New, clean thread

Blue said: "...Stephen, I know you have graciously credited me for the hiring tip. Lets set the record straight though...it really wasn't me....it was the book I recommended called "First, Break All the Rules".

For those that think we are selling something...yes, we often talk about the need to continue our education through self study. So, here the big sell job......go to any bookstore and buy "First, Break all the Rules". If you read this book, you will learn about how the best managers manage. To glean this information, the author interviewed 50,000 of the most successful managers to learn how they think.

The interesting thing about Stephen's particular situation was that he did not agree with the basic assumption that the book promulgated....until he tried it. He then did a 180 degree turn and has credited me with his new found knowledge but he's really being too kind. It was never about me....I just got him to read a really good book about managing people.

I'd also suggest "Don't Shoot the Horse" if you are into learning about teaching, coaching or management.

Back to our conversation Stephen...I can only guess that somehow you decided to add some layer of negotiation or choices into your sales presentation. I know that you stated that you were opposed to any form of negotiating and that "my price is my price". I've very interested now to learn what you have did differently. My main interest is because I'm sure that you will leave me a nugget....even though I'm negotiating fool....sometimes.

Now I'm intrigued...."

twill59 Said: And the Management Company deserved that money why? Did they anoint themselves the roofers agent? How many sqs are they tearing off and putting back on??? DId they market and research on the roofers behalf?

(Do you see where I am going with this??)

Good questions. I am going to follow this one, as I am curious to see who is going to do this project. Love when people pocket money that should have been used for a good roofer. Starting to see homeowners do that with their insurance money from this hail storm. Not sure how legal that is, as I thought the homeowner couldn't profit from the insurance company. Not sure who's doing what??

twill59 Said: Was the material about $7200 SB? The 1099 cheats here double their material costs. Sometimes include disposal in that and sometimes they dont.

If the material costs increase continue pretty soon we will all be pricing about the same???

:laugh:

The materials came up to $7508.00. Hope that your right and maybe we will start quoteing the same. The jewler is actually calling the management company as Howard Hanna wrote a check for an amount more than my quote. Looks like all I did was come in the high middle and they took the money and put it in their pocket... She is now making it a part of her lease that she's not responsible for the roof maintenance at all.

I am interested in seeing who got the job though!

Soldierboy

soldierboy Said: Mike,

I like knowing that my house will never be in jeapordy because I cut a corner somewhere.

A hearty AMEN!

quote/]Andy Said: twill,

Thats precisely what Ive been experiencing this season as well. The tipping point seems to be at around the 10k-11k number. Frequently losing to quotes as much as 40% less. Weve got a bunch of really desperate contractors around here this year. I suspect this trend will continue to intensify for the foreseeable future . . .

sb, how close are you hitting to the projected man days?

Just lost a bid today that I thought for sure was ours. Lost it to the largest roofing company (Or so they say) in the area. They were $3,500.00 less than me. Project was bid out at $17,900.00 for a 12 pitch 1 layer tear-off commercial property. It was 58 square with 4 Man Days worth of metal work around windows and pillars. That means they bid it for $14,400. I would say they are really desperate and need to go broke faster than I do. :-) At the price that I quoted it for I had no room for error and neither did my crew. The price that it went for, that company couldn't possibly be doing it and paying taxes and workers compensation. Very painful to loose that one as it was a referral from the Jeweler that is moving into it and I have done work for her in the past.. But, she wasn't the one paying the bill as that is the management company! Argh

Mike,

Most legit company's are running our averages and don't know it. The problem with our industry is just that, most don't know it. Great roofers turning into business owners with no clue on what it actually takes to run a business. Now, not that I don't still take my lumps nor do I want to ever discurage people from ownership, I would like to see everyone on the same page when it comes to payroll taxes, workers compensation etc. I just went thru a workers comp audit just the other day. I didn't sweat it at all! We have a clean slate and no flags for future audits. Seems to me they only audit the legit companies anyway. Right now we have a very large company claiming to have coverage on all of his men. That's impossible when he uses subs and I know a few that have told me they pay their guys cash so they don't pay tax burdens much less the workers comp burden. LOL I like knowing that my house will never be in jeapordy because I cut a corner somewhere.

