Coffee Conversations: Navigating EPA Roofing Regulations - PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with IB Roof Systems with Jason Stanley, Deb Mazol, Trent Cotney and Tammy Hall. You can Read the transcript, Listen to the podcast or Watch the webinar.

Heidi Ellsworth: So, welcome everybody to Coffee Conversations. My name is Heidi Ellsworth and Coffee Conversations are brought to you by Roofers Coffee Shop. We have an amazing panel today, some amazing topics all around regulations and the EPA. We're very excited for this panel and we're very excited to have all of you here. So before we get started with the introductions, let's go ahead and do a little bit of housekeeping.

So this is being recorded and it will be available within 24 hours. Please share it, get it out there. This is the kind of information that we need to be looking at and talking about in the roofing industry. We also, as always, will have the chat open, so please let us know who you are, where you're from, what's happening and be sure to ask questions as we go along with your comments and thoughts.

One of the most important is our sponsor today, IB Roof Systems. We are thrilled to have them not only sponsor this, but really be the leader in this topic, working on a number of topics that you're going to hear about and really being the advocate of the industry. So IB Roof Systems. Thank you so much. And speaking of IB Roof Systems, I would like to welcome Jason Stanley to our panel today. Jason, first of all, thank you for sponsoring and thank you for this amazing topic.

Jason Stanley: Thank you, Heidi. We're pleased to be here and this is important for not only our own company, but for the industry at large, and there's a lot of really critical topics. So pleased to have the support of Tammy and Deb and Trent on the call today. These are truly, really wise people that I'm just delighted to surround myself with, with great people in this industry.

Heidi Ellsworth: I'm feeling pretty humble myself. This is a great group today. This is amazing. And so Jason, if you could just introduce yourself and tell us just a little bit about IB Roof Systems, that would be great.

Jason Stanley: Yeah, Jason Stanley, I'm the CEO of IB Roof Systems. Been in the roofing industry my entire life, specifically in PVC, but as I've grown in this industry and found ways to serve at the NRCA and the Roofing Alliance, I find myself being pulled into a lot of different arenas such as labor or policy. Certainly the roofing days become something that's very passionate and close to my heart, but then also a lot of giving. This is an amazing and gracious industry and I found that if you can create a pathway for people to give, we have some of the most generous people that are out there. So happy to be a leader in those things within this industry. And happy to be on this call today.

Heidi Ellsworth: I'm so happy to have you. Thank you again. And I would next like to introduce Tammy and welcome. I'm going to say actually, welcome Tammy Hall back to coffee conversations. Tammy, thank you for being here today. Please introduce yourself and tell us about your company.

Tammy Hall: Tammy Hall, with CFS Roofing. We're a large commercial residential contractor out of southwest Florida. I'm excited to be here at Coffee. Our whole staff is logged in. I'm sending them constantly stuff. So I'm excited to be a part of the panel today and look forward to our conversation, Heidi, thank you.

Heidi Ellsworth: And Tammy, you are also the chair of the Government Affairs Committee for NRCA, correct?
Tammy Hall: That is correct, and I'm very honored to have that position. It's been a lot of fun and I have learned a lot and we have a great DC team that works with us and really keeps us on track. So, I want to give a shout-out to Terry, Dwayne and Deb, you guys are awesome.

Heidi Ellsworth: They are awesome. I think we can all agree on that.

Okay. And someone who has been on Coffee Conversations many times and we're always happy to welcome back. Trent, welcome back. Please introduce yourself.

Trent Cotney: Hey, I'm Trent Cotney. I'm a partner and construction team leader at Adams and Reese. I also serve as NRCA General Counsel and general counsel for a variety of other roofing associations. And I'm incredibly happy to be here. I echo Jason and Tammy's comments. I always try to surround myself with people that are a lot smarter than I am. And I think today's panel is a great example of that. Complex topic, but looking forward to talking about it.

Heidi Ellsworth: Wow, it's going to be great, and I am very, very happy to welcome back Deb Mazol to the show. Deb, thank you so much for being here. Please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about NRCA in Washington, D.C.

Deb Mazol: Yeah, thanks, Heidi. Deb Mazol with NRCA out on the DC team on the East Coast. Wisconsin native, and I've been here for about three and a half years. Prior to that, I worked on Capitol Hill for former CEO, Reid Ribble when he was a congressman and on the Senate side and a few other positions. And I'm realizing you need to get an updated headshot because my hair is now brown, so I'll get that to you. But that's me, I swear. A younger, fresher Deb.

Heidi Ellsworth: I love it. I love it. We are actually going to stop the share here so that we can get everybody on screen. We are excited to really start this out and talk about what's going on with the EPA and regulations overall. So we're going to start with our expert, Trent Cotney, who seems to be in the middle of everything that's going on out there. So Trent, what are some of the things that the roofing industry and specifically roofing contractors should be aware of around EPA and overall regulations that are happening right now?

Trent Cotney: Yeah, so look, this is a great topic, and this is front of mind and it should be for every contractor, manufacturer, distributor that's out there. Roofing has turned into sort of a commodity at this point, and there's a big push to move it to sustainability. So a lot of the regulation both on the federal level and on the state and local level, you're starting to see a push towards. That in and of itself is a good thing. What causes me concern is stuff that may impact our industry, impact the systems that we can put on, impact the cost of replacing a roof. All of that is something that we need to be mindful of and make sure that we're actively on top of it. In that regard, I just want to give a shout-out to Debbie and everybody over at NRCA, their lobbying efforts. I'm a pick insider and I can tell you I encourage everybody that's out there to consider donating to the PAC and the lobbying group. If it wasn't for them and the other advocates that are out there, we wouldn't know about half the stuff.

