Working the Storm - PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Mike Thomas, Eric Small and Josh Price of GAF. You can read the interview below, listen to the podcast or watch the recording.

Intro: Good morning and welcome to Coffee Conversations. My name is Heidi Ellsworth and we are here today to talk about working the storm. What timing? I have to tell you, with Hurricane Helene coming up through the Gulf, this is a perfect time for us to be talking about how we can be helping and really building our businesses with great practices. So we have brought the experts from GAF in to talk to us about this along with Tar Heel Roofing. So before I get started, let me talk a little bit about housekeeping. And this is being recorded. It will be available within 24 hours, so be sure to share it out to your business, other roofing professionals and of course friends and family. This is great information for anyone. Also, the chat is open. So Megan Ellsworth, our producer is on the chat and please let us know who you are, where you're from. And throughout the entire conversation, please share your thoughts and ask questions. This is a conversation and we want to hear what you have to say.

So, let's get started. First of all, I want to thank GAF for sponsoring this Coffee Conversation. I have to tell you, they're the leaders and we are going to hear such great information today along with resources that are practical that you can actually put into play. So GAF, thank you for this conversation and thank you for being such a great supporter of the Coffee Shops. So, I would like to start out with introducing Mike Thomas with GAF. Mike, welcome to the show.

Mike Thomas: Heidi, thank you. And on behalf of GAF, thanks for hosting us and so happy to be here and share our thoughts, what we're doing in this space. A little about me is I actually came to the roofing side of the business by way of the catastrophe insurance claim side. So I lead our learning and development when it comes to storm restoration and everything that is entailed with that, whether it's the marketing resources, input on some of our business services and solutions. But really excited to spend the time with you today and a cup of coffee to share what we've got going on in the space.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Excellent. Thank you. I'm so happy you're here today. This is great. I also want to introduce Eric Small, a territory manager with GAF. Eric, welcome.

Eric Small: Thanks, Heidi. Thanks for having us Echoing. Everything that Mike said, we're happy to be a partner with you guys. And I appreciate the invitation to speak about what's going on in my neck of the woods. As a territory manager, I cover Central Maryland and the greater Baltimore area, so I work with contractors like Tar Heel Construction, local distributors, architects, engineers, making sure that the material is where we need it, but also providing the resources that GAF has to offer to the contractor and then get that to the end user.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Excellent, excellent. Thank you so much for being here, and I am really excited to introduce and welcome Josh Price with Tar Heel Construction Group. Josh, thank you for being here today and please introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about Tar Heel.

Josh Price: Thank you so much, Heidi. Yeah, my name is Josh from Tar Heel Construction Group here in Hartford County, Baltimore Maryland and we're not your typical storm chasing company. We do about 70% retail and the company was built on a retail foundation. And we have bolted on insurance and continue to work with GAF and leaders like yourself to improve it and be the best that we can be in the insurance industry.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That's great. This is such a well-balanced, this is going to be such a great conversation. So let's start out. I want to remind everyone, please let us know. Hi, Jennifer. It's great to have you here this morning. Please share with us in the chat who you are, where you're from, your company, residential, commercial and we're going to start off with that big picture. What do you see happening with insurance and roofing? Everybody wants to know this. Mike, what is happening out there?

Mike Thomas: So the industry is changing and right on the, I guess right before Helene here hits landfall. I was getting ready to say that the tide's kind of turned. I saw some stats the other day that the insurance companies are finally profitable, so maybe you'd start to see premiums and stuff relax. But you're seeing an evolution of just more and more homeowner participation. And some sources say that up to 40% of re-roofing in the US is as a result of the insurance claim process or restoration. That's a lot of our customers and a lot of GAF's customers, contractors are having to evolve in this space. The homeowner is now responsible for more than just the deductible. They may not have full coverage, they may not have code coverage. And so you're seeing that the storm contractors, that that's their bread and butter are having to flex those retail skills, some of the skills Josh and Tar Heel have, but then as a result of just the overarching impact of weather and frequency, like Helene, you can't ignore the restoration work because it's hitting you right in the face literally.

You had huge Oklahoma hailstorms yesterday, day before yesterday, excuse me and then now the hurricane. The weather has no boundaries. And so to be a full-faceted business, you got to see how those two models are coming together. Storm and retail are going to meet in the middle, and it's going to be a combination of the right services and products to be able to offer. And it's caused us there, as you threw Scope Connect up. It's caused us to think of how we can support our contractor in this space. And so ScopeConnect is something born out of the idea of a company that is primarily retail. Not to get too deep into the insurance nerd stuff, I'll try and drop my background in the past, but the adjusters, the insurance companies speak a very specific language when it comes to estimating.

And this was our way to help contractors in this space either get more efficient or ScopeConnect allowed a contractor that doesn't speak that language, kind of have a Rosetta Stone. What's all this weird phrasing adjusters use that aren't really what you call the materials, but it's what they're used to. And this is what was rolled out at IRE earlier this year to support our contractors in that space. And we've had really good feedback from it.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And we just are seeing this combination that we didn't used to see as much, this combination of retail and insurance. And Josh, you were just talking about that, where you have that combination. Can you give us a little bit of history of how that's worked and how you've brought insurance into your business?

