Aaron Gould: Mass Timber Moisture Management - PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Aaron Gould of VaproShield. You can read the interview below or listen to the podcast.

Intro: Welcome to Roofing Road Trips, the podcast that takes you on a thrilling journey across the world of roofing. From fascinating interviews with roofing experts to on-the-road adventures, we'll uncover the stories, innovations and challenges that shape the rooftops over our heads. So fasten your seatbelts and join us as we embark on this exciting roofing road trip.

Hello, everyone. My name's Megan Ellsworth here at rooferscoffeeshop.com, and you are listening to Roofing Road Trips. Today I am here with my friend Aaron from VaproShield. Hi, how are you?

Aaron: I'm doing real well. How are you today?

Megan Ellsworth: I'm so good. I'm glad to be chatting with you and learn a bit about your mass timber program. So before we get into that, I'll just have you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about you and VaproShield.

Aaron: Sure, no problem. So I'm head of sustainability for VaproShield. And you can pronounce it either way. Vapro, Vapro. And also director of mass timber. So that's a big part of the sustainability umbrella. And I've been with the company for about 13 years. Prior to that, I was in building envelope and sustainability, healthy construction and material selection. I did design consulting and I actually started off in the trades. So I did roofing for quite a while, working for a small company in the Pacific Northwest. [Dan Pratsu 00:01:41] was the owner of that company. I believe he's still in it and I did elevators, carpentry, traditional timber framing, finished carpentry as well. So yeah.

Megan Ellsworth: Very cool. That's awesome. So what is mass timber construction and what are some of the unique challenges to this building style?

Aaron: Sure. Mass timber has a fairly broad definition today. It's generally implied that it's a factory manufactured product. But historically mass timber would've included log homes and log structures transitioning to... Well, even before that, traditional timber, wood joinery, timber framing as well. Which again, I have a soft spot for and really enjoy that craft quite a bit. A lot of buildings from the 3, 400 years ago in the US are in that technique and brought over from Europe. For example, in Germany, the Fachwerkhaus, which are essentially a stucco infill timber framing. But today we offsite manufacture cross-laminated timber or dowel-laminated timber, MPP, mass ply. So there's many forms of it. There's also GLT glue laminated, which is just glue lam beams essentially turned on their side and expanded out.

So for example, University of Toronto right now has a sizable high-rise going up with a 10-story cantilever. Also, it's a very complex structurally that's GLT and Glue lam right now. NLT, nail laminated timber is probably the first ... The DNA is closely tied to ... And we started seeing those 110, 120 years ago in the US especially in cities like Chicago, Pacific Northwest and Seattle and Tacoma. Have some NLT buildings like car dealerships and repair facilities and things like that.

Megan Ellsworth: Wow, okay. So it has a long history. That's cool.

Aaron: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Megan Ellsworth: Can you tell us a little bit about VaproShield's past work with Mass Timber Construction and what you all are doing now?

Aaron: Sure. In its modern form, it's not even 15 years old in the United States. I was just at Nordic structures in Chantilly, in Northern Quebec in Chibougamau. They started manufacturing in 2011, and I believe they were among the first, if not the first in North America to manufacture. Prior to that, Europe was the source. The first projects were in that same era as around 2012, 2011. Even here in Chattanooga, actually there was one, let's see, it was the Calvary Chapel Office Annex. They have their own staff architect and he worked on that and I believe they imported from Europe for that project. If I remember correctly. A lot of it's still imported from Europe, but we have a much more domestic capability and manufacturing now. Very high quality southern yellow pine dug fir.

Megan Ellsworth: That's great, yay. Well, I am from Oregon originally so I know Douglas Fir and Ponderosa Pine very well. And now I live in Colorado where we see a lot of pines and firs too. So where would SlopeShield be incorporated into a finished roofing system on a mass timber construction?

Aaron: Sure. So there's a project going currently, that's a good example of this. There are 11 buildings, 300 to 400,000 square feet apiece approximately. So a pretty large campus. A lot of people in the industry know this project, and we were specified by Gensler, the architect on that for the roofing. To protect the CLT, the mass timber on the roof deck during construction. And then later on that becomes with a tie-in to the parapet part of the air barrier system, which is also a very important factor and part of the finished roofing assembly in that particular low slope application. And then we also are turned up onto the penthouse, and then the penthouse has another separate roof as well on those structures.

