extream frost in the attic with new roof

Hello all, I'm new to this site and posting I hope I do it correct. 4 years ago had a neighbor contact me and they needed a new roof. We installed a 3D roof shingle from Tamco and changed the box vents to a OC ridge vent.the home is a two story approximately 1700 Square Feet 2 years in the call came that the roof was leaking, went to investigate and found frost in the attic. noticed that the soffit vents were all closed with insulation. The bath vents were in the attic. Insulation is rolled bats 10 in thick. This home has two gable end vents on the ends and a 4/12 pitch on the back and 6 /12 on the front with 1/2 the front is covered in vaulted ceilings that do not have vent chutes. We went into the attic the 2nd year and installed the stryo chutes in the openings that were open over 3/4 of the back and 1/2 the front. Installed the bath vent out the gable ends. The home does not have heat in the attic, it has a vent pipe for the furnace and plumbing in the attic space. This year cold and snow came and frost again. Here in central Indiana, any help would be greatly appreciated.

IF you install 8 vents in the roof, and you still have the ridge vent, and the ridge-vent does have a slot cut in it, ALL you will be doing is venting from the roof louvers to the ridge vent. That is a short circuit too. Tell the guy there is only one way to do it, and that is correct way. Have him get on here and read what we wrote for you. I don't know sometimes why I tell people what is going on if they don't want to listen. I realize it is not you but him, but it ticks me off! Carry on! Old School

Thank you OS for all the information, the owner would like for me to install the old box vents back in the rear of the roof deck it had 8 of them in the back. so I will be working on this this summer and let you know what we end up doing. Again that you all for your feed back.

Thank you OS for all the information, the owner would like for me to install the old box vents back in the rear of the roof deck it had 8 of them in the back. so I will be working on this this summer and let you know what we end up doing. Again that you all for your feed back.

Thank you OS for all the information, the owner would like for me to install the old box vents back in the rear of the roof deck it had 8 of them in the back. so I will be working on this this summer and let you know what we end up doing. Again that you all for your feed back.

twill59 Said: Well you might think. But like I say about modern carpenters, their job is to cut lumber and nail it together. Assemble a building and move on.

How that building ultimately breathers/ operates, well theres a little more to it than some center vent and just any ridge vent

One of my objectives is to satisfy warranty requirements. I let the owner/ buyer know that if there is not minimum ventilation. ( Whether it is truth or fallacy as to premature shingle failure, it is indeed an out for the shingle manufacturers.) (Another topic)

Also Mold is another maybe can be harmful kind of thing. Ive seen lots and lots and lots of mold with no ill people living in the house.

The other objectives to consider are condensation, (stains), damaged sheathing, in efficient insulation, (strained mechanicals/ higher heating & cooling costs). Interior comfort is a biggie for many also.

All of these items have gotten me lots of positive feedback from customers who received much more than shingles off/ shingles on.

I have to move away from price shoppers to have this conversation. Building inspectors, builders and tradesmen are useless too.

I see lots of ventilation problems. I did a re-roof last year that had been repaired multiple times. The black mammy was everywhere...lol. The people living in the home told me, they had the roof "fixed" multiple times but it always started leaking again down the road.

Now... the shingles were n bad shape no doubt. However, what I found was, a bathroom exhausting into the attic. The sheeting was toast right above, & you could see where condensation had been collecting for years, & running down a truss.

I've actually run into this a number of times over the years but, this one was probably the worst I've seen.

Also, most of the re-roofs I do, don't have adequate ventilation for the attic. Most simply have gable vents, if that. Right, wrong, or somewhere in between.... every re-roof I do gets added attic ventilation. Usually ridge vent. Makes the most sense to me, & seems to be the best bang for the buck. I don't even usually break it down price wise. It's just part of the installation, & included in the total price.

twill59 Said:

TomB Said: We take out over-the-counter roof permits all the time and venting is never required or even mentiond, let alone specified, by the building departments.

There you go

"Not sure what you mean TomB.

Are you saying....an HVAC contractor has to spell out his ventilation plan when he gets a permit to....for example, replace a furnace? Change a filter?

At what point does the HVAC person deal with the attic ventilation?"

What I meant was - That was a good example of how, when a roofer applies for a re-roof permit, HVAC, (i.e., attic ventilation), is not generally a consideration. However, I will point out that in a particular municipality we work in, the bldg. dept requires all smoke alarms and C02 detectors are brought up to current codes when re-roofing or remodeling. Possibly they should include attic ventilation as well.....

Thanks again to egg. Apologies for my typical brevity, (& laziness, so-to-speak), as I may rely a bit on the hopes egg is there to extrapolate & eloquently expand.

Going out on a bit of a limb here as I wouldn't want to assume I know exactly what TomB is thinking, but here goes:

Time was that the roofers' domain was to make sure things didn't leak from weather factors, although trapped moisture was always part of that domain. Not meaning any offense to my own trade, which I love and respect, we were generally hard-working guys who put four nails in a shingle, laid out for shakes and tile and fastened everything properly, and mopped our hot asphalt with the right coverage and set our rolls on the right lines. We generally installed metal flashings provided by others, most often sheet metal contractors, who usually had bigger shops with better-trained personnel, much more expensive equipment, and worked less hard for more money. Actually, most sheetmetal men I met were such an annoyance that they drove me into taking control of roof metal myself, something I have never regretted for one single instance.

