A Roofing Life for Second Chance Citizens - PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Maureen Greeves, Cindy Barnwell, Lisa Holmes, Tina Talbot, of WTI. You can read the interview below or listen to the podcast.

Intro: Hello, everyone and welcome to Coffee Conversations. My name is Heidi Ellsworth and this is where we get to talk about what's important in the industry, thought leadership and what really spectacular things are happening that no one else is really talking about. I have to tell you, this morning is top of the list. We are very excited to be talking about our group of 2nd Chance citizens and what Tremco and WTI have done to really create a program of inspiration and that helps solve and really take on the labor shortage and the look for talent. I'm so excited and so thankful for WTI, Weatherproofing Technologies Incorporated and Tremco for everything they do and for being a sponsor of this Coffee Conversations. Again, truly revolutionary and thought leadership that you're going to learn about today. 

First of all, some housekeeping. This is being recorded. It will be available on demand within the next 24 hours, so please share it, get it out to your company, friends and family. This is the kind of stuff that will inspire anybody. This is really showing how amazing the roofing industry is. Also, the chat is open. As you all know, this is a conversation, Coffee Conversations. Please, in the chat, let us know who you are, let us know where you're from, your company. And also as we go through, it isn't just for questions. If you have comments, inspirations, you want to do some claps, please be a part, engage throughout this next hour. Let's get started. I would first like to introduce Maureen Greeves who is a regular on Coffee Conversations and a dear friend. Maureen, welcome back to the show.

Maureen Greeves: Thank you. Always a pleasure to be invited back to talk with you.

Heidi J Ellsworth: I love it. Can you introduce yourself? Tell us a little bit about what you do at WTI.

Maureen Greeves: Sure. Sure. I've been in the roofing industry since 2009, so 15 or so years. Came into this industry out of... Just stumbled upon it. It's been an amazing journey. I live in Cleveland, Ohio, based, born and bred in Cleveland, Ohio. A daughter of two immigrants right off the boat from Scotland, Ireland and I got two girls at home. I'm super happy to be here today. Yeah. 

Heidi J Ellsworth: I love it, Maureen. This is the best topic. Thank you so much for bringing this and helping us make it happen. Our next panelist is Cindy Barnwell. Cindy, so excited to have you here today. Can you introduce yourself and tell us what you do with WTI and Tremco?

Cindy Barnwell: My name is Cindy Barnwell. I'm from Cleveland as well. I was one of the first team members that came through the program, the 2nd Chance program and I've been with WTI a little over five years now. I am an inspector and I do TremCares, I do quality assurance inspections, I go up and make sure everything's looking good. Sometimes I do patch and repair. I go out on leak calls and I make repairs and I crawl all over the buildings.

Heidi J Ellsworth: You're in your truck right now out at a job site, so thank you so much for taking the time to visit. This is great. Perfect. Thank you, Cindy. You are truly inspirational. I also want to introduce Lisa Holmes. Lisa, welcome to Coffee Conversations. If you could introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you do.

Lisa Holmes: Hi, my name's Lisa Holmes and I just recently joined a WTI in May of this year. I am considered the regional administrator for the central region. Basically, I help the field techs, the supervisors with any rental equipment, hotels, invoices if they need something purchased. Just recently came from the Department of Corrections as well.

Heidi J Ellsworth: A rich background. I'm so excited to hear about all of this, Lisa, because you bring such a great perspective. Tina, thank you so much for being here. I want to introduce Tina Talbot. If you can introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you do with Tremco and WTI.

Tina Talbot: Hi, my name is Tina Talbot and I have worked for Tremco WTI since March of '21. Currently, I am a personnel coordinator. I started out as a part-time hourly field resource rep and moved into a full-time position. Normally, I assist with payroll. I back up the payroll administrator. Nancy Bowden, anything that she might need help on. I also order PPE for the field resource reps that are out there, so anything that they need to make sure that they're doing their job safely. I'm in charge of all the new hires that come through here.

Heidi J Ellsworth: That's great. Ladies, thank you so much. This is truly monumental. We are going to get to it and I would love, Maureen, if you could start and really share with us what the 2nd Chance citizens program, the RISE program, how it got started and really what it's all about, so everybody kind of understands what WTI has been doing.

Maureen Greeves: Of course. All right. I love talking about this stuff, Heidi.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah. 

Maureen Greeves: And I think you've covered this topic many times. We've had our own discussions about leadership and the industry and how much we love this industry. Just for the sake of it never hurts to discuss it again, but 10,000 boomers reaching retirement age every single day. 4.1 million people are going to turn 65 this year and that's going to continue all the way to 2027. So when you think about where we were five, eight years ago, we were battling that, an aging workforce. We were battling that narrative that was constantly going on about college being the only path for someone, the only way that higher education was really the only path for someone, so you're seeing this shrinking decline in the skilled trade, so we were pretty in a bad state. The industry was in a bad state and we're like, "What do we see for the future of this industry?"