Megan Ellsworth: Wow. Okay, great. Can you tell us a little bit about SlopeShield and the product and some of its unique traits?

Aaron: Yeah, sure. So SlopeShield has several functionalities in mass timber applications, in low slope applications, in steep slope as well. Those are the primary usages of it and it can also be used in re-roofing scenarios or in new construction. Over concrete, over B deck as well-

Megan Ellsworth: Wow.

Aaron: ... over gypsum, over plywood, over OSB. As much as I'm not a big fan of OSB, but it's particularly well suited to mass timber, which requires a degree of drying potential. Really any wood product should have some permeability, some drying potential to it. And then so it not only does that, but it also protects from bulk water infiltration and even resists the percussive effect of rain events like thunderstorms. And it helps to maintain the wood to be a good moisture content of less than 20% say. And it will actually drive...

The wood is saturated at let's say 35, 40% moisture content. And we did some testing with RDH up in Waterloo on this, RDH Building Sciences. And we discovered that at roughly 30 perms that this membrane will allow that saturated wood to dry at roughly the same rate as if it were not covered at all.

Megan Ellsworth: Wow.

Aaron: So not only does it protect from that bulk water, but it allows that rate of drying that's optimal. So we hit a really real sweet spot there.

Megan Ellsworth: That's huge and amazing, especially in really wet climates like the Pacific Northwest.

Aaron: Yeah, absolutely.

Megan Ellsworth: Yeah, that's huge because you don't want mold or mildew.

Aaron: And you can even have structural failure there. Or for example, a lot of people don't realize, but fasteners can be stressed by swelling wood to the point of 90% more load than they originally had. I mean, it's a real massive difference. It can be much more than that actually. So it's very critical that it not only stay dry as much as possible, but be allowed to dry. And that really differentiates us from the competition. A lot of the industry grew out of Europe, and in Europe they used less durable and nearly impermeable membranes as far as moisture vapor is concerned, but they also didn't do as good a job of keeping water out. So they had this, there've been a lot of issues with that in the US now. And so there are many of the largest manufacturers of mass timber will only use our membranes now. Because they've had so many issues with European ones.

Megan Ellsworth: Wow, well that's great for you all. And what an innovation.

Aaron: Well, it wasn't without effort. It took us about six years of R&D to dial in that product. It's really challenging to get something very durable that also has that degree of permeability. That's a real challenge. But I'm really grateful that we were able to achieve that. And as we were doing that, the mass timber industry really took off and was growing. And so we just were grateful to be able to grow with that. Originally, our sites were purely on roofing and then we quickly realized how significant this would be to mass timber, so much to the point where it affected my job. And I took on the title of director of Mass Timber because we were that key of an ingredient in those assemblies.

Megan Ellsworth: Wow, that's huge. So do you have any examples of contractors using SlopeShield to manage moisture on their projects?

Aaron: Yeah, lots of them. In fact, I think this is a real opportunity for roofing contractors in particular right now. Because the scope is often, it may go to just means and methods of the general contractor. It may go to, I've seen it go to concrete subs, air barrier subs, framers, stud drywall subs. I mean, it's all over the place. It's kind of like the wild west of air barriers 15, 20 years ago. And so it's this new application, and I'm particularly referring to the floor decks. So the mass timber also needs to be protected on multi-story buildings as they go up. And you essentially need the function of a temporary roof that must be detailed that way during construction in order to adequately manage the moisture. And we've provided details for that. But I think roofing contractors are particularly well poised for that to be able to know how to do that well.

And it's a real opportunity. So not only the roofing deck, but the floor decks during construction as well. Are in really almost a new... It's a new scope in the industry, and it's just really being understood as, okay, this is very important, especially in rainier climates, especially in the summertime.

Megan Ellsworth: Wow. Yes. I didn't even think about floor decks. That's huge.

Aaron: I mean, they are the roof during construction.