I'm going to hit some of the high points. Obviously, we'll kind of go into a little bit more detail. One thing I want clue everybody into is stay active in your associations, local, state, regional and national. And the reason I say that is a lot of times these cities will come out with new cool roof regulations or other regulations that are environmentally friendly but may impact your business. So it's really paramount that you stay in touch so that you can hear all these things.

The EPA has been fairly active over the last few months. There was a scare with PVC. I know Jason's going to talk a little bit more about that. Some things that I got my eye on, some stuff that causes me at least some pause and to make sure that we're actively monitoring it is VOC thresholds. Obviously there's a lot of roofing products that have these what they call volatile organic compounds in it. Right now, the EPA hasn't engaged in too much activity. There's nothing in the Clean Air Act or anything like that that caused that out, but I have heard through the grapevine that there is some concern there. So it's something that we want to make sure that we're watching out for.

Recycling requirements, this can dramatically increase labor. So one of the things that we're trying to pay attention to, at least on the EPA front, is watching out for what is considered hazardous waste, the disposal requirements, segregation of roofing materials for recycling purposes. There's a lot of guidelines that are already in place that with this from the EPA perspective, but from a roofing contractor standpoint, this can significantly impact the cost of a removal of a roof if you have to put certain items and designate certain items for recycling purposes. Again, a noble call, is something that we shouldn't dismiss, but I think it's something where we need to really combine business and regulatory initiatives to make sure that it's meaningful.

Carbon loads. Carbon capture is a big, big deal. Many of the manufacturers are looking into carbon capture technology for their roofing systems. The EPA has done a $350 million investment in that regard to look for technical assistance and tools as it relates to carbon capture. So you can anticipate over the next few years that there's going to be a big push, especially in federal procurement. The Biden Administration has said that I think their goal is by 2050 to be completely carbon-neutral as it relates to federal building. That is a lofty goal even at 2050. That is something that we want to really watch out for.

And then a couple other things, and obviously I'm hitting the high points. I anticipate we'll talk a little bit more about it. Sustainable management of construction and demolition materials. As I mentioned, sustainability is going to be key. You're seeing more and more manufacturers focusing on longevity of roofing systems. It is going to become a key thing. I think just like you're seeing with DEI policies now and ESG and that kind of stuff, you're going to have sustainability metrics that are going to be used to determine viability of existing roofing systems.

And finally, one thing I would focus on, and I'd like everybody out there to focus on, especially because this could potentially evolve TPO is the EPA is looking at regulating some of the chemicals called PFAS or PFAS that go into TPO and other chemicals like that. Any regulation of those sub-chemicals could potentially impact the type of systems we put on and how it goes on. Bottom line, Heidi, is we've got remain vigilant. And again, encourage everybody, get involved with your associations support lobbying, because that is the only way that your voice can really be heard.

Heidi Ellsworth: And Trent, I really want to highlight what you're saying, is that this is a noble effort to save the Earth, the environmental and that it just needs to be able to work together with business. So if we're not aware and we're not in the conversation, we're not going to be able to find that good balance, really.

Trent Cotney: Yeah. Heidi, let me underscore that point. Here's the critical thing that I want our listeners to understand. This is going to happen. Sustainability, a march towards green initiatives, it's going to happen, and I think it's up to us as a roofing industry to embrace it, but figure out ways that it will work with what we're doing. What I don't want to have happen is I don't want us to not be vigilant and have regulations come that ultimately impact how we do work, and not for us to have a say in it. But I think that just like with technology and the other initiatives that are out there, those contractors that are at the tip of the spear, those manufacturers that are at the tip of the spear are going to be the ones that are most successful. It's only a matter of time before we're focusing almost exclusively on carbon capture, sustainability, all those key terms as it relates to construction.

Heidi Ellsworth: EPAs or EPDs I should say. So with that in mind, we were going to take all of these topics that you just brought up, Trent. We're going to work through them a little bit. And so let's start out with the PVC. I think this is just a great opportunity to really kind see what you said when you're at the tip of the spear for manufacturers, what does that mean? How do you work together and how does that happen? And Jason, you have been in the thick, I remember a year ago getting a phone call from you saying, "Have you heard what's going on?" So talk to us a little bit about PVC and what's happened over the last year and where we're going?

Jason Stanley: If I could even back up just a little bit more, I'm from Eugene, Oregon, and Eugene is a relatively left-leaning city. And there's a lot of initiatives that were started even 15, 20 years ago. IB Roof Systems has been promoting reflective roofs for 20 some years, really promoting this logic of, "Hey, a white roof has these benefits. It was probably 15 years ago, there was a nice project that was being built, and it was owned by one of my neighbors. It was called the Slocum Building. We were a basis of design on the project, and then we got written out of the spec and they replaced it with TPO. And then the mayor came and gave an award to my neighbor for building a PVC-free building. And I thought, "Wow. We've done all these efforts to promote sustainability and recycling, and yet we got written out of this project because we're PVC."

So we've been on this front of trying to redeem PVC as being a long-lasting recyclable sustainable roof. And I think we've made a lot of progress in the last 15 years to where PVC now is the second-largest low-slope roofing product, and I believe it's revered by most roof consultants as one of the most sustainable, longest-lasting roof systems. And then last year we feel like we're making all this progress. We have an EPD now that states, and for those that don't know what an EPD is, it's an environmental product declaration. It's basically the whole life journey of your product, from raw materials to transportation to manufacturing to then transportation to a job site, and then end of life is all captured in your EPD.

