Coffee Conversations - The Importance of Mental Health Awareness in Roofing - Sponsored by Tremco & WTI - PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of an live interview with Mandy McIntyre and Christee Holbrook of WTI & Tremco.You can read the interview below or listen to the podcast.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Good morning and welcome to Coffee Conversations. We're going to be starting in just a few minutes, so pour your coffee, get ready. This is going to be an amazing conversation today.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Good morning, everybody. We're going to be game started in just a minute. Welcome to Coffee Conversations. Be sure to pour your coffee and get ready. This is going to be a great conversation.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Good morning, Ray July.

Ray July:
Hi.

Heidi Ellsworth:
We see you on the chat. And good morning. I see a lot of great people coming in. Thank you so much for being here. We can get started in just a minute.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Okay. Let's get going with this morning's Coffee Conversation. My name is Heidi Ellsworth, and I am the president of RoofersCoffeeShop, and I am honored to be here today to moderate and have this amazing conversation on mental health. You are all going to be blown away, I tell you, by these ladies who are here today to help us talk through this very important conversation.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Before we get started, I do want a little bit of housekeeping. Remember this is being recorded, so you'll be able to share this, you'll be able to get this out, it'll be on demand within 24 hours or less. Also, this is a Q and A, so this is questions and answers. We want you, throughout the whole show, don't wait till the end. We want you asking questions, chatting what your thoughts are. We want to have a great conversation, so whether you want to just chat within the chat box, if you're interested in coming on, Megan can bring you on to the conversation in a live video, or we can even bring you on an audio, however you would like to you that, we want you engaged.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And finally, we want to be sure that you're sharing this out to everyone. This is an incredibly important topic, so just be sure... As we get this done, it comes on demand to share this because I tell you what, there's nothing more important than it's going on in our world right now than taking care of each other and taking care of everybody.

Heidi Ellsworth:
So, I really want to, before we get started, say a huge thank you to Tremco and WTI who are our sponsors today. For those of you who may not know the Tremco, WTI companies and families, they are amazing. And when you talk about people putting people first, that's what happens at Tremco. I see it every single day, they care about their folks, they work with them every day, and they have some of the strongest diversity within entire roofing industry. So, thank you so much, Tremco and WTI for being our sponsors today, and understanding what an important and critical topic mental health is.

Heidi Ellsworth:
So, let's get started. First, I would like to introduce Mandy McIntyre out of Cleveland, Ohio. Good morning, Mandy.

Mandy McIntyre:
Good morning, Heidi. Thank you so much.

Heidi Ellsworth:
It is so great to have you here today. I love these conversations and you always bring the best ones to the table.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Before we get started, why don't you go ahead and just introduce yourself to everyone, and tell everyone about your company and about your career.

Mandy McIntyre:
Yeah, sure. I'm Mandy McIntyre in Cleveland, Ohio. I'm going into my ninth year there and I'm very much involved with National Women in Roofing. I have a passion for diversity, equity and inclusion for topics such as mental health, leadership, women's empowerment, so these conversations are so important to me, and I think they're important to everybody and for the industry as a whole to see beyond the status quo.

Mandy McIntyre:
Obviously, it's a very male dominated industry, so to break the stigma of mental health, to break the stigma of women's gender roles in roofing, and bring these topics to a national platform, Heidi, thank you for just allowing us to have these discussions because they're very much needed, they're very important, and they're very empowering.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Thank you, Mandy. I know, having been in the industry for a long time, we're going to talk about this more. But this was one of those no talks topics, and we're bringing it out of the corners and we're going to shine some bright light on it today, so thank you. Thank you for making it out there.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I also want to introduce Christee Holbrook of Graham Roofing. Christee is amazing. She is the owner of the business. I've got to work with her on National Women in Roofing, and we are just seeing some real, amazing things happening from a different perspective with Christee. So, Christee, welcome to the show.

Christee Holbrook:
Thank you.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And please introduce yourself.

Christee Holbrook:
I'm Christee Holbrook, I'm president and one of the owners of Graham Roofing, which is a commercial industrial roofing company in West Point, Mississippi, very involved in National Women in Roofing, just recently got involved in NAWIC. On a few of the words, workforce development is my passion. Mental health awareness has come into play and since we took ownership. It was a very difficult topic to find help on, so just kind of here, just to share my thoughts and what we had to do and where we're going with it.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I love it. Thank you, Christee, for being here. This is so great, so let's get started. And we already have some comments coming in. There's going to be a couple of slides that we're going to go through with resources at the end, but right now, we are going to get all of us up here. Here we go. Okay.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I also wanted to mention that, of course, we have Megan Ellsworth, our multimedia producer in the background, and she's been putting a lot of this together and she's actually going to join us probably in a half hour or so with some Gen Z perspectives, so we have that to look forward to too. Okay.

Heidi Ellsworth:
We have some great questions that have come in earlier. So, I want to start with you, Mandy. You reached out to me and you said, "This is a topic that I think is so important and we're not talking about it. Heidi, can we talk about it?" So, will you share kind of how that, your journey... You were just talking about what you've been doing, but kind of overall and why you are really bringing this to the forefront and what you're seeing.

