Employees or subcontractors.

I wouldn't work for another in the roofing biz....If it got to where I couldn't pay enough, how in the world could someone else?

No it's not the "brown' people...Has absolutely nothing to do w/skin color...it is the ILLEGAL workforce, that has stagnated the private sector construction wages since the late eighties....That is an undeniable fact.

back in the mid 90's in Wilm. NC I had A friend who worked in A sign and silk screening shop.he got the brilliant idea to replicate th INS logo. then his buddy had a ford taurus,it was white. they stuck the magnetic signs to the sides of the taurus,put on ball caps they bought at the flea market that said FBI.they dressed the part. then they went to A big apt. project that had A texas framing crew.they cut the local,that were bidding against them by 2.00 A sq.ft. when the magot wagon pulled in for lunch they'd wait A bit for all the workers to settle into lunch.they'd then pull in and sling the car sideways,jump out and holler "donde esta la jeffe" loudly with authority. well folks,you'd think the light was turned on and the roaches were headed for cover. all that was left was the boss with his 10 gallon hat in his hand wondering what to do.and he knew what not to do.i must say it was rather funny. after that every once in awhile when it seemed warranted we'd stop in front of A job site and hollr Migra,la migra. you wanna know for A fact your crew is legal tell them that immigration is going to come to your job site and check their papers for "chuecas".you do know what chuecas are don't you?they are the fake papers that they give anyone but immigration,because anyone else doesn't know how to authenticate them.immigration law is very similar to any local constabulary.your better to give no information than to give false information. don't worry,i believe every man you got is legal causee you said so. :blink:

TomB Said: $15/hr is our minn. starting pay....If I had to pay any less to keep the doors open, Id quit the biz and go find a job working for another....

This sub-game is much like the illegal immigration problem we have....The Feds could put a stop to it, if they so inclined....

Around here, if you quit your biz and went looking for job...you'd get paid....about $12 lol! And, you better bring a truck and tools!

Quite frankly, I think $15 is much too low.

I don't set the market labor rates around here. I used to pay my guys $25 per hour. Paid vacations. Full health benefits. Profit Sharing. Unlimited overtime at time and a half. And I used to make a decent profit on every job...as long as I bid them right.

So, what does that have to do with this market? Nothing. I compete in the market I compete in. I can't take in 10 and payout 15.

Incidently, I could hire an entire crew at $15, pay the labor burden and I still be making more money that if I subbed it out. My point wasn't about how low can we go, or how much I pay. The point is that it's not brown people driving the labor prices down. It's unemployed people. The manufacturing jobs have disappeared and all those folks are on the streets..looking and willing to do whatever it takes. I'm in the same boat and I intend to paddle to shore.

$15/hr is our minn. starting pay....If I had to pay any less to keep the doors open, I'd quit the biz and go find a job working for another....

This sub-game is much like the illegal immigration problem we have....The Feds could put a stop to it, if they so inclined....

Does anyone think it's impossible to hire 8 legal Americans....white if you prefer....to work for $12 per hour?

If I would run a craigslist ad and advertise for roofing laborers and offer to pay $12 per hour, I'd have to pull the ad after one day because my email box would be run over. In the mix, I would get multiple offers from highly skilled people: carpenters, engineers, plumbers, truck drivers, etc.

Yall can go on believing that the only thing affecting your business is brown people but you are only fooling yourself.

So, if I put that crew together and pay out $12 per hour and then add the overhead and burden, do you think I could do roofs for what the insurance company pays?

I've already run the numbers and I know I would make more than I am doing now. I just choose to use competent subcontractors. I like the guys that do my roofs. We are friends.

Yes they speak English. Yes I have proper paperwork to pay them. No, I did not demand to see their birth certificates. If Obama doesn't have to show his, no one does.

minnesotaroofin Said: Jim, I might as well get in and on ya - Since It is illegal to be in our country without proper citizenship or approval and this is a problem you are contributing to by giving the illegals money / work so they can stay. Seems to me your morals / ethics are a bit scewed.