Josh Price: Yeah, so before I joined Tar Heel they were 98% retail and established in the local market, established as the best in the area really and continue to have that reputation. And before I joined here, when I was discussing things with Joe from Tar Heel, obviously he saw the writing on the wall with all the storms and the storm chasing companies and the insurance work. And not just the opportunity to grow the business side, but also the opportunity to help the community and continue to be a leader in the insurance segment, if you will, sector.

So that's what I've done here at Tar Heel is just help them navigate how to help the local community navigate the insurance process and do things the right way with the highest level of integrity. And it's been a fun ride and now it's evolving again with the policies changing and all that kind of stuff with... I know Mike can talk about he knows more about that than I do, but GAF is continuing to give us resources to help us be the leader in the community and leader in the area. And so we're forever grateful for that, but we take advantage of all of those learning opportunities to try to be the best that we can be.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: It is. So much is changing so fast, and one of the things that I find amazing is areas like yours that we really didn't think about extreme weather before are now extreme weather. I think about that on the West Coast. I didn't even know what insurance claim was until a couple years ago. We just don't do that in Oregon too much on the West Coast, but that is changing. And Eric, you've seen that in your territory, how it's changed and how insurance has started is really becoming a play everywhere on something businesses have to understand. What have you seen and what has been that journey in your territory with insurance?

Eric Small: Oh yeah, absolutely. So I would say that being in the Mid-Atlantic, we do get a little bit of everything, which makes us a unique market where we still have a decent amount of new construction. We have some multifamily oriented contractors, heavy retail. And within the last five years, that has really shifted towards insurance, whether it's an insurance oriented contractor or a retail contractor adopting insurance to navigate that space. So being the local representation in the area, having the relationship with the roofers, we want to make sure that they're doing everything that they're supposed to the right way. Right?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. So Mike, share with us a little bit, like Josh was saying, about the overall history of roofing insurance, that relationship and how it's worked and where it is today. There have been such incredible changes, especially in the last couple of decades.

Mike Thomas: Yeah. So it used to be, taking it back a long time ago as roof off, roof on and it was very simple. And then the estimating got to where it's how many line items could I get on there? And it became more adversarial and you had insurance companies that hated roofers and roofers that hated insurance companies and it just became this, every interaction as an adjuster, my team of adjusters, they were always just a little shy going into every inspection because it was very adversarial. That coupled with the premiums, the amount of weather and everything like that, you're seeing companies really pull back and it's almost like a reset to where the adjusters are following the policy by the letter of the law. Repairs are a reality sometimes and it's not the wild, wild west that it used to be. And with that, that's where the contractors are having to evolve and figure out how do we navigate that?

Do I want to walk away from the opportunity to put on a good roofing system for someone just because their insurance company isn't footing the bill like they may have used to? It's not to say that the insurance company is always right by any means, but what I mean by that is do I walk away from a job that may be a repair or do I now go into my retail mind and sell this job and become a true roofer? A true salesperson, Texas, Minnesota, those states are kind of going to always have hail, but you go to the Mid-Atlantic where these guys are and it's wind. And it may be wind, it's a partial and now I go in and sell. How do I take that insurance and use it as kind of a coupon to that upgrade to a full roof system and take care of something that a homeowner needs to do regardless?

Josh Price: Mike, can I piggyback off of that?

Mike Thomas: Sure.

Josh Price: Mike's spot on there, any roofing company's out there, you can tell if you take a bird's eye view at the company and their sales team and whatever, what they're posting on social media and how they're acting within the community, you can tell pretty quickly which companies are there for the long haul and there for the right reasons and are doing things for the homeowners. Trying to work for the homeowners or for their community or not, whether they're short-sighted and really just focused on getting in and getting out. We always say in our marketing and stuff, we're like, "We'll be there when the storm's over." I think the companies that maintain that perspective and focus will be here for the long haul and the ones that don't are going to find that it's getting more and more difficult to stay in business, really.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. Eric, I would love your thoughts on that too.

Eric Small: Yeah, I totally agree. I think that I say to everyone that the local roofer will always have power in the community because you are the household name versus some of these bigger brands that are coming in and out. And at the end of the day, even though we are providing a service, it's about giving them a complete roofing system that's going to protect what matters most inside of the home. And that's our tagline, which is why we rely so heavily on training from Mike Thomas. We had him in the Mid-Atlantic maybe two weeks ago doing a crash course on insurance work to a variety of different things. We have in-home selling training, we have business operations training outside of just the insurance space too, to make sure that these guys weather the storm, like Josh was saying.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: When I really look back on the history, what we were talking about and it really did seem like there was either people who were working chasing storms or people, the local contractors. That has definitely, local contractors have kind of taken that. And to your point, Josh, they're there. They're there for the long run. They're there for down the road when they need other things. And so bringing that together, and I love the comment from Jennifer. Hello, Jennifer. It's so good to have you here. "We've been able to help homeowners. We don't want to be chasing storms, but want to better understand the process to help our customers." So that's a contractor out of Arizona, what they're looking for. And you don't think of Arizona, but I remember a number of years ago there was huge hail storms that went through Arizona and no one was quite... That really kind of changed the whole market during that time. Mike, thoughts on that?

Mike Thomas: No, I just laugh because, yeah, those hail storms are so unique out there. The local contractor is there, and I'll say what we're trying to do, what I'm trying to do with the storm restoration training is when you have that big storm like Jennifer in Arizona, maybe not in Flagstaff, but maybe in the Phoenix area were to have a large hailstorm come through, be prepared for it and understand the space and be supported to do it. So the big stormers, they know what they're doing all day every day and they're our customers too. But to me, our training, our services, it's how do we take the varsity, the big stormers or the guys and gals from my part of the country in Kansas City that do it all day every day, give them the tips and help them evolve with the industry in a way that is moving alongside insurance, not running into it because ultimately they've got the checkbook at the end of the day.

