Pat Muhs - Balancing Tech and Humanity in Sales - PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Pat Muhs of Moose Roofing. You can read the interview below or listen to the podcast.

Intro: Welcome to Roofing Road Trips, the podcast that takes you on a thrilling journey across the world of roofing. From fascinating interviews with roofing experts to on the road adventures, we'll uncover the stories, innovations and challenges that shape the rooftops over our heads. So, fasten your seat belts and join us as we embark on this exciting roofing road trip. 

Heidi Ellsworth: Welcome to another Roofing Road, trips from Roofers Coffee Shop. My name is Heidi Ellsworth. And again, we are talking about one of my favorite topics. Sales. Yeah, sales and technology, because it all goes hand in hand today and contractors need to be up on how that's working, but at the same time, never forgetting the human factor and those relationships that they build every single day out in the field. So we talk to our friends at Sales Assist to come in and get, share some of their knowledge, their wisdom about what's happening around technology and that human interaction. I am so excited to have Pat Moose back to talk to us. Pat, welcome. 

Pat Muhs: Hi, Heidi. How's it going? 

Heidi Ellsworth: It's going good. I'm so excited to see you. I enjoyed our last podcast so much. I love talking about sales and technology, you know? Yeah. 

Pat Muhs: I'm excited to be here too. And when you said the human interaction, the technology, uh, I'm definitely gonna have to rely upon my history and my ability and the human interaction part, because tech is not my thing. However, we employ it day in and day out all day long here in several applications that definitely make our lives easier around here. 

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah, yeah. It, it does, it does. It makes it easier. Sometimes a little bit more chaotic, but it definitely makes it easier. So let's talk about that a little bit. But first of all, let's, if you could introduce yourself and tell us about your business. 

Pat Muhs: So, I'm Patrick Moose. I'm the owner of a roofing company and of Sales Assist, uh, which is a, a app that we've built that uses 3D animations to explain some of the really complicated elements of roofing assembly, a roofing process that is a, an effective tool for project manager salespeople. Whatever moniker you use for your representatives that are in the field and meeting with, you know, homeowners. So with business owners to explain the processes that we employ to make sure that we put a good roof product on a, uh, customer's building or home. Oftentimes, I think we, in the industry take for granted how difficult and how complicated some of the concepts are that we have to explain to a homeowner or to a business owner that we know it inside and out. Uh, a lot of us come from the background of actually being out in the field and the people who do the installations, but we have to remember that our homeowners and our, some of our property owners don't understand complicated construction processes. And so this is a tool we developed to can some of our, uh, small short clips on the very, uh, uh, most complicated and most hard to effectively communicate to our customer to, to help explain what we do. 

Heidi Ellsworth: That is great. Wow. I mean, what a great tool and something that is so important as we are, you know, as Construction Roofing General is really catching up on the technology front. Um, and in that, with that in mind, pat, let's talk just a little bit about that balance. I know there's a lot of contractors out there who maybe are a little bit older and who are thinking this technology stuff is just too much, right? And that we're losing, we, we are missing that relationship. Um, how do you recommend for Con being a contractor and having a software company, how do you recommend keeping that good balance between technology and human interaction? 

Pat Muhs: Well, you're picking on me, Heidi. 'cause I am that guy that you just described. Technology often baffles me. Uh, um, I'm just not a person who grew up using it on a regular basis. I'm still a pen and paper notebook guy. And so that's part of the reason why I'm so excited about Sales Assist is that we have made this, uh, very user-friendly, I think quite easy to understand. It's not the kind of thing where a person needs to go out and get a degree in order to, in order to use what we have developed over at Sales Assist, it is an enhancement to or an augmentation to the sales process that people have already got established. And it's just a tool that you can implement, that you can insert into the sales process, uh, in order to take away some of the long and arduous affair that is trying to draw pictures or use hand signals to animate how air flows through an attic space or what have you. 

