Mark Gies & Dustin Haddock – Solar Racking Code – 2703A - PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Mark Gies and Dustin Haddock from S-5!. You can read the interview below or listen to the podcast.

Intro: Welcome to Roofing Road Trips with Heidi. Explore the roofing industry through the eyes of a long-term professional within the trade. Listen for insights, interviews and exciting news in the roofing industry today.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Hello and welcome to another Roofing Road Trips from RoofersCoffeeShop. This is Heidi Ellsworth, and today we're going to talk about codes. Yes, and in particular, solar codes. So this is some information that you really need, that we need as an industry to be really embracing. So we got the experts from S-5! here to talk about all that's happening around this solar code.

Mark, Dustin, welcome to the show.

Mark Gies: Thank you, Heidi.

Dustin Haddock: Thanks for having us.

Mark Gies: Yeah, happy to be here again.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Again. I know. We keep pulling you back in. It's pretty awesome.

Mark Gies: It's awesome.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: So, for the few people who don't know you two, let's go ahead and start with some introductions. So Dustin, can you start? Tell us who you are, what you do and a little bit about S-5!?

Dustin Haddock: Yeah, for sure. So what I do, I'll start there. S-5! is a family-run company. My dad came up with the core technologies in the early '90s for being able to put things on metal roofs and do it in a manner that doesn't jeopardize the integrity of the roof. Heidi, think about what is a common problem is the trades that come later. You have this perfectly magical standing seam roof that is engineered to function not being, so to speak, fixed to a purlin or have holes in it. And trades come out later and put HVAC on it, put solar on it and do it in means that jeopardizes the integrity of the roof.

And so, S-5!, what we do is we believe metal roofing is a superior roof technology and we want to galvanize the entire world with metal roofing and do it in such a way that we make it not only the most sustainable option, but the easiest to fix things to, to use and get the full lifespan out of that roof. It's things that happen later to the roof that jeopardizes how long it's going to last. And so that's what we do. This is our big goal.

I started, I don't know, I think I was like seven with my dad and packaging what we called widgets because S-5! wasn't quite named yet. So we would pack widgets and we'd package them in the garage as kids many, many years ago. And since then, I rodeoed and went to college on a rodeo scholarship. And ironically, I got a bachelor's degree in communication science and a minor in English. But somehow I ended up in code-standard engineering with S-5!.

And I guess the reason being is when I came on full-time, I think I started in marketing. I saw we needed some help with code and standard. We were constantly getting questions. I also picked up the phone and talked to the customers. And so, they're asking the questions about where a product like ours falls in the building code or is it listed to any given standard? And the answer is no. It was a niche, so to speak, that the code really hadn't looked at and neither had standard organizations.

And so, my job, I guess, blossomed into testing, engineering, creating new products as well as working with AHJs, the building officials and the guys that write the code and the guys that write the standards, getting on the standard technical panels. I always say if you're not at the table, you're on the plate.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That's right.

Dustin Haddock: We strive to make sure metal roofing's not forgot when code and standards are being created. And we also strive to make sure that not only is metal roofing not remembered, but components such as ours are, and they're evaluated in such a way that that's the bar that's the same for everybody. I don't care if somebody has another widget that picked this metal roof, provided the rules are the same with the testing, the engineering and whatnot.

So we do a lot of work in that area. That's not where I thought I was going to start, but I guess I had a knack for it. People say I saunter and saunter, to me, is not a bad thing. If you're able to saunter, you'll get along with code and standard knowing that it doesn't happen overnight and it takes a tremendous amount of time, energy and just staying at it and knowing that it's going to be a slow process.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, I'll tell you, it is. And kudos to you because coming from marketing and communications and rodeo and everything else you do, and then you are so well-known in the code and standards realm and everything that's out there. And we forgot to say at the beginning, Dustin, your last name is Haddock, so Dustin Haddock.

Dustin Haddock: Right, yeah. I'm the youngest.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: There you go. I love it. We also have with us Mark Gies. So Mark, please introduce yourself.

Mark Gies: Sure. Thanks, Heidi. So I'm involved on the product management side at S-5!, but like Dustin, I wear a lot of hats both technically and on the business side. I've been here for, time flies, I've been here more than four years now, and I've been in solar for almost 15 years, which is a long time. And I've seen it all. And most of that has been with mounting systems, racking, codes and standards.