Mandy McIntyre:
Yes. We've had mental health issues with our workforce over the years. And pre-COVID, there were issues with substance use. We had to do interventions for a couple of our employees and we struggled with that like, "How do you deal with that?" Because at that point, mental health, it was important to me, but it wasn't... I'm a certified yoga and meditation instructor, so I've always been very holistic in my approach to leadership and employee development, but it didn't quite click with mental health and how you address that. So, we had people with issues and we would just guide them in the right direction, but there wasn't enough.

Mandy McIntyre:
Then, the pandemic hit and there was a real... It glaringly just problem with mental health. So, what I started to do is toolbox talks, and I remember the very first one that I did was owning your feelings. Now, imagine a group of male roofers and their toolbox talk for the week is owning your feelings. At first, there was some little remarks and a lot of eye rolling, but at the end, they were very receptive, so we started incorporating mental health toolbox talks in with our regular safety training.

Mandy McIntyre:
And we had an employee who was in and out of rehab, and I remember the last time I talked to him, I said, "Please take care of yourself. I never want to get the phone call that you're dead." And six months later, I got that phone call. And it was really hard for me, personally, because I was like, "What more could I have done? I failed somewhere." And I know you can't control what people do, but you can do the best that you can to help them.

Mandy McIntyre:
So, I started researching mental health. What can I do to teach myself to help others? So, I got certified in Mental Health First Aid. And literally, a month after I got that done, I had someone come up to me that said, "We're having suicidal thoughts," and they were struggling, and I was able to calmly... Because it's like, when someone said that like, "what do you do?" But I had the tools and I knew what to do. And now, him and I are working together on a path to get him some help, some treatment.

Mandy McIntyre:
And so, it's just been this mounting effect that is just needed. And so, I just want to bring this outside of my bubble into the industry as a whole, because I know if my company is having issues, others are too.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah, exactly. And wow. Okay. So, I want to come back to that Mental Health First Aid too. I really want to talk about that, but before we do that, Christee, you have a very similar story. Can you share exactly... When Mandy came and said, "Will you do this?" And you're like, "Yes, because you've had." Tell us about that.

Christee Holbrook:
I also have had experience with suicide in the workplace, which... We have always heard of it. Construction, number one suicide rate, never had dealt with it until around 2018. And we had an employee who had been in an accident, non-work-related accident, and he tried to come back afterwards, and really struggled between his health and his depression. And I talked to him, "Please go get some help. Talk to someone. Get some counseling."

Christee Holbrook:
He went home for a little while because of some more health issues, and we got the call that he had taken his own life and it was devastating to everyone. I called in a counselor to come in and talk to the guys about what had happened and mental health in general, because again, it was the first time we had ever experienced it. And then, we had another employee who had experienced some mental health problems while he was working, and after he left employment here, he ended up taking his life, so it's devastating. They become like family to us. And try and define the tools to help our employees was very difficult.

Christee Holbrook:
Again, we've set out to, how can we help our employees going forward? What could we have done different? So, that's kind of the mission we've been on.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Exactly to Christee's point, bringing a therapist, doing these things, and it sounds like both of you have started putting that larger plan together for mental health. So, maybe, Mandy, talk a little bit about... I think when you said it the other day, it was the first time I've ever heard of Mental Health First Aid specialist, and hopefully I'm saying that right.

Mandy McIntyre:
Yeah. Yeah. So, it's through the National Council for Mental Wellbeing, and I stumbled upon it. And I love learning. I mean, you can see all my books behind me. I like any kind of training or certification, I'm so into it because when I want to know something, I want to know everything about it. So, I was like, "Mental Health First Aid, what is that?" And basically, it teaches you to identify, understand, and respond to a mental health challenge or crisis.

Mandy McIntyre:
Whether that's mental health with anxiety, depression, suicide thoughts or substance use, it was an eight-hour training and it's a three-year certification. You've heard of first aid training and being certified in first aid, but Mental Health First Aid, this is brand new, and it's something that I think every company should have somebody trained in this to deal with the mental health issues that will arise.

Mandy McIntyre:
It's not if, it's when because they will. And I love it. I love being able to help people, and the buy-in, in return for offering that support, offering the resources, learning to look for the signs is... I mean, it's incredible. You connect with your employees better, you build more trust with them, and they're more engaged, you're empowering them. So, you are just strengthening your workforce by putting in these initiatives.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I love it. Let's talk about feelings, right? That toolbox talk. So, you started with a toolbox talk because really, to get trained as a Mental Health First Aid, that's one thing, but to start talking about it during your toolbox talks out in the field with everybody in your company, how did that work and how did that go over?

Mandy McIntyre:
Maybe there was a little polarization, there were some people that were like, "What are we talking about here? This is roofing. Why are we talking about our feelings?" And then, there was others that you could tell didn't want to really speak up, but were actively listening. And the toolbox talk with owning your feelings, it was addressing that feelings arise, but not attaching yourself to them. So, instead of saying, "I'm angry," you would say, "I am feeling angry." And recognizing those thoughts and trying to not attach yourself to them, because then when you go onto the job site, when you have a foreman that's pissed off, in a bad mood, he was fighting with his wife, he's got things going on with his kids, that is a safety hazard because they're bringing all of that stuff to the job site.

Mandy McIntyre:
So, if you can help people manage their feelings and learn how to deal with them and respond to them versus react, you have a safer workforce, a safer job site. By the end of the toolbox talk, there was a couple of aha moments, so to speak, but there's still lot of work to be done because people are afraid to admit that, "Yes, I have an anger problem" or "Yes, I deal with depression" or "Yes, I deal with anxiety."

