TRYING SOMETHING NEW

This is an old blog post I wrote:

I think a lot of us are stuck in the old way of doing things. The lightening speed of the changes in new technologies in almost too much to absorb. It all seems too complicated. We just learn how to turn it off and on and don't stretch out much past that. You were forced into getting a cell phone, using the ATM and now look at you, you are reading this on the internet.

So you do move forward, but how forward thinking are you when presented with something new for your business? Are you going willingly, do you give things a try when introduced or will you wait until you are forced?

In the past 30 years there is major changes in roofing products. Think about it, until then we were still putting on built up roofing like our fore-fathers did. Now we've got synthetic underlayments, hybrid underlayments, tiles made out of tires, Modified-everything, EPDM, TPO, PVC, KEE and coatings that would have kept the titanic afloat.

Next time your roofing supplier invites you to a demo of the newest thing are you going to go? If you go and it seems viable will you try it, or will you just put the literature in the filing cabinet? Let's just save it for later and go about using that same old product with the same old way of applying it?

Is it that you hate to use your next project as a guinea pig? Is it the time that it will take for the learning curve? Or is it just the reading of directions on the package that you don't want to do?

The problem is with waiting until you HAVE to use it. Now your customer wants it and now you're really behind. Another problem is that whippersnapper competitor doing business down the street, (you know the one, the guy that uses an iPad for estimating), has already been using that new roofing product.

I say go out on a limb - Dinosaurs unite let's be progressive and try something new, (OK try it on your shed first).

I use a variety of tools to brush off roofs before applications. It depends on the tile style, the moss and surrounding trees. I use wire brushes and stiff brooms, but the most effective tool is a 4' 1x2. Within 15 minutes of starting to use it, the abrasion against the tile will sand the end of the 1x2 to the perfect angle for maximum scraping.

I just ordered a roof leaf rake from Amazon that screws onto an extendable pole for an upcoming job.

The most effective moss removal is to go to a pool supply and get the strongest chlorine they have and spray it on and rinse it off. Budget enough to write off a couple of sprayers, it will ruin them. But the runoff management and environmental and regulatory risks are so high that I rarely ever use this method.

This is a picture of my sprayer;

The battery is in the white bucket.

I find that most people that want a moss treatment also want some instant results for their money. I usually wire brush all the moss off manually and sweep the roof and clean the gutters. Blow the roof off with a blower to get rid of any moss residue and then spray with a moss killer. Probably a more expensive option but with instant results plus will stay moss free longer in my opinion. Used to use zinc sulphate power but can no longer purchase it after some homeowner used 50 lbs on their roof and it washed off into a fish bearing stream.

I'd like to know what Woody does because he clearly uses this stuff on a regular basis, but in the meantime, Lefty, I'll say that when I do them and the moss is heavy, I dry-brush it off first and then spray it. That might not be necessary, but the people I've done it for haven't wanted to wait around for winter storms to rinse off the dead material and be stuck looking at it on their roof until then.

Thank You, Woody

What kind of nozzle set up do you use? When you sprayed the heavy moss, how long till the moss is gone?

S-I-a, I second your remarks on Titanium, although I favor the 50.

Lefty and EGG,

I did a test on my shop for many years. Because it is under mature fir trees, it gets blown off every year. I started testing three things, W&F, Lilly-Miller Mossout, and nothing. The results after two years were L-M Mossout barely beat doing nothing, but the W&F had about 85-90% less moss. There was still moss there and without side-by side comparison, I might have thought it wasn't working all that well. After stopping the side-by-side, I tested to see if by only spraying W&F, I could get the whole side to match the test area that always had W&F. It took 3 applications over two years to get it all the same.

I use 10 and 15 gallon electric sprayers made to be mounted on ATVs. I mount them on hand trucks and power them with tractor batteries. I bought my first one from a farm supply place for about $250. It had a problem with pressure going much higher than two stories, so I bought a bigger motor for it.

I bought another one for $99 at Harbor Freight. I actually prefer spraying with the cheap unit, but the big one is needed when height is an issue. They both came with short hoses and I added rubber air hoses to both of them.