But how can you do it in a sustainable way no matter the size of your company, to help the varsity get a little better with some tips. Keep your elbow in as you're shooting free throws, something along those lines. If you're the Ravens, keep your foot in bounds so the Chiefs don't win. But with the contractors that don't do storm, it's how do we get the people off the bench, have them prepared for when that storm does come through and have them be able to navigate the space and tap into this side of the industry. If Josh all of a sudden gets a huge hailstorm, he needs to know, "Okay, here's the plays we need to run." And that's why we're building out the training, the marketing resources and the suites of services is to help everybody get in the space because it is such a large segment of roofing in the business that a contractor can tap into.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, I see. Okay. So let's talk about this shift of retail contractors, a combination retail. Josh, like had. You were 98% retail, you now are 30% insurance, right? And how did that process, let's start talking about the process of how you were able to really incorporate that and the tools that were necessary for the company.

Josh Price: I think the easiest way to explain it is within our company, we're not a huge company. There's five sales guys. There were four for a long time and then we just brought on another. But so there's only five of us here. Myself and one other guy mostly handle insurance-related work. The other three primarily handle retail. And I do retail mixed in as well, so does Matt, the other one. But having one or two of us that can navigate the claims process and help... I'll help Mike, Brian and Dalton if they have claims or they're struggling with a homeowner during the claims process. We help each other. You know what I mean? If I have a retail bid that I need help with with siding or whatever, I'll get Brian who's great at retail siding. He'll come and he'll meet the homeowner with me and help. So, we work really synergistically.

And without that, I think that would be difficult, without each of us having a little bit of a focus. Or if you have 10 salespeople, maybe you have three or four of them that are focused on the insurance and the other one's focused on the retail. Everybody has their specialty or what they're an expert in or that type of thing. And it really helps to... It's just like a team. It's just like having a football team. Everybody has a job to do, but they work together as a team. And I think that mindset, and really Joe, the owner of Tar Heel, he's led the way with that and then giving us the tools and resources such as encouraging us to go to Mike Thomas's class and learn from him and go to any of the GAF trainings really. You're always going to pick up nuggets, but focusing on learning and really how to help each other as a team is probably the biggest component to all of it.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Tar Heel has really taken a different approach with homeowners and how to be solution-based and to really help them. Can you talk a little bit about that? And then I want to get into, we're going to get into some specifics on the tools for everyone.

Josh Price: Yeah, I think it starts with transparency from the very beginning. Like Mike said before, or Eric, one of the GAF studs over there, not every roof qualifies for a full replacement. So, being able to assess the property and communicate transparently, honestly, with integrity, like, "Hey Mike, you do have some damage up there, but I'm going to have our repair team and come fix it. This is not claim-worthy in a sense." And being able to say, "Hey, we'll come back next year or call us if half your roof blows off. Then you might be ready to put a claim in." But being able to differentiate between maintaining a long-term customer and/or helping them through the claims process, being able to differentiate between which path to go and really learning from guys like Mike.

I just called Eric the other day after the training. I'm like, "Hey, what kind of access do we have to Mike because I don't want to overstep, but I'll call him every day if that's okay because we have questions and we want to learn and we want to do that." I want to be the best at doing what we do and GAF guys like Mike, guys like Eric and having those resources, Eric answers the phone every time we call. So, I don't know if he's bored or he is got nothing else to do. I don't know. He's probably doing his hair, that type of thing.

Eric Small: Almost got it.

Josh Price: Yeah.

Mike Thomas: So on that, I got I guess bad karma because as soon as I make fun of the Ravens for stepping out of bounds, Zoom exported me from this conversation, but I'm back. And so as Josh hit on, it's sometimes what we're focusing on and he references me, but it's GAF and it's Storm Restoration, it's my team. But it is somewhat of the stuff that you can't control in the insurance space. You can't control what they're doing on that side of the industry. If you follow the food chain up, the biggest purchaser of roofing materials in the world are insurance companies. And so what I stress in these markets that are already nonstop storm or an area like where Josh is that it's maybe not as big of a segment is the homeowner education. So, what can I equip you with? Can I help you understand?

The first thing from a homeowner is, "Hey, I recognized your roof as we inspect it, it doesn't have some stuff that's required by code. Ask your agent if you have code coverage." We stay in our lane, we're experts on the building code, manufacturer's requirements and the scope of repairs, what that looks like, but it's educating them to stay in their lane and then tell the homeowner where they need to go get their answers on the actual process and that. So stay in our lane, but know what questions that homeowner needs to ask to let you know what the homeowner may have because it's a whole different animal if it's $500 out of pocket in a deductible or $5,000 out of pocket. That's a different process for you and that homeowner and how you can support them along that way.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And to that point, Mike, Jennifer had a great question. She says, "What are some of the tips and tricks to help a customer or a homeowner through that process?"