And PVC has a glowing score when it comes to their EPD. And then we did some work to demonstrate with a third-party company that you can actually validate that PVC becomes carbon-neutral all on its own after being installed after a few years. So we can actually promote with real data that we have an EPD, and then with some real science and third-party validation that PVC becomes a carbon-neutral product all on its own.

And then a year ago, we're in the cross-hairs of the EPA and may be excluded and deemed a hazardous product. So how do we go from this product that probably is one of the more sustainable, longer lasting, proven products, the second-largest market segment, to suddenly being in the cross-hairs of the EPA and possibly being outlawed as a roofing product? It's scary for manufacturers like ourselves that have built everything into this market segment.

So I think it just became really real for me that the EPA is making decisions on policy that are to our benefit, but if you're not in the know and you're not at the forefront of it, you could be really blindsided by some of these things. But I think we lean on ROOFPAC as well. The ROOFPAC has been exceptional on this topic as well as many other topics. And I think you see the power and the need for having lobbyists and people that are informed on these topics. So that was why we all wanted to have this podcast today to try and create more awareness around this. Because it's not just PVC, it's TPO, it's adhesives, it's different insulations we use today and then it's regulations around sorting and then recycling. There's a lot.

Heidi Ellsworth: There is a lot. And I think, again, by being involved and what's really interesting, and Deb, I would love for you to talk a little bit about this journey with the EPA, because once the industry all got in front of this, and Tammy, I want you to talk about the government affairs too, but Deb, then you really started looking into it, realizing that there were other forces pushing that and now all of a sudden we were able to come together to do some good work. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Deb Mazol: Yeah, definitely. Sometimes when we talk about the EPA and their regulations, it sounds very scary. And certainly with PVC, we were alerted by Jason and our friends with Sika and Spri and the Vinyl Institute. And so we all got together and said, "Wait a second. How did this even come about? How has this not been struck down before?" And so we looked into it a little bit, and in 2014, the Center for Biological Diversity actually petitioned the EPA to regulate discarded PVC as a hazardous waste, and again, all the regulatory burden that comes with that. And they cited two different laws. One was the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act, and the other was the Toxic Substances Control Act. So EPA almost immediately flat out denied any claim under the Toxic Substances Control Act, TSCA, we call it. They quickly denied that, but they left the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act piece of it open-ended. In my opinion, they didn't want to make a politically unpopular decision right then, so they left that lingering out there.

Then in 2021, EPA was actually sued by the center saying, "Hey, we need you to make a decision." They can't compel them to make a decision in their favor, but they can compel them to make a decision. And so what EPA said, "Okay." On January 12th, they tentatively denied that petition and they're set to make a final ruling in April. I looked up right before this call just to refresh my own memory, but I looked up the EPA's comments on that, and they were very strong against any determination that PVC would be considered a hazardous waste [inaudible 00:18:41] specific law. I do feel good about that. We're going to keep our eyes on it.

We came together very quickly with our industry partners to provide comments to the EPA, particularly on how this would affect our business. PVC is not just in roofing, although it's a big part of roofing, but it's in toys, electronics, medical device packaging, straws. So you can see how at the federal level, this would be unworkable even if you had a replacement technology fiber or something else that could replace it. It's just very unworkable. So I feel good about that.

I think NRCA and our partners made a big difference in that. I'll plug in ways to get involved with EPA. When you hear something like this, they have 10 regional offices across the country, and that's usually the best way to find someone, a good more local point of contact than reaching out to the overall EPA to get some answers. There's also a rulemaking process that you can provide comments. The PVC one closed around February, so we're just waiting to see now, but I feel good about it, but don't hesitate to reach out. They want to hear from us as much as... They want to hear from us to make sure they don't make a decision that ends up running counter to their initial goals in the first place. So to Trent's point, figuring out a way, this stuff is coming, but how can we best do it without killing industry and the business itself?

Heidi Ellsworth: Exactly. And April 2024 is when we think we're going to have some final hopefully closure on this.
Deb Mazol: Hopefully, yep. Until the next lawsuit, but-

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah, until the next one. But I think what you're saying too, with bringing these topics forward, it was Jason who put out the red flag, and then that comes to overall obviously the NRCA, but then to the NRCA Government Affairs Committee. Tammy, you have contractors all the time bringing things forward to your committee to say, "This is a problem," right?

Tammy Hall: Absolutely, and that's what... Government Affairs is a very large committee within NRCA. We try to give ourselves three hours. Of course, the team puts a great agenda together what we're seeing as the most impactful and the most important top-of-mind topics that we need to give the board and the executive committee some direction on. But we are constantly zinged, and I'm sure Deb can attest to this, with issues that are relevant to either a region or a state or a geographical area that is really impacting these roofers. It's hard sometimes not to deal with them all. One of the nice things about chairing government affairs for NRCA is I also chair government affairs for our state association. So if they're Florida-driven, I can bring them down to the Florida roofing contractor and sheet metal. And then I also volunteer as the administrator for our Southwest Florida Roofing contractor. So we can even bring it further down.

And that's how contractors need to network, because we all have to be a participants. We all have to have our voice heard. We all have to engage. This tri-level... And many of our contractors who sit around that table are in the same boat that I'm in. So we start at the top and then we trickle down with the spiderweb to keep that initiative. Our EPA office, our region is Tampa, so we can rally, and Trent's in Tampa. So we feel very fortunate to have him right at our fingertips locally, if you will. I'm in Fort Myers, but I'm only two hours south of him. So I think it's so important that the resources that we have and the volunteers that we have sitting on these committees make all the difference in working with their manufacturer partners, our resources in Washington DC and then of course our local folks. Those voices have to be heard. We're a powerful voice when we speak as one.