I use spraying W&F as part of repeat maintenance spiel, so the fact that it needs to be re-applied every 2 years is actually a plus. The "roof tune up" that accompanies the spraying is where I make my money, the W&F is my loss leader (actually break-even leader).

Titanium 30 underlay was probably the biggest time saver for me as I could watertight a roof and not worry about tarping it off at night if it rained. Also no wrinkled felt from the dew or humidity.

As far as tools, my Ridgid Flushcut has proved to be my favorite new technology item.

Woody, ROTFL!! By the way, the first time I used one of those new-fangled sawzalls, my left hand was digging down into the throat trying to twist it when my right hand got the great idea to squeeze the trigger and run it up into amore user-friendly position without saying anything to my left hand and my roofer-brain just sat there watching it all happen.

I spray the Wet & Forget on with a three-gallon hand sprayer when the moss is dry and thirsty. It works, but after a couple of years it starts to take hold again. Maybe Woody has a more advanced technique to share. I've used it on half a dozen jobs, one was my own home and have a couple coming up.

Andy, I bought a felt slitter and cut my own starter and bleeder strips out of rolls of my choice. If you use sharp, new blades, you can rip S/A materials with it too. Plus, you can rip any other type of felts into widths of your choosing, like half-rolls, etc. in one-inch increments. It's paid for itself many many times over. Use up all my butt-rolls while I'm at it. Won't work on any of the extra wide synthetics out there now. Metric or less.

The Tramex moisture meter was one of my more recent acquisitions, ten years or more though, and the WUKO unibender which I use surprisingly often for all sorts of things that come up on site at the spur of the moment.

Working the bugs out of the new system is always fun. I hope that the 2 scroll bars is a bug in the system. Otherwise we will need 3 hands to read the posts.

Woody, How does the Wet and Forget work? Are you satisfied with the results?

What exactly is gained by having two scroll bars? Sure, it's different, but it ain't no keyless sawzall.

egg Said: Aside from the signature, what does anyone really own and what do any of us really have?

And therein lies the problem with many buyers as well, not just the roofers, or bakers, or candlestick makers.

"Why should I put on a roof that will last 50 years when I'm only gonna be around for 30?"

"Hey, I retire in 5, what do I care how long it lasts?"

and the variances continue. It's a rare day for me to work for someone with that attitude. And the kind of people that say "I want the guy that follows me to say I did a good job" are becoming rarer by the day. It's a nation where the best of the best can make money working for the few that demand it, and rest have to chase after the masses.

I don't think it's so much about sheeple as it is a complete re-wiring of the public mentality. It's reflected in our politics right down to our grocery shopping.

"...Anyway so much to say and so little room to say it! ..."

Once upon a time when I was in my early twenties, I drank way too much beer at the pub after a long day of classes. This was way before MADD put the heat on the good-old-boys. Driving home to the little, dilapidated shack I was living in as a working student, I got terribly hungry and stopped in at a local, now defunct, Foster's Freeze and ordered a steak sandwich with a milkshake to go. I have to say that at the time they both tasted sublime and I still remember it that way.

I arrived home in the dark, fumbled for my keys, and my head started to get that telltale spin which occasionally happens when you've gone way over the line, a little nausea followed by an avalanche of nausea, followed by vomiting and a beeline crash into bed.

Awakening the next morning quite a little worse for wear, and remembering the nausea incident, I went in search of whatever mess I'd made that needed a prompt cleaning up. Oh yeah, feeling sheepish and remorseful, swearing never to do that sort of thing again, I opened the front door and bending down on my knees, inspected the evidence on the porch.

There was nothing there except for a little pile of white solid plastic foam and a puddle of grease. Completely odorless. Anyone with an ounce of objectivity would have to call that permanent food.

Fast-forward about fifty years. My wife just returned from two weeks in Tahiti. Swam and snorkeled, shopped for a "black" pearl ring, saw the stone fish, the reef fish, the rays, the sharks. Talked about the vivid blue of the coral. Mentioned that a very large amount of the coral, though, looks like grey, dead, brains. Water's warming. Call it temporary coral. Whatcha gonna do?