Pat Muhs: For the people who might be hesitant about embracing this, we've got some real statistical information about how it is helping with closing. Uh, there is a, there's a number of elements to what we do and how we do it. With sales assist, again, we didn't have to change anything about our sales program in order to employ sales assist. It's just simply a tool that we use to make it better, make it faster, make it more complete, more understandable. And there's a number of inherent values, if you will, utilizing this technology and utilizing this program. As we're doing our sales presentation and we build in small clips throughout the entire process, it's forcing a person to practice the pitch before they get to the dining room table. It affords an opportunity. We have some analytics on the back end of this thing that allow owners of contracting companies to see how much of the videos and how much of the, uh, the tools that are being employed are actually being used when the presentation is being done. 

Pat Muhs: I talk about the dining room table because the vast majority of what we do is residential roofing. Uh, but it doesn't matter if it's in the boardroom or a conference room or the kitchen table, dining room table. Very effective tools just using an iPad or a notebook. And, um, we're finding it to be very, the feedback that we're getting is that it creates or in essence, it helps with, uh, some predictability and some continuity within the sales process. And then it affords the, uh, project manager an opportunity to pay attention much more so to the customer and what their needs, discussing budget, discussing the, the elements that, that, uh, must be addressed. If we're not stressing over trying to figure out how to explain a concept, then we can pay attention more closely to the process. 

Heidi Ellsworth: You know, I love that. And it, it really, what it really comes down to is using technology to enhance the human interaction. Right. And that's how it should, it should enhance it. I, I look back and think about when I was with EagleView and contractors were like, no way. You know, you can't, why would you want something from the air to measure the roof? And it's because it gave you more time with the customer. Right. And that and you didn't have to teach as much. I mean, you still have to teach, know how to measure a roof. But to your point now, same thing because you have these great videos, this great education for homeowners, salespeople are able to really spend that time with the homeowner and explain it in a way that makes sense and that they can actually keep, you know, they can have that be able to see it later on when they're trying to understand what did they say about ventilation? What am I supposed to be thinking about? 

Pat Muhs: I, well, that's, uh, that is a very good point that you bring up, Heidi. Two things I remember when EagleView came onto the scene. 

Pat Muhs: And, uh, frankly, you know, while we're addressing the older mindset, that paradigm that exists within the industry, which is the way that I would always differentiate myself, uh, from the competition and our sales staff, was that we were really well educated and very well trained. And I was, frankly, a little bit upset when, when EagleView hit the scene. And now subsequently, there's been a number of other applications that have come along that, that, uh, do essentially the same thing. But I said, doggone at this level's the playing field. And, uh, now somebody who has no idea what they're doing when it comes to the roofing process is going to be able to communicate measurements and, uh, have a neat little presentation that they can show the homeowner. But what I discovered truthfully is that it didn't give anybody else a greater advantage. If we can spend our time actually communicating with the homeowner and doing a really deep dive and finding out exactly what they need, that's where the rubber hits the road in the interaction with the homeowner. It has nothing to do with how well you measure the roof. Because we've seen in the past when guys were pulling a tape measure and forgot one of the slopes that they were putting on there that the customer didn't know anyway. Right. And so 

Pat Muhs: Initial reservation, or my, my, I guess, dislike for the technology being introduced was Ill-founded for sure. Yeah. Because it does indeed afford me an opportunity to train my people more quickly. Now, it used to take, I mean, 20 years ago, it took me a couple of years to have one of our representatives get to a point where their education was, was great enough with measuring and, uh, uh, being able to handle all the nuance that's on a roof. And, uh, it took a long time for people to be trained well enough to be able to go on their own. Nevermind that, that technology has saved a lot of time on the roof and it's made it much more safe to do what we do. Exactly. 

Pat Muhs: Therein lies the reason right there. Why embracing a new technology, a new app, so to speak, it's not a new technology at all. Right? That's just a new way of utilizing technology. And if I didn't say it before, certainly I want to enhance the part of the conversation that is, I didn't get replaced by EagleView. As a matter of fact, we're only better at what we do. And so when a person is contemplating, you know, should I embrace this movement? Listen, there are new apps coming out every single day and there is five or six of them that we use on a daily basis on every job. We use them a hundred times a day by all of our staff that that's, uh, employing technology. And without that, we wouldn't be nearly as efficient. So it's not a matter of whether or not you could or should not, it's just how much of it should you use and how effective can you be in employing them, especially those applications that have to have integration. So they work well together. It's, it's a no brainer. And 

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah, 

Pat Muhs: Finally, you just can't count on it to or have the fear that that technology is going to replace human interaction. Right. It's only there to enhance it and make it better. So we're not gonna get pushed outta this business by technology. 

