Employees or subcontractors.

tico Said:

tico Said: quick question,are your subs americans?if not,do they have the real mccoy documentation to be working,or here for that matter?

I asked it in english,now Ill ask it in spanish.I just want to know if anyone here subs to illegals or undocumented workers. ¿pregunta rápida, son sus submarinos americanos? ¿si no, tienen la documentación mccoy verdadera a trabajar, o aquí para esa materia? id really like to know.

Actually, your first question seemed to be aimed at one specific person. I was waiting for that person to respond.

Answer to your second question is a question: How would one know if my subs are legal or not?

I was reminded last weekend why I quit subbing. There was a full page pictural article in the paper about a high-end builder that was retiring and reviewed his career. Back in the late '70's, this guy was my first repeat customer. I had done a half-dozen houses for him and he was adding another one every 2 months.

But I also had started to get some large commercial jobs and was feeling kind of stretched. My tile supplier told me about a guy named Kyle that had just come down from Canada that wanted to sub. I gave him two out-of-town jobs of mine and he did them for me. I thought "this is great, I didn't even have to see the jobs and I was getting money for them." Kyle was a hard worker, not particularly fast, but would stay on a job until dark. He was also brash, opinionated and totally lacking any tact.

I decided to give Kyle the next job this builder had, which was a house for his parents. As far as I knew (what Kyle told me) all went well, I was promptly paid. But the builder never called me again.

A couple of years later at a home show, I saw the builder again and asked him why he had switched roofers. He told me, he couldn't stand Kyle. The guy had insulted his framing, insulted the design (the builder did it himself) and even insulted the land (beautiful property that had been in his family for years.) The builder was very loyal to his subs and wouldn't consider using me again. Subbing proved to be just a short-term solution, not one that builds long-term customers.

tico Said: quick question,are your subs americans?if not,do they have the real mccoy documentation to be working,or here for that matter?

JimAKABleu....Sounds like you ought to be working for your "subs" as a salesman....

As a point of reference.... As a subcontractor, I charge $68.00/man hour for labor.

There is a law here in Colorado; "The Colorado Workers Compensation Act", which clearly identifies an independent contractor, however, some must think it's not clear....I only wish the state would enforce the law....It's intent is very clear; The independent contractor must be engaged in a different/separate business/trade than the prime contractor....

IOW"s; A roofing contractor may not subcontract roofing...He may sub-out sheet metal or painting, maybe deck replacement,(carpentry), etc... But not simply/obviously roofing....

quick question,are your subs americans?if not,do they have the real mccoy documentation to be working,or here for that matter?

W2ell, paying a "sub" hourly is just paying an employee. A subcontractor will have a contract and the same labor burdens as the prime contractor, meaning that the overhead and labor charges will be no less.

The ONLY reason to use subs is to avoid paying the labor burdens. There is no other reason.

TomB Said: Good advice Builderr & Old School....

The ONLY reason/rationale behind playing the sub-game is for the unscupulous contractor to avoid paying appropriate labor burdens. Plain & simple. ;)

I don't agree.

I hired my first employee back in the early 80's. I've probably spent 1000 hours interviewing employees and probably 10,000 hour babysitting them.

Now, I only use subcontractors. I'd much rather pay a guy $35 per hour as a sub than hire a guy at $5, 10, 15, 20 or any amount. I'm done with "employees". You can have them. I want independent minded guys, that have all their tools and I will only hire them on a fixed fee basis.

I'm old and tired and this is the easiest way I've ever made my money. Why should I be forced to baby sit "men". I want strong will, self motivated entreprenurs and those kind of guys don't work hourly for anyone.

Good advice Builderr & Old School....

The ONLY reason/rationale behind playing the sub-game is for the unscupulous contractor to avoid paying appropriate labor burdens. Plain & simple. ;)

This 1099 reminded me of a situation that had happened to me...In my 5th year in roofing I was hired to be a shop supervisor in training....Long story, I was just sent out to roof.

anyways, the owner was a religous person (as he read the bible every morning when I showed up)and said he was behind on his quarterly payments and that he would have to start paying cash to everyone for a couple of weeks (which turned out to be a couple of months until the end of the year.

I recieved a W-2 AND A 1099. Learned my lesson in many ways !!!

Part of working for yourself is getting the necesary paperwork and paying for the necessary insurance and licenses and such. It is much cheaper to do it without it, no overhead, but when the chickens come home to roost, it is not too pleasant.

Well, Ive been at it for some 25 years or so. Started out working on crews that "subbed" from other contractors. They had no insurance. Did that for a few years and then began to "sub" from other contractors myself and hired "employees" to help me out. I had no insurance at the time as there was not enough money involved to be able to pay for it. I started my own business after several years of that and had my own "employees" still with no insurance. A year or so after that i began to sub out my work not requiring insurance as i didn't have any either. Then one day several years ago something strange happened. I woke up one morning and realized i now had a nice business going and if something were to happen i would lose it all. So i did something weird. I went and got myself some insurance. After doing this i learned that if my "subs" did not have proof of insurance then at the end of the year i would have to pay the percentage on their pay also. So from that point forward all subs must have insurance or i will pay less to a crew without insurance and i will cover them myself. Cost the same either way. So to make a long story short "er" over the years i have gone from employees to subs with the main reason being if i wanted to babysit a bunch of grown men all day every day i would get a job at the psycho ward. lol

It sounds like your liabilities will need a liability so that they can be held liable instead of making you liable! :dry:

Water runs down hill and so do insurance claims. Just wait till you have someone that works for a "sub" or one of the "subs" get hurt and have to go to the hospital. If they don't have insurance and they probably aren't covered, they will be treated and then you will get sued. The closest one that has insurance will pay and they will pay dearly. The "deep Popckets" syndrome

I seem to remember something about some states do not allow the sub from a sub argument if the sub is doing the same trade as the prime contractor. GC's can sub roofing etc, but roofers, plumbers electricians etc....the first contract is the fall guy for claims etc.

I might be off on the specifics but Im sure I can find something in the archives. wherever they went.