Two of our most impressive real thought leaders and innovators, and you know them quite well, Paul Hoogenboom and Mardee Billingsley, came up with the RISE program, Roofing Individuals Succeed through Education. That doesn't necessarily mean it is... What I love about this program is that it meets an individual where they're at. We have an apprentice program, 4,000 hours of on-the-job training, courses available through Tremco University. And then at the end of that time period, when they go through all four of those phases, they get a journeyman certificate. On top of that, as a byproduct of engaging in that training program, you get 15 credit hours towards college if you decide to use it. You don't have to, but it just is there like, "Okay, I want to expand my education, maybe go somewhere different in my career." 

Then we also have the construction management opportunity. We partnered with University of Akron and we were able to provide a apprentice course, 63 credit hours and then a bachelor's course, 120 hours with a focus on construction management, something that's very much needed in the industry. Oh, by the way, all three of those opportunities are zero cost to an employee. Right out of the gates, wherever you are in your career, whether you want to be an inspection foreman or an inspection technician or a patch and repair technician for the rest of your life, awesome. We know that the roofing industry is a great place to make a living and be a part of a great group of folks. 

We had that and then we have our 2nd Chance. This innovative, amazing platform that Maleah Evans and Carlata Martin have taken to the next level. I'm not even supposed to be here today, Heidi. I'm not even supposed to be here. You know who's supposed to be here? Maleah Evans and Carlata Martin, but they're in the Department of Corrections in Florida right now putting together a 25-week training program for folks that are currently incarcerated so that, if they choose to, when they get released, they can come on board and work for us. She's done the same exact thing in the Department of Missouri. I think Lisa will talk about that, but it's really an amazing program, current and formerly incarcerated individuals, giving them an opportunity to learn a roofing construction career. 

These folks are working to take... Not only are they learning about single ply and built up and restoration repair, Maleah and her team have created original content that talks about life skills, technology, personal budgeting. I mean, it's all encompassing. I think the biggest thing you're going to hear about today are all of these platforms require support, and that's the biggest word I want you guys to focus on today. You're going to hear it a lot. The way this is successful is it's through support. All of these folks on this call today at some point had support from multiple people to get where they are today. 

Heidi J Ellsworth: I think there's probably a lot of people out there watching this who are thinking, "That's a lot of work. That really... It takes a lot." I mean, when you think about Maleah and Carlata are down there right now putting programs together, I know they're training today, they're in the prisons. I love how you brought up Paul and Mardee because it really takes commitment from the very top to put this kind of program together, right? 

Maureen Greeves: For sure. For sure. Totally agree. 

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah. That's how it all came together and stuff. What I really want to do is I want to hear everybody's story and how this program has been in your life. Cindy, I'm going to start with you. If you don't mind sharing your story with us and your story now that you're at Tremco.

Cindy Barnwell: Well, the prison system that I was in, it was a reintegration prison in Cleveland on 30th & Orange. There was a paper on the wall that said, "If you're interested in roofing, sign up for this." And so I did and a case manager called me over and asked me if I had any experience. And I actually did. I did some residential roofing with my brother-in-law years ago. She got very excited about it and I'm thinking it was just something to pass my time by until I got released from prison. Next thing you know, we had a job fair and they sent me a pass to go for an interview. I'm like, "Yeah, this can't be something that's going to manifest for me," so I ignored it. Well, that case manager actually called me out of my unit to come over there because I was on the list to be interviewed. 

I got interviewed and they offered me a job. I was like, "Wow." But I still didn't really fully believe it. Somebody called me over to do a resume and I didn't show up for that. That case manager called me and said, "Hey, come on. You got to do this." And I'm thinking, "I'm not going to get the job. Who's going to want to hire me?" She really pushed me was my point behind her. Once I did get released, I didn't want to go back to the same area or the same friends because I knew that I would just end up back in trouble, so I chose to go to a sober living environment. They were like, "Well, hey, you got to get a job." It was about two or three weeks and I said, "Let me just call and see if I really got a job with these people." 

I called and they called me back. The little hurdles I did have, the guys that I met, they helped me, like transportation. Paul Spital and Ron Tyson, they both were my first couple trainers and they would pick me up, take me back. I would Uber myself places. And then it got to the point where I was able to buy a car and it just snowballed from there. But if it wasn't for that case manager in the prison system, I probably would've never followed through-

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah, wow. 

Cindy Barnwell: ... [inaudible 00:13:59] surreal to me. I'm a felon, you know?

Heidi J Ellsworth: Is this company really out there? Are they really serious? It's hard to probably believe that.