Mike Thomas: So from my perspective, and again, my background is from the claim side, so I wouldn't say there's necessarily any tricks, but it's recognizing what your role is in the process. You don't want your hand slapped for talking policy. If you tell a customer, "Hey, this is how the process works," and it deviates from that, at any point they're going to say, "You did this to me, or How come this went this way? You said it was going to go this way." I've met thousands of adjusters. We all do stuff just a hair different. And so there's not a broad brush rule that's like saying, "What is an asphalt shingle?" Well, you can go across the board and there's little things that are different about every single one. And so it's maintaining your role as that contractor, be the expert on what you're allowed and should be the expert on, but stay up with what they need to know about.

They need to know what their deductible is. They need to know what their code coverage is potentially. Do they have an actual cash value only policy? Meaning they're only going to get a prorated payment. They need to know what they're getting into when they decide they want a claim. You can support them from a contractor standpoint. They don't know how a valley's tied together, those sort of things. But it's helping them know, "Here's what this process may look like, but each insurance company is unique. Here's the questions to ask." And then be in the sidecar not driving because it is their home, it's their experience. And at the end of the day, the insurance company sees them as the customer, not the contractor. And those of you that do insurance work, feel that as you interact with the insurance company. They feel no obligation to have to deal with you, and that's accurate. You're not the policyholder.

Josh Price: Heidi, can I throw something out there for, Jen?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Please.

Josh Price: To again, piggyback off Mike, I think the best practical piece of advice I can give or the best way to answer this question would be Jennifer, if you had, even if it was me, somebody in the industry or multiple people that you could call to talk to about whatever it is, because almost every single claim is, Mike can speak to this, every single claim is different. All the variables are different almost every single time. And you're dealing with the homeowner's personality and what their view of the world is and perspective of life and all those kinds of things. And then you have the adjuster who's also a human and their perspective and their past relationships and history of dealing with contractors.

And there's just so many variables and intangibles that you can't control and you can't... It can get very overwhelming very quickly and all the language in the policy and people say this. It's so crazy. So having somebody, not just GAF as a company and the resources that they provide, but also other professionals or colleagues in the industry that you can reach out to and your team can reach out to and stuff like that is invaluable.

Mike Thomas: And to add onto that, and Eric may have examples of this, but there's so much noise out there. It's a super saturated space. I can find something different on my LinkedIn or YouTube every day talking about how the process works. It's different almost every single time. And what you have to recognize as a contractor, and again, Eric, you may have contractors that recognize this, it's different every time, but it's not that complicated. And so oftentimes what I run into is I'll deal with people here in Kansas City and it's like, "Do you do insurance work?" "No, it's too complicated." It's not. I can tell you it's not that complicated. You just have to be comfortable with it being different every single time. You get a few under your belt, you know the nuts and bolts, you know the conversations to have with the homeowner, you know how to support them and you know what questions they need to ask. And you go with the flow and you flex your retail skills if you need to close a deal on one. But it's a lot, but it's not that complicated.

Eric Small: Agreed. And I think what's intimidating is what we keep reiterating here is that it's a very specific language, and just because it's specific doesn't mean it's difficult. So to summarize what everyone was saying, as long as you stay in your lane, you know what you're talking about and I forget if Mike or Josh said it, but everyone involved is a human and there's going to be emotions involved and all these things. As long as you come in as a subject matter expert in your particular field, you should be successful.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Let's bring up the... I'm just going to share this. Let's talk about this, Mike, because this is some nuts and bolts. They can also go to what Jennifer's asking about and really because there is some terms, Xactimate, different things that contractors need to be aware of. Can you walk us through really what GAF is doing with ScopeConnect and why it's so unique?

Mike Thomas: Yeah, so if I take a non-storm contractor out here and said, "Hey, do you realize that insurance adjusters, they measure their drip edge to the hundredth of a foot?" It would probably make their head spin. Xactimate is a software. Adjusters, we're software. I'll be very honest, until I got to this side of the industry, it was all granules, asphalt and fiberglass and you don't recognize the differences from the insurance world. Even some of our internal conversations as how they roll out discounts for specific things sometimes, it's just very specific, it's very unique. It's not complicated, but there's a sandbox that insurance companies and adjusters play in, whether it's the estimating side or the coverage side and not being able to speak that language is sometimes, like I said, what scares people out of it. And so with ScopeConnect, it was two-fold as a solution, maybe three-fold.

One was to help contractors that are in this space and do this all day every day, help them repurpose people if need be. So if I take a Josh and instead of being behind a keyboard typing in estimates, I can streamline this and have it turn key and he can go do other things that take some expertise on the roofing side. So getting projects started, making sure materials, whatever that other role may be, but you're allowed to not have to take on new employees if we can help you scale through that. The alternative to it is someone who just doesn't know how to speak this language, they get that there's a screenshot of a good one there, but you get that and you just don't know what all this means. You don't know what's missing. You don't know that an Xactimate or even Symbility or CoreLogic estimate that there's extra money associated with steep and high charges.

And so it's just helping speak that language. And then what we really focused on with this is how do we make this something that a homeowner and a contractor can be successful with by making it in a way that's palatable to the way that the insurance claim process goes? This doesn't start off with all your extra crazy stuff that's never going to be incurred and build that bad reputation or that bad taste in the mouth for an insurance company. If Josh is a hundred percent retail and I say, "Hey, turn this in." And this is the language that insurance adjusters speak and they say, "Dude, that stuff is crazy, we're never going to pay for that." Then Josh is discouraged and never wants to get in this space. So it's palatable, it's to code, it's to the manufacturer's specs, but it's written in a way that should be turnkey and goes right through the insurance process with little things to talk about.

