're seeing that same type of growth happening again with this solid system.

So we reached out to our friends at United Asphalts to say, hey, let's talk about asphalt and built-up roofing. Josh Willey is here today. Josh, welcome to the show.

Josh Willey: Heidi, nice to talk to you as always. I listen to the pod as much as I can, so I'm flattered to have been invited.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Thank you. Makes me always so happy when I hear people are listening and enjoying our conversations. And these are fun conversations, I'm always so interested. And I realize it's not everybody in the world is interested in roofing, but we all are. So there you go.

Okay, so let's start with an introduction. If you could introduce yourself and tell us what you do with United Asphalts.

Josh Willey: Yeah, my name is Josh Willey. I'm the sales and marketing manager at United Asphalts. I've been with the company a little over five years, and I work at the corporate office in Commerce City, Colorado, which is barely northeast of Downtown Denver. I oversee our international sales division and have the pleasure of helping market our brand, go to trade shows every so often and work with people like RoofersCoffeeShop to get the message out about United Asphalts.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Okay. Let's share, what is that message, but tell us just a little bit about the history and who United Asphalts is.

Josh Willey: Yeah. We started doing what we do way back in 1961 and still operate from the same location. We produce oxidized asphalts for built-up roofing, polymer-modified asphalts for built-up roofing. We sell cant strip and tapered edge, and our products are pretty well known in the industry.

We're an approved component for really every major manufacturer of built-up roofing systems in the industry, and our stuff is available at really every major distributor of roofing materials in the country. And we pride ourselves on innovation here and are looking to continue that with asphalt. Advancing asphalt is one of our mottoes. That's what we continue to try to do through today's roofing market.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That's excellent. And there's been a lot of changes in the keg asphalt business. Not everybody is aware, but Valero has exited the business. What do you see as the impact of that exit on the landscape of our industry overall?

Josh Willey: Yeah, that's a pretty big deal for keg asphalt manufacturers. Valero is I think the largest independent refiner of crude in the world, and as such they obviously have access to a huge quantity of asphalt flux, which can be modified to do so many things within the roofing industry. And so their decision to not use that resource that they have to sell as keg asphalt is really a big deal. And I can't speak to their motivations there, but there's a lot of large-scale infrastructure projects going on in our country and sometimes those are the motivators to spur a company like Valero to maybe move that resource into something else.

So it really does leave a significant void in product inventory, particularly in the Gulf Coast area. Valero, they started in Corpus Christi and have had a pretty big footprint in that part of the country as far as providing keg asphalt for BUR. So their exit from that business is pretty significant.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And with that exit really United Asphalts already is so ... You are such a trusted source within the roofing industry. So how do you see demand and supply and everything, how's that looking?

Josh Willey: Yeah. Demand is definitely up, and there's a lot of reasons for that that I'm sure we'll talk about out. That Valero leaving is certainly one of the big ones, but there's a lot of spec that has been moved back to built-up in the industry and a lot of schoolwork and data center work is moving in that direction. And so demand is way up.

Where we're located is right next to the Suncor refinery in Commerce City, Colorado. So we have a great source for our materials right next to us. And we haven't had any issues getting raw materials like what was happening during the pandemic when refineries weren't making jet fuel, and so by that function there was no asphalt. We're not dealing with those types of issues right now, so we are able to produce as much product as we want and that's exactly what we're doing right now.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That's so great. And I would love to go in just a little bit deeper on what you just said because insurance companies are making changes, government regulations, the whole really focus on the environment and trying to create less for the landfills, less debris for landfills, has really started changing, like you said, the specs. And I think even beyond the architectural specs, we're seeing it with what building owners are asking for.

What are you seeing around insurance mandates, regulations, this whole thing of really going from single-ply that tends to be replaced every seven to 14 years, to now the redundancy and the longevity of built-up roofing systems?