Mandy McIntyre:
The more you talk about it, then it's just normal. If someone had diabetes or if someone had cancer, you wouldn't be shy about talking about how to help that person and mental health is no different.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I've had similar experiences. Christee, first of all, have you been bringing that into your toolbox talk to your safety? And also, as you brought therapist in, kind of tell us how your teams responded to that.

Christee Holbrook:
Quiet. When I brought the therapist in, they didn't have a lot to say to him. We encouraged any of them that it was okay to go talk to him privately, if they wanted to. We always keep his number up in case they need to have a session with him. And we have started doing toolbox talks and talking to our foremans about learning to see and identify if someone is struggling because we have had at least two other employees that have struggled with depression and reached out to them to get counseling.

Christee Holbrook:
This is probably going to sound crazy, but we had one employee, and really worked with him, and he asked me to go to one of his sessions with him, so I did whatever it took to help him because I did not want to lose him whether he was working for me or not. And he's not anymore, but I still check on him.

Christee Holbrook:
Again, they become family and we love them, but it has been a struggle to find how to help someone. And then, there's also that struggle with us because we're a small company. Again, everyone becomes like family is, "Where do you draw the line? What's going overboard?" So, it's been a struggle. And again, I'm constantly trying to find tools, and I cannot wait to get certified by Mandy whenever she can train us.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I love that. So, we are already having some questions come in. I want to just be really talking about them as we go, because this is just so poignant.

Heidi Ellsworth:
First of all, Maureen Greeves is on and she says that they are honored to be a sponsor. And again, Maureen, you guys, you're great. And Lisa Garcia, also, and Michelle Boykin. Hello, all of you. And John Kenney, and just some truly amazing people. But I really love this question. Now, Blair, I hope I say your last name right, Jagusch, I hope. If I say it wrong, please forgive me. But some really important discussions, thank you for making mental health visible in this industry, which I just think is a huge topic in the fact that we're even talking about it.

Heidi Ellsworth:
For my own personal experience... and I'm not reading now. But for my own personal experience, I know it's like the big secret, right? Nobody talks about it. And we have started a dialogue within our business. This is from Blair, by talking about mental health and the importance of physical health influencing our mental health.

Heidi Ellsworth:
That's huge because I really believe... You said that upfront, Christee, that he had an accident, he was sick, he couldn't do what was normally he would do, and that just led to that mental health, and with the injuries that we see in roof... Can you maybe talked that a little bit, Christee?

Christee Holbrook:
He has an offsite injury, but we tried to bring him back as quickly as we could. He wanted to come back to work. He needed to come back to work, and he knew that... Mentally, he needed to come back to work, but when he came back to work, he realized he couldn't be out on the job site, so we did try to bring him into the shop. Really worked with him to try to keep him here, keep him busy, but also paying close attention to his physical problems he was having, but he just couldn't do it and went home. And we don't know why, we didn't know anything. It was just very devastating.

Christee Holbrook:
But one of our other employees, I try to keep him working because I do think it's important. If you go home and you go to bed, it just feeds your depression, so stay busy, stay working, but it's challenging.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And it just kind of brings to mind, I'm thinking about, we are an aging industry, right? This is one of the reasons we're working so hard is to bring the next generation in, to let them understand that we can talk about these issues and stuff.

Heidi Ellsworth:
But when you think about older men who maybe cannot do what they used to do on the roof, that is a point of pride. And for women too. I mean, as we get older, it's like, "I used to be all to do this, and now I can't." So, there's a mental health issue within that and depression that comes, and it seems like if we can break down some of these stigmas and barriers of what is productive, and roles, and all through technology, through mentoring, through advisory, Mandy, have you seen some of that as you're trying to bring that aging, but also staying relevant?

Mandy McIntyre:
Yeah. So, what we do, we have Wellness Wednesdays, and it's an intercompany platform that we post. I post a tip every Wednesday for physical and for mental health, so it'll be the benefits of sleep, the benefits of getting enough water, nutrition. We have yoga every Wednesday to move your body, and it's a gentle all level accessible yoga class.

Mandy McIntyre:
And then, another thing is having your self-care resources. When you talk about self-care, people think, "Oh, you're just lounging around," but that's really not it. Self-care is, what hobbies do you enjoy? What do you like to do that makes you feel happy? And it's having a list of your self-care strategies readily available.

Mandy McIntyre:
So, when you're having a bad day, you just go to your list. And part of this was from my Mental Health First Aid training, because as part of being certified in Mental Health First Aid is making sure your own mental health is good, and self-care is one of the biggest things that they discuss. And so, I've tried to incorporate that with our employees to let them know that you need to take care of yourself, because when you're taking care of yourself physically, spiritually, emotionally, then that helps your mental health as well.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And I'm going to speak more from an older generation, from a Gen X. There's a stigma against doing that, right? That you're not supposed to do that. You're supposed to be working, it's supposed to be a productive time.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Well, I'll tell a secret from my thing. I like to read science fiction. I like to read things that have zero to do with business, and I always feel guilty like, "I really should be reading a business book." But no, that's my quiet time, that's my escape time. And I don't think people, I think there was... Yeah, go ahead. I'll quit talking here, because it seems like that was something that we were told.