One thing I'll say is when I got started getting to know Dustin and the S-5!, one of the most surprising things that I learned, I didn't realize this, is that you can actually get a rodeo scholarship to go to college. I did not know that.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: It's a sport, it's a sport.

Mark Gies: Being older, I did not know that.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Well, okay. Yeah, going into the codes and what's happening with solar, let's start out on... I mean, this whole Roofing Road Trip is really to talk about that, like what's happening with solar racking codes, what's taking effect.

So Dustin, let's start with you. Can you talk to us about the new code or give us maybe a history of this code of UL 2703? What is it and why should we care?

Dustin Haddock: Yeah, for sure. And I'll give you some context as well. When I talk about UL standards and UL listings and stuff like that, to put it why they exist, why they're there is for safety, human safety, to make sure that, it sounds maybe a little bit rude, but basically it says, "We've looked at this product so thoroughly that we're pretty sure it's not going to kill you."

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Good.

Dustin Haddock: And we were getting questions about do we have a UL listing and what is our UL listing? And there just wasn't anything that existed. And so we play in the solar world a fair bit, and I started studying what listings UL, other NRTOs, what standards, if you will, already existed around floatable tags. And the big one at the time was 1703.

And so I sent our TV kit and some of our components to Underwriters Laboratory and said, "I know I can't list this to 1703, but there are things within that standard that could be relevant to products like ours." And at the same time, I also did that with Inertech, another NRTO, and was working with them both to get it on their radar.

UL came back and said, "Yeah, we can look at this based on the bonding and grounding within 1703, which is electrical, but making sure people don't get shocked," and they can look at it from some mechanical aspect as well instead. 1703 has mechanical loading for modules. It's pretty arbitrary. And so they said, "Well, we just take your product and melt the modules and run the same test and we could get either a recognized component or it doesn't qualify for the full standard, but it'll give you some sort of certification."

And in doing that, it was a process. They said, "Hang on. We're working on a new standard for racking components, and maybe the best route is not to go with 1703, but to wait for this new standard to come out." And I was like, "Well, I don't know what's in the new standard. Can I have a copy?" And the response was, "Well, there's one copy right now and it's closely guarded. You just got to trust me."

And in doing that, that was what they were talking about was subject UL 2703. Now, the difference between a subject and a standard is it's a subject until it's been approved by the STP and goes through the ANSI process. And the ANSI process basically is you get a bunch of professionals from different spaces, manufacturing, consultants, installers, building officials, all go over this subject and chew it up, spit it out until everybody says, "Yep, we agree." Then it becomes a standard.

Mark Gies: Right. And can I jump in, Dustin?

Dustin Haddock: Yeah.

Mark Gies: I think that's a very important thing and that's called consensus-driven, and that's what separates a standard from just people doing something on a one-off basis. So that's a very important part of why a standard is accepted is that it's voted on by a committee of experts, so it has gravitas. People believe it from this consensus-driven... That's the keyword. Anyway, go ahead.

Dustin Haddock: Yeah, that's why we're not going to talk about LEED because that's not a consensus driven.

Anyways, we went through this process and weren't sure what was going to be added or subtracted from this Subject UL 2703. So we ran a gamut of tests not knowing if it would be included in the listing, but we didn't want to go through the process yet again. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

And that's ironically where Mark and I met is in the process of this Subject UL 2703, which evaluates racking components, everything from the rack up. It doesn't look at structural to the roof, which that's another story we can get on maybe later. But we were working very hard to be the first, first listed to Subject 2703.

Mark Gies: And who won, by the way?

Dustin Haddock: Yeah, you won.

Mark Gies: Okay.

Dustin Haddock: And so, Mark won because I was the guy that was going through the learning curve with UL. So when Mark came in later, they had already figured it all out based on my... He'll tell you a different story.

Mark Gies: Yeah, I'll tell you different story.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I love it.

Dustin Haddock: That's essentially how Mark and I met.

Mark Gies: Yeah, right.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Okay. So where are we now, right now? And maybe, Mark, start with you on 2703 and kind of what that's doing for us.