Cindy Barnwell: Yes. Yeah, I didn't think that I would be sitting where I am today.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah. And today you are inspecting roofs and, from what I understand, you have won some awards.

Cindy Barnwell: I have. We went around and they made mock-up situations, repairs or things that would get done. And we went around and we put our own patches down and our own talking and things like that. And then the higher-ups went around and they picked, "Well, this is the nicest one. This is... Oh, wow, this is really good." And I think out of five, they picked mine twice so [inaudible 00:14:53].

Heidi J Ellsworth: I love it. 

Cindy Barnwell: Yeah. And they were shocked, but I also feel like I really worked really hard because I felt like I needed to prove myself. Because honestly, I thought they were a little leery of me. "She's a female. She's out of prison." And they're like, "I don't want to work with her. I don't want to work with her." I ended up with Joe Hills and Joe Hills is a good guy to work for.

Heidi J Ellsworth: That's awesome. 

Cindy Barnwell: Yeah.

Heidi J Ellsworth: That's so great. Well, I'm going to-

Cindy Barnwell: I get a lot of compliments from the sales reps, too. I have a good rapport with the customers.

Heidi J Ellsworth: I love it. Well, I'm going to hop to Lisa for you to tell your story, because it goes in with what Cindy's saying. Your story is a little bit different. You were working in the Department of Corrections, so share your background and how you've come to Tremco.

Lisa Holmes: All right. Thank you. Yeah. I was working for the Department of Corrections for about nine years. It was during the last, I think, four year, four or five years that I had switched positions within the Department of Corrections. One day the warden, assistant warden and a few others said, "Hey, we want you to come to this meeting." It was me and this other gal and they said, "We're starting this program." I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, Maureen, but it's the first prison that they came into. We were the pilot program and they had already... I kind of came in after they had already picked the individuals. They're like, "We're having this program. This company's going to come in. They're going to train these guys on how to do flat roofing, and then afterwards then they could potentially have a job with them." So I was like, "Okay." 

Well, I ended up being the one then from there on out that pretty much was in charge of it. There's when I got to meet Maureen and Maleah. Carlata hadn't been with them yet. I was still a little leery to begin with. I was like, "Okay, is this really true? Is this really going to happen?" Because you see so much in the prisons, they offer training such as welding and construction and that sort of thing, but they just give you a certificate. Then the offenders are on their own to find a job when they get out. 

When this company came in, when Tremco came in, they were doing all this and I was getting really excited because I got to know Maureen and Maleah a lot better. I understood the program, then we start with the first class. I think there was one or two that ended up finishing that actually went on to WTI and then we had about four other classes before I left.

We've had several complete the program. They've stayed with Tremco. Not everybody, unfortunately, stays. And then when I had the opportunity to come here and I was hired, then I was able to see that these guys actually were making a difference in their lives. They had steady jobs, they had a place to stay, they were making money for food, like I said, rent. And it was just an amazing opportunity to see from start to finish per se of what somebody has gone through. 

Tina will probably touch on it a little bit, but with probation and parole in Missouri, they make sure that you have to have a home plan before you can get out. Some people can't even get out on time because they don't have a proper home plan. Or if they do get out, then how are they supposed to pay their bills and not slide back into what they were doing before?

Because if you don't have a job, you're a felon, how are you going to make ends meet and not slip back in basically? Seeing these guys and how they have overcome their struggles has just been amazing.

Heidi J Ellsworth: So now you work for Tremco in this program?

Lisa Holmes: I work for Tremco, yes.  

Heidi J Ellsworth: And what... Well, you know what? I'm going to come back to that because that's another question that I want you to answer here in just a little bit. I want to get to Tina first and we're going to come back to my... I won't forget this question. Tina, tell us your story.

Tina Talbot: My light just came on. I'm so sorry. Okay. My story... I don't know if you can even see me.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yes, now we can. You got it.

Tina Talbot: Okay. I spent 20 months in prison. In that time, towards the end of what was supposed to be my stay, I actually had to submit some paperwork that basically said where I was going to go home, where I was going to work. Because in my particular case, I had to pay restitution, so it was very important that I find a job and that I'd be able to pay that restitution. In my case, I was lucky because I went home to a home, but you also have to maintain that home. I was trying to get my son back and I had to make sure that I had the money to keep the lawyer in order to do that, so it was very important that I get a job.

