Roofing contractor defined

JSC Said: When a roofing contractor subs out his jobs to another roofing contractor, does the 2nd tier roofer show up with his own advertising visible (logos on shirts, truck signs, etc.)?

no the guys I use dont sell any jobs...they just do them. they do work for a couple other companies when I cant keep em busy. These guys just plain dont want to sell. They dont have bussiness cards or anything.

I think roofing in general has changed a ton in the past 5 years. This world is full of "roofing contractors" who do $20,000,000 in revenue with 4 employees. Your competition is now your friend. We share and co-op many jobs in this area...it is not uncommon for me to bid against my friends, me get the job and have the friends do the work. I have at least 4 other roofing companies that are good friends of mine. We will bid against each other but are always within $10 a sq. of each other.

It is kind of funny when we sometimes show up to do a job...and my crew is the same guys who had bid the job against me. Homeowners never know how to take that. They think we all hate each other when in fact we are all good friends. It's funny when a customer bad mouths one of us, behind backs, then we hear about it an hour later.

I don't require any of my crews remove advertising from their vehicles or shirts on my jobs, nor do they expect it from me on their jobs.

Our main goal in this area is to have the true local contractor get the job, even if it is not us!! We don't want XYZ coming in from Texas or Miami and stealing from our mouths. We have found by joining forces, forming local co-ops with other local contractors, we can and will impact the storm chasers. I seen it work....but you can't do it alone.

These "subs" are unlicensed?

JSC Said: When a roofing contractor subs out his jobs to another roofing contractor, does the 2nd tier roofer show up with his own advertising visible (logos on shirts, truck signs, etc.)?

No. Normally, the guys that are visibly advertising are selling retail. The guys that are subbing are selling wholesale and they lower their chances of being hired by a general, who specializes in roofing, by putting signs on their trucks.

When a roofing contractor subs out his jobs to another roofing contractor, does the 2nd tier roofer show up with his own advertising visible (logos on shirts, truck signs, etc.)?

Amen! ;)

I agree. The big outfit that I worked for would pay $50 per sq to a crew leader who would hire his guys at $35 and would have several of them working (crews). The crews would then hire more n pay em $25. So you got the $25 per sq job. See I have always had the ability to do my own thing but never wanted the responsability. I would rather not worry about anything but doing the roof. No books, no marketing etc. Age and wear n tear have made me switch venues. Now I have to. But that doesn't mean I will tolorate a bad roof job. My crews listen to me because they know I have done it. Hard to make em respect a car salesman on the roof though... They would just go si si and do what they want. I watched it plenty of times when I was with the other company.

I think definition of authentic is in order. Authenticity refers to the truthfulness of origins, attributions, commitments, sincerity, devotion, and intentions. Stick to that model in your life success will follow,lead and surround you.

I like your reply Verified....Sounds like you've got, what works for you, figured out.... We've always predominantly paid residential/sloped roofing on a piece-work basis to our employees....It's always been per square, by the area of the roof, never based on material consumed.

I've dabbled over the years/tried to 'do as the Romans', so-to-speak....To accomodate the available workforce....It typically ends in dissaster or never eally gets started due to the "subs" not being "authentic" contractors....And let's be honest here....Ecept for the very rare occaision, they aren't. If they were, they'd be running their own show....That's another reason for the lack of quality.

A conversation sticks in my head from years past....I was speaking with a GC field super who made mention of a particular Roofing Co. that he was so impressed upon by how they had a couple of employee crews that would go behind their "subs" and/or come out immediatley when called on, to correct deficiencies/finish the roofs. This GC super had come to accept this as acceptable...even good service!

And let's all be truly honest on the reasons for utilizing "subs"....It's to avoid paying appropriate labor burdens. Plain & simple. However, the residential workforce has indeed evolved into mostly suedo-sub roofing crews....mostly ill-trained SOB's....So what's the ethical, "authentic" roofing co. to do?

I feel the majority of residential roofing contractors are merely salesmen/charlitons.