I'll bet that $200/day is pretty close to reality for most of us, the problem is, most of us don't know it. LOL

I'm a little over 240, but that includes payroll taxes, which most have already figured into their labor costs. We look at our total overhead every year, divide that by total payroll dollars, and come up with a multiplier for each labor dollar, instead of a "per day" figure. In the end, it's all the same.

SB,

So the short answer is that your averages are hitting pretty close. That's what experience does for most of us.

Waaaay cool! :)

Andy,

First: Putting myself in the shoes of everyone working the site, visualising myself working on the job in that catagory.

Second: I have a law of averages spreadsheet that I have been tweeking for years that I go to.

Third: I have a subcontractor sheet that I (Found :P) from 5 competitors that I may look at then divide by my man day. $200 per man per Day.

Fourth: I may then look at the average square price that seems to be our average in this neck of the woods. Course, not with the lowball compitition but the ones that actually have some real overhead, pay taxes ect.

Sometimes, I may actually take pictures and my estimate to my head foreman and get his input. Usually we both come up with the same thing. I never tell him before hand how many man days I think because I want a virgin opinion, not what he thinks the boss wants to hear..

Now, I am not perfect and a few times have gotten it wrong. Goes both ways. Not enough Labor hours, or way to much. In the end it usually averages out. However, I have foreman sheets that I look at every morning, check the labor hours used on the job and how many are left. I am currently training the foreman to run this portion. Makes them understand it and realize that jobs only have so much money in them. Since we don't want to be a company that uses subs and have moved towards only using employees we watch our man days very closely. Our guys have also begun to take ownership of this. They know that to keep the health insurance, our Simple IRA plan that the company contributes to, nice equipment, trucks etc. they need to bring the jobs in on time. Hope this helps.

twill,

That's precisely what I've been experiencing this season as well. The tipping point seems to be at around the 10k-11k number. Frequently losing to quotes as much as 40% less. We've got a bunch of really desperate "contractors" around here this year. I suspect this trend will continue to intensify for the foreseeable future . . .

sb, how close are you hitting to the projected man days?

Andy Said:

Ive learned not to key our quotes to the going per square rate, but to analyze the job and calculate the number of man hours (Porter encourages calculating for man days) the job will need. I can then use those numbers to come up with a proposed $ for the project cost. I still back the total squares into the final number just for comparison, but its not something I live or die by.

I also miss the days when I lurked and just paid attention to all the great advise givin on this website. I welcome it back!

Soldierboy

Yeah, Twill, it's a pretty basic concept. In a past part of my life I met a few people in the landscaping industry through our snowplowing activity. There are a few who have figured out that the key is to bill for every equipment and man hour expended in the operation of the business. The most successful operators know precisely what each piece of equipment (truck, mower, edger, trimmer) costs to operate, and what each employee hour costs. And most importantly, they CHARGE for their services without fear. If the projected job numbers don't hit their ROI, they don't expend the resources to break even or go in the hole.

I've learned not to key our quotes to the "going per square rate", but to analyze the job and calculate the number of man hours (Porter encourages calculating for man days) the job will need. I can then use those numbers to come up with a proposed $ for the project cost. I still back the total squares into the final number just for comparison, but it's not something I live or die by.

I will say that the education received from the forum participants such as Lefty, egg, twill, tom hay , Mike H., Darryl, the Hon. Wally Corpse, Mr. Kaller, et.al, has been priceless. Iron sharpens iron . A "best of" compilation from these discussions would make a great business resource.

With all the finger crossing, it's a wonder any of us can type . . . .

I'm thinking that the PROOF program is by Monroe Porter. I've been to a couple of manufacturer sponsored seminars which he conducted. Very good information. The man lives in our contractor heads . . . . Among other things, he also is a columnist for Roofing Contractor magazine.

This thread brings back memories of this forum when it was at it's best. I've missed the professional discourse. Way to go, men.

TWILL, If I recall correctly-the guy with the PROOF system-was originally a painting contractor-or was it plumbing contractor?- Other than that, I couldn't say-as i have never attended one of the seminars etc. Best wishes, stephen

Never heard of a Proof system, or proof management, but in 1994 my accountant convinced me that we were losing money on every big labor job we did and got me to switch.

Our P&L has been steady as a rock ever since.

6) From Egg: Everything shiny is a place to hide.