Originally when I was getting out, I submitted that I was going to work for somebody other than Tremco. It did not work out that I went to work for this person. In the meantime, I just picked up a part-time job and was learning plumbing of all things. But thankfully, a friend of mine from high school pulled some strings for me and talked to some people and said, "Listen, give this girl a chance. She's gone through a really tough time." I was hired into Tremco in March. From November when I got out until March, I was doing the plumbing and then I got hired into Tremco. It's been an amazing experience. Nobody's ever treated me like I was a felon. Nobody's ever shared anything that I did not want shared and I've been treated like just another employee and a valued employee at that. It's just been... I'm so appreciative for everything that they've given me to do.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah. You can just tell from how you talk, how Cindy talks, this is the core culture. This is a culture of inclusivity and respect and I think that is a key. As you're putting these programs together, you have to have that culture or else it can hit a lot of snags. That was one of the things that I was going to say to Lisa is, as you're looking to go... You were working for the DOC, so you saw a lot of companies out there and you saw a lot of people probably try to do these kind of things. What's the secret to success and why did you see that success so much that you decided to come work for Tremco?

Lisa Holmes: Well, first of all, there really weren't too many companies like Tremco that wanted to actually come into at least the Missouri Department of Corrections. I can't speak for other states. There'd be some job that we would have. They would come in and talk to the guys. I say guys because I was in a male institution. When this one came in, it was definitely a different concept, but some of the struggles that they have and Tremco's helping with that, some of these guys may have been in before cell phones, so they have no idea how cell phones work. They've never budgeted money. They don't know how to budget money.

They may not even had an education. At least with Missouri Department of Corrections, they make sure that you have an education, at least graduate with a high school diploma. There's just a lot of struggles. With Tremco, once Maleah had you in the job, then she was following the individuals from the time they were in until they were out. She would send them their first set of clothes if they needed it, if they needed bus tickets or if they needed a ride to have their physical done, she would get them an Uber. So just putting in that extra effort makes them successful, because like Cindy was saying, once you get out... She said she didn't have a car. A lot of these guys don't have a car. How can they afford a car if they've been in prison and there's no way to save up money? 

So just being able to help once they are released is a big change. I became so passionate with this program that I actually had left the Department of Corrections and I went and worked... I had an opportunity to work for the Social Security Administration for a year and it was towards the end of that first year. Then that's when Maleah's like, "Hey, we have this opening that's coming up. It's not quite with the 2nd Chance, the ELEVATE Program, but we think you'd be really good for it." I applied, interviewed and here I am. It's wonderful to be able to see the progress that these guys have made.

Heidi J Ellsworth: I think that's one of my questions, too, Cindy. You were one of the very first folks to go through this program and also to see success. What have you seen since when you first started to today with the program, and what are some of your thoughts about the challenges of this program but also the successes?

Cindy Barnwell: Oh, yeah. They didn't have a lot of the things they have in place now. They didn't come in and do training inside. I just came out and had to figure it out but I didn't. Like I said, the guys that I work with, they were really helpful, especially with the training side of it. I've learned a lot. Finding somewhere to go and getting that transportation, those were challenges for me. The very first job I went on, the guy I was supposed to meet, he was supposed to pick me up and they were going to send me to Cincinnati. Well, something happened with him and it fell through. I made a phone call, I think it was Brittany Randall and she hurried up and she said, "Okay, you're going to go work with Ron Tyson." They told me where the job was and everything. I wasn't really familiar with the bus systems. 

I got online and I tried to figure it out because I'm not computer savvy, I'm not. And I got up at 5:00 in the morning. I wasn't in a good neighborhood. It might even have been like 4:00 in the morning. Well, I got about a mile away from the job site and the bus had already left to get me there. I was so frustrated. I said, "I'm going home. This job is not going to be worth it." I called Ron and I said, "Listen, I'm a mile down the road. I don't even know where I am, actually." I said, "I'm going home." And he goes, "Stay there, I'll come get you." He came and got me and it was just the people that were put in my life that made... You know what I mean? Now, I can call Carlata and Maleah if I have an issue or if I need something and they make sure... 

But in the beginning, it was kind of rocky for me. It really was. Once I worked with Ron, and he knew the area I was staying in, he drove me. He started picking me up and he's like, "I don't want you riding the bus around there." And then I just started meeting these people and then they put me with Paul Spital and Joe Hills. I would Uber to Paul's house in the morning and then we would go to the job. After my first couple checks, he was like, "I have a friend that's selling a car for 2,000." And he goes, "I'll pick you up and take you there," and he did. And if it wasn't for these guys, though, helping me, like I said, I don't know if I would've followed through. I don't know if I would've committed myself, but they made sure I did. That was really great. 

Joe, he's been great to work for. I believe that if I wouldn't have landed in these guys' path, it could have been totally different. But those were my challenges was just the ability to get to the job, to get the bus, because actually somebody gave me bus pass. I didn't have the money to purchase them, but the way this company, this whole program has changed, they've built on it. These guys have a lot of good opportunities, especially the training inside the prisons, making sure your needs are met when you get out. I mean, I think that's great.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Maureen, just talk about that, about what Cindy just said. I mean, that's just so powerful. From when this idea came down with Paul and Marty and Maleah and Carlata and you and everybody [inaudible 00:29:31] because I've been here. I've watched you all work so hard on this to where you're at today. How has that program changed and what are some of the things that other people are looking at this and thinking, "We want to do this. We want to be involved"? What are some of the challenges?