Not to say you have illegals even but you do have the right to check - If you really cared about the issue of illegals breaking the law.

Interesting comment.

First, you tell me that I am giving illegals money and my morals and ethics are a bit screwed. Then you tell me that you aren't saying that I have illegals.

jim, interesting update/.

Before the hailstorm- I was in the beginning stages of stepping sideways out of shingle roofing and into more carpentry and exterior restoration work.

hailstorm largely de-railed those efforts for a couple years

As you recall- almost all of my work came from within my own neighborhood-and after the hailstorm this neighborhood is largely "roofed out"

Lets be clear- my core market no longer really exists as a viable source of leads for the forseeable future

i could curl up and die- or spend my time on the internet whining about insurance companies,storm chasers,illegal immigrants or whatever

but-as always my lot in life is primarily determined by ME-it's always within my power to improve my lot in life-if "I" really want to do so.

you recall- historically i mostly worked my own neighborhood-and simply let the world beat a path to my door and a 52% closing rate

I have been experimenting with a low tech and much more effective marketing method since last september or so. I am not particularly proud of it since for 20 years i didn't really have to look for work- but this method has been yeilding very nearly a 100% closing ratio.

I target specific neighborhoods with houses built in the 1920's and earlier. well maintained homes with original exteriors if possible-2 income homes-volvo neighborhoods- not Lexus neighborhoods, not toyota neighborhoods-about 40-60ft. wide lots

I have 2 basic door hangers printed up-one targets exterior carpentry restoration and one targets roofing

I go into the target neighborhoods with a helper. side of the street with the even number gets the the roofing hanger- the odd numbered adresses get the carpentry hanger. we can hang about 550 hangers in 3 hours--- mornings 9-12 primarily. It's boring- i can't take more than 3 hours of it- but i like it- cool neighborhoods, interesting older homes and for 3 hours it is relatively pleasant.

we get about a 1% respnse rate-and virtually EVERYONE who responds- buys. I thought at first we would get a lot of tire kickers-but we don't. If they respond- they have a specific issue to be solved- and they buy.

the roof I should be working on right now if rain wasn't imminent?-came from a door hanger last oct.

the roof we will be doing in 2 weeks?-came from a door hanger we hung5-3-10.

sometimes the sale is a small repair of just a few hours duration-sometimes it's a roof that will take 4-5 days. regaurdless- it's money and projects coming from a customer base that i wouldn't have if i didn't take the time to hang those door hangers.

we put up a web site promoting slate and tile roof work which we love- but which has always been more of a sideline for us-and we actually this week are having hangers printed specifically for slate and tile roofs- as we walk a neighborhood with our regular hangers- if we encounter a slate or tile roof- they will get the slate & tile specific hanger

we are also compiling a data base of slate and tile roof addresses-eventually we will direct mail 4 times a year or more specific post cards to those addresses.

BTW- I am having a lot of fun. Back in the good old days- I was pretty passive- just waiting for the phone to ring

NOW- I can actually MAKE the phone ring almost on command. I can work whenever I want and just about as much as I want. Even counting the time spent hanging door hangers- i am actually making MORE money per hour now- than before the hail storm with more controll over the whole process. It's not perfect-and again , I am not particualrly proud of it because for 20 plus years I was mostly "by referall only "- but objectively this is better-and personally I am demonstrably more happy.

rain day today- but I gotta pcall the printer to re-order-and then I am gonna install an outdoor woodworking project at my house i have been working on in my spare time.

Best wishes all, Stephen

jimAKAblue Said:

tico Said:

jimAKAblue Said:

tico Said:

tico Said: quick question,are your subs americans?if not,do they have the real mccoy documentation to be working,or here for that matter?

I asked it in english,now Ill ask it in spanish.I just want to know if anyone here subs to illegals or undocumented workers. ¿pregunta rápida, son sus submarinos americanos? ¿si no, tienen la documentación mccoy verdadera a trabajar, o aquí para esa materia? id really like to know.