Heidi Ellsworth: No, we're not. It's, it is such an enhancement. And there, I think you bring up some great challenges, right? We had challenges in the past of educating our sales reps, educating your, um, you know, new employees to really understand it. Now today, technology is able to make that much faster and, um, that education process. So what, you know, as you are looking at right now, the sales process that's going on out there in roofing companies, both from your stance as a contractor and as a software business owner, what are you seeing in some of the greatest challenges? And how is technology starting to really help with some of the solutions? 

Pat Muhs: Well, first of all, and this may be falling back on that question about should we or should we not be using technology are the challenges that we face today, uh, as that things move much more quickly than they have in the past and our customer is much more discerning. I don't think that that's a challenge. I think that's actually a good thing. They've got access to applications, they've got access to technology, to information that is zen endless. Not all of it is true. Not all of it's correct, but it's out there. And when we take the time to, to familiarize ourself with what's available to our customer, what's available to our property owner, the competition, that's one of the things that I'm really doubling down on all of the technology that we're employing the, uh, investments that we're making in the tech side of the business, because we have to stay ahead of our competition. 

Pat Muhs: There's a, there's a lot of really amazing things that private equity are bringing into this space. People realize that there's a lot to a lot of money to be made in, in this industry. And I think, frankly, we have lacked in sophistication for so many years, decades, even that now that there is this opportunity to inject a lot of tech and a lot of understanding of, uh, a lot of technology into this space. I think people see that as a huge opportunity. So we just have to stay on top of the power curve on that. 

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah, I do too. I agree. I think that's the number one challenge, staying in front of it. Because, you know, I, I'm gonna say I'm with you, what you said at the very beginning, like, technology sometimes just stymies me, but I do know that is the most important thing for my business, for our business, that we embrace it and and really make that happen. And I think that is the one of the greatest challenges that roofing contractors and companies have today, is that not even, not just embracing it, understanding it and understanding how to enhance your business with that. Um, so let's talk, you mentioned this earlier and I just wanna kind of go back and talk about this a little bit, is the, um, how homeowners have changed in their research patterns, how much research they're doing, how much they expect to be educated and how that really is starting to affect, um, close rates and, you know, really being able to take your business the next one. So what are you seeing around that? 

Pat Muhs: Yeah. Well, the, the readily available information is being accessed. It's being used, you know, the customer is compiling their own data. And again, that doesn't necessarily mean that all the data are correct, right? Right. There are times when some pretty wild notions have been developed, uh, when we get into the, get into that dining room or boardroom to, uh, uh, to have a conversation. But it is, you know, usually what it ends up being new information that has been kind of mixed in with an old paradigm. We see this a lot, uh, with people who, the, the line of quote, I used to do this when I was a kid, unquote. And, uh and things have changed so drastically, so dramatically that, uh, that we just have to be right. And, uh  and so that, you know, utilizing our own technology and making sure that we're getting the appropriate source material for to, to remain relevant and to remain correct is certainly the most important part of all of this. 

Pat Muhs: The other thing that I think that people have to understand and I might sound like a little bit of a broken record, but we can't allow the technology to replace what we do. We still have to be that consummate professional. We still have to be the person who knows exactly what it is that's being proposed, know what the customer is asking for, knowing how to bridge that gap between the two to get to that budget and get to the understanding of exactly what the customer needs. And so we can't allow the technology to replace us and our ability to interact with that customer. We get asked, since we can make a, a, a custom video out of our, with our program, use it utilizing little short clips in sequence to explain the process from beginning to end for our homeowner. Oftentimes we were asked by a contractor, Hey, can we just, you know, crank this thing out and put it into an email and 

Pat Muhs: Send it off to the customer? It's like, well, how does that work for you? When you send estimates via email, how does it work when you roll up a paper one and stick it in the front door and then somebody comes along and snatches it, that's knocking on that door, right? No. Why would you take the technology? Why would you take the opportunity and the advancement in your sales process that sets you apart from all the rest of the competition? And then try to figure out some way to relegate yourself to being just like all the rest of 'em and then emailing them something anyway. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Like, utilize this. Make sure that you're practicing. Make sure that you're, that you've got this all down. Be the person who shows up for the game, and that's the first time you've practiced the play. Right. 