Mandy McIntyre:
Yeah. And I think that's part of breaking that stigma too, is that mentality that you always have to be working, you always have to be improving. But the downtime of your day, that's your reset. That's like saying to somebody, "Don't sleep." If you don't sleep, you're not going to function well.

Mandy McIntyre:
Well, if you don't take care of yourself with things that bring you joy, that make you happy, that aren't work-related, you're not going to function as well, and it's breaking that... That's a whole another stigma that needs addressed, so that's why I really advocate for self-care, that it is not being selfish. If anything, you are enabling yourself to do your job better, to take care of your family better, to take care of your company better and everybody you know.

Mandy McIntyre:
If you think of when you're in a plane and the oxygen mask, they say, "Put the mask on first before you help other people." It's the same concept. You have to take care of yourself first to be good to anybody else.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right. And Christee, are you finding that? I mean, before we got on here, you were talking about, you have definitely an older employees who have been 30 and 40 years with you, which is so impressive. This is a hard topic to bring up in that generation.

Christee Holbrook:
They don't say a whole lot when we talk about it, the older guys. Again, I'm finding that the younger generation is much more open to talk about it. Those are the ones that we really seen have struggled, brought them in and talked to them, "You need to go get some help. How can we help you? I can recommend someone. We have counselors."

Christee Holbrook:
I have a guy coming in this month to do a mental health awareness talk towards the end of the month, so we're getting there. We're definitely getting there. It just seems to be the younger generation is more open to it, but I, myself, have had to... I think the more you get to know yourself, then you can kind of understand what you need for wellness like, "I need to rest on the weekends." I also like to read books, easy reads, that mean nothing. I don't have to think about them because when I go home at night, I'm mentally exhausted, so it's just talking about all this and making people aware. And I think the more you talk about it, the more people are aware of it.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. And unless it becomes a taboo to talk about. Brad Bevan, thank you for being on here. Brad said, "Can you share the resource for the mental health certification? I like the comparison. You have first aid training, but what about Mental Health First Aid training?"

Heidi Ellsworth:
Mandy, I think we have a slide on that towards the end, but if you want to talk about that real quick.

Mandy McIntyre:
Yes. So, I'm actually in the process of getting my instructor certification, so that I can then certify others for Mental Health First Aid, and it's through the National Council for Mental Wellbeing. And so, they have guidelines for how you have to certify someone in Mental Health First Aid. But what I want to do with it is make it construction-focused with mental health toolbox talks, a Mental Health First Aid kit for every truck and every foreman, which is just a resource guide and a quick little outline of what to do if there's a challenge or crisis. What are the symptoms that you might be looking for and how to address them?

Mandy McIntyre:
It's not complete yet, but if you message me, follow me, connect with me on LinkedIn, I'll be putting up a newsletter, a mental health newsletter starting in June, and then I'll be offering the training starting in June or July too. So, I started compiling a list. There's a lot of interest and I'm so excited that people are interested in it. So, yes, message me, Mandy McIntyre on LinkedIn, and I will add you to my newsletter list, and get you more information for the Mental Health First Aid certification.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And Mandy is also an RCS influencer and has a directory on RoofersCoffeeShop. Mandy, we got to make sure we get... I would love to share all of that out, so people can find you, however we do this. I love this. Mandy, congratulations.

Mandy McIntyre:
Thank you.

Heidi Ellsworth:
We have a question from Alice, and Alice Reynolds, who said... Hi, Alice. "How do you create an environment where employees feel like they can be open in front of the other employees? For example, what if there are some employees who bully others for being different? Thank you both for sharing your experiences. I know that everyone here hopes that it doesn't take losing a life before being active in their employees' mental health." Great question.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Christee, you want to start with that one?

Christee Holbrook:
To how to be more open in front of other employees? Was that the question?

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. And kind of taking on the bullying. And we do have some of that everywhere, people who bully others. And how do they talk about that openly?

Christee Holbrook:
I don't know if they do it yet, openly. They know they can always come to us and we'll address it. Our employees come to us with all kind of things, personal, work, and we do try to help them and address it. But bullying, if we have it, we don't really see it, we'll hear about it.

Heidi Ellsworth:
That's the problem, right? That's what we need to be able to open. Talk more about that, Mandy. Have you dealt with that?

Mandy McIntyre:
Yes. And actually, starting next week, we're doing a foreman leadership training program to address these kind of topics. Sometimes, I think it's best to address certain things privately, but to also address it in a public way, so that you're addressing it more as, "This is our company culture. These are the things we are hearing. We're not pointing fingers, but it doesn't align with our values."

Mandy McIntyre:
And so, then, you take that statement and you put it into action. So, we're doing a foreman leadership training, and talking about when you talk down to somebody, when you talk behind someone's back, you are breaking trust in the team. And the number one foundation of teams is trust, so once you start breaking that down, you don't have much of a team.

Mandy McIntyre:
One time, there was an issue, and I just called this impromptu meeting, and I was kind of heated, I was a little pissed, but I was just like, "Someone's broken trust. I don't like it. We need to fix it. This doesn't align. If your values don't align with our company values, then you don't need to be a part of this company. But if you want to be a part of this company, then you have to be a good person and you have to do better." And no one's infallible to making comments or whatever, but when you see it become a habit, then it's an issue. And then, that's when it needs full attention before it grows into something bigger.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And getting it early, getting early right there, early about it.