Maureen Greeves: Well, I would say, first off, we're not surprised, but it bears mentioning. The roofing industry is packed with people who want to see other people succeed, that want to lift people up and be there for them and be able to support them. That is truly what makes this, just at the very heart of it, survive because it's about people supporting people. The roofing industry, as much as we love the fact that we talk about it's a great career for you, there's such a huge future here, it's about the people that make that happen. When I first said it's about support, it's about support. Tina needed somebody to support her. Cindy had somebody to support her. Lisa provided that support and that push for those folks that were in the system and the facility saying, "No, you're going to show up. And if you screw up, you're out."

And then word would start to spread. I mean, we started out with the group giving Maleah about 10 people to interview and then Lisa would start turning people away. "Nope, we can only take this many in a class." You'd have people on a waiting list to get into Maleah's classes, because they would see... Oh, they're seeing these folks walk out of their OSHA 10 certified first week, brand new boots, ready to get on a roof, do hands-on training. People coming in, talking about technology, people coming in and giving them information and holding them accountable. There's tests that we would implement to say, "Hey, we want to understand your concepts and we want to make sure you're grasping this." But I think the biggest piece was that you need a Maleah and a Carlata.

You need someone who is going to be invested enough to learn everyone's story, because as Maleah loves to say, "Every felon has a story." It's about being able to connect with that person and understand what that story is about and what their life circumstances are around that. I love when she gets in front of a group and she starts talking about... Her first thought was, "I'm going to go in." And she would sit down in front of a group of people, she'd say, "Okay, give us your low-level folks. Give us your low-level crimes, some of your clean crimes. Give us those people. That's comfortable for us." And then people started pushing the envelope and changing the culture and having conversations about the fact that every felon has a story. Maybe we all are one night away or one bad decision away from something happening and we do need a second chance. So I love that that is morphed into that conversation for her.

Maleah, she is a storyteller. She has an impact on culture and she creates a level of trust that I've never seen before. It's about trust not only from the participants in the program but also right from the upper leadership to say, "Yeah, we're going to do this." The success that she's had in Missouri... I mean, they've had 50, 60 people come through there. That's untapped amount of resources that didn't exist before or did exist but didn't get the proper attention that it needed. To be successful, you need to have somebody who's going to be able to change a culture, have real conversations and influence both sides of that table and Maleah does that. That's where she shines, but then also be able to have those real conversations with folks and individuals and to get to a level of support that's just absolutely impressive.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah. 

Maureen Greeves: Yeah. 

Heidi J Ellsworth: And I see Tina just nodding and going... What are some of your thoughts on that support and on the program, watching the program and Tremco grow?

Tina Talbot: Honestly, I love it. Very early on, when I started here, I was hearing them talk about this program. There were times that they reached out and said, "Hey, what do you know about this being from that area and what happened on the inside?" Plus, previously I was in the banking industry. So it's like, "Okay, as far as... What can you recommend they take if they're just fresh out of prison to get an account?" I had a little bit of background on both. I loved it. I wanted to see it succeed so much because there's so many people... I get a little emotional. There's so many people that they do have a story and you don't realize when you're on the outside looking in. You just assume that everybody in there deserves to be in there, but not everybody... They just are a bad decision away from ending up in a place like that.

That doesn't necessarily mean they're a bad person. It's just they made a poor choice and something happened. I knew that I was a good person and I was a hard worker and I just wanted everybody to have that chance. To find the company that was willing to do that, it was amazing. I was willing to help wherever I could. When they talked about this program and we went to National Women in Roofing Convention and they're like, "Hey, we want you to talk about it and stuff," I said, "Absolutely." I don't have a problem talking about my story. And if I could put in a plug for this program so we can help other people, I'll do it.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah. That is so... Wow. Lorna, I'm so glad you're on here. Lorna is on here. Lorna's with Tremco, does recruiting, but she's also well known throughout the industry for doing a lot of things. Lorna said, "Glad to have joined this insightful conversation. As a firm believer in the 2nd Chance program, I am proud to be part of Tremco and work alongside these amazing ladies. In the past, I've had the privilege of working with another 2nd Chance program in Minnesota where I supported individuals in the journey to reintegrate into the workforce by visiting prisons and halfway houses. Loving every moment of this experience." Lorna, thank you. Anybody else out there? If you have questions, thoughts, comments, anything that you want to share with these ladies, with everybody else, please, the chat is open. Please let us know what you're thinking. 

