Roofing contractor defined

lanny Said: ---The IRS has a lengthy definition of what a true sub is. Most of what I read about here are not true subs by the IRS definition. ---An IRS audit will take place and big fines and back taxes will be due in many cases. ---Basically to be a sub you must be a true contractor in your own right. Otherwise you are just an employee regardless of whether or not you are paying piecework. ---I know of a local company that paid piecework. They got audited by Labor & Industries in my state ( Washington). The auditor did not accept their hours worked formula. That is, in Wa you are charged around $5/hr for employees for injury & disability. Well, piecework requires one to figure out the hours worked based upon NOT the wages paid (some make more than others for the same time spent if you pay piecework) but the actual hours. The end result was they were charged $19,000 from the audit and required to use timecards for all employees. ---I have worked piecework many times when I first started roofing. However, all my employees are hourly. I dont want the goal to be time. I want the goal to be quality. I dont care how long it takes...just do it right. I used to be rush, rush, rush...We slam banged roofs so fast that I look back and wonder how we ever got away with some of the work we did. We werent sloppy on purpose. But we rushed and quality was sacrificed. Lets face it ...the employee does not care as much as the owner. Now as an owner I care. I even say on occasion, Slow down and do a good job!!! Lanny

Your right thats part of the criteria i listed above about not telling them when to show up, when to leave and restricting them to only work for me. Thats part of it as is having an asumed name or DBA and all their own tools. if they borrow your tools they are not subs. you can rent them out but not borrow. ie trailers, nail guns...even a hammer.

TomB Said: JSC....Isnt this just a Jim-Dandy of a mess?

Holy Moly yes. It's bad enough that this happens in Calif where it's illegal to be a subcontractor unless you are licensed. Try getting a job from a totally cost-oriented customer when the undergrounders have you beat by the entire amount of the labor burden, and in some cases their work is of decent quality too.

I'm glad you've been able to overcome and prosper in Colorado, Tom. It musta been tough.

I do my own roofing, and by that I mean I nail on the shingles. I don[t do many any more, but they are perfect. That makes me a "roofer" as well as a "roofing contractor"

JSC....Isn't this just a "Jim-Dandy" of a mess?

JSC Said: These subs are unlicensed?

In alot of states there is no licensing...wish there was ...

JSC Said: When a roofing contractor subs out his jobs to another roofing contractor, does the 2nd tier roofer show up with his own advertising visible (logos on shirts, truck signs, etc.)?

no the guys I use dont sell any jobs...they just do them. they do work for a couple other companies when I cant keep em busy. These guys just plain dont want to sell. They dont have bussiness cards or anything.

I think roofing in general has changed a ton in the past 5 years. This world is full of "roofing contractors" who do $20,000,000 in revenue with 4 employees. Your competition is now your friend. We share and co-op many jobs in this area...it is not uncommon for me to bid against my friends, me get the job and have the friends do the work. I have at least 4 other roofing companies that are good friends of mine. We will bid against each other but are always within $10 a sq. of each other.

It is kind of funny when we sometimes show up to do a job...and my crew is the same guys who had bid the job against me. Homeowners never know how to take that. They think we all hate each other when in fact we are all good friends. It's funny when a customer bad mouths one of us, behind backs, then we hear about it an hour later.

I don't require any of my crews remove advertising from their vehicles or shirts on my jobs, nor do they expect it from me on their jobs.

Our main goal in this area is to have the true local contractor get the job, even if it is not us!! We don't want XYZ coming in from Texas or Miami and stealing from our mouths. We have found by joining forces, forming local co-ops with other local contractors, we can and will impact the storm chasers. I seen it work....but you can't do it alone.

These "subs" are unlicensed?

JSC Said: When a roofing contractor subs out his jobs to another roofing contractor, does the 2nd tier roofer show up with his own advertising visible (logos on shirts, truck signs, etc.)?

No. Normally, the guys that are visibly advertising are selling retail. The guys that are subbing are selling wholesale and they lower their chances of being hired by a general, who specializes in roofing, by putting signs on their trucks.

When a roofing contractor subs out his jobs to another roofing contractor, does the 2nd tier roofer show up with his own advertising visible (logos on shirts, truck signs, etc.)?

Amen! ;)

I agree. The big outfit that I worked for would pay $50 per sq to a crew leader who would hire his guys at $35 and would have several of them working (crews). The crews would then hire more n pay em $25. So you got the $25 per sq job. See I have always had the ability to do my own thing but never wanted the responsability. I would rather not worry about anything but doing the roof. No books, no marketing etc. Age and wear n tear have made me switch venues. Now I have to. But that doesn't mean I will tolorate a bad roof job. My crews listen to me because they know I have done it. Hard to make em respect a car salesman on the roof though... They would just go si si and do what they want. I watched it plenty of times when I was with the other company.

I think definition of authentic is in order. Authenticity refers to the truthfulness of origins, attributions, commitments, sincerity, devotion, and intentions. Stick to that model in your life success will follow,lead and surround you.

I like your reply Verified....Sounds like you've got, what works for you, figured out.... We've always predominantly paid residential/sloped roofing on a piece-work basis to our employees....It's always been per square, by the area of the roof, never based on material consumed.

I've dabbled over the years/tried to 'do as the Romans', so-to-speak....To accomodate the available workforce....It typically ends in dissaster or never eally gets started due to the "subs" not being "authentic" contractors....And let's be honest here....Ecept for the very rare occaision, they aren't. If they were, they'd be running their own show....That's another reason for the lack of quality.

A conversation sticks in my head from years past....I was speaking with a GC field super who made mention of a particular Roofing Co. that he was so impressed upon by how they had a couple of employee crews that would go behind their "subs" and/or come out immediatley when called on, to correct deficiencies/finish the roofs. This GC super had come to accept this as acceptable...even good service!

And let's all be truly honest on the reasons for utilizing "subs"....It's to avoid paying appropriate labor burdens. Plain & simple. However, the residential workforce has indeed evolved into mostly suedo-sub roofing crews....mostly ill-trained SOB's....So what's the ethical, "authentic" roofing co. to do?

I feel the majority of residential roofing contractors are merely salesmen/charlitons.

You just clumped salesmen and charlitons together in one massive generalization. Perhaps you might read "Secrets of Closing the Sale" by Zig Ziglar? He does a wonderful chapter on the role of the professional salesperson. I think if you read it, you might develop a new understanding, and appreciation for the sales profession.