Mandy McIntyre:
Yeah. So, just get everyone together and address it.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. Yeah. I love it.

Christee Holbrook:
I think our crews, which we have a couple of crews, and I think they have their own language within their crews, if that makes sense. Sometimes, I think that it's very difficult for someone new to get on a crew and learn how they do things, learn how they joke around with each other. So, we always try to talk to them about that upfront. And again, just encourage if you feel like you're being bullied or someone's talking down to you or whatever it is, come in and talk to us individually.

Christee Holbrook:
And again, yes, we will address it as a whole, as a company, but we don't address it in front of everyone like Mandy said. It's more of a private one-on-one kind of...

Mandy McIntyre:
There was an issue once with the foreman, and Christee make a great point. Someone new whose feelings were hurt, so I talked to the foreman, I said, "Hey, you said this. This person is telling me that it really upset them, what you said." And the foreman was like, "I didn't mean it that way. I feel bad. I don't want him to feel that way."

Mandy McIntyre:
So, just having those conversations in a private setting, and then you bring them together, and you just kind of clear the air because sometimes how people interpret things versus how they're meant to be addressed don't coincide.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. And that's a really good point because Christee... I mean, again, I'm sorry, I don't mean to go back on the generations, but the older generation may be saying something that they don't think there's any problems with, and they're just like, "Blah, blah, blah, moving on and going." And then, all of a sudden... I mean, I've had this happen to me and somebody's like, "Well, that was politically incorrect. That was insulting." And I'm like, "I didn't mean that." That's why I'm always like, "We have to learn."

Heidi Ellsworth:
The older generation has to learn from the younger generation as much as vice versa on how... There's new languages out there or old languages like on the crews, I like that, Christee, because it's true. They all know. They've all been working together. They got it.

Heidi Ellsworth:
[Tom Trulson 00:36:41], thank you. His question is, "If a company is currently experiencing these issues and they don't have anyone certified on staff or as a resource at the moment, what is a good first step in helping said employees?" Great question. Mandy, you want to start that one?

Mandy McIntyre:
Yeah. I think the best first step is to start incorporating toolbox talks with Mental Health First Aid, and you can Google them and find them. I'm going to have them as part of my newsletter that's coming out. But that is the best first step, because safety is not just physical safety, mental safety is just as, if not more important... Again, because if you come in and your head's not in the game, you are more susceptible to an injury because you're not paying attention.

Mandy McIntyre:
So, the toolbox talks with anything mental health related, would be my number one suggestion.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I think I froze. Okay. Sorry about that. And I missed Mandy too, but...

Mandy McIntyre:
Oh.

Heidi Ellsworth:
No. But go ahead, Christee. Also, on that same issue, what are some first steps, if you don't have some of these other resources in place?

Christee Holbrook:
Well, again, we knew of a counselor, he does all kind of counseling, drug, alcohol, depression. We reached out to him, again, brought him in to talk to our guys and provided the resources if they needed to find him and should they need help.

Christee Holbrook:
We also have community counseling, which is a local group that we can bring in, send people to. We also have a couple of other... If they're looking for help, that's how we can help them, by giving them the resources outside to get help and really encourage it. And again, we let people be off indefinitely until they could get their mental health to where it needed to be, so they could come back to work.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I just have to say, I think that is so important because in our family, we have histories of panic and anxiety, so as a family, we've started having strong discussions about this. But I have tell you, one of the hardest things to do is find good counselors or find good therapists, right? Because it's almost worse when that's not so good. So, to have your company invest in time in finding somebody to help employees, I think that says a lot. Go ahead, Mandy.

Mandy McIntyre:
Oh, no. I was going to say, if you have an HR department, whatever benefit package that you offer, start to look into, what are the mental health resources within the medical benefits, and having those readily available for your team to utilize.

Mandy McIntyre:
And there's a lot of free stuff too. I have a whole list of websites and stuff that I can try to put in the chat while we're talking here, but like Mental Health America, National Association of Mental Illness, MentalHealth.gov, Construction Industry Alliance for Suicide Prevention, Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration.

Mandy McIntyre:
I mean, they are out there and you can find a ton of information to just start as a starting point for how you're going to address these. And even if it's just as simple as... We have some printed posters throughout our warehouse and where our training room is and in the office, that just has some resources so that... The more you see it around, then the more people have just become comfortable with it, so I would put some posters up, some flyers up.

Heidi Ellsworth:
That's great. I just looked down at my messages as I'm reading these. We have 25 new messages, so I'm going to read a couple of these. But Wendy and Marvin just came through, and her comment was trailblazing in industry. She said that us three are her business crushes. So, there, thank you, Wendy, you're so sweet.

Heidi Ellsworth:
We are the family that our employees need. Thank you for caring and for answering a call in mental health. Jess Cress, "Thank you for all, addressing this highly important and highly overlooked issue." And Megan, "Thank you for responding so much." Kaylee, I hope I said your name right. Let me get that. Her question was, "How to influence or encourage an older generation executive team to buy into mental health awareness initiative?"

Heidi Ellsworth:
Wow, that's a great question. Mandy, you're nodding.