Megan Ellsworth: Yeah, that's so true. So can SlopeShield be used for anything else, any other applications or services?

Aaron: Yeah. So it also is great over concrete.

Megan Ellsworth: Oh, that's right.

Aaron: Yep. And so whether or not it's just mass timber, most mass timber also has a concrete topping slab, literally two I've seen up to six inches. There's a project right now in Virginia that's got six inches full strength topping slab on every floor. And I don't know if it's on the roof deck or not, but yeah, we've got phenomenal uplift numbers with adhered to concrete, even. In as quickly as five days after pouring. So because of the moisture vapor permeability of it gives a lot more versatility and really can allow speeding up of the entire schedule for the general contractor and for the subs. For example, you can put down SlopeShield plus on just about any type of roof deck, whether it be direct to B deck, plywood concrete, whether it's even a new construction or re-roof.

You can temp that in and then go to another project and work on that and then come back to it later on. For example, once the local jurisdiction signs off on the concrete drying time. But during that time, the building is still protected. So I mean, these are some really significant changes to the industry, potentially. Some real innovations in technology that allow, I mean, that can be a huge tool for roofing contractors.

Megan Ellsworth: Wow.

Aaron: Yeah.

Megan Ellsworth: That's huge.

Aaron: Understand it. Right? So a lot of opportunities like that, or take the re-roof example, I think Dan Clancy touched on another podcast of saving the insulation right during construction. I mean, that's amazing for re-roofs being able to allow that existing insulation to stay. And I'm a big fan of that as a head of sustainability here, and we're making a lot of progress in having that be a feasibility as well. And we've got some great project profiles on our website. Like the Tampa Airport, for example, was the first one that I was involved with under a barrel standing seemed mechanically seamed barrel roof.

Megan Ellsworth: Wow. Oh my gosh. And also with the insulation, if it did get wet, it can still dry and you don't have to replace it.

Aaron: Absolutely.

Megan Ellsworth: That's huge.

Aaron: Or if a wood deck or concrete deck is concrete is still curing. But if they have any moisture content in them, it will help to optimize through that drying process as well. And that's a huge advantage. And then after construction, you are then also reducing that moisture-laden air infiltration into roofing assemblies. That is so important. And I'm amazed at how little the understanding of that is in the roofing consultant and engineering world. I think contractors actually realize this even more because even more than the engineers, because they've torn off old roofs. They've seen the condensed moisture-laden air in the form of corrosion, in the form of rot and they have to deal with it. So that's where that comes from a lot of times. But if the roof can dry out slowly through that diffusive process, that's a huge advantage for the life of the building.

And hopefully we're extending the life of the building and the structure both on existing buildings and on new construction.

Megan Ellsworth: Wow. This is such a cool product. I know you mentioned before we started the podcast that you took some product to Asheville North Carolina. Do you know of any projects using SlopeShield there to rebuild?

Aaron: So we actually gave basically material for patching roofs, kind of focusing on the residential sector for that. Even some of the manufacturing zones, for example, we worked with Excel College in Black Mountain, which was hit pretty hard, that area. But Excel is a little more towards the continental divide. So they were uniquely poised to be a staging area for relief efforts. So we brought in some water and some fuel generator and some other supplies. And we also stopped at an elderly... My neighbor actually, who owns Timberlands out there, his 90-year-old father, we set him up with a generator in that area as well. We couldn't even get to his cabin that he has there. But the town of Swannanoa right next in between Asheville and Black Mountain was one of the worst hit areas. And it was just epic devastation. And there were a lot of homes that were just half destroyed across the street from where they used to be, down the street. I mean, it just really devastating a lot of trucks and trailers, overturned. Sheet metal roofing, 30 feet up in trees wrapped around the branches and trunks. Yeah, really wild.

Megan Ellsworth: Yeah, super wild. Well, thank you so much for going there and providing materials and water and fuel and power. That's really important. So thank you.

Aaron: Yeah, I mean, real shout out to Excel and what they're doing in that community. Because, and I would say if anyone's looking to be involved in the relief efforts, they have a donation page open that's direct with a local school.

Megan Ellsworth: That's awesome.