Actually, your first question seemed to be aimed at one specific person. I was waiting for that person to respond.

Answer to your second question is a question: How would one know if my subs are legal or not?

you ask for documentation.you have that right.and you verify it.make copies.when they realize this,and you tell them your forwarding it to INS so your covered,theyll go to the next co.and see if that contractor is willing to sell the american flag for A cheap crew and big returns. and if you think,with your gut their illegal they probably are. theirs reasons an american roofing co. cant compete with stormers for jobs.and guess who knows this also?the ins. co.s. they have the labor beaten down to A point that we cant live to A wholesome standard on their payscale.whats the ins.co.s responsibility?to make the property whole,and yet we hire illegals,how will we make america meet thats same standard of being whole,when illegals are taking that liberty,as its handed to them by an american shyster.it truly equates to racketeering.if you dont think so,read the federal statudes for racketeering. we are used to 15-20 an hour per man for in house,and to sub,the leader of the sub crew may pay day wage.so his shingler with exp.should make what?someone please tell me what youd work for,top layer,flashin,tearin off,delegatin and doin the bosses bidding when hes out managing another job.and what do you expect A good helper and laborer deserves? once you break it down,tool % boss % dump fees etc you cant pay A fair scale when your bound to the market or the line the ins.co. sets. I worked for a major co. and quickly became disillusioned with it,and it was after joining this site that it became apparent that its 1. out of control, 2. that its wrong for so many reasons, 3. theirs nothing you can do,its the ins.co.s and scumbags that work illegals that cut the throat of other americans. and I WILL NOT APOLOGIZE TO ANYONE THAT FITS THE BILL.

Perhaps you are looking too hard to be a victim and missing out on a golden opportunity? Every roofer has the ability to set their own prices. They are not bound by the insurance companies rates.

What does this mean? It means that every roofer can choose a different method of marketing their services. They dont have to follow the herd. They can differentiate themselves and sell on quality....and they will be busy too.

Check in with Stephen, who posts in here occasionally. His neighborhood got hit. He managed to work two years straight, AT HIS PRICES, which were significantly higher than what they insurance company pays. According to him, he never bothered to meet with adjusters and basically told his customers up front(Im paraphrasing) the amount you settle with with the insurance company is your business. I dont care what they pay you, I only care that you pay me my price.

The difference between Stephen and many roofing contractors is that he refused to be a victim. He had high standards and went out and sold himself.

This is America. The only one holding you or I back is ourselves. Dont be victimized by theirs nothing you can do,its the ins.co.s and scumbags that work illegals that cut the throat of other americans. You are asserting that theres nothing you can do about it...so do something else! Sell on quality...personal committment, personal attention to detail. Your closing ratio might not be as high as the storm chasers but you will be too busy to care....AT YOUR PRICE!

tico Said:

jimAKAblue Said:

tico Said:

tico Said: quick question,are your subs americans?if not,do they have the real mccoy documentation to be working,or here for that matter?

I asked it in english,now Ill ask it in spanish.I just want to know if anyone here subs to illegals or undocumented workers. ¿pregunta rápida, son sus submarinos americanos? ¿si no, tienen la documentación mccoy verdadera a trabajar, o aquí para esa materia? id really like to know.

Actually, your first question seemed to be aimed at one specific person. I was waiting for that person to respond.