Josh Willey: Yeah. Well, Heidi, as a loyal listener of the pod, I know that extreme weather is a frequent topic of course and that's really the driver here. School roofing projects, for example, have long been a cornerstone of the built-up roofing market. And like everything else, they're subject to specifiers. And for a number of reasons over the years, sometimes those specs have been changed to single-ply. And in places like Texas, the Dallas area is one of our biggest markets. That was always really firm built-up markets as far as the specs were for schools.

And in certain school districts that had changed and a lot of those had gone single-ply. And obviously with the proliferation of severe weather events and particularly in that part of the country, I think there's been enough instances of some TPO and other single-ply systems not hitting the mark, not making it through those extreme weather events. And due to that, we are definitely seeing some of the insurance mandating the spec go back to built-up because they do have data on the reliability of the systems.

And so that's been a big player. That's a very specific example I can give you is that market in particular, they're really pushing this back back to built-up. And I think that's the right decision for an area like that.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. When you're getting hit by golf-sized, baseball-sized hail, you need to have systems that can really handle that.

When you're looking at the built-up roofing systems with the asphalt, and you do a lot of great things with modified Asphalt, the SBS, which obviously gives it a lot more bounce, I don't know if that's the right way to say it, but it's kind of how it works in those. So what are you seeing with some of the advantages of this, the BUR roofs, on that in terms of that security and longevity? I know we talked a little bit about it.

And I'm really interested in the contractors who are out there who are really starting to see how essential this is going to be for data centers. I mean, hospitals and schools have always been something, but now when you're looking at all those data centers, what are you hearing around that and how are the contractors really working with those owners and facility managers?

Josh Willey: The advantages of built-up, certainly as you know, asphalt built-up roofs are as old as commercial roofing itself. And so the only way a technology can maintain such a lengthy stay in the realm of relevance is by being, number one, reliable, number two, maintainable and number three, highly adaptable. And BUR is all of those things. And obviously just the redundant nature of the system itself, the multi-layered, monolithic membrane that BUR creates, it's very robust. And because of that, it's also highly maintainable. And those are things that contractors like. That extra backup to stop water intrusions into the building is one of the most important elements of a built-up roof system.

And if you're talking about data centers, the proliferation of AI and how our digital footprint just continues to grow and grow, that is extremely important with facilities like that that have such sensitive equipment inside. And they're really big facilities, and those jobs go to contractors who are able to really guarantee the security of the system. And so because of that, the built-up is a really good option for doing that.

And you mentioned the polymer-modified with its bounce, yes, that impact resistance is a really important element to these systems. That's how you go about getting a built-up roof that can offer a Class 4 hail rating. So for these newer, larger facilities, the integrity of the roof is so important that that's where a lot of those systems are going and the ability of the contractor to guarantee that is really important.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I bet, Josh, there are a number of listeners out there right now who maybe have never been involved with the built-up roof. They're all residential or they've just done single plies. Because it is one of those things, like I said, when I first started in the industry it had a much higher market share and now that market share is growing again.

So for contractors out there who want to look at this as a solution and get more involved with these higher security buildings, what do you recommend? What are some of your tips and tricks on getting them ... Do you go buy a kettle? What are some of the things that they need to be thinking about?

Josh Willey: Yeah. Obviously the equipment is very important. Finding crews who are able to do that work is a common refrain we hear from contractors now. I would say if you have a workforce that can do that work as a commercial roofing contractor, you should really try to be in it because these jobs are big jobs. They're big dollar jobs. And if you have any workforce that's able that knows how to install a built-up roof and you're not doing it, you're probably selling yourself short a little bit.

But beyond that, if you're not and you don't have experienced workers, then training is really the important factor there. And there are resources out there to have your crews learn how to install built-up. I can't tell you specifically market to market what those are, but there are definitely training centers out there that have good programs for built-up.
And so if you're looking to get into it, the labor portion of it is extremely important. So making sure you have people who can competently install the system is where I would start.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. And like you said, you work with all the major manufacturers, so they can ... the manufacturer training. But I also would point out on the Asphalt Roofing Manufacturers Association, ARMA, has a lot of information that way too, which is important.