Aaron: See a lot of the students are out of work right now. It's a school that you uniquely commits to every student graduating without debt for school, for college. And so they work with local businesses, but a lot of those local businesses are shut down. So the school has been raising funds to employ the students in the relief efforts, basically. So they're volunteering their time right now, but they're seeking funds to help offset some of their tuition costs and things like that. So it's a real neat and just great people that have a heart to help the local community any way. A pretty broad Hispanic community there also. And so some of it, there's a language barrier, but for the most part, a lot of them speak great English. But they did not necessarily get good communication on evacuation. A lot of them lost homes. And so it's great to see a lot of the people who are really contributing to the success of a lot of our buildings being taken care of and helping out in these efforts as well.

Megan Ellsworth: Yeah, that's incredible. That's really special. So if there's anyone out there that listens to this podcast and wants to get SlopeShield in their hands and on a project, how can they start using it?

Aaron: So we have distribution in some areas. Certainly if you're a roofing contractor, reach out to us, reach out to your local rep and we can give you the best way for procurement. There are some companies like Taylor Roofing have used us quite a bit over the years. I think first project I worked on with them was Princeton University student housing, several buildings and it was roof and walls with. I think it was [Luteweesee 00:19:53] on a lot of it. So that was a lot of fun, which I love that company. I've worked with them quite a bit as both of those companies, Taylor and Luteweesee. And then we also mass timber manufacturers. If you are pursuing a mass timber project, which I highly recommend SlopeShield Plus can be factory applied and it can be specified that way.

Go to our website, vaporshield.com and we have guide specs for division one, division six and division seven that can be dropped in and utilized. So either factory applied or field applied. There are advantages to both. It's great to get mass timber protected early, but a lot of times roofing contractors can fly and really actually be a cost savings getting that material on. And there are a lot of projects that are trying to save money by maybe protecting every other floor, but then they get into a really wet weather. Like in Vancouver, British Columbia this winter, we worked on a 12 story building.

Thankfully the envelope consultant anticipated the January start, and-

Megan Ellsworth: That's good.

Aaron: ... protected every floor from the factory. And I mean, they had over 40 days of straight rain out there on that project in field. 35, 40 degree temperatures. Yeah, that's a great way to do it. But there's still a lot of, there's actually almost as much labor as just putting it on in the field. So you got your what, 67 a square, a sense of square foot average or whatever it is now for the membrane in the field. Which is actually a lot better than a lot of other subs can estimate that. But the seaming in is really critical. And so we reinforce the seams and laps with our vapor tape when it's under a 212 pitch.

Megan Ellsworth: Amazing.

Aaron: And then also there's spline joints often in mass timber, and then we have overhang details. And then on the floor decks, you have details for the columns and the post bases that are really critical. And again, roofing subs really excel at that type of detailing and can really offer a lot of value to GCs. And I'm happy to connect you. If anyone wants to reach out to me. We also have justmasstimber@vaproshield.com, and you can talk to us there on email.

Megan Ellsworth: Amazing. Well, Aaron, thank you so much. Everyone out there listening, you can also go to rooferscoffeeshop.com to Vaproshield directory and find all this information there as well. And you can find a contact email so you can reach out to these amazing people and get SlopeShield and Vapro tape and all the things to your door. So Aaron, thank you so much. This has been a great podcast.

Aaron: Yeah, thank you Megan. And yeah, anyone who is looking to achieve more resilient and durable buildings and safeguard them from prolonged moisture-related damage, i.e. condensation or leaks and then also just enhancing our health and energy efficiency of the occupants. And the building, the energy efficiency, the building, obviously for the occupants. We're a very people-centric company, and we want to promote people's health. And you can actually contribute to that as a roofing contractor by selecting materials like SlopeShield Plus.

Outro: Yeah, absolutely. Well, everyone out there, thank you for listening and we will see you next time on another Roofing Road Trip. If you've enjoyed the ride, don't forget to hit that subscribe button and join us on every roofing adventure. Make sure to visit rooferscoffeeshop.com to learn more. Thanks for tuning in, and we'll catch you on the next Roofing Road Trip.