Answer to your second question is a question: How would one know if my subs are legal or not?

you ask for documentation.you have that right.and you verify it.make copies.when they realize this,and you tell them your forwarding it to INS so your covered,theyll go to the next co.and see if that contractor is willing to sell the american flag for A cheap crew and big returns. and if you think,with your gut their illegal they probably are. theirs reasons an american roofing co. cant compete with stormers for jobs.and guess who knows this also?the ins. co.s. they have the labor beaten down to A point that we cant live to A wholesome standard on their payscale.whats the ins.co.s responsibility?to make the property whole,and yet we hire illegals,how will we make america meet thats same standard of being whole,when illegals are taking that liberty,as its handed to them by an american shyster.it truly equates to racketeering.if you dont think so,read the federal statudes for racketeering. we are used to 15-20 an hour per man for in house,and to sub,the leader of the sub crew may pay day wage.so his shingler with exp.should make what?someone please tell me what youd work for,top layer,flashin,tearin off,delegatin and doin the bosses bidding when hes out managing another job.and what do you expect A good helper and laborer deserves? once you break it down,tool % boss % dump fees etc you cant pay A fair scale when your bound to the market or the line the ins.co. sets. I worked for a major co. and quickly became disillusioned with it,and it was after joining this site that it became apparent that its 1. out of control, 2. that its wrong for so many reasons, 3. theirs nothing you can do,its the ins.co.s and scumbags that work illegals that cut the throat of other americans. and I WILL NOT APOLOGIZE TO ANYONE THAT FITS THE BILL.

Perhaps you are looking too hard to be a victim and missing out on a golden opportunity? Every roofer has the ability to set their own prices. They are not bound by the insurance companies rates.

What does this mean? It means that every roofer can choose a different method of marketing their services. They don't have to follow the herd. They can differentiate themselves and sell on quality....and they will be busy too.

Check in with Stephen, who posts in here occasionally. His neighborhood got hit. He managed to work two years straight, AT HIS PRICES, which were significantly higher than what they insurance company pays. According to him, he never bothered to meet with adjusters and basically told his customers up front(I'm paraphrasing) the amount you settle with with the insurance company is your business. I don't care what they pay you, I only care that you pay me my price.

The difference between Stephen and many roofing contractors is that he refused to be a victim. He had high standards and went out and sold himself.

This is America. The only one holding you or I back is ourselves. Don't be victimized by "theirs nothing you can do,its the ins.co.s and scumbags that work illegals that cut the throat of other americans." You are asserting that there's nothing you can do about it...so do something else! Sell on quality...personal committment, personal attention to detail. Your closing ratio might not be as high as the storm chasers but you will be too busy to care....AT YOUR PRICE!

twill59 Said: Answer to your second question is a question: How would one know if my subs are legal or not?

That is beyond funny. And I dont mean if they are just SOB. Even European (My MIL is German and has an aceent)

Short story: Natalie a local waitress has a hispanic husband, Emilio. Nice guy, I like him. One day I asked Natalie if she & Emilio had any friends who were here legally needing a job.

After the laughter from her died down she simply said: NO one of them that we know are here legally

So............what was the question? Can I tell if they are legal or not? :laugh: :laugh:

You and I are obviously different. I don't ask people what religion they are. I don't ask them if they are citizens. I'm 57....it's a question that I've never asked anyone. When I had employees, the government required that I had I-9's on file. I did my duty and got them filled out. Now, I don't deal with employees anymore. The government requires that I get a W-9. I do my duty and get W-9's.

I'll leave the sleuthing to you.

Also, if someone asks me about my citizenship, I wouldn't answer. I've never been asked and I've been a subcontractor since 1982 or so.

wywoody Said: If you have to supervise a sub almost to the same degree as an employee, what exactly do you gain other than shifting taxes around?

With the exception of not supplying the materials, a framing sub is the equivalent of the roofing contractor. Now if the framing sub where to sub his work to another framer, then you would be talking about the same thing as a roofing contractor subbing his work out. Every arguement can be framed to look brilliant.

It's far more than "shifting taxes around".

For instance....last month my roofing subcontractor got to the job two hours later than scheduled. He was delayed when his trailer popped off his hitch and rammed through his pick up truck fender. I was empathetic when I told him "...some days it really isn't too fun being the boss eh? I know how you feel, I've been there many times myself."

That day, I truly felt bad for him. It brought back memories of my employee calling me and telling me that he had rolled my boom truck into a ditch.....