And some of those nuances may be that one company pays for one thing and another company pays for that same thing, but they do it in a different action. And so it's really how we supported them to make it where they can be successful, whether it's scale or while getting into the space. And then the third point, as I drew up the three in my head, the third point was that it speaks both languages. From the insurance estimating space, there's typically two primary softwares Xactimate and CoreLogic Symbility. We've got both. So Josh may write a thousand Xactimate estimates a day, but he gets an insurance company that speaks a little bit different dialect of the same language and we support it by having both of those solutions there.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Okay. A couple of questions Jennifer had asked, "If an adjuster's amount comes back for less than the roof replacement, how do we go back and help the homeowner?"

Mike Thomas: So specifically, regardless of pricing, the first thing you have to be aligned on is scope. And I think, Josh, you would speak to that. You don't worry about dollars and cents because if it's missing parts and pieces, you know the dollars and cents are going to change anyway. And so that's as an adjuster, as a trainer, as ScopeConnect, our thing is to make sure that all the parts and pieces are connected. I wrote estimates going too fast, my team wrote estimates going too fast. And you send one out to a homeowner that doesn't even pay to put shingles back on the roof. There's a lot of variables out there just when you're moving at that pace. And so Jennifer, I would answer your question with first, look, make sure does it have everything accounted for if it doesn't make those requests for those things, supplement is not a four letter word.

There are times to where there are just either unknowns or stuff that an adjuster accidentally left off or they may not understand it. They may not realize that you can't reuse some specific things, but make sure the scope's correct, send that into the adjuster, see what their feedback is and then go from there. It's up to you how you want to process that. I'll tell you the homeowner is the customer at the end of the day, but it is very typical for the contractor to do all that back and forth just because they speak the language and that's the customer service side of it for you as a contractor is don't... It's complicated and something unknown for you as the contractor. You don't want to then take your homeowner and say, "Here, you try and learn this language. It was too hard for me." And so you can present it, they can present it, but start from there.

Once you have the scope accurate, then from there, see what the differences are. And from there, does the homeowner, are they taking advantage of the claim from a sense of, "I needed a roof. Let's go ahead and do that full warrantied system, whatever it may be." For retail contractors, the thing I stress as I'm here on my GAF soapbox is if you ever totaled a vehicle, you don't go back and typically buy the exact same year, make and model. Most of us that have totaled a vehicle take that as an opportunity to put that check towards the next version. So if I've got a stapled three tab roof out in Arizona that blew off, do I want to go back with that three tab? Or do I want to now a full system? Or how can I sell to this homeowner, "Here's a full system, here's a warranty, here's why this is the right time to do this."

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That makes total sense. And I'm going to ask this and hopefully, but within Scope Connect, you talked about Xactimate and Symbility. So as contractors are working with GAF, do you help them get into those programs and use those software programs? Is that part of that?

Mike Thomas: Yeah, we do. So Eric, I'll throw it to you for some endorsements hopefully.

Eric Small: Oh, yeah.

Mike Thomas: So go ahead.

Eric Small: No, absolutely. So, that's part of the onboarding process as you become a GIS certified contractors that we have all these tools and services within our business services platform to help you grow your business and facilitate your business. And we'll go through all of our different programs that are available. We have things outside of ScopeConnect where QuickSite is a weather and a code report. QuickMeasure will give you detailed measurements with a complete takeoff. We have a financing platform where we'll actually train the roofer on how to talk about and sell financing to the homeowner. So all of these components are there for the contractor to take advantage of if they see fit. But it's definitely a part of the onboarding process as not only do we have the products to support you, but we also have the programs to make you more dangerous when you're out in the field.

Mike Thomas: And Heidi, on that real quick, this is a joke I make. ScopeConnect is there, but I'm also, I'm a proponent and helped shape that, but I'm also their competition. So my team in training, I'm part of CARE, I'm part of our training organization and we train Xactimate and Symbility. So if a contractor doesn't want to go the ScopeConnect route but wants to learn it, we've got two of less than 70 Xactimate certified trainers in the country. Two of us work for GAF. So it's fully embracing the contractor that wants to get deeper. There you see just the estimating side, some of the stuff we have there, Eric referenced the business services suite, the Weatherhub, things like that. There's a webinar going on right now. And so it's truly how can we support, no matter how big or small you are, how experienced you are to make sure we have the right stuff there. But yeah, I am ScopeConnect's biggest mouthpiece, but also its biggest competition because if you want to do it on your own, we'll get you there.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: We'll get you there. And I think that's really, that's the fear that contractors have of, "How do I do this?" It's not just, well, to Jennifer's point, talking to the homeowners, how to talk that right way, but then what are the mechanics behind it? How do we get these softwares working? I know just in my experience with EagleView, that was a scary thing for contractors to look at Xactimate and go, "I'm not so sure I want to do this." But I have a question too that is a little bit, and it kind of goes back to what Jennifer was saying. What is your recommendations, Mike, I'm going to start with you, but what's your recommendations for contractors in working with adjusters? Is that something that they should be building up those relationships in their community? I know sometimes adjusters are coming from outside just for a storm, but there's a lot there are probably in their community. What are some of your suggestions for them to build those relationships?