Heidi Ellsworth: And I think that's what's so important. So Trent, I know you have to leave at the bottom of the hour or... Yeah, at 7:30 Pacific. Just real quick before you take off, I want to dive down into the contractor level like Tammy's talking about, and really what does it mean from fines, from really understanding how it really impacts the contractor? To me, it seems like it's very far away. You have EPA, you have the manufacturers. It's like, "Does it really affect me as a roofing company?" Talk about that and the fines that might be involved.

Trent Cotney: Sure, absolutely. At the top of the show, one of the things I said was vigilance is very important. And the reason I say that is because whether it's local, state or federal, sometimes you will get regulations that have a harsh hammer, penalties that are crazy. One of the things that we're watching now is California has a proposed rulemaking for the lowest permissible lead standard in the world. I think it's like 0.5, and I think EPA allows like 15 for drinking water. It will affect construction. It's that kind of stuff that we have to watch out for.

So to get back to the question, EPA can seek up to $25,000 for each day of continued non-compliance. We've had to defend contractors' tens of thousands of dollars worth of fines. Not just that, but there's the potential reputational impact. If a press release or something like that comes out, you have to deal with it. Oftentimes, we've had contractors that will get involved or be on a project that ends up becoming some kind of Superfund site or something like that, where you've got significant EPA issues related to underground contamination or whatever it might be.

It's important to understand that these aren't just paper laws, there are real world consequences for non-compliance. And it's something that we see being regulated and being enforced. Oftentimes, enforcement comes through, not necessarily through the agency sending out various investigators, that usually comes after either a competitor or a disgruntled customer or someone like that says, "Hey, EPA," or local equivalent, "We've got an issue here. I need you to come inspect this." That's how it all starts. But the fines are significant, not to mention the reputational impact. Nobody wants to be known as someone that doesn't care about the environment. Very important that you take these seriously and like I said, stay vigilant because the laws are constantly changing.

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah. Thank you. And Trent, I know, as you said, you've defended many contractors and manufacturers. You've worked with so many different people on these things, and you're a lobbyist. So as contractors are looking, just since I know you have to leave in like four minutes, as contractors are looking for help, how do they get ahold of you?

Trent Cotney: Oh, sure. They can obviously go to Roofers Coffee Shop and look at the section there on how to get to us. But anybody could just email me direct at trent.cotney@arlaw.com or anywhere social @TrentCotney. I'll probably see you on the road at some point.

Heidi Ellsworth: On different things. And I will say the directory for Adams and Reese, you can find Trent. Trent also is an influencer. Trent's putting articles out all the time on these topics. As soon as they come out, man, they're coming through. Trent, please stay as long as you can, but thank you so much for being here today. We so appreciate you.

Trent Cotney: Thank you, guys. And again, this is a key topic and feel really honored and fortunate to be with this panel today. Some really bright minds on here. This is a topic that needs to be discussed. I really don't see a lot of people tackling this, and this is something that it can absolutely affect your business. Thank you very much.

Heidi Ellsworth: Thank you. Thank you. And I want to get back, because really the NRCA summer meetings were so impactful about talking about these kinds of things. And Jason, you were involved. I was listening in into... I know Tammy and Deb were there too, but Jason, let's start with you. Some of the things that you heard, especially on the recycling front. Not all of this is EPA, some of it is, but it's overall regulations that contractors are really needing to deal with. And maybe talk a little bit how manufacturers are helping.

Jason Stanley: Specifically speaking about the summer meetings in Chicago, I was in a... I'm on several different committees, but I had a gap in my schedule. So there was one on sustainability, and you're always allowed to sit in and listen. And I went in and wow, just wow. Many of the contractors that were in the room were from California, and you want to talk about the government and their impact in raising the cost and increasing the timeline for any project. The regulations that many of these California contractors live under today, not futuristic stuff, stuff that they're living under today, Tammy, I would imagine your company would cringe at the amount of regulation that is in California versus Florida. And while Florida is not an easy state to do business in as far as there's a lot of compliance with assemblies and FM and of course FBC and all these other regulations for how the systems go together, this is just intense government scrutiny.

One of the things that caused me some of the greatest concern was the way that California is chasing after this recycling and mandating that recycling happen on roofs. And going back to Trent's comment, it's needed, we need to do this. But if you're not aware of it in your bid process and you're blindsided by it, this could be devastating on a large project. I heard from one contractor that said the deposit requirement in advance for the recycling was $80,000 on a particular project. So you have to front that money, $80,000, and then as you use their required trucking companies to take it to their required recycling center for that county or city which you're in, you get tickets. And as you get the ticket, you take the ticket back and you get some of your money back. And it is a lethargic process of keeping track of these deposits and bringing them back to get your money back ultimately. So if you track every bit of it, you may get all of your $80,000 back at some point in the future.

But there's other regulations there as well that I heard in that same committee meeting related to generators and using an alternate fuel. And then the regulations. Their generators are tracked much like a car would be where there's a tag number. And if you're not properly tagged and it's not properly registered, they can actually confiscate your generator. If you could imagine you got a crew on site, you got a project going on, it's going to rain tomorrow and they come in and confiscate your generator because it's not properly tagged and not annually inspected? Wow. I don't know, it's certainly not going to happen here in Texas, but in California it's tough to be a contractor.

Heidi Ellsworth: And that's the thing that... What I like is the contractors, and we had some really... Charles Antis and Rudy Gutierrez, there were some amazing contractors there on that committee. And Tammy, I don't know, did some of that start coming into government affairs also?