Mark Gies: So, 2703 is highly established now. And when we talk about the acceptance of standards in just permitting, it's widely accepted now. So it has morphed a little bit. As all things, it's evolved. There's been some changes to it, but it's pretty much very sought after and everybody recognizes it as sort of this is what it takes. To get a project approved, you have to demonstrate that you have a system that's compliant or listed or certified to this UL 2703.

But it also has opened up some gaps, and I think that's relevant to the roofing industry, and Dustin mentioned that, is that the scope... When you create a standard, you have to create the scope because then you could take forever to do it. And so the scope that we had set was we're not going to deal with what touches the roof. We're going to deal with the racking, but not if you screw it down or use weight to hold it down or some other type of attachment. That's out of the scope.

A little bit has changed, but basically that gap really had created a lot of turmoil in the fact that when you do have attachments, and we sell a lot of attachments to metal roofs obviously, and there's a lot of other ones that are out there that use adhesives, that are patches for asphalt roofs or single-ply membrane roofs, and now getting them approved for a project, that gap has been very difficult to deal with because the reason there's a standard is it's consensus-driven, everybody understands it and believes it. And if you, say, throw this at a building inspector, they get it.

But there's a gap there and there's no... There's tests that prove waterproofing. There's other tests, but everybody has their own version and it's very confusing and chaotic on exactly where the interface is of the solar mounting system and that roof, that interface has been this gap that I think has created a lot of uncertainty and just creates more inefficiency in the permitting process.

Dustin Haddock: Yeah, and to tag team on that, what is within UL 2703 is bonding and grounding, electrical. And that, again, that's module to rack for racking components, and making sure that anything that's likely to be energized has an adequate ground path.

Mark Gies: Fire.

Dustin Haddock: That's a big part of 2703 is fire, which it's really kind of comical how that came along. I think it was NRCA. UL does putting floatable tags on a roof change the fire rating of the roof? So if you have a Class A roof, but you put a bunch of solar panels on there which are highlight flammable, is it going to change the rating of the roof? And the famous answer, and I love saying it because it gets you out of hot water, is it may or may not.

So in answering that question, fire testing, assembly fire testing got put in too and that kind of went into a gray area because UL wasn't looking at the roof; it was just looking at the racking components. Well, now we started doing some form-of-assembly tests with the rack and the roof and setting it on fire and seeing if it will affect the fire rating of the roof that you're putting it on. And so that became a big part.

And then the other one is mechanical load. Is the racking component fixing the module in such a way that the module's not going to get overloaded with snow or overloaded with wind or somehow slip out? So those are the three big categories in 2703. Again, what's missing, like Mark was saying, is because the NRC then asked the question again to UL and they said, "Okay, well, does 2703, within the scope of 2703, does that look at the connection of the rack to the roof?"

Mark Gies: And it did not.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: It does not. Wow.

Dustin Haddock: No. It went in front of the SDP and everybody's like, "No, it does not," and there had to be a formal letter and a formal whole deal that says, "no, that's not within the scope of UL 2703." And then I'll let you give the introduction to 2703A.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yes. So now we're looking at 2703A and closing the gap, Mark.\

Mark Gies: Right, yeah. So the creation of that was... And the NRCA was involved with that actually. So that was sort of just, "This is the next step we have to do. We have to close that gap," because it was widely known that, again, this interface of where the solar meets the roof is tough for inspectors to approve or not approve because you need that standard to sink your teeth into. You need a standard or you need an acceptance criteria that's also consensus-driven or IAPMO does evaluation criteria. So something like that that people can say, "If it's listed to this or passes this, then I believe it's done right." And so that's really been important.

So UL created, had a small team of people and they created what's now known as 2703A, and that is to sort of take a step in that direction of clearing up that gap. It looks at waterproofing and then it looks at material. This is about flashing now. We're talking about flashing. So it's about as installed, how waterproof it is, and then it also looks at the material to make sure that it's durable, that it will withstand the test of time.

So it references probably tests that people know already, which is like the ASTM 2140, which is an underwater test. There's a wind-driven rain test, there's some ozone tests for material, rip tests, strength tests, all sort of going back to ASTM, but they're gathered together in this standard, which is 2703A. It's now... Well, actually, it's not a standard yet. It's a subject matter. So now we're back to it's a subject matter, but the plan is, and we were just on the phone with the UL main point person on this, the plan is next Q1 of next year to ratify that. Again, consensus-driven, ratify that and so it becomes a full-blown standard.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: So, we're getting the news really right here. You're just getting on the phone with them. This is great.