I do want to really come back and hone in and talk a little bit about... Just because I have sat in many meetings. I've sat in NRCA meetings, I've sat in a lot of different regional associations and this has been a topic. People want to say, "How do we do this? How do we help 2nd Chances? What do we do?" But very few people have actually been able to do it because of the challenges around that. Everything I'm hearing, it's all about support. But Lisa, I would love to have you just talk a little bit about where do you even start. If you want to start hiring, who do you get in touch with? I mean, I think for a lot of people this would be very daunting.

Lisa Holmes: Oh, that's a good question. I guess, from my perspective, been working inside of the prison for individuals coming out, they always say, "We've got this list of felon-friendly employers, but you can search that online." But sometimes I think even they know that if you're a felon, they may not still hire you even though they say they're felon-friendly. I would say we always tell the guys when they're getting out, they need to be honest. The guys need... I may not be quite answering your question, but the guys need to be honest when they are applying for a job. Because if you don't put that on there that you were incarcerated or that you do have a criminal background, then they're immediately going to see you as a liar. 

We've taught these guys that, "Yes, you have this background. You don't have to be detailed, but you do need to be able to acknowledge the fact that you do have this background, because if they do the background check and they find this, you're not going to have that employer." I think the big thing that the prisons need to try to get more companies to come in, such as WTI that are willing to train individuals and then give them a chance once they're out. I'm not sure if I quite answered your question or not, but that is...

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah. And you did say one thing that... I mean, you said a lot of things. It's very good. And I think for both sides they need to look at that, but one of the things you just said was a felon-friendly list. Thinking about that for roofing companies that are out there, maybe just even starting there, starting that you are willing to get your name on that list. Go online, Google, go to the Department of Corrections and see what kind of lists you can get on. I know, in fact, in my mind, I'm trying to come up with the name of the roofing company, but I can't think of it right now out east, but they've been doing that exact same thing to be there. With the labor shortage, it's really important. 

Cindy, one of the things I think about is you talked about training and you talked about being a woman on the roof as you're out there. A lot of people are going to think maybe that isn't a good fit, but you have obviously shown that it's a great fit. Just for other women coming out of correctional facilities, considering roofing as a career, why should they?

Cindy Barnwell: I mean, because some women can do anything a man can do. I mean, when it comes to roofing or what I'm doing, I'm not in production. Production is a little more labor intense, but there's women that actually do that and that can do as much as the guys. I heard somebody tell me recently that one of the girls run circles around the guys. I think women feel the need like I did to prove myself, so I would carry all the heavy pails, I would pull up all the heavy stuff, I would help carry the ladder and set it up. I think women shouldn't be intimidated at all by the men or the labor, because, honestly, what I do is not really that hard. It's intimidating at first because you know it's going to be all guys and you don't know what to expect. And then they're looking at you, "What can you do that we can do?" But actually, I haven't really came across anything that they can do that I can't. I'm a little bit older, so these younger women, really... I don't see what would hold them back. Just the thought of being around, but I actually have fun. I do, because at first they wouldn't open up to me at all. And now we joke around and I can hang with them, but I think it's great. I love it and I think more women should do it.

Heidi J Ellsworth: That is so awesome. Let's talk a little bit about retention, because I think that is... We know that not everybody has had the success that Cindy, you and Tina have had. But Maureen, when you're really looking at retention, how has that looked over the years and what are some of the things that are really important? I mean, I know the training up front, but then how do you keep that retention over the years?

Maureen Greeves: Yeah. I mean, you know that the construction industry doesn't have the greatest retention numbers. It's probably one of the worst performing if you look at all the industries and all the career opportunities. But I think what makes Maleah and the ELEVATE Second Chance program a little different is that there is a group of people that put their arms around you and say, "No, we're not going to let you go. We're going to help figure out what these barriers are. We're going to help figure out what these challenges are." I go back to one of the things that was set very early on in the inception of this program is rising tide lifts all boats. We're all moving collectively together. We want to all be successful together. I think that it's about the support, but that doesn't come with a cost.

There's a sacrifice that Maleah and Carlata take. Maleah's not at home very much. She's traveling a lot. It's a lot on a person's life and she is a person who's readily available. Her phone, she's going to answer that phone call from you. If it's at 10:00 at night, she knows she needs to answer it even more so. She's had some of those late night conversations with folks and I think that's what makes it successful. You have to have a person who's willing to get into a little bit of an uncomfortable situation and put themselves out there and make some sacrifices for others. I think that's one of the key things to retention and I think the ability to have conversations constantly. 

When you have somebody that knows their people like Maleah does, she's always looking for those opportunities. Somebody said, "Cindy's going to be better off over here." Brittany Randall knows her team. She's thinking, "Oh, we're going to... Cindy's going to be successful over here in the inspections," because she knows who her people are. She knows her team. And Maleah's going to look and say, "You know what? You really should start thinking about moving into a different type of role. Let's get you over into the construction management side of things. You seem to have a different mindset that would work better over here." It's about leaders knowing who their resources are and really getting to know them that I think makes the difference. Being able to provide those career opportunities and couple that with the support level is critical.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Tina, you've had that experience, right? I mean, when you came in, you're continually getting new things, new opportunities. Tell us a little bit about that.