The state of Washington has an insurance crisis going on. It stems from the state legislature having too many Mercer Island Bloodsuckers (Seattle lawyers). In an attempt to broaden the number of deep pockets, they have started making liability insurers be in effect another ten-year product warranty provider. The result is greatly reduced choices for insurance with lots of restrictions. One of those restrictions has to do with employees vs subs. I doubt you could get insurance here if you subbed out your work.

Now, I have no doubt the actuarial bean counters that impose this restriction do so because they have hard numbers showing higher liability claims for subbed work vs employee work. On the surface, you would think that the insurance company would like a situation where the contractor has insurance and the sub has insurance, thereby spreading the risk. But it doesn't seem to work that way.

jimAKAblue Said:

tico Said:

tico Said: quick question,are your subs americans?if not,do they have the real mccoy documentation to be working,or here for that matter?

I asked it in english,now Ill ask it in spanish.I just want to know if anyone here subs to illegals or undocumented workers. ¿pregunta rápida, son sus submarinos americanos? ¿si no, tienen la documentación mccoy verdadera a trabajar, o aquí para esa materia? id really like to know.

Actually, your first question seemed to be aimed at one specific person. I was waiting for that person to respond.

Answer to your second question is a question: How would one know if my subs are legal or not?

If you have to supervise a sub almost to the same degree as an employee, what exactly do you gain other than shifting taxes around?

With the exception of not supplying the materials, a framing sub is the equivalent of the roofing contractor. Now if the framing sub where to sub his work to another framer, then you would be talking about the same thing as a roofing contractor subbing his work out. Every arguement can be 'framed' to look brilliant.

wywoody Said: I was reminded last weekend why I quit subbing. There was a full page pictural article in the paper about a high-end builder that was retiring and reviewed his career. Back in the late 70s, this guy was my first repeat customer. I had done a half-dozen houses for him and he was adding another one every 2 months.

But I also had started to get some large commercial jobs and was feeling kind of stretched. My tile supplier told me about a guy named Kyle that had just come down from Canada that wanted to sub. I gave him two out-of-town jobs of mine and he did them for me. I thought this is great, I didnt even have to see the jobs and I was getting money for them. Kyle was a hard worker, not particularly fast, but would stay on a job until dark. He was also brash, opinionated and totally lacking any tact.

I decided to give Kyle the next job this builder had, which was a house for his parents. As far as I knew (what Kyle told me) all went well, I was promptly paid. But the builder never called me again.

A couple of years later at a home show, I saw the builder again and asked him why he had switched roofers. He told me, he couldnt stand Kyle. The guy had insulted his framing, insulted the design (the builder did it himself) and even insulted the land (beautiful property that had been in his family for years.) The builder was very loyal to his subs and wouldnt consider using me again. Subbing proved to be just a short-term solution, not one that builds long-term customers.

Your story offers a very good lesson or two. Your conclusion that "subs are just a short term solution" is probably misguided...but if you frame the argument just right, it will look like a brilliant observation.

Now..lets look at it from another perspective. I was a subcontractor for several decades. I framed custom homes. I poured my heart and soul into every day on the job. Every builder that took the time to know our work loved us....even though some couldn't afford us. I was highly trained, highly skilled and I demanded high quality from all of my associates (employees). We took pride in our work and delivered fine products on time. We treated all visitors well and protected the integrity of the builder's name and reputation.

Short term solution? We often worked for the same builder for several years in a row until the subdivision would build out.

Could that builder have hired me as an "employee"? Absolutely not. I was offered great positions many times and I never seriously considered any of them.

So, my conclusion is this: some of the best workers you'll ever do business with will be subs. They will make money for themselves and they will make money for you.

One possibility about your situation. Maybe you didn't properly supervise your sub to make sure he fit into the culture of your business? Or, maybe you didn't lay down enough parameters when you turned your new sub loose? Or, maybe you hired the wrong sub?