Dustin Haddock: It's not even really published yet. I mean, you can go on UL's website-

Mark Gies: I'm looking at it right now.

Dustin Haddock: Yeah, but you can get onto UL's website and you can see a digital page by page, But it's still very hot and fresh. And when it's a subject, that means it could change pretty dramatically than if it was a standard. And I mean, I think we worked on 2703. That became a standard in 2015, but I think Mark and I were working on that in 2010.

Mark Gies: 2010.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Wow.

Mark Gies: Yeah, started to work on it. So Heidi, I guess the one thing in thinking this to the roofing community is this 2703A really is about roofing as much as it is about solar because it's using really common techniques that are used for flashing, penetrations or flashing over other things, with various methods. And it's saying, "We're going to now... People who want to put solar, this is going to be recognized as a way to evaluate flashing for solar systems." But it's not too different than things people will recognize who are part of the roofing community I think.

Dustin Haddock: Well, and that's the big thing is in NRCA... So what UL did, which was kind of different from their normal process, is 2703A was an idea. That idea then got drafted in the form of a subject, but before that subject was published or anything like that, they pulled together STP members from 2703 and put this document in front of us and said, "What do you think? Ta-da!" And I mean, NRCA was involved with that too. And I think really appreciated that they weren't rewriting the book. They were using no roofing standards, such as ASTM, within the standard to test flashing components. And that's a big deal because if ain't broke, don't fix it.\

Mark Gies: Yeah, they're not reinventing the wheel, but it's usually which ones are the important ones? Because one AHJ may say, "Oh, I want you to do this underwater test." One AHJ may say, "Okay, TSA 100, which is wind-driven rain, that's good enough." So this is a way to say, "This is what we think. We all agreed on it."

Dustin, it's your favorite word. When this was sort of introduced, there was a lot of cussing and discussing going on, to quote Dustin, about to try to get it from this just an initial subject to now it's evolved multiple times since then, still as a subject matter. But they are doing the work of looking at share stakeholders from various industries like NRCA, like the roofing community and the solar community and manufacturers to try to fine-tune it so that it can be accepted.

Dustin Haddock: Yeah. And what I love about it, they put ASTM 2140 in there. I mean, that's metal roofing. That's our baby. I always say if you've got six inches of static water pressure on your roof, you probably have bigger problems than a leak.

Mark Gies: Right. On all our products that penetrate for exposed fasten-type roofs, we do this test, ASTM 2140. That's been incorporated into the standard, into the Subject 2703A for low-slope roofs.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: So how should contractors, as we're looking at that, okay, so it's going to be adopted, we believe, but we don't know for sure what the final will be. It could change, but sometime in Q1. And then once that comes out because we have a lot. I was just talking to a major contractor out of Dallas yesterday and they just changed the name of their company from roofing and waterproofing to roofing, waterproofing, and solar. And there's a big movement there. How can contractors find out this information to make sure they're compliant?

Dustin Haddock: Right. So, it's interesting you say that because I've got a business card sitting on my desk and it's roofing, remodeling and solar. And that's what we wanted because it's, again, it's a trade to come later. You don't want an electrician trying to do roofing work. I'll just leave it there. I mean, the guys that should be putting solar on are the roofers.

Mark Gies: I agree.

Dustin Haddock: Hire the electrician to come do the rest.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Right, yeah.

Mark Gies: And we talk about that at the shows we're at, like METALCON. I talk to roofers and say, "You guys are the perfect discipline to get into solar to do that mechanical installation." And I think that's happening honestly. More and more people come interested in that to these shows and get into it like you're seeing now. You add solar roofing and solar now to your title.

But I think that does open up another section is once the standard is created, the next challenge is how do you create the demand for it? How do you get a building inspector in Texarkana to say, "Okay, in order to be on this roof, you need to be listed to 2703A, your flashing, or compliant with it," whatever it is? So that's sort of how does a standard get traction and get people who really want it?

And I don't know, that's the tough part. Either you do it through organizations like structural engineering organizations like SEAOC in California, and then you actually, at some point, people propose it to code change so that the code actually says, "If you build this, it has to be compliant. It has to be compliant with this or listed to this." And 1703, 2703 are in some of these codes now, but it's years later after they've been ratified that that happened. So it's a slow evolution of when things happen and then 10 years later, when every-

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Code has it.