Tammy Hall: Not on the sustainability side, just because immigration has taken such a forefront on government affairs. We're not getting as much of that on our committee. There's only so much time on everything. But it goes back to Trent's comment, stay engaged. And thank God we have organizations like NRCA, our state associations and our local. When you look at the industry as a whole, Deb, what do we get? About 300 volunteers, 250 volunteers that attend these meetings out of the entire industry. So if we're not networking and communicating and people like Jason are not informing, our industry could very easily be unaware. So I want to just give kudos to all those people whose owners and owners who engage and allow time, because it does take a lot of time to be on these committees when we're all busy that allow time for us to be successful and to protect our industry and the hundreds of thousands of workers we have that need their jobs.

Heidi Ellsworth: That are out there. And I want to circle back around to one of the topics that Trent brought up too, and that's the VOCs. Specifically, hopefully I'm going to say this all right, but the EPA's National Emission Standards for Hazardous Air Pollutants, niche app. So Deb, is that something that you can talk about? What's happening there? Because that really is something, And Tammy, I know you're aware of this too, where roofing materials, VOCs basically, right?

Deb Mazol: Yeah. We'll break them up. Two separate issues for the volatile organic compounds, which affects primarily coatings and ceilings. Right now, there's no current EPA activity on that front under the Clean Air Act, but that's what they probably would point to if they're going to get really aggressive with their regulations. But right now, states can regulate VOCs as long as they at least meet the level of stringency called Reasonable Available Control Technology. I'm not a scientist, but essentially they're just making sure these compounds and these chemicals are safe, and we're monitoring the wider EPA activity.

I know to Tammy's point, it's just Dwayne, Terry and I out in the DC office. So the best way that you can help us is to flag these issues and let us know that, "Yes, this is very important to us, this is important to our contractors." Jason and I know Sika and all of our other industry partners are really great about filtering that information up to us to be able to focus on. That's on the VOCs.

And then the National Emission Standards for Hazardous Air Pollutants, these affect their rules that affect demolition renovation and removal of roof material that could generate significant asbestos fibers. In 1990, EPA published a new rule that added roofing to the notification and work practice requirements. At that point, although, gosh, in 1990, I was five years old, not to brag, but NRCA challenged that requirement in court. So instead of the requirements requiring roofing contractors to notify EPA on all renovation jobs, have a trained worker on asbestos-containing roof products, wetting during operations, mechanical roof cutters, vacuuming, disposing, a lot of different steps that may or may not be needed on that particular site. The settlement that was reached is that the notification requirement would be limited to roofing jobs where it was determined that asbestos-containing material was present.

Generally speaking, probably the year that the initial roof was put on is a good indicator of what materials they used, but we're going to keep an eye on it because a lot of these regulations, they may go away and then creep back up either under a different piece of legislation that they're trying to tie that into or a different administration. We're coming up on a presidential year, they can have very different views of how the congressional intent and what regulations should follow after that. So just keeping an eye on it,

Heidi Ellsworth: I'm probably reaching here, but that falls a little bit in with all the work that you've done on silica too. Tammy talk about that because in Florida there's an air quality in the silica lot rules and regulations that are going on.

Tammy Hall: A lot of these rules are very arduous and a lot of the smaller contractors aren't even aware of them, and trying to get the word out in work with them through our state association and through our local association, just keeping up with all the rulemaking. We're fortunate because we're a larger company, so we have a full-time... A lot of this falls into our safety. So when we get a job, we're going out and assessing the job to make sure there isn't any hazardous there. If there is, we have to put a plan together on how we're going to handle that. The resources to deal with some of these regulations are not available to the smaller companies. We do have a lot of historic structures in Florida, so when you look at a residential roofer who may be dealing with a historic structure in a smaller, they might not even realize they have asbestos there and maybe nobody told them. And so again, it's about this communication.

And I have to be so thankful to the resources that we're able to communicate because they're there and they're easy to get ahold of. And when you have... Trent also works for our state association. So just his association on the national level, on the state level for our local contractors is huge. And he makes himself available. There's lots of ways to understand what they're doing. But even on our local level, we bring these folks in to talk to our local contractors so they can be aware. The concern we have is the resources to the smaller contractors, they're probably the most vulnerable to getting caught or people turning them in because the competition is there. So again, it's our efforts are to make it available, get the information out to them and then provide subcontractors. If they don't have the resources, they can build it into their estimates.

Heidi Ellsworth: It's really interesting too, as we start looking at this from a manufacturer's standpoint, that there is a lot that maybe does have to change, and I'm not to say a lot, but there are products around VOCs, around coating stuff that do possibly need to change going into the future. I know, Jason, you guys have been on the forefront of that with carbon calculators, with your coatings lines. Talk about that, manufacturers, how they are helping the contractors and bringing the products that are going to keep them within regulations?

Jason Stanley: It's a good question, Heidi. There was an initiative that happened, and I think it's been shot down since, but there was some VOC requirements that were so low, this was about three or four years ago, that we didn't have any adhesive products today that met the requirements that they were doing. Spri became very active three or four years ago, and we were able to get a stay on we don't have the technology today to make an adhesive that meets that VOC level. So what they did was gave us five years, five years to go create products that then could meet those VOC thresholds. So there's a lot of work. As manufacturers, we'd like to use the same products we've made forever and that we have experience with and knowledge with, and we know they perform long term, but we are constantly being pushed to change formulations, to change how we produce things and even just move to different products because of these EPA VOC regulations.