Pat Muhs: And, uh and so again, I'm not looking to change anybody's process. Certainly not qualified to give anybody advice, but we have found that the, that this creating the continuity of the consistency within the sales process, utilizing these videos and then there's feedback amongst the group of guys when they train and when they warm up to go out for their sales day, it's like, Hey, I found presenting, you know, this sequence in this way is a really effective means of communication. So we've got this collaborative going on with our sales staff, and they're helping one another out, boosting one another up in this process to make sure that we're doing the best that we possibly can. I consider it a duty that, that, uh, that our company, when we're out working in our community, that I consider it our duty to, to be the person who is chosen by our customer, which 

Heidi Ellsworth: We know they're coming ready for these appointments and really they want to learn. And so that's what I love about sales Assist, is that to be able to watch these videos and really be able to teach homeowners why ventilation's important, why under laymans are important, why, you know, all these different things. But I wanna talk a little bit about training the salespeople. So the salespeople are using the new technologies, and I'm just gonna say specifically sales assist. How do you go about training them so that they are also listening, like you talked about earlier, listening to the homeowners, but then also being able to really use this technology to educate and substantiate their research basically as they're working through that? 

Pat Muhs: Right. Well, the research part of it has been done because the original impetus for how this all came about was that we were using it to train, uh, a consistent training platform for the people who were in production. And then that evolution took it to the production guys, simply suggesting it's like, wow, why don't we get this into the trainer's hands for when we go through the sales bootcamp and the training process? And then, uh and then those salespeople, uh, the, the idea was born of then taking it directly to the homeowner. And that's where this platform really became more engaging, where the, where the, the app, I, I probably shouldn't call it a platform. There, I'm, there, I'm, uh, exposing myself from my lack of, of tech, uh, lingo, right? But, uh, but where this app, you know, where, where we can utilize it to actually communicate with the homeowner. And that's where we really started, uh, dumping a lot of time, effort and energy into making sure that we could make this into a, you know, a user interface that, uh, that is, is attractive. And that makes a lot of sense to the homeowner, that it's easy to use when it's in the field, when it comes to the training of the salespeople. You know, uh, we're learning. Um, I, I think in our industry, we are typically a, uh, a, a a field of cowboys, 

Pat Muhs: Kind of tend to shoot from the hip, and we wanna do things on our own. And we're very individual in this, in this, uh, in this space. But when you've got a professional organization, when we started to gain traction and become more and more successful in scaling the business, we began making that continuity, creating that continuity in the sales process by having professionally trained people. We go off to seminars as groups. Uh, our guys trained together on a daily basis in the mornings before they go out, uh, in the afternoons and evenings to meet with our customers. So having systems, having process, having protocol that, uh, we all adhere to, we, you know, manage our process and we lead our people, we set a good example. And so having this process set up where every day there's participation, it's no different. I, I think that sales, uh and this is not something that I came up with, but it is something that I certainly have adopted or or adapted my way of thinking to, is that sales is very, very closely related to a professional sports team. And, uh or, uh and we do take it that seriously, I was gonna say or college or high school or whatever, but, uh, but, but a professional sports team, that's how, that's how we look at this. And, uh and so it would be kind of silly if we didn't, uh, if we thought that we could be professionals without practice. Um, and you practice is how you perform. It's not, it's not practice that makes you perfect, it's perfect practice that makes you perfect. And so, 

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah, 

Pat Muhs: In an environment where we're collaborating, where we're supporting one another, we do role playing every single day to some degree. And I'm just utilizing the sales assist tool amongst others. But, but we're here, I'm plugging sales assist, right? 