One of the things that I've loved, and you said this at the very beginning, is really your focus on innovation and technology. And sometimes it's the littlest things that I think are kind of the coolest, and that is a couple of years ago you came out with new packaging that made it so much easier. So tell everybody a little bit about that, because I think people still have this image of big kettles, a lot of heavy lifting, everything, a lot of waste. Share with everyone what you've done there.

Josh Willey: Yeah. The packaging piece is actually a really important part of our story and the innovation that we chase, like I mentioned at the beginning when we started. People who are involved in the built-up roofing world are used to seeing the big, heavy 100-pound kegs that you have to chop to get in your kettle and they're super heavy.
And so we, several years ago, before I even started with United Asphalt, decided we wanted to do something for the crews. And so we came out with a 50-pound baby keg. And the contractors that use those, they absolutely love them, they will save your back over the course of a long workday. There's obviously less chopping involved. And so it just really lessened some of the work-related stress on the crew

And we kind of wanted to take that to the next level. And so we came out with what we call our FastPack box. But there's lots of information about the FastPack on our RoofersCoffeeShop profile page. It's a really innovative design. It's a specially lined cardboard box. It's 100% recyclable. It's a nice square shape. And the container is designed to open super quick and easy and fold flat. And the shape of it makes the asphalt inside a lot easier to handle. It's not round, it's not slippery, it has some edges you can grab onto.

So most of the time, depending on what type of kettle a contractor is using, you can pop that box open, pick that whole chunk up, carefully drop it right into your kettle. You're not chopping anything. There's less cleanup. And if you're interested in minimizing an environmental impact, every one of those boxes is 100% recyclable. So cool innovation, I think.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And it's important, it's important. I think also there's just a lot of misconceptions when it comes to built-up roofing and asphalted products overall. But when you think about the environmental benefits of small things like that, 100% recyclable packaging and how easy it's for the crew, but then also the fact that how long these roofs last and the fact that now you're not dumping into the landfill. I know we already talked about that earlier, but this is always something that comes to mind.

So what are you hearing from your specifiers, your architects, your contractors, on that environmental front and how important is that? I feel like are we pushing it or is it just we're still getting out there with this?

Josh Willey: Yeah. I think if you listen to the marketing message of most of the bigger manufacturers in the industry, it really is important to the large portion of the roofing industry. And landfill space is actually going away, especially as it relates to roof tear-offs. That is a finite resource and it is rapidly disappearing. And depending on what markets you're in, it may cost a lot very soon to actually dispose of a roof.

So for manufacturers, for roofing contractors, that's going to be a very important element moving forward if it's not already. That marketing message is a powerful one. And I think importantly, consumers want a system that's friendly as well. And some cities mandate it, some don't, but there's been a significant proliferation in green roofs and vegetative roof systems. And by the way, quick sales pitch, asphalt built-up is one of the best membranes for a vegetative roof.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yes, it is.

Josh Willey: Those types of systems are growing in popularity with building owners in places they're being mandated, so that's a really important message moving forward.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. And I mean, California has regulations now on recycling, what can go into a landfill, what can't, how much money you have to pay in bonds and everything else. And then Denver, I think everyone's very familiar of the green roofs in Denver, Chicago, a lot of these cities that just have these beautiful roofs but that need long-term redundancy in order for them to thrive and protect that building.

Okay. Another area, I'll never forget the day I was working, before I got into the roofing industry and I went by and checked out this roof and they were mopping and there were ... It smelled, there were fumes. Vickie Sharples, who you know, my business partner, she's always like, "Smells like money," which I just love that. But that has changed a lot through technology also and just research on the fumes. What are you seeing along that? Because I know sometimes, especially hospitals, different things, there's sensitivities and contractors need to know really how to address that.

Josh Willey: Yeah, it's long been perceived that asphalt fumes are harmful and even cancer causing. And of course we're exposed to lots of things every day on a daily basis that can have that effect. But there is data, actual workplace data, about how safe working with asphalt actually is.

