Third party inspections

How would you feel if your bid was accepted by the homeowner only on the condition that a third party would inspect the roof.

Because now the homeowner has shared the company name with you and while researching, you find that the company does not do any roofing (no competion) and only operates in an advisory capacity to residential roofing. Has over 20 years in the industry.

I have also installed many many tons of tile in the past on open sheathing. If it were still legal I'd do it again without batting an eye. But I'll tell you what... I have seen way too much ancient 30# rag felt to have much respect for a membrane that consists of one layer of it. There's that common phenomenon where something is greater than the sum of its parts. A two-ply membrane laid shingle fashion is way, way better than twice as good as one ply. You put one of those under tile and lay it down religiously like Woody describes and thirty years later if you feel like it you can replace the whole shooting match without touching it. I have a lot of axes to grind myself so I respect the impulse here, but a two-ply membrane is vastly superior to one layer and that is just a fact. Had a lot of competitors selling a base and two glass against my base and three. I don't really care how they may have explained it. You're already there, it's cheap, and it's better.

wy....

It's refreshing to run across a guy who really seems to understand tile roofing....Yes, the deep channel is superior, however for the reasons you mentioned, we rarely use/used it....

When we started up in Colorado in 92' there was some real nuckle-headed notions embedded in the local roofing industry concerning tile roofing,(some exist to this day),....It took a couple of years, but we finally got things going in the right direction....

Tile is still unjustly frowned upon here, by many....Especially in the mountain communities....One only has to inspect a couple of typical installations to learn why....

I agree with your assessment of relying on underlayment, Tom. I have one competitor here that claims his roofs are best because he always uses two layers of 40 lb for underlayment. I take it as an admission of his incompetence. That said, I'm also fanatical that the underlayment be installed right, all tears and holes sealed, goes up walls, has divertors at every penetration, etc.

On valley metal, for years I used the deep-channel style valley. The kind that laps over the battens at the edges. But it was only economically feasible if it was made from 24" stock. When bent into shape though, it was just under the 22" minimum for tile spec'd by UBC. At the time, I was distributing for Monier and paying almost a dollar per foot more than the valley I was buying from Monier to resale to my roofer customers. I decided for liability avoidance issues that I would switch to only using valley metal bought from the tile manufacturer, so I switched to the stock open (2-v) Monier valley. I was doing a lot more vollume then and it probably saved me over $10,000 per year, but I still think the deep-channel valley was a better product.

This has strayed to another topic.

The root of most all "leaks" pertainig to tile roofs in the U.S. has to do with dependency on the underpayment, rather than the primary tile material....We have conrete tile roof applications in alpine regions, in place for 20+ years, with no underlayment what-so-ever, functioning pefectly.

One the best things ever to come about, was the roofing manufacture's mimicking of our multi-diverter walley metal we began fabricating and utilized as a STANDARD detail in the early 90's.

Robby, I wish I was still just a 20 year youngster. It'll be 38 years this fall. I said I'd worked 20 years before using batten extenders. Although before that I had worked with variations of L-shaped and U-shaped flashings that fit over the battens for extenders that actually work better than the plastic extenders because they don't require the support legs the plastic extenders have.

As for providing drainage, I think extenders are only required on flat tile. If you can't create an opening in a Roma or Villa style tile bigger than the openings in batten extenders, you probably shouldn't be doing tile. On flat tile, what works best depends on the debris the valley gets. Extenders drain needles better but not larger leaves than properly (1/3 to 2/3 strategically removed) knocked off lugs.

One of the best things for drainage is to clip the upper corner (like is done sometimes for comp) of the tile in the valley.

In your 20 years experience have you noticed more problems with with extenders clogging up the valley vs. knocking off the lugs?

Robby, the manufacturer most used up here, MonierLifetile defers installation details to TRI specs, where they are an option. M-L brochures show both using extenders and not using them. Where they show using them is on their elevated battens where they're needed to support the tile as well as provide drainage.

Most valley repairs around here tend to be battens nailed directly over the felt and not elevated.

No problem with a 3rd party inspection, but it must be based upon a previously agreed upon specification, not just his "opinion".

They are frequently used as a crutch for inexperience.

This MAY be true in some sence...but another question pops up. Does the manufacturer reccomend or require the use of batten extenders for the particular tile used?

And you are right, I would rather change out the vally metal as well....something to think about before you display a detail like that.

Robby, if you have the valley opened up for repairs the way he shows, it only takes a moment more to remove at least the bottom valley metal where there will likely be underlayment damage if the damming has been going on very long. Plus it's not that unusual to find a nail or tile chunk in the middle of the valley penetrating the felt. Repairing damaged underlayment later would involve all the labor extended PLUS removing (and probably breaking) the batten extenders. Also, I would more than likely replace a single-v valley with a 6-v valley, which would only add a miniscule amount of labor. And since the 6-v valley doesn't need the extenders, part of the metal cost would be covered by the savings of not using extenders.

There are certain circumstances where batten extenders are very useful and for those rare situations, I do use them. But I also installed tile for over 20 years before I ever saw batten extenders and know how to properly remove lugs for drainage. They are frequently used as a crutch for inexperience.

"WWoody" What don't you like about his repairs...is it the batten exendors he used?

Apparently woody and I both find people who pretend to expertise they do not have annoying. Well, let's just say 'perplexing.' I met a waterproofing consultant recently. He seemed like an ok guy; I would say above average. Then he sends out a detail showing headwall flashing 4 inches up the wall and two inches in the field with a hem and kick and with an "optional course" glued on top. rotfl. I compromised with the builder and got it extended to 4 inches w/no hem and glued the optional course on as requested. Copper flashing too. Talk about dumb. Whatever. Nothing surprises me when it comes to consultants. Usually the bigger the hat, the smaller the head, but not always. For example: Richard Fricklas, best of the best. We've got one out here named Chuck Peterson who is no slouch either. Even these guys, though, probably have a decided tendency to overlook truth when the ego is casting its shadow on it. The more you have seen and heard, or think you have seen and heard, the greater the risk that at any given moment you will neither see nor hear. I have no doubt that when things get sketchy, they assume the momentum of reputation, whether earned or unearned, will carry them through and it no doubt usually does. They don't call it 'holding sway' for nothing.

TomB, neither of those fit, his last name is Jensen.

I would call for a progress inspection......

wywoody,

Who's the instructor? gary m.... jerry v.?