Pat Muhs: That's alright. Like, that's, that's okay. Something that has really helped us increase our closing rates because it does indeed help customers understand of some very complicated roofing processes through these 3D animations. And so when we're hitting that on a daily basis, the guys are getting really good, I alluded to earlier, where they'll actually help one another out and saying, Hey, you know, I've found success with showing this particular clip when I'm talking about this particular part of our process, this particular video or animation mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, uh and so they can help one another out, uh, to, to increase their productivity. And the thing that I like, and I think I've mentioned this before or maybe on the other podcast, but one of the things that I love about our program, about sales assist and the app is that, you know, you go to these seminars, I've been to 'em before where somebody asks you, you know, Hey, just abandon everything that you've been doing up to date. 

Pat Muhs: Uh, you're doing it all wrong. You know, if you'll just buy my program, then, uh, right then, uh, you know, pay me 60 grand a year and we'll get you fixed and get you going. <laugh>. Well, that cowboy mentality, that individualism the, uh, the, the ego of the industry, so to speak and I'm saying ego in a positive way, not as a negative connotation at all, but, uh, but is that I don't wanna abandon my process. You know, we've spent years and years and years perfecting it and I don't want to give you the impression that I think it's perfect. There is still a lot of duct tape and bailing wire holding this thing together here. But we've spent so much time perfecting our process and we're, and we're aware of the growth and of the success of that program. And so sales assist is an opportunity to just enhance what you're already doing. I know I've used that word a few times during this podcast, but, but it's an enhancement. It's not a replacement. And that mindset has to be pervasive throughout the entire program, uh, with a company is that technology is not going to replace what you do. Technology isn't gonna replace you as a person. The sales assist program isn't gonna magically sell stuff for you. Right. We still must be roofing professionals, sales professionals in our, in our space. 

Heidi Ellsworth: I love that. I think that's so true. But I also really that enhancement of the technology, those 3D videos, those 3D imagery that really explains what's happening up there. I think that's key. That's key to closing, that's key to having educated consumers and to long term relationships and referrals. I mean it all, that's right. It all plays together well. Okay. So one of the things I kind of wanna talk about, because I think this kind of scares people, but I, you said it and it was really cool that salespeople are helping each other, right? And what this worked great here, this worked great there. Your whole program is backed by analytics. So you can kind of see where people are stopping, where they're, you know, where things are really working. So as contractors are out there putting together their sales presentations, contacting sales assist or maybe they're just putting together the sales presentations using technology, what are some of the, what's some of your advice on really infusing the human touch along with the technology, along with, you know, all the video and everything else into these sales presentations to really make it fit for them? 

Pat Muhs: Well, I compared the sales process to a professional sports team. And no matter how good the players on a professional sports team, the advice that I would give is, is that they better have a darn good coach. So, you know, there was a lot of years that I, as the, uh, the guy who started the roofing company ran everything. I was sales, I was production, I was the front office. Good lord. Was that a disaster? Right? Yeah, <laugh> and, uh and as we see the, uh, need for and the ability to replace ourselves in the steps along the way, uh, that I recognize that there were a lot of people out there who were much better at sales than I was. People who had the classic training in the sales process. And, uh, I come from a background of being the guy who's on the technical side. 

Pat Muhs: You know, I was a production guy. I've been roofing houses since I was 10 years old. So I tend to look at things from the perspective of production and my opinion, the way that I led in my organization was always that giving people all of the information that they needed to know and telling them everything. No, lemme go back. I tried to communicate everything that I knew to a homeowner <laugh>. And, and so again, I I, I have to go back and emphasize the advantage of using the app sales assist in development and enhancing of a sales process, because it takes away from a lot of that shooting from the hip, a lot of that. I don't want to give people the impression that there's no individuality or that there's no personality that comes from the salesperson in the process because that's absolutely not true. You know, everybody says something in a little bit different way or presents with a little bit different nuance on a certain points and that sort of thing. But if we can consistently have a coach watching over what we do for our sales process and putting that into a formula that we know works, we're gonna improve our chances of going out and and having success in that boardroom or in that, in that dining room. Yeah. And 