And governmental agencies, it's their job to tell you what the risk of maybe working with a product can be. And how they do that is a lot of times, well, with asphalt particularly, they do what's called skin painting on lab mice. And they take that data and they come up with a risk factor for that product actually causing cancer. And so that's how they establish that, and that's how your mandate for marking a product as, quote, unquote, "cancer causing" or anything like that is established. So that's a thing, and that's what people are going to see first and foremost.

A while back NRCA in conjunction with the Asphalt Institute and ARMA, it was the Asphalt Roofing Manufacturers Association, they actually did a pretty comprehensive ... a quantitative study that ... It's a risk assessment that really breaks down the differences between what a governmental agency's identification of an occupational hazard and an actual risk assessment. And the data is really fascinating. There's a lot of specific values that I won't go into, but we'll get that up on our profile page as well. It's really fascinating.

Just one quick piece of that data, what they found essentially is that your risk of acquiring lung cancer from daily exposure to roofing asphalts as a professional in the field doing this every day, is about eight chances in a million.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Oh. Okay.

Josh Willey: And that's not a lot. When you compare that to the things we are exposed to daily that you can find in this report, like your chances of maybe choking on something or things like that, it really brings into stark focus how safe it actually is.

So yes, it smells and yes, there are some carcinogenic risk factors, but this study really shows how safe working with roofing asphalt actually is.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That's so good. And I think perception, getting past perception, so people out there who maybe have moved away from it but now see the opportunity, are moving back to it. Or even some of the new younger contractors who are like, "Hey, this may be a good niche for me to get into." It's going to be with the Infrastructure Bill, with everything that's been going on, this market is going to continue to grow. And then of course, as you so well said earlier, extreme weather, one of our favorite topics and how that's affecting the roofs.

So how can contractors find out more? I mean, how can they get in touch with you, but how can they find out more about really what's going on with United Asphalts, with the demand, but then also the BUR products and how to get into installing?

Josh Willey: Yeah, so unitedasphalts.com is our website. We're on Facebook as well, United Asphalts. We have a feed that's live on our website where you can see our Facebook feed, so one stop for you there. You don't have to go two places to check that out. RoofersCoffeeShop, as good a resource as any. We have our profile page up there. We put as many of our videos and our product literature and all of those things on the CoffeeShop. That's as good a one-stop shop for all of our info as any because obviously all of that information links to us online.

We have a nationwide network of sales reps from our Contact Us page on the website. Any of your contractors that are listening or distributors or what have you, there's information that will link you to our sales rep in whatever part of the country you might be in. So that's as good a place as any to go. We're trying to expand our online footprint so people can find us easily. We have some videos on YouTube. If you search United Asphalts on YouTube, you'll find the packaging videos that we like to talk about. And stay tuned. We're working on restoration product that we're not quite ready to bring all the way to market, but that will be something that'll be coming down the pipe hopefully really soon.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That will probably be our next podcast.

Josh Willey: I think so.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: We're going to talk about it, because we already talked-

Josh Willey: We [inaudible 00:25:46] together.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: We set the stage, how important restoration is, how important durability, redundancy, all of that great stuff. Josh, this is great. Thank you so much. Great information.

Josh Willey: I appreciate you having me. Thanks for the opportunity, Heidi.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Oh, I love it, I love it. And please, everyone visit United Asphalts directory on RoofersCoffeeShop, find out what's going on. They're also on CoatingsCoffeeShop. This is a market that you could get your company into, or maybe you're already there and now you're seeing all the great opportunities that are happening. With everything that's happening out there, from weather to politics, it's kind of a crazy time for everybody.

Also, check out all of our podcasts under the Read Listen Watch navigation on rooferscoffeeshop.com. And be sure to on your own personal podcast channels, subscribe and set those notifications so you don't miss a single episode. We'll be seeing you next time on Roofing Road Trips.

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