Mandy McIntyre:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that goes back to your company culture, and your leadership team has to set the tone. It has to go from top down and vice versa, so that it's all encompassing. I think doing some lunch and learns, highlighting the importance, highlighting stats.

Mandy McIntyre:
I like to discuss things from historical and factual aspects, so when you start putting these statistics out there and you put in how this is actually affecting you, and there's stats out there at what it... If someone has a mental health issue and they hurt themselves, how much is that going to cost your company?

Mandy McIntyre:
And there's actually OSHA. You can actually get a recordable for mental health through OSHA. I did some research, and if there's work-related stress or mental illness, it can be recordable if the employee provides the employer with an opinion from a physician or other licensed health professional, stating that the employee has a mental illness that is work-related. So, if we talk about toxic company culture, toxic management, toxic leaders. If someone is feeling fear and anxiety just from walking through your doors, that could be an OSHA violation.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Violation. Yeah.

Mandy McIntyre:
It really can. These things are real. They're not snowflake topics. They're not flop topics. They are real topics dealing with employees that are human. And I think, sometimes, we forget that our workforce, our employees are human beings, and you have to invest in their professional and personal growth. That's how you're going to get better engagement. That's how you're going to get employees. That's where I go into, "There is no labor shortage, there's just a lack of good leadership."

Mandy McIntyre:
So, yeah, I think you can bring these topics to light, if you bring it in a factual, statistical manner.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Mandy McIntyre:
With an older generation.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right. I kind of want to hit on that too, because of course, first thing is people, and people are the most important thing. But for Kaylee, I'm going to say, from a business side of it and on having been in much to what Mandy's saying, and Christee's nodding, having been on that side where I've had to present things that are more emotional, that are harder topics to talk about, you need to come with numbers and need to come with statistics.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And in today's world, when we are talking about labor shortage, you need to talk about recruitment and retention, because if you are talking about mental health, you're going to recruit people who realize you have a diverse and progressive and open company. You're going to bring in more of the younger generation, and you're going to retain the people who are already there.

Heidi Ellsworth:
So, I think more business numbers and stats, and I hope nobody takes that the wrong way, will actually make a bigger influence, I think, on an older-

Mandy McIntyre:
Absolutely.

Heidi Ellsworth:
... leadership side. Yeah.

Mandy McIntyre:
Absolutely.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. Okay. We're going to keep going just because we have so... I can't believe this is so awesome. John Kenney says, "As a boomer, I can say, we were raised to never talk about it." John, I'm with you. That was my family too. "It was a sign of weakness that was such poor advice for our generation, so glad to see this now being addressed in our industry."

Heidi Ellsworth:
Christee, I just love for you to kind of comment on that too, because I think that is so true.

Christee Holbrook:
Well, I was just sitting here thinking, because our former owners were all boomers and it's not something I don't think we ever talked about. It just was not talked about. The other thing I was sitting here thinking is that, a lot of times, when the foreman comes to us and complaining about something, do you know what that person's facing at home? And that's something that we used to not ever talk about, what's going on in their home life?

Christee Holbrook:
Oh, so and so, you may not know it, but so and so's sister passed away, and that's probably affecting the way they're acting or we're working. But that's not something we used to talk about, but it is something that we talk about a good bit now.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. I know my parents, my husband's parents, you never talked about it. That was just like, you never talked about. All of a sudden, now, as a Gen X generation, we started talking about it and we started needing to talk about it, and that it was hard, that journey was hard. And now, we got to try to kind of break our old stigma, as John is saying, and be open.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And so, that's a challenge that I think shouldn't be pooh-poohed for management because it is hard. When you're kind of brainwashed one way growing up, and then all of a sudden you got to come somewhere different. So, as you kind of taking that to your management, I think it's important to remember there's all sides to help people with what they're dealing with.

Christee Holbrook:
The other thing is, I think, even the ones that have come to us and... Again, this is something that's new to us. We've been dealing with it since 2018. We didn't punish them, which would be the worst thing you could do.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Christee Holbrook:
We didn't say, "You're fired. You're having all these issues and you can't work here anymore." We did not do that. Communicate with us. Let us know what's going on. Now, if you just, all of a sudden don't show up, and you're not communicating, there's a different story. But talk to us. You don't have to tell us details, but let us know what's going on, communicate with us. And I think they start to trust you. I think for the most part, our crews trust us, our workers trust us.

Heidi Ellsworth:
The trust of the team, I like that. That's the nugget I'm taking away.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Mandy, there's a great question here I'd like you to... It's from Christine Young. Hi, Chris. How should we respond when asking how someone is doing, and they continually respond, "I'm fine," and you know they are not. That happens a lot.

Mandy McIntyre:
That is a great question, and that does happen a lot. All right. Well, I'll go in this in two ways. One is, I'd be curious. What is the state of the company, as far as company culture talking about these issues? If it's something that's never been addressed or talked about, that's probably going to be the response that you get. I'm fine. I'm fine. Because a lot of people think it's a sign of weakness or they're scared to say exactly what's going on.

Mandy McIntyre:
So, if it's something that's never been addressed as a company, then I think you could then turn that conversation into a lunch and learn or a toolbox talk about, "Hey, we have an open door policy. We are here to support you. These are some resources. We genuinely are concerned that everyone here is doing well, both in and out of the workplace." And that's one way you could kind of skirt around the I'm fine issue.