So two guys offload a unit of plywood. Flop them down in a pile and call it good. See ya later, call me on the next one...

Two other guys offload a unit of plywood, two sheets at a time, and match all the edges. Walk away with it looking just like a big clean block, almost like it was still banded. See ya later, have a good weekend...

We are our own signatures and we leave our signature on everything we touch. Kilroy was here. That signature goes onto a banana cream pie that lasts for one day if it's lucky, or stone wall petroglyph that sticks around after all our descendants are dead. Aside from the signature, what does anyone really own and what do any of us really have?

Great topic! And i like your post roofdude.

Its taking a while to sink in but although it cant be, im starting to think yall really do believe modern roofing is somehow better than before.

Im lucky to have my friend Mark down here. Hes a former american, 63 yrs old, been here almost 30yrs and been roofing the whole of his life. At least when we link, we can talk about "the good ol days" of roofing. Mark has a production company doing mostly snap lock aluminum and tpo, etc... I only install slate, clay, hardwood and copper. Him and i should be oil and water like i and yall. Why we are not....

We both witness, process and believe in reality. Infact every real roofer ive ever met knows roofing hit its pinnacle over a century ago and been sliding down fast ever since. Well construction in general but lets stick to roofing. This is not an opinion, real documented history proves this.

Mark tries daily to "save" me. He doesnt do production work because its so good or because he believes in it. He does it because sheep are knocking down his door to get it and at 63 what other choice does he have? We know the industry is pushing products that are complete compromises. They compromise quality and longevity for cheaper price and ease of installation.

Mark says i will be broke forever trying to do proper work. He drives by my job every day and says " im going to deposit another check, what you doing? Oh yeah folding seams harrr!!!" Mark has nothing but respect for my work. Only he says he tried it too and it doesnt make you money these days. He respects my genius and i respect his, only he firmly believes im misplacing mine. Whenever i get stuck, he has real answers yet he sells cheap fast sloppy compromises. Mark is very clear that profit drives his business. To get him to talk about yalls stuff youd have to make the conversation about money. If the conversations about proper work, he will sound like me, kurtis and ross perot together!

Mark hasnt been in the usa for almost 30yrs. Its hard to leave real freedom. When i tell him about this forum he gets all worked up. I tell him americans really believe roofing tech is getting better and roofs are lasting longer, he gets all worked up and takes a while to calm down. At first he didnt believe me but i showed him. Anyway leads the both of us back to exactly why we are where we are.

So try new things, sure. But with skepticism just like roofdude said. But most often, just reading and breaking it down is enough. I always just simply ask to see the 50 yr old roof. Cant see it, touch it, dont want it.

Lets take a more quantum look at this.... We have roofs that last 200yrs plus. From there we continually compromise the products and installation with the intention to reduce costs, weigh less, easier to install, faster to install, make more money, etc. Based on that, it would be completely by mistake if a consumer was to somehow gain from all of this.

If round wheels work, should we be spending all of our time improving the square to roll?! All of our greatest minds just staring at this square, trying everything they can think of, imagine where we would be.

The movie "idiocracy" couldnt have been more spot on.

This age is one of knowledge and much of it incorrect. Even though most people are living a virtual reality its important to stay plugged in. Its too bad roofers cant come here for fellowship and improve our skills, stay sharp and most importantly, harness the power of our unity to keep sense in our industry.

A sucker is born every day and yes collectively these suckers make up the masses. They create demand. Today america demands cheap and fast at any cost. Yet they want claims of longevity. But are willing to accept numbers instead of proof.

I just see it like this, if i wanted to supply the scratch to the itching ears of gullable, weak, ignorant people with their minds packed full of preconceived notions and make believe, id start a church......far more profitable.

As a roofer i say supply demand to get the money you need, do proper work as a hobby or an attempt to build good character. I wish we as roofers could be equally impressed by both skill and profit but separate the two. I respect the hell out of people who make money and those of us who put profit aside to create a masterpiece deserve at least the same respect if not more.