There's other things that should cause some concern. You see things happen in places like California and you're like, "Oh, it's over there. It's the left coast. It's okay." But look at reflectivity standards. It was almost 20 years ago CRC came about and we saw reflectivity standards. Now most states, at least most states south of the 45th. And then if it's not within the state regulation, it's within the city ordinance or city regulations that we require white or reflective roofing in different cases. Things that I see in California that caused me pause typically creep across the United States. I think we also have a bit of a precursor in Europe. If you want to go study what's happening in Europe, they're probably 7 to 10 years ahead on some of these sustainability standards that we're now seeing today.

I was recently in the Netherlands and they were talking about the significant change that they've had there with deconstructive standards. So when deconstructive standards took hold in the Netherlands just last year, it changed all the roof assemblies that they were doing in the Netherlands. They could no longer do fully-adhered roof membranes. They could no longer do fully-adhered roof assemblies with adhered insulation and cover board with an adhered roof membrane. Those are systems we're spending millions of dollars on today to get approved through FM and FBC to try and get these wind uplift loads that we desperately need, that our legs could be swept out directly underneath us if the EPA adopts similar deconstructing standards here in the United States.

We have to be careful and we have to look towards what's happening in California that could impact the rest of the United States. We should be looking at things that are happening or already have happened in Europe that have a potential to come across here and be implemented here. I thought, "How crazy would that be for the EPA to adopt deconstructive standards Here?" There's actually a 63-page document on the EPA initiative for deconstructive standards, and apparently it's already been presented three different times. It's been shot down, but it's there and it contains much of the same language that we see in Europe relative to how you could even put assemblies together. So you couldn't get an approval for a particular roof assembly that you may need to meet the FM or some sort of wind upload, but it doesn't meet the deconstructive standards, meaning it can't be deconstructed at end of life.

There's a lot of things that are out there right now that again, I think saying of ignorance is bliss, it's a wonderful thing, but ignorance can be very, very expensive and it can cost you your business or cost you projects or at least some profits.

Heidi Ellsworth: And I think Jason, that's such a great point all the way around because really when you're looking at this, it's not just regulations, but there is this push of are we going to run out of landfills? How do we fill the landfill? How do we deal with this? And so they're talking about the deconstructive to save the landfills, but no one's talking about there are systems there that will last 30 years, that will last longer. So you aren't filling the landfills, or how are we coating? So unfortunately, it seems like, and I'm not in the middle of this, you all know better than I do, but it seems like it becomes a one-sided conversation, not looking at some of the redundancy or performance long-term.

Jason Stanley: Yeah, I think there is this thing of we all want sustainability. True sustainability is resiliency, things that last a really, really long time. I can think of a project we did nearly 18 years ago, I believe, it's the Rayburn House right near you, Deb. It's right downtown. A beautiful, beautiful project. I think it was 1400 squares. That's a fully-adhered polyiso with a fully-adhered cover board and a fully-adhered 80 mil PVC roof. That roof will last 30 plus years. It's warranted for 30 years. And the end of life, you could recover it, or you could put a silicone coating on it that would last another 10 or more years and then potentially coat it again. So you could put one roof on that building and potentially not have to tear that off or replace those insulation components or cover board for the next 40 or 50 years, which that's great.

We go back to these old roofs of, "Oh, I remember when we used to do a cold tar and those roofs lasted 40 plus years." With PVC and proper maintenance and using a heavier gauge like an 80 mil PVC and proper maintenance and then coatings, you can extend the lives of these roofs without having to rip them off and they can last a really long time.

Heidi Ellsworth: I think there is so many sides of the conversation that need to be had. I know it all goes back, we keep saying this, people need to be involved and be talking about it and sharing the knowledge and the wisdom. But I'm interested, Tammy, from a contractor standpoint, what are you hearing from your customers? Are you getting these questions? Are people asking about your environmental and sustainability and all of that?

Tammy Hall: Being in the location that we are in Southwest Florida, water quality is huge here. We're connected to the Everglades through Lake Okeechobee and the Caloosahatchee River and just to the south of us, we're right in the middle of the Everglades. They come down from the Kissimmee River all the way through Miami to the end of the state. So water quality and how we're moving materials. We use Equipter so we're not dropping on the ground and things like that so that we're literally going from the roof to an Equipter to a dump truck and then going into the recycling. But one of the things that's unique to Florida because of the hurricanes is the longevity of shingle roofs and the ability that insurance companies, after 8 to 10 years, they're asking property owners to redo their roofs even though the roof is perfectly fine, never had a leak and they probably have another 10 years on that shingle roof, but they would not insure them unless they re-roofed.

So we have dealt with that for about two years. And then going back again and sharing exactly what Jason is saying, you're hurting sustainability and the landfills are filling up with all these shingles. So how do we recycle them? How do we use them? Stop the insanity on insurance that's driving, again, the cost to a consumer. Roofers of course want to roof buildings, but we don't want to do it damaging our overall concept of our business, our communities, our environment. So the state, we've had to go on the state level and just really lobby hard to say, "You guys, shingle roof does not have to be replaced in eight to 10 years, but they've been targeted for the last two years heavily." And so it's been a big issue. And so you're right where we have one regulatory agency working against the other, and then we're having to deal on... We're in an octagon dealing with all of the issues that one is driving the other.

Again, I'm just going to go back to Roofers Coffee Shop, NRCA, your state association. These are great resources and formats to start the dialogue, but be engaged. And so Heidi, I love that you record these because I send these out to our local members and I'm like, "Just watch some of it." But once they start watching, they'll get to the end. And so I think that's our advocacy if we can, and people watching today, share this, share this information, share these links because we all have to be involved. And so I think it was just a huge star for Reid to start Roofing Day because what that did is now in the state of Florida, we have a roofing day to our state delegation.