You just clumped salesmen and charlitons together in one massive generalization. Perhaps you might read "Secrets of Closing the Sale" by Zig Ziglar? He does a wonderful chapter on the role of the professional salesperson. I think if you read it, you might develop a new understanding, and appreciation for the sales profession.

TomB Said: Another had brought up the term authenticity, on another topic....I had never used that term, but he had hit the nail on the head, and got me thinking....Thats what we promote & pride ourselves on....Thanks, CIAK

I know this will offend a good number, however, I feel the majority of residential roofing contractors are merely salesmen/charlitons....The lack of state licensing seems to be a predominant factor.

My opinion of an authentic roofing contractor is a business which is owned & operated by, or has employed in an executive position, an experienced/technical knowledgeable & capable roofing professional. The primary roofing work is carried out by trained/qualified/U.S.legal employees, under appropriate supervision. Subcontracting is limitted to other, but related trades, (i.e., major structural carpenty, possible specialty sheet metal or the like, not normally carried out by the contractor, HVAC, etc.).

Your opinion doesn't offend me. If you tell me that the sky is orange and I look up and see that it's blue, should I be offended?

Everyone is entitled to personally define what they feel in an "authentic" roofing contractor. The only opinion that really counts is the judge's.

There is or should be no difference in paying by the job or paying an hourly rate but unfortunatly there is. I saw this when I was sales/salesmanager for a large national (storm chaser) company. I am a second generation roofer. I would get subbed the work for years when I was roofing by GC's and Builders or sell to the owners myself. Everyone who worked for me was an employee. I did jobs all over the US...copper shingles, decra, special or difficult tile jobs. Things had gotten slow and I was working for a builder and didnt have much else going on. Ike hit Houston and I looked for a company to work for. I found a job posting on this site and went to work for them. I had no experience with storm chasing other than when hail storms would hit where i was at. Never did any thing other than how i normally did business..they call and I give estimate ...no supplements or dealing with the insurance. Once i went to work selling for this company I saw some things that made sense and some that didnt. The thing that would frustrate me, and was ONE of the major reasons I stopped working for them, was lack of quality on the jobs. I had to stay at the job almost all the time to make sure it was done right and material wasnt stole or wasted. The thing they did was pay by the sq ...what ever was used. I was by far the most experienced ROOFER that was selling for them. I would adamently give my OPINION on what needed to change with QC but they didnt care. I quit them after 10 months and about 1.8 million in sales. Good thing with this company is even if they leave they do honor their warranties... They have alot of leaks but they pay local roofers to fix em. When I quit I waited about a year to start my own company back up but did things different than I used to but also different from them. I know pay by the JOB..not by whats used. that keeps em from wasting material or stealing it to get more sqs. (my crew i have wouldnt do that anyhow). They also carry their own insurance because if you 1099 your crew and you have insurance and they dont then the job isnt covered. I let them work for other companies and dont dictate what time they start or what time they leave. Thus they are true subs. I mainly use 1-2 crews. I have 5 I have used but try to keep my good one busy every day. (read my other post about my employees.) I am very hard on how things are done... I dont tolerate even the little things like improper nailing and detail work like flashings etc. The crew I mainly use needs no supervision. I do check on them but have never had a leak or any complaints. I feel that this way I am doing it is the best. I also agree with what you are saying ...but i think it is the way they do it and the fact most of them have never done any roofing. I still carry the battle scars and have callouses on the back of my knuckles. Being 44 years old I dont want to be on the roof full time ;). I feel that alot of contractors beat up their subs on pay or allow their inexperience to effect the quality of the job. I know for a fact crews will take advantage of inexperienced salesman or companies. After doing the experiment of hiring employees this last week ..I probably wont do it again. I will have a employee I use to check on jobs or do repairs etc but not whole crews. Its not even the job its the phone calls and drama. Ie no shows, arguing etc. I paid my "subs" $8,100 for 155 sq of 30 year with a few minor decking issues (5/12). Took them from thursday to early sunday. No drama, No stress, No issues!