Tina Talbot: Absolutely. I started out just being trained and going through the whole process and, "Okay, what am I going to do?" And, "Okay, why don't we stick you with Grainger and doing PPE order?" I mean, let's be honest, I like to shop online, so I'm comfortable with that. I can get into those websites and I can do all that, and so I did that. And then any other thing that came up where I was like, "Ask me. ask me. I'm more than willing to step up and work on this." It's like I like learning new things. I've always liked learning new things. I like to understand how the process works. Even my old job, I used to train tellers for a living and I would always say, "Send me to electronic services. I want to know why it takes so long to look up credit card fraud. I want to word from that end." 

It's like, "Send me to customer service and let me answer the phone. Let me get on chat. Let me do all that, so I understand it from the inside so I can train it better." It's the same thing with this company. It's like, "Okay, show me something. Let me learn it." I like to dabble in everything. Anything that they throw at me, I would love to do and learn and they're more than willing to do it. So I'm thankful because they have faith in me, they have faith that I can do it, [inaudible 00:47:00]. 

Maureen Greeves: [inaudible 00:47:00] amazing job. 

Tina Talbot: Thank you. 

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah. Sandy, thank you. Sandy just chatted in. "Hello, everyone. I work for CentiMark commercial roofing company. We do not do background checks. I go to as many correctional facilities to participate in job resource fairs. There are a lot more opportunities out there for felons than there was years ago. The main thing I tell them is they have to make the call if they're interested in a company." Sandy, we would love to talk to you. Share your story with us at RoofersCoffeeShop. Tell us about how this is going, because, again... I mean, here you go. CentiMark, WTI, Tremco, I mean, these are some amazing companies that are really taking that step forward. Thank you. Thank you so much. 

I want to make sure we have a little bit of time. I'm going to reshare our screen here. Tina, you have been involved in, really, being an advocate against domestic violence and helping domestic violence survivors. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?

Tina Talbot: I went to prison for 20 months and the reason for that was I was in a relationship for almost 25 years. 24 years of that was abusive and I was trying to raise a son as well who's special needs. He's ASD autistic, he's on the spectrum and he's non-verbal. Just to make a long story short, as the relationship progressed and my son was found to have special needs, his father just got angrier and angrier. In self-preservation, I had to do something that was very difficult to do, but it was either we would die at his hands or I would have to take care of that situation. Because of that and because there was so much information about the abuse that had taken place and the hospital visits I had made and the broken bones that I've had, it was so documented as to what type of person he was by the school, by the subdivision, by people that had come into contact with him, by law enforcement themselves.

I did take a plea deal, which sent me to prison for 20 months, but I was able to get out. I did have to go in front of the parole board and plead my case and talk about it and I was able to get out. Since then, for the first two years, I kind of laid low because I was on parole. I did have to report every month and make sure that I wasn't in the limelight for any reason, so I behaved myself. I had done a lot of time thinking in prison and I said, "Once I get out of prison, I want to take my experience and what I've learned from this." I want to help other people to maybe keep them out of that situation or show them designs to look for so that they don't get in that type of relationship and don't end up in the same place I was.

I couldn't tell you how many women have come to me and told me, "I was almost where you were, Tina. I could have done that." It's an amazing feeling. I've gone to the State Capitol in Michigan and I've spoken on behalf of some of the women that are still in prison and have been there a very long time for protecting themselves against an abusive spouse. I have done a podcast, a three-part podcast, about my relationship with my husband, which is out there. It's on Spotify or Prime and it's The Tina Talbot Story. If you all want to listen to that, putting in a plug for it. It just tells you a little bit more about my case. I have some opportunities coming up where I can get out there and I can speak more. 

There's been articles written and I was on the news a lot. Come May of this next year, I've been invited to be the keynote speaker for a women's resource center in Traverse City, Michigan. I'm really excited about that because I'll have the opportunity to talk to more women about what happened to me and about being an abusive relationship and getting out.

Heidi J Ellsworth: I am humbled. You are amazing, Tina. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that story and thank you for helping other women. I know you spoke at National Women in Roofing last year and we just have Karen coming in and saying, "We should have you talk again. It's such a great topic." Maureen, we're going to need to get that out there, this topic overall with everything. I think you guys... I know you did speak on it a little bit last year, but this needs to be a topic that we keep talking about that doesn't go anywhere. Lorna said, "Educating employees in the company about the 2nd Chance program is crucial. This initiative helps support new coworkers ultimately boosting retention rates. It's vital to understand that individuals in this program face numerous challenges at work and within their families." I think that was one of the things that I would love for you to finish up here, both Tina and Cindy, is you... I know when we were talking about this earlier on. There are a lot of challenges when you first come out of transportation, housing, all of those kinds of things. And Tina, maybe you can talk just a little bit about that and then just everyone else helping and reaching out for these kind of programs.