Again, people forget... We get so busy, we forget how much our state and local politicians affect our business. Miami-Dade trying to do a heat ordinance on top of OSHA's heat ordinance. Our state association, we had to fight really hard to say, "No, we're not going to regulate city by city, county by county. And then state and federal." These are things that if we're not engaged and we don't understand, we can't fix. I agree with Jason, these roofs can be here for a long time and we're happy to do the repairs and maintenance. We're happy to do the coatings. We have a great program on maintenance, and we'll take that all day long.

Heidi Ellsworth: That's a great point, Tammy. I've got to just point that out because for years I've had people say, "They just want to be able to roof again. They don't care. They tear it off. They just want the job of re-roofing it." But you're saying exactly the opposite, and that really is what has happened, is contractors have understood, and with the growth of service and maintenance programs that we don't want it to just tear off and re-roof, we want to take care of those roofs as the experts. You have a huge service and maintenance program.

Tammy Hall: Yeah. We really work with our manufacturers to stress that once you have that 30-year warranty, especially in Florida with our weather in Southwest Florida, do those biannual maintenance and let us make sure that your roof is staying sustainable. You've got people, other contractors going up there, let's get those leaks repaired right away. And so yes, once we put the roof on, we have a whole nother program that goes to support that roof. And manufacturers, when they partner with us and explain to our end users how important maintenance is and timely repairs, it's a full circle. And then we're all doing right by our communities, by our environment, by our manufacturers, by our employees. Because we all live where we live. I want clean water. I want clean air. Let's be realistic, our businesses thrive because we have the benefit of all those items.

Heidi Ellsworth: So good. Real quick, so I just want to make sure we get through this last topic. As always, this hour is going so fast, I can't believe it. But Deb, lead, Trent mentioned it going down to 0.5 when... That's just kind of wild. But then lead standards have been around for a long time and lead paint and everything. Where are we in that that contractors should be aware of?

Deb Mazol: Yeah, thanks Heidi. I think right now, over the years, EPA has taken some preliminary steps to expand the rule to public and commercial buildings instead of just your home residential facilities. There has been a lot of pushback. So EPA has never really initiated a rulemaking for those commercial buildings. Essentially it's tangential to contractors in that it covers the renovation and remodeling of pre-1978 homes where lead paint could be present. So I know a few recently bought a house or had a mortgage, there's a whole lead-based testing that goes in. That's part of this.

The initial rule took place in 2010 aimed to protect pregnant women and children from the exposure. Essentially, the rule right now covers any work that disturbs more than six feet of a painted surface in the interior, 20 feet on the exterior or window repair and replacement is also covered by that rule. Nothing right now on the commercial front, but we're keeping an eye on it. I know Trent said he was hearing murmurs of how they may change the rule to even less concentration, and obviously that would affect more homes and if they do expand it to commercial buildings as well.

Heidi Ellsworth: And one of the things that I think a lot of... I'm going to be... I have a small business I think, "Oh, that doesn't apply to me. I don't have enough people. I don't have enough income or whatever to... It just doesn't apply to me." I think a lot of roofing contractors think the same thing. "I'm a small... Small crew, one crew." None of this really applies to me. But Deb, it kind of does, doesn't it?

Deb Mazol: Kind of, yep. Depending on the law or the regulation. I will say the federal government in general and EPA does try to go the extra mile to help small businesses comply with the rule. There are certain safe harbor provisions. So say maybe you didn't know about the rule or you didn't know about the standards or the regulation because again, they're always changing. And if you don't have a person dealing with just regulatory, it can be difficult. There are things where you can kind of self-report and the enforcement would be less and they'll try to work with you to meet your goals. The small business administration as well has a separate office of advocacy. So if you have a law or regulation on the federal level and you're a small business, they encourage you to reach out.

On the website, you can even just search SBA Office of Advocacy and you can go to your local affiliate, your state person and say, "Hey, this regulation's really messing up my small business." And they can give you information specific to the type of work you're doing, the type of industry you're in. Obviously we're in construction, but it is all based on NAIC codes, so it gets a little bit complicated. So I don't want to overly say small businesses are going to be okay, but there are a lot of resources out there to make sure that major rulemaking there is a small business either exemption or a way that they will help you comply with the rule.

Heidi Ellsworth: That's good to know. That's good. Along that same lines, and Jason, we were kind of talking about this, and I know Deb brought this up and I was really intrigued by this, is that there's actually funding out there right now for manufacturers to try. Yeah, Jason, go ahead.

Jason Stanley: Some of these compliance issues are really hefty. Your EPA is hundreds of thousands of dollars to go get... Sorry, your EPD, to go get your environmental product declaration. And when you have to make new chemistries for adhesives or other formulary issues that when you change formulas, there's oftentimes testing that goes along with that because now it's a new product for UL, and so you have to do burn tests and other things. And then again, we're dealing with a new product. So you have to do weather studies and everything else to make sure that the new adhesive you're going to use can handle the temperatures or the new membrane formulation you're going to use can withstand, that has a good enough biocide package.

I think people may recall, if you've been in single ply for a number of years like I have, back in 2005, 2006, the EPA came in and required a change in the use of some heavy metals in thermoplastics. It led to a whole series of dirty roofs that lasted for years. That was an impact of reducing some of the heavy metals that we've used historically in PVC membranes. And when you reduce those heavy metals, now you have to counteract those with different biocide packages that the heavy metals counteracted those before. We've all seen lead used in roofing applications as a natural biocide or fungicide. Well, when they're embedded in the sheet, it works really well. When you take it out, now you have to counteract that.