Mark Gies: Code has it and it has to be adapted and, in the process, and people start using it anyway even though it's not necessary. It's just something, like I said, they bite their teeth into and that makes them happy.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Right. Well, and it also makes sense that contractors and businesses should be adopting this. When they know it's going to be there, why not start now? But not now, but as soon as this becomes a standard, really getting into that, and they can get with you at S-5! I mean, with both of you, with your amazing team to really understand that as they're adding solar to their business, right?

Mark Gies: Right. And our products that will fall under this, we will, once it gets a standard created or if not before, we'll start having our products listed to that because we tend to be ahead of the curve on [inaudible 00:30:19]-

Dustin Haddock: Yeah, we've already done the testing-

Mark Gies: Yeah, we've done the testing.

Dustin Haddock: ... before it was ever put in a standard or in the subject. I mean, a couple of things I want to point out though is, and this is where he that shall be nameless, a good buddy at UL-

Mark Gies: I have no idea who you're talking about.

Dustin Haddock: Well, him and I, we agree to disagree a lot. And my theory is-

Mark Gies: Now I know.

Dustin Haddock: ... the standard should exist before it's in the code, that you can't codify something before we know how we're going to test it. And that's where the sky fell a little bit with the fire testing because nobody was... It was required by code, but there wasn't even a test method established. But to his point is you have to create the demand and creating the demand, you've got to get it into the code even before it becomes a consensus document in some way. And so I agree with him there. It's just got to be done strategically and we're already working to get some language. Is it 2027 building code?

Mark Gies: Yep, 2027.

Dustin Haddock: Get some language in there referencing it, but that's still a good way away. Three years, four years? Three years.

The other part is getting manufacturers certifying their products to the subject because now you put all that time and money in testing, engineering and listing to the subject or certifying yourself to the subject. You go out and make waves about it and get it on the AHJ's radar and get it on billing officials' radar even before it's in the code. And LA County's very good at staying on top of that kind of stuff. So they actually read the standards.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: They're ahead of it.

Mark Gies: Yeah. I think it's a quintessential push and pull where you just have... It's created, then some people demand it, then more people demand it, then it changes. Then it's sort of a very fluid iterative process. And we've lived through that with 2703, exactly lived through that, and now it is where it is, very, very popular. And 2703A will likely go through a very similar process.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: The same thing. Well, gentlemen, wow, my head's spinning a little bit, but it's great. I think this is so educational and so important for everyone to understand, to know, to be on the lookout for. So thank you. And I know we will be having a lot of information from S-5! coming through your directory talking about these standards. We're going to have some more podcasts where we're going to be continuing to talk through this, so I just have to say thank you so much for all the information

Dustin Haddock: And yeah, you know us. We're going to put it on our YouTube. Patrick does an amazing job and clearly identifies stuff with S-5! University, and it's done from a neutral standpoint. I get we have competitors. It's just the world. Competitors make you sharpen your skills.

Mark Gies: We're friends with a lot of competitors.

Dustin Haddock: And it's important, and so we have that S-5! University that's going to incorporate a lot of this stuff. So if you want to know more, it's there.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. And it is so easy to find. The S-5! University is so cool. You can find it in the S-5! directory on RoofersCoffeeShop and MetalCoffeeShop. So check it out. That's where you can take this one step further from this podcast and really learn a lot and get your business ready. So gentlemen, thank you so much.

Mark Gies: Thank you, Heidi. It's a pleasure.

Dustin Haddock: Thank you, ma'am.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Thank you. And thank you all for listening. Great stuff for your business. We're going to keep bringing it. Thank you. Please check out the directory for S-5! where you can find a lot of this information and it'll also get you to the S-5! University where you can just really, really understand what's going on with solar attachments and metal roofing.

Also, please check out all of our podcasts under the read, listen and watch navigation under Roofing Road Trips, and be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast channel and set those notifications so you don't miss a single episode. We'll be seeing you next time on Roofing Road Trips.

Outro: Make sure to subscribe to our channel and leave a review. Thanks for listening. This has been Roofing Road Trips with Heidi from the rooferscoffeeshop.com.