Tina Talbot: I was one of the lucky ones, because through the course of my case, I anticipated that I would be going away because of the severity of what I had done. I had provided for my entire family our whole relationship, so I own the home. I was able to liquidate my retirement from my old employer because I was terminated with that company, obviously and I was able to keep my home going while I was put away. I had an old car that was parked in the garage that had been in an accident and I paid as well to have that fixed so I would have a vehicle when I came out. But a lot of these people, they come out with nothing. They come out with no resources. They've maybe upset family members that are like, "No, I'm not willing to put you up." 

You have no place to stay. You don't have a job to walk into. I mean, I was truly blessed and I've done many interviews with people after getting out and they said, "Did they set you up for success once you get out of prison?" I said, "Absolutely not. They don't set you up for success." It's like they don't tell you anything. They give you your debit card from the money you had in there, they give you your birth certificate, your Social Security card, they give you the name of your [inaudible 00:54:31] and they're like, "See you." I had to actually go out there and find out that I qualified for Medicaid and food stamps and all the things that I could get. I had to do that because I didn't get set up by the prison. They didn't do anything like that. 

So just being able to find a program like this so important, so important. So important. Nobody wants that stress. when you get out of prison, it's already stressful enough. Who's going to pick me up? Am I going to have to ride the bus home? I mean, how am I going to get the money to do this? Who wants to deal with the stress of not knowing where they're going to live tomorrow or stay tomorrow or they're going to be in a halfway house? Or in my case, I had a son I had to worry about. It's like I wanted to get home and I wanted to see him and get him back. It's so vitally important and this program is just amazing.

Maureen Greeves: I think Lisa is a great person to bounce these ideas off, too, in this topic, just looking at timeframes we have. But I think we learned a lot, too, as a company, right? When we went in, Maleah goes in, she interviews people, they make it through the interview process and then you have a job with us. You have a job with us. All you got to do is call us, but you have a job with us. Then they would start working and they'd get their paycheck. I'm like, "You got to put that in the bank." "Well, I don't have an account. I can't get an account. Well, I can't get an account. I don't have a driver's license. I don't have my Social Security card. I don't have access to go get those files. The home that I used to live in is gone. My parents didn't take care of those things." 

There's a whole lot of challenges and barriers for access to documentation. Tina, you at least had that access. Some people don't have access to any of it. Any of it, so they can't even get a bank account. And then they ask them to travel. Well, you can't travel. You got travel limitations. And if I'm getting a check and I don't have the ability to get that check, it's going to some random address. I don't even have the opportunity to get it deposited automatically into my account. It's just one challenge after another. I think that, Lisa, you and Maleah and the Department of Corrections in Missouri made some massive changes there and really did work to try to get that changed, right?

Lisa Holmes: Yes, we did. Initially, everybody's able to get a birth certificate, a driver's license, Social Security card. But one of the restrictions that the Department of Corrections had when I was there, you could only get one. They would only allow you one. If you came back into the institution two or three times, you weren't able to get another one. Well, then Maleah, there was a few people that were not able to get a second one, so she had us put it on her card and they bought the birth certificate so that we could finish the process of getting a social security card and then an ID for the individuals. But now I've been told that they've changed that and they're allowing them to have more than one birth certificate, should they come back into the institution.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Ladies, I tell you, we could go for another hour. You've all been so amazing and awesome and I do want to read this from Miriam because it's so beautiful. She said, "You should be so proud of yourselves. This just goes to show what is possible when a company puts in a genuine, heartfelt effort and meets individuals willing to change their life for the better halfway. Thank you for having this webinar." Thank you, Miriam. And Lorna said the same thing. I am going to say to all of you, thank you so much for your time today. Cindy, we're going to get you back up on that roof. Thank you for taking time out in your truck. Thank you, all. This has just been, again, WTI Tremco, you guys are leading the way. Thank you so much.

Maureen Greeves: Thanks so much. 

Cindy Barnwell: Thank you.

Tina Talbot: Thank you.

Outro: I do want to let... Thank you. Next week, we are at METALCON. We're going to be having live Coffee Conversations sponsored by New Tech Machinery. Join us. It will be on Wednesday at 2:00 PM Eastern. You'll see that, of course, on the site. Be sure to sign up. Again, thank you all for being here today. I hope you're all just a little bit teary because I know I am. Thank you. Thank you, ladies. Thank you so much. And we will be seeing you all on the next Coffee Conversations.