Mike Thomas: Yeah. So there's two different types of adjusters. So there are the catastrophe guys and gals, which is what I was. Recognize that my license plates aren't from here and just build rapport based on that. The local adjusters that may be the adjuster you see from that insurance company until one of you quit or retires. And so it's about how do I build that rapport and how do we each do our job with a common goal in mind, taking care of the customer? Embrace it that way. The biggest, I'd say thing that I preach in some of our trainings when people are like, "How do I interact with an adjuster?" We're all human, we're all finicky, but we're all different straight out of the gate say, "Hey, would you like for me to show you what I saw or do you want me to let you do your thing?"

And I equate it to, if I showed up to Josh's crew and said, "Hey, here's where I think you should put the nails," they'd throw me off the roof relatively quickly. So if you meet with an adjuster and say, "Can I show you why you're not very good at your job?" That rapport is probably soured straight out of the gate. And so build that rapport and ask just, "Hey, what's your process? And then I'll support you where I can." But if they say, "I'm going to do this," then go sit in your truck and catch up on phone calls, join one of these sessions, right?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: There you go.

Mike Thomas: Just figure out exactly what you can do at that time if they give it back to you.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That's great. Josh, how are your relationships with adjusters in your community?

Josh Price: So from the beginning, we have viewed the insurance... In a nutshell, the way I view working in the insurance claims world, whatever, it's a game. And depending on your view or your perspective or how you want to play the game is what will dictate what you do, how you act when you're out in the field, on a roof with an adjuster. But meaning playing the long game, building relationships with these guys and girls knowing that, just like Mike said, you're probably going to see them again next week or the next day or whatever. The goal is to work together to restore the property back to pre-loss condition, right? So keeping that in mind, I think where some contractors and companies get lost in the weeds is how can we drive this claim up as much as possible and supplement it and put all these line items in that are either irrelevant or unnecessary or whatever, that's not going to help build long-term relationships, especially with the local adjusters.

So going back there to Jen's question a couple of minutes ago, if just the roof is damaged, if it's Mike's house and it's just his roof, there's nothing else and I can work with that adjuster to get to a number that we can replace the roof and still be profitable, because we're a business, then that's all I'm focused on. And that that's where it ends. And I'll tell the adjuster that. Or in an email, if I'm sending him an estimate, I'll say, "Look, Mike, it was a pleasure working with you. Just so you know, I don't think I'm going to need to supplement anything. This is the last time you'll probably hear from me until the next claim. Can we get to this number?" You know what I mean? Stuff like that, just working together.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Relationships. Yeah.

Mike Thomas: Yeah, for sure. And I wouldn't say that, in no way am I saying bend the knee or everything else. It's work alongside, not against. I'm not saying that that's the adjuster's right every time. I get thrown stuff all day, every day, the stuff that some of Eric's contractors were throwing at me when I was out there. It's like, man, I've done this for a long time and never heard of that. I've never heard someone think that valley metal slides out and slides back in without moving shingles.

So it's more about how do you have those conversations? But we can't speak to all of it. The thing about, I'll just piggyback on Josh real quick, with all the different crazy line items, think long-term. That is the persona that sometimes an insurance company can get of you. I can still give you names of contracting companies that I knew if their estimate came in, it was going to be a mess and it was going to be a pain to work with.

Well, when those things start getting paid for and you get used to operating your business on nickel and diming Xactimate or Symbility at a crazy margin, what happens when you don't have a storm for a couple years? You got used to operating your business at $200 a square more than you actually need and that's what I'm trying to preach. And Eric as well as he supports his contractors in this space and we onboard them, is sustainability. Don't change your playbook. Figure out your numbers and know your numbers and then we'll help you how to have those conversations to get to them. But it's sometimes the quick hits can be the detriment to the long-term success of a company, and we want to set up our contractors and the people that Eric certifies and everything brings on how to be in business a long time because we want to be here to support them for a long time.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That's excellent. That's excellent. And we have a great question here from a commercial roofing contractor says, "Is it safe to replace homeowners with building owners?" Can you be doing these same things that you're talking about with building owners for commercial roofing contractors? Any thoughts on commercial, Mike?

Mike Thomas: So I'll separate commercial to, not multifamily. I'll let Eric talk about multifamily. That's his entire neck of the woods. But from a commercial standpoint, you have to think of how your customer is changing. If my house has a missing shingle on it, I see it every day I turn into my driveway and it is an agitation for me. My motivation to get that taken care of is going to be probably faster than maybe a building owner where I own a shopping center and the leak in that roof in the back room of the kitchen doesn't really bug me. But it's also what can come into play with the commercial side of things is if you take the insurance policy and say the deductible size and magnify it to the commercial, that building owner, it may be $50,000 for them to have a claim going through if they own a strip mall or something like that.

And so they may be, "Replace, replace, replace, but not until the insurance company is going to pay for the whole thing." And so they may be looking for a contractor to build a relationship to be a repair person and provide them that maintenance. And I would latch onto that from a commercial standpoint, that maintenance is who's going to make you their first call when something does strike, when that hailstorm does come through, when that TPO does peel back, whatever it may be. But just you can't plug and play the two because the dollars and cents are just so much different in that space. And Louis, I'm assuming you understand that being in the commercial space, just how different that is. But to the multifamily side, Eric, you deal with that in your East Coast market.