Sheep want stuff and you can profit giving it to them? Go for it! I stick with proper work because of the amazing characters i meet and i love practicing behaviors that lead to good character myself as this is my supreme goal. I may start doing production work this year as i need money but i will never get lost in believing im doing something "better" or "sensible".

Anyway so much to say and so little room to say it! Respect

Rd's examples remind me of a couple of simple new things I find valuable.

Sawzalls not needing a key or allen wrench to change a blade are a real innovation to me. No more aggravation trying to find where the wrench fell out of the holder.

After 2008, I was out of new construction for a couple of years. When I returned, I was surprised that most of the framers were using what looked like extension cords for air hoses. I had been old-school where the best hoses were rubber and heavy, but after trying the new synthetic hoses, I now use my old rubber hoses for spraying on Wet and Forget.

I've been willing to, & have tried many new things over the last couple decades. There's been many positive new products, & or tools come along in my career so far.

I remember when I discovered the Shingle Eater...lol. Wow..$70 for a tear-off tool..?!?! Shovels were cheap, the blisters were free. Wouldn't attempt to tear-off without one today.

One of my favorites, the starter strip rolls. I've been using these forever it seems now. Gotta be 15yrs or more now, hell maybe 20. Not sure when they came out. Pretty much eliminated capillary action on eaves. I've never been one who wanted to put the drip edge on first. I prefer the I&W shield to be in direct contact on the eave, & in some scenarios wrap over the fascia. Putting the starter roll on top of the drip edge, is clean & leak/back up free. When I started using it, I found it was less expensive than buying pre-cut starter, & or more efficient than cutting starter out of 3-tabs. I run into people all the time that have never seen it still. I've still yet to tear a shingle roof off that had it installed. In my area, 99% of the shingle roofs I have torn off, have a flipped 3-tab for starter. Doing very little to help the edge detail in appearance, & or waterproofing.

I was a modified fan years ago. Insurance costs for open flames, kinda nixed that, well....plus the stress of someone burning a building down...lol. I was curious when the self adhered modifieds came out. Although, became very skeptical seeing multiple failures when inspecting some roofs. Eventually, I bought a couple squares of it, & put it on a chicken coop, & barn. Kind of my own test case. Was pretty impressed with how it looked after five years in the elements, & pigeons on it. Have used it in a few scenarios since, ie: porches, small areas etc. Haven't done a complete job with it but do have some confidence in it.

When TPO became the craze.... I remained skeptical. Saw way too many material failures, to go along with some pretty ridiculous labor issues. I opted to try a pvc. The duralast band wagon was full but, taking anyone who would get on at the time. While pitched hard, I remained skeptical for the same reasons as TPO. I've installed over a million square feet of PVC, oldest one is 15yrs old now. Have had zero material failures/issues. I still install it with confidence.

I tried coatings & such. With a decent level of skepticism, I tried emulsion, & polyurea. They have their place no doubt. Definitely a learning curve but, not sure that the learning curve is any more significant than any other product or system. For me, they became cost prohibitive, in the way I wanted (felt I needed) to install them. So much so that, I could install my pvc of choice competitively when compared to them. They have their own particulars and really only become a viable option, in my mind at least, under certain rare circumstances.

When it comes to new products, methods, etc.... It's much like anything else. Ya gotta factor in the learning curve, balance the liability of said learning curve, & the product itself. Nobody wants to install a roof system, have it fail, & end up re-roofing it at your own expense with a system you had in your repertoire to begin with. Have one of those t-shirts hanging in my closet. :dry:

This doesn't even begin to talk about the business end of things, marketing, management, technology, social media, etc.... Of which, I find much easier to embrace than changes/developments in the field. Today, Im more of a 3-4 trick pony relying on materials, & field techniques that I KNOW work & have witnessed working for multiple decades. I'm all for tools that make our jobs easier, technology, & some additives, etc... However, I'm more skeptical today with new "systems" than anything else. I'm simply the product of my own experience. I'd like to make it to the finish line without buying any more t-shirts......