But the SMACNA specs traditionally put roofing specs to shame in just about every way imagineable and there was also a notable bias towards mathematics, engineering, and environmental aspects of the buildings, especially in commercial work and when buildings became so air-tight that venting became a huge issue, sheetmetal contractors (HVAC) were already there and were the first link to architects and energy consultants when it came to putting hard numbers to building envelopes. For those of us who tinker with this stuff as ancillary aspects of our traditional roofing work, what do we do? Go around and add up intake capacity, calculate based on the 1/150 or 1/300 rule provided by others in a more ivory tower strata of construction, and try to keep up with the times.

Building departments rely heavily on calcs shown on prints when they are issuing permits for new work and they don't do these calcs themselves, they insist that they be done by a recognized entity specializing in energy calcs. They don't meddle with existing buildings, especially residential, any more than they tell you that you are going to have to change out all your windows or upgrade your insulation. In fact, here they say if you are going to tamper with the insulation you have to bring it up to current code standards, but if you leave it as-is you are exempt.

What Tom is saying, I think, is that if we leave things as-is we are definitely in the clear, but if we presume to upgrade and use our own specs to achieve the upgrade we become liable for science. Most if not all of us have no certification from any exalted halls of learning to qualify us to take this risk. That's all. Yeah, we have our feet on the ground and by paying attention to the knowledge that's out there, listening to the manufacturer requirements and extrapolating from them, reading the building codes and extrapolating from them, observing the practical consequences of various materials and treatments and avoiding obvious mistakes, we are probably on solid ground, at least enough to avoid litigation. But if someone wants to litigate, and some do, are even looking for the chance, then let me tell you...common sense goes out-the-window and if you generated a spec which for some reason fails to perform, you are potentially exposed to huge consequential damages. jmho. fwiw.

"We take out over-the-counter roof permits all the time and venting is never required or even mentiond, let alone specified, by the building departments."

There you go

What always amazes me is people - builders venting bath - kitchen - dryer vents out the soffit or the gable end. Don't they realize that any prevailing wind - breeze will cause air pressure against the wall of the house and push that exhaust air, usually hot and moist, right up into the attic cavity. All this venting needs to be through the roof to avoid condensation in the attic.

egg Said: We take out over-the-counter roof permits all the time and venting is never required or even mentiond, let alone specified, by the building departments.

I have had only one city ever inspect an attic for ventilation- and that was because the gas furnace was in the attic. The only thing the inspector required was that there be at least 1 box vent nearby to draw O2. They clearly knew nothing about air movement.

A remodeling contractor once told me that you can't put a soffit vent near a window because of fire. It made sense and on a lot of the older homes with soffits, they would skip the vent on panels over windows if the house had any vents at all. I could not find any rule to back that up, so I have gone ahead and vented the soffits as much as I can. If there is a risk of fire, the need for ventilation out-ways any need to smother the spread of fire in most cases.

egg: gutter guards by code eh? Do you mind telling me which brand/style you prefer?

Natty, here the connection you are referring to is in the specifications for structures in designated "wildland districts" and is pretty extreme. For instance, it is mandatory that all gutters have screens to prevent dry combustible material from collecting in them. (This doesn't work so well for pine needles, but it's just a matter of time before they micro-manage what type of screen can be used.) Soffit vents, frieze block vents, etc, have to be fire-rated. This usually means they contain a filter of stainless steel webbing. As it was explained to me, in the enhanced draft conditions of a wildfire, flame and sparks will use the vent chutes to gain access to the structure, running up from the base of the wall and getting sucked up into the passive vent channels. These districts typically are exposed to forest fires, have poor or restricted access for fire-fighters, and aren't located within the jurisdiction of a municipal fire department. Elsewhere the venting is controlled by Title 24 energy regulations on new work, warrantee issues by the manufacturers, and homeowners' and roofers' preferences on reroofs. We take out over-the-counter roof permits all the time and venting is never required or even mentiond, let alone specified, by the building departments.

twill59 Said: I thought the Ventilation in HVAC was for commercial applications, installation/ service. The type of systems where air is pushed / pulled/ exchanged with the assistance of mechanical power/ apparatuses.

NOT exactly the systems we have in cold attics.

I just cant buy the argument that a Mechanical Contractor is going to fix the problems that, for example, a careless siding guy or insulator caused.

The process that drops this in the roofers lap, is that is usually takes a boatload of fools (drywaller, homeowner, insulator, roofer, carpenter, builder, electrician, sider, HVAC, architect, plumber) to cause the problem and one good (real) roofer to fix it

Ventilation has to do with life & property safety, however it's manifested; Passive or forced. It is, (should be), a purposeful/definitive design process within a bldg. structure.

Your correct, in that a lot of instances, it is simply overlooked & is a resultant condition rather than a thought-out aspect, thereby leaving remedies to the guess-by-golly home builder/modeler or roofer.....and life goes on.....

My comments where simply to point out that it simply depends on what a contractor wants to take-on as responsibilities.

People pronounce/proclaim things enough and it becomes the norm/reality of the moment, so--to-speak.

natty Said:

TomB Said: Its a regional thing - I guess.

Is it true that in the dryer regions of the west, soffit venting is prohibited because of the fear of fire?

While "soffits" are not as common in the west, where most eaves are open, (as compared to east of the CD), intake/lower ventilation is crucial; It's usually accomplished by providing vents between rafter/truss tails above exterior walls.

I'm not aware of any code changes in relation to lower attic venting, (then, of course, I'm no HVAC expert). No tell'n though - Some local municipalities could very well have instilled any number of concocted ideas within their own bldg. depts.