Eric Small: Yeah, we do. We deal with multifamily apartment complexes with shingles or even some HOA work where the HOA community owns the roofs and is responsible for the roofs. And the themes are the same as to what Mike was talking about, where the dollars and cents are just magnified to such a scale where the same way that a HOA might not want to pay for a $1.8 million roofing project. I'm sure the insurance company feels the same way. So it is a longer game. And again, it's just knowing your role and having that relationship with the property manager as you play that long game is key.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And that's-

Mike Thomas: Those don't turn over like residential homes do. That HOA board is buying that and hoping to protect them and all their tenants or their occupants for the long haul. And so sometimes, Eric, I know you'll are really pushing the long-term value of fully warrantied systems [inaudible 00:44:59].

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Gosh.

Josh Price: I was just going to say something that really helps me, I don't know what the word is, I guess maintain a perspective of a long-term perspective, that type of thing. But if I'm inspecting a residential or commercial property, roof, whatever, when I'm done the inspection, if I know exactly how and why that roof should be covered and how to get it covered and do the right thing for the homeowner, then I'll express that to the homeowner and it'll be their decision. Same thing with the commercial. If I understand and see the damage and could document it and build the story to make it make sense and it's legitimate, I'll express that to the property owner. It's their decision what they want to do from there. But if I can't tell the story, it doesn't make sense, it's not legitimate, there's not enough, whatever, then you have to be able to express that to the homeowner and be okay with walking away, especially with commercial properties.

We're doing a bunch of those now and have been for about a year and a half, two years and we've had a high rate of success, but a high rate of success with the claims that we move forward with. We've inspected a ton of shopping centers. You get excited. I'm like, "Yes, this is going to be awesome." And we just did last week. We looked at one, it was in a hail map. Property manager was like, "Yeah, go check it." The shopping center was humongous, right? No damage whatsoever. So you have to be able to be able to tell that project manager in a positive way and shift your mindset to like, "Okay, not this time. You're in a good place." That's good news, really. That can be difficult.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yes. And Louis says, "Thank you. Long game." Totally gets it. Great reminder, so that's perfect. Jennifer had a really great question that Josh, I'd like to point to you to start with and then get everybody's thoughts. But she said, "Some homeowners are afraid to go to their insurance companies because they don't think they will pay. How can we help them to overcome that?" And I get that. I just want to say I get that as a homeowner. I'm like, "They're not going to do anything, so I'm just not going to worry." Josh, how do you work with homeowners around that?

Josh Price: I think that if you just keep it simple in terms of it's not your house, so it's not your decision. All you can do is present as much information as possible so that the homeowner or the property owner can make the most educated decision for their property or their family or whatever the scenario might be. And that's all you can do. You can't control what the homeowner does or how they feel or whatever. You can instill confidence in your ability to help them get something approved or help them navigate the process or whatever. But ultimately it's up to them as to what they want to do. And so it can be difficult, but if you can just keep that simple framework of present as much information as possible, photos, documentation, whatever, give them as much information as possible so they can make the best decision. And then that's it. Just leave it there.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: It does seem, I think about when we had an adjuster come out that at least finding out the information and encouraging homeowners to at least and having that relationship with your local insurance companies can help to start create some of that, at least a comfort to try to maybe reach out. Okay. I know we're coming down to it. So one of the questions that I have, Mike, is what is GAF doing that is unique really? Really when you look at roof scope and you look at what you've put together and what you're doing in the trainings and everything, how is that unique in the market for contractors?

Mike Thomas: So, I'd say what's been unique is first of all bringing in people from the other side of things. So it's understanding just the insurance side of it and how that industry is going to go. And so my background, some others that have come from the similar background and across different companies have a little bit of knowledge as to what that looks like for a carrier, what's attractive to them and just how to navigate this space. And so whether it is the training, the materials, recognizing that, if you think of the insurance, the analogy I like to use is health insurance. It used to be co-pays and go get everything taken care of. Well, now it's high deductible plans and your patient is participating much more. The same thing is true for your homeowner is participating much more. So we train the contractors, help them stay ahead of the curve with just where the industry is going through our background and through our relationships.

And then through things like we know financing is going to be a thing. So whether it's SmartMoney, our option powered by Payzer or just any of the things, hey, financing is part of this. It's helping the contractors be prepared and then help them be educated on how to deal with the homeowner. Armorshield II, Timberline AS II, how can we squeeze more product out? We know that this is a thing, Colorado there's areas where it's required by building code. We know there's a demand in the Northern states because of its flexibility. So we've got announced earlier this year putting new plant in in Newton, Kansas that's going to increase our capacity for polymer modified shingles.

And so it's just thinking of it, recognizing how big the space is and then doing everything we can with our entire focus on the contractor in the center and making sure that well-rounded around that is everything they need to be successful as an existing contractor in this space or as a contractor that is getting into this space and can tap into this viaduct of... What am I trying to think? Revenue. There we go. Short word, big pause.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I love it. And Eric, as you have seen storm restoration, roof scope, all of the things that are coming to help contractors with insurance, how has that really changed and grown the business of your contractors in your territory to be able to really understand this market?

Eric Small: Yeah, I think that just having GAF perspective is that I think that it brings a different conversation to the table, especially as I'm meeting with contractors who may or may not have a history with GIS because we want to come into it and hopefully Josh and the Tar Heel boys can speak to it, but we want to come into it and truly have a relationship. Because if the contractor successful, therefore GAF is successful and we want to have the leading contractors in all capacities, whether it's retail, storm, multifamily, new construction. And if we can use our resources to teach them how to get there, or we can use some of our platforms to facilitate what they're already doing, maybe with some extra incentives or with a quicker turnaround, it's definitely drove the business because we are having different conversations than purely product related conversations.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And Josh, how has this really changed that bigger picture and what's some of your advice to other contractors?