There's also these new biocide packages or fungicide packages that are also being changed and outlawed. So there's different ones that become available. Every time you do any sort of formulation changes, you have to go through a series of testing, you have to go back to UL. It's expensive. So having some money available to help us adapt and move through these new regulations to try and keep up is extremely helpful.

Heidi Ellsworth: And I saw Deb just put in the link to if you are interested in looking at some of those grants, and I do. We are getting close. Any questions or comments, please let us know. Now's your time if you have questions for this amazing panel. But Deb, just talk real quick about that link that you put in there.

Deb Mazol: Yep. Under the Inflation Reduction Act, which was a large climate package that passed Congress a while back, they're providing a hundred million dollars worth of grants to help businesses create these EPDs environmental product designations. As Jason said, that's really expensive. The application deadline is coming up pretty quick, so I'll just flag that January 16th. I know that some of our manufacturing members have already applied, so we're hopeful that they can maybe get some money to compliment the requirements that we're all trying to reach the same goal, more sustainability, more efficiency. But if you don't have the technology available or the money to invest, it can be very difficult. We're monitoring that in particular as well as some other grants in the energy efficiency space that will hopefully be an incentive versus a stick that EPA sometimes uses to push action in one direction or the other.

Jason Stanley: Yeah. Heidi, I thought it was interesting what Trent opened up with. He said that this is coming. Make no doubt about it. This is coming. This is not a fad. This is not something that is here for a period of time. This is coming.

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah, it is coming. And we need all of us to come together. We're going to have to make these changes. We need to figure out the funding, but we also need to have a good conversation so it's reasonable and last long. And so this is our big push here at the end, is we are going to and... Jason, when you and I first talked about this panel and what we're going to do, I don't think I really realized how impactful this is to NRCA's ROOFPAC and how important all of this, what you've been through and what we've talked about regulations. Just real quick, Tammy, I know you've... I'm going to go through all three of you, but Tammy, let's start with you just on the importance of being involved in ROOFPAC. And I will say I'm a capitol member. I know Trent said he's a pick. Yep. It's so important to give and be a part of this. So go ahead.

Tammy Hall: So ROOFPAC, you can be a capitol member, you can be a pick member. You don't have to put all your money up front. If you want to pay every month to make that designation, your commitment automatically puts you in that role. If you can only give $10, if you can only give a hundred dollars, it doesn't matter because every dollar you give us gives us another voice to go and talk to our elected officials, get in front of them, get in front of their staff. It's so important for our DC team to have these accesses. And because of their experience and relationships, we have great access, but it never hurts. Congress and Senates are changing all the time. We get new people. We really need to continue the effort to make sure that our PAC is funded well.

And I just want to give a shout-out to the events that go on and everyone who attends, thank you so much. It's greatly appreciated. It does need to be a personal donation to be a hard ROOFPAC dollar. If you can't give personally you want to give corporately, we can use that as soft money to help sponsor our events and things like that. So please give to ROOFPAC. Go on NRCA's website and you can donate today.

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah, right now. You do need to be an NRCA member. Is that right, Deb?

Deb Mazol: Generally, yes. Or at least industry affiliated. I think Jason might be a pick member, one of our newer pick members as well. And so what they're talking about is just giving levels. We have an Emerging Leaders Club and you get everything from ornaments to car service at IRE. The next event that we have coming up is at IRE itself, and we do both a reception with a live auction that's really fun as well as an online auction where you can see the items in the booths, everything from electronics to jewelry, to really cool vacation trips and curated trips like a hunting trip or a wine vacation. And that's a really easy way. If you're not quite sure about pick or you're not quite sure about ROOFPAC, you can get yourself a laptop and that counts as a donation towards ROOFPAC NRCA. And again, what we use that money for is being able to get in front of lawmakers, build that relationship because last Congress alone there was 30% new members.

And so it's easy, it makes it a lot easier for us to educate members on our issues. Teri Dorn is fantastic. She's our lead on all things ROOFPAC. She's on the call today, as well as Kelly Van Winkle is our chair of our PAC committee. And I know Tammy sits on the PAC committee as well. So if you have any questions, talk to them. We also have all of our pick members and CHC and emerging leaders listed out on our website. So reach out to any of your friends on that. And yeah, we hope we can gain your support this year.

Heidi Ellsworth: That's good. Jason, bring us home.

Jason Stanley: So as a board member for the NRCA, I think I'd be remiss to say if you're not a member, you're truly missing out and you need to join. The amount of money for your dues, and it's a scalable amount, depending on the size of your business, is probably the most affordable thing you can do to unlock millions of dollars in education. There are so many wonderful programs that are being put forward by the leaders of our roofing industry at the NRCA relative to pro certification, just worker safety in general, but these environmental issues, these regulatory issues, just worker safety in general and then the camaraderie that happens by being a member and becoming involved with the NRCA is just incredible. So if you're not a member, you need to look to join. It's the best money you could spend to become a member of the NRCA.

Heidi Ellsworth: Thank you. Thank you, Jason. Thank you, Tammy. Thank you, Deb. Thank you to Trent who was here, and a huge thank you to IB Roof Systems for bringing this great topic. What an awesome hour. Thank you all so much for being here today.

Jason Stanley: Thank you, Heidi.

Deb Mazol: Thanks, Heidi. Thanks, Megan.

Heidi Ellsworth: And I am going to say real quick, join us December 21st. Emotional intelligence in roofing. You got to wonder, this is going to be great. It's going to be all about really the changing times and how we have to adapt the products, the colors, the designs, the selling, technology, all of it. So join us on December 21st, 7:00 AM, we will see you then. Have a wonderful day, and thank you so much for being here.