Mandy McIntyre:
Or another idea would be, "I've noticed some signs or symptoms, would you want to go to lunch? I just want to talk to you," and offer going to lunch or breakfast or something to make them feel comfortable because... And it depends on where you're having this conversation. If you're asking someone, "Hey, how are you doing?" And there's people walking by, they're about to go out the door to a job site, they're probably not going to get into it. But if you get them one-on-one in a more relaxed, calm atmosphere, you'll probably get more information from them.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Ah, that's very true. So, this question just came through from Danielle Klaus, and I think this is a great one, on bullying versus microaggressions from coworkers. How do you kind of... I mean, they're both bad. How do you kind of deal with that? Mandy, go ahead.

Mandy McIntyre:
To me, they're really one and the same. I mean, whether you're intentionally doing it or unintentionally doing it, a comment that hurts is a comment that hurts. Perception is reality, so however people are taking that is what it is.

Mandy McIntyre:
What was the question? How do you address that?

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. Well, it's just Danielle, and she just... I think it was a great thing is like, there's bullying versus microaggressions. How do those microaggressions kind of... I mean, basically, I guess, in toolbox talks, you're going to need to talk about both, right? That-

Mandy McIntyre:
Well...

Heidi Ellsworth:
... there's out and out bullying, and then there's people who are just like picking in microaggressions.

Mandy McIntyre:
Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Mandy McIntyre:
Microaggressions just reaffirm these stereotypes and old antiquated mindsets, I think, in regards to gender, to religion, to race. A lot of times, people say things that they don't even realize that is just reinforcing these bad ideas. So, I think that goes into DEI training. What are you doing as a company to address diversity, equity and inclusion?

Mandy McIntyre:
I mean, a lunch and learn on microaggressions would be phenomenal, because most people probably don't even understand what they are. And so, an example would be like, "Oh, stop crying. You're acting like a little girl." Okay. But you have women on your team. So, now, you're equating weakness to being a woman, that's a microaggression, and that's just reinforcing a male dominated industry and patriarchy and all of that.

Mandy McIntyre:
DEI training and just having a zero tolerance policy for bullying. And also, you got to teach people what's right and what's wrong, what's acceptable and what's not. We'll go from there.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And I think we're still going to have some of that out there when people just don't even... I mean, they should realize, but they don't realize.

Mandy McIntyre:
Yeah. And a lot of times, once you talk to somebody and you bring it to their attention, they're like, "Wow, I never thought about it that way. Or I never realized." And we all make mistakes. I've said things that I was like, "That probably wasn't the best thing."

Mandy McIntyre:
And so, you can't be afraid to make mistakes because you're going to make mistakes in anything controversial or contentious. So, with diversity, equity and inclusion with mental health, you might say the wrong thing, but that's your learning opportunity to grow.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I've had a lot of learning opportunities because you just... especially when you're just kind of out there and you're talking, you're coming from thing. And I think this next comment from Ian Edwards is great, it says, "To me, the crux here is normalizing asking for help and responding appropriately when help is requested."

Heidi Ellsworth:
Would you have anything to add or elaborate on regarding this thought, leadership setting the example, Christee?

Christee Holbrook:
I think leadership has to set the example. Again, we are all a family. I say we cry like family, we fight like family, we love like family. We openly talk about things that are going on, and I think that they see that. And so, they realize that they can come to you and talk to you about what might be going on in their life, which is something we've, again, really tried to stress to our employees and our foremen. You don't know what's going on in someone's life. You don't know how someone rephrase. I think I saw a comment. Sometimes, we are their only family, so just listen.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. I'm not even going to have time to read all these comments, but I'm just going to say Lisa Briggs came in and she says, "You guys need to read the comments, Christee and Mandy, because..." Thank you, Lisa, for being here. Such great comments. Chris came back and said, "Thank you for your answer." Wendy just came in, "Creating a culture."

Heidi Ellsworth:
Oh my gosh, there is so much here and it's awesome. We will get these comments and we will keep this conversation going. I am going to flip over real quick and share the PowerPoint again, so that we make sure we get all of these resources out there for everybody. Maybe we can kind of talk through some of this.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Here is the information on the suicide prevention lifeline. And Christee and Mandy, you were going to talk a little bit about this and what's going on with this number. So, maybe, Christee, do you want to start?

Christee Holbrook:
I'm going to let Mandy start on.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Okay. Yeah. [crosstalk 00:55:17].

Christee Holbrook:
She knows more about this.

Mandy McIntyre:
Yeah. So, this is the suicide prevention lifeline. There is a number that is in Spanish too, that I can put in the chat. And this'll be part of this newsletter that I'm putting out, because there's so many resources that people just don't know where they are.

Mandy McIntyre:
This is the suicide prevention lifeline, but there is something coming out in July of this year, 988. And so, what 988 is, it's basically the new 911. So, everyone knows if there's an emergency, you call 911. Well, 988 platform is the mental health emergency line nationally.

Mandy McIntyre:
Literally, every mental health organization is involved. The government's involved. It's the national platform, so that people can call if there is a challenge or crisis, and that will be rolled out in July. I think there are some states that have it already, but the goal is to make it as known as 911, and it's just 988, and it's all mental health related.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Wow, that is cool.

Mandy McIntyre:
Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And the fact that this is actually happening, that people are understanding the importance of this, and we have a number, 988.