Josh Price: I think having the access to guys like Eric and Mike. For example, Eric came in to our offices a couple months ago and I had no idea. I think he brought us some gifts or something ridiculous to try to keep us happy, something silly like that. But I actually, and I meant to tell you this, Eric, I never told you this, but I thought it was really cool afterwards. I had no idea where we were meeting. We always give Eric a hard time. Our guys here are rough and rugged around the edges and you have to be a certain personality to vibe with them, which is great and Eric does. But he came in and sold us the Timberline HDZ shingle basically. So he gave us a whole presentation on the HDZ, which we sell every day, right? And the whole time it was just cool because it's something we talk about every day and we look at, we're looking at the pamphlets, we're going over it with the homeowners, blah, blah, blah.

But Eric comes in, he sits down and he got the presentation, the HDZ talking about the copper, the algae. And we're talking about it as if it was this new product, you know what I mean? And I thought he did an awesome job. It should be Eric Big, not Eric Small. So that was just a simple thing. But we started talking and that was just a relationship builder. And I learned, I picked up a couple nuggets about the shingle that we sell every day. So that's just a little thing, but that relationship there, Joe could speak to it better, the owner of Tar Heel because he leans on Eric all the time. And Eric, he's always there to help. And so it's huge. I forgot the second part of that question. I forget what you asked, but-

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Just some of your advice to, just a summary of advice to other contractors out there who want to bring insurance into their business and working differently with homeowners.

Josh Price: Yeah. I think figuring out first and foremost as a company or a salesperson within the company, whether you're going to commit to the insurance game or not. Because if you're not committed, you're going to be left behind. We get a ton of customers. My favorite customer, and I get them pretty frequently, is a customer that started with another company because they knocked on their door. They get them halfway and then they can't go any further because they're not committed, they're not patient, they're not as knowledgeable, whatever the reason is. Then that homeowner calls us and I can take over and I dive into it like a detective or whatever, trying to figure out all the pieces. That is fun to me. But if that sounds miserable to you, then you probably shouldn't do it. At least this type of storm restoration, that type of thing. So commit to it or not.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Seems like to that point, that's a great point, hiring the right person. Hiring somebody like that who wants to fix the puzzle, who wants to dive into it. And you said that at the very beginning of this hour, but have some people who are committed to the insurance within your sales team and that will help the whole company commit. So, that's great advice.

Mike Thomas: Heidi, can I add one thing? I think it'll answer Jennifer's question. But to take what Josh said about Eric and tie it back to what's unique is it is enterprise wide for GAF, investing in the right people and hiring the right people, not third party. My team is not third party. We are GAF. And so what's unique is that we're not shipping Josh out to someone else to get training. We're having you as your manufacturer, bringing you into our ecosystem, align it from top to bottom, from across the entire company to pour into you as our contractor and give it from the manufacturer. Not different partnerships to where you may have someone that's here today and next week they're with a different manufacturer. What value am I bringing you if I just attach you to someone? Whereas I can attach you to GAF and then take your input and evolve our business and shape how we go forward.

To Jennifer's point there, we have marketing resources. So connect with a GAF territory manager in your area, and we've got how an insurance claim works to present to a contractor that they can educate the homeowner. You don't have to be the expert on it. Let us help you and support you through this. And I think that's truly what's unique is that we're tied in top to bottom to support contractors in this space.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yes, and that was going to be my next question to you, Mike, is how can people get started? They get in touch with their territory manager. And how do they find their territory manager?

Mike Thomas: Yeah, so on the website, if you're a contractor, you can find a territory manager. We have Eric and his colleagues across the entire country that are excited to support you with whether it's our training outside of storm restoration, but our resources, everything there. And so if you go to GAF.com select that you're a contractor and you can find a territory manager and you'll have their name and phone number there. And then if you say that you watch this, they'll for sure be interested to get your feedback as well, because we're always wanting to implement it and improve as we go forward.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That's excellent. Gentlemen, thank you so much. And Jennifer, thank you for the amazing questions. Love you, and hope we see you at Western States. Those are great questions and I hope this really helped. This is going to be on demand, so if you want to share this with your company, be able to get it out there. This is the kind of information everybody needs. Also, please check out GAF's directory on RoofersCoffeeShop. You can get all the information there too as we connect with all of that. So once again, Josh, Eric, Mike, thank you so much for being on Coffee Conversations this morning.

Mike Thomas: Thanks for having us.

Eric Small: Thank you.

Josh Price: [inaudible 00:59:10].

Outro: Thank you and thank you, GAF, for sponsoring this excellent conversation and getting information out to the industry that is really needed not only for the industry, but helping all the consumers and homeowners and building owners out there. So, thank you so much. We will be seeing you all again on October 10th for celebrating Hispanic Heritage in roofing. I'm so excited about this. Look at this panel. It is going to be absolutely incredible. So, join us on October 10th. Also, we will have live coffee conversations from Western Roofing Expo next Monday at 2:00 PM sponsored by General Coatings and Everroof. Oh and I need to mention Johns Manville for Hispanic Heritage Month. So, lots of great stuff coming on. We have an excellent panel coming from Western States talking about what the trends are and what's happening. So, please join us. We will be seeing all of you again soon. Coffee Conversations. Have a great day.