Pat Muhs: That's the part that's appealing is that, uh, you know, humans are very resistant to change. We fall into our habits and we've got our routines and we really don't wanna change anything. But I can show a sales representative how the deals that they're going out on and the interactions they're having with their, if they can disclose one more of those per week, that's, that's a lot of commission that comes in for just adapting a habit a little bit for just paying attention to some minute details for getting on board with the team, for listening to your coach to make sure that you're Yeah. Optimizing the advantage that you've got in setting yourselves apart from the competition. And then we also have to understand, of course, that it's not always a, another roofing contractor you're competing with. It's some of the morays, some of the paradigms in the industry, uh, some of the notions perhaps that an insurance company shared with the homeowner that all roofers are the same and that all roofing is the same and nothing could be further from the truth, but this is a way that you can demonstrate that yeah, this is a way the person can demonstrate that. 

Pat Muhs: And then to convince a business owner like myself, why sales assist? Well, again, we are very diligent about seeing how we get our leads, how well those are disseminated, getting the right leads in the right hands of which one of our sales representatives. And if we've got some analytics that are coming back and being able to see how well our staff, how they're doing, all of our guys that are all W2, so I call 'em staff as their employees, right? Some folks, you know, have 10 99 salespeople and what have you, but you still wanna afford, no matter what their relationship with the company is, you still wanna afford 'em the opportunity to, to achieve the best success that they possibly can. And when I'm talking to another business owner about this, it doesn't take very long to understand this. It's like we all have to pay for leads no matter how we get them. Whether they come in through a social source, uh, whether we're out knocking doors, whether it's a, a referral, those do cost, right? 

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah. Like 

Pat Muhs: You, a person has to have spent time, energy and a lot of effort and, uh, years of being in the industry and performing well to gain a referral, right? Yeah. Yeah. So they're all expensive. And if we don't waste them, if we improve the chances and the ability that we've got to close on those deals, well then that's not a very hard sell. 

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah, no, it makes so much sense. And I think, you know, to kind of wrap this up, I also think the consumers are expecting it. I think they're expecting it now, not everyone and it's still a growing thing, but if you walk in there without the technology, I think you're already walking in behind and not Yeah, 

Pat Muhs: I it's not gonna be saying, I would definitely agree with that observation, Heidi, is that I too would be reluctant to say that every customer is expecting it. But I would absolutely get behind what you just said is that if one representative comes in and is utilizing technology and doing it well and providing a service for the homeowner and somebody comes in with a paper copy and a a and an idea about like, yeah, I could get that off and get something else back on, 

Pat Muhs: Can tell you most certainly, uh, who the customer is gonna choose a well-informed and confident customer is gonna choose the person who brought that technology and had the ability to communicate, to satisfy the needs of the customer. 

Heidi Ellsworth: Exactly. Every time. Every time, every time. Um, pat as always, I love this. This is so great. Thank you so much. Next steps, how do they find sales assist? What do they do next to kind of start looking at adapting and adopting this in, um, 2025? 

Pat Muhs: Well hunt us down on the Roofer's Coffee shop. 

Heidi Ellsworth: Yes. 

Pat Muhs: Right? Like that's the first place that you should look or you can look up sales assist. 

Heidi Ellsworth: Perfect. And ask for a demo. 'cause that always helps explain 

Pat Muhs: Everything. Yep, that's exactly right. Yes, indeed. 

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah. Well, thank you again. I look forward to seeing you. We have show season coming up in front of us, so I'll be seeing you in person, but, um, we'll be doing this again. Pat, thank you so much. 

Pat Muhs: You got it, Heidi. I can't wait to see you as well. 

Heidi Ellsworth: Okay. Thank you. And thank you all for listening. Please check out Sales Assist Directory on Roofers Coffee Shop. It is so cool, the 3D animation and the explanation, the research that it's just smart. And so check it out, get it into your system, um and check out all of our podcasts under the read, listen and watch navigation and Roofing Road trips or on your favorite podcast channel. Be sure to subscribe and set those notifications so you don't miss a single episode. We'll be seeing you next time on Roofing Road trips. 

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