Mandy McIntyre:
Yeah. Well, it started in 2020. The pandemic brought a lot of this out, and then everyone got on board.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. I love it. Okay. Prevent construction suicide, here's another resource. Let's talk about that.

Mandy McIntyre:
This is a great resource. There's toolbox talks on there, I believe. It gives them information as to why the construction industry is more susceptible to suicide, and also to substance use. And they talk about things like high stress work environments, remote work environments, the tough guy mentality, the physicality of the job where opioids are prescribed, and then that leads to addiction. So, this is a great resource that I think everyone should check out, for sure.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I think we need another hour just to talk about-

Mandy McIntyre:
I know. Let me give you part two.

Heidi Ellsworth:
We're going to have a part two. We're going to keep going on this because there's just so much. Here's the 988 information. And like we said, this is all being recorded. We're going to have all of this online, so if you're scribbling away, that's good. Okay.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Ray July is on, and she has some awesome comments in here. Ray and Jess both, leaders of our diversity, DEI committee with National Women in Roofing, Mandy, that you're on. And then, Christee just recently started on the executive team of National Women in Roofing. You guys are doing amazing things.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Talk just a little bit about the real roofing and some of the support that's coming from National Women in Roofing. Mandy, maybe you can start.

Mandy McIntyre:
Yeah. So, real roofing, it is a diversity, equity and inclusion training program for the roofing industry. We are in our cohort phases of pilot programs, but we're looking to get this rolled out this summer. It will have an affordable price point. It is approximately a month's worth of lessons that you get text to your phone, and you learned all about things like microaggressions. A plethora of information that will help both employees and employers recruit, retain, engage your workforce, become a better company, and really just elevate the industry as a whole.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. It's going to be amazing. And Christee, you've been on membership with National Women in Roofing, you're moving on to the executive team. This has been a topic all along that National Women in Roofing has been passionate about.

Christee Holbrook:
It has been. I've been doing the training. It's eyeopening. It's exhausting, sometimes. I'm thinking, "Oh my God, everything that I'm doing is wrong." And then, the one thing I said, "I like to talk it out and I have to think about it, and then go back and look at it again sometimes." But talking it out with other people helps me also, but it's going to be amazing. I think it'll be great for companies to do it as training, as a whole, so they can talk things out. And I think it's going to be great.

Heidi Ellsworth:
One of the roots of... and just one, there are so many that come down to genetics and everything else, injuries, physical injuries. But one of the roots of poor mental health is misunderstanding and prejudice and meanness... Sorry, if that's the right word, but by this kind of... Some of you are wondering like, "Well, how did DEI-Allison come into this?" It's because this is kind of the start of helping strong mental health in kindness, and in understanding each other. Mandy, you were about ready to say something.

Mandy McIntyre:
Yeah, no. I mean, you think about major thought leaders like Gary Vaynerchuk or Brené Brown leading with empathy, leading with kindness. That doesn't equate to weakness, that is actually one of the most powerful things you can do for yourself, for your employees and for your company. So, these DEI initiatives correlate completely to mental health in a strong, healthy, viable, engaged workforce.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. And I just realized, Megan, you want to pop on here for one second?

Megan Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
We have two minutes left. We got so wrapped up. We should have brought you in. Megan, some comments from Gen Z.

Megan Ellsworth:
I think everyone should go to therapy, and it's difficult to find a good therapist, but it's definitely doable and there are a lot of online resources where you can find a good therapist that works for you and works with you. And I think it's extremely important that everyone goes to therapy. Even if you think you're fine, you're probably not. That's my thought.

Heidi Ellsworth:
There you go. There you go. And that shows also the importance for this next generation, right, Megan? That you guys want these conversations.

Megan Ellsworth:
Oh, yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
We need these conversations. You want the conversations, and so it kind of all starts coming together.

Megan Ellsworth:
Absolutely.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Absolutely. Well, thank you. And thank you for all you do on putting all these together. Mandy and Christee, wow. Thank you so much. This has been just powerful. Wait until you read all the notes. Lisa Garcia just said, "A hundred percent agree, Megan, everyone needs a therapist." There we go.

Heidi Ellsworth:
We are going to continue. I just made some notes. We're going to do mental health too in the fall, because we are coming to the end of this season, so stay tuned for that. Again, Mandy, Christee, thank you so much. This has just been powerful.

Christee Holbrook:
Thank you so much.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Thank you. And I want to thank all of you for listening. And please join us in two weeks when Tremco and WTI again sponsor a Coffee Conversations on Safety. It is going to have Trent Cotney, talking from the legal and the OSHA side. We're going to have folks from OSHA. We also have Tony Poleo from Tremco and WTI, who leads all of their infield safety.

Heidi Ellsworth:
This is going to be great. Don't forget Safety Stand Down, May 2nd through the sixth. We're going to be talking about it on the 12th and what it'll happen.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And I just want to thank Tremco and WTI, again, for sponsoring today. I mean, talk about leadership, and industry, and thought leadership of being a sponsor for mental health. I can't say enough, and I've seen you all on there. You guys are amazing. And next time, we'll talk Safety.

Heidi Ellsworth:
So, keep that conversation going, pour a cup of coffee, and we'll see you next time on Coffee Conversations.

Christee Holbrook:
Thank you.

Mandy McIntyre:
Thank you.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Thanks.