The Culture of Women in Construction - PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Danielle Pack from USG and Dawn Holsinger from Delta Rep Group. You can read the interview below or listen to the podcast. 

Introduction: Welcome to Roofing Road Trips with Heidi. Explore the roofing industry through the eyes of a long-term professional within the trade. Listen for insights, interviews, and exciting news in the roofing industry today.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Hello and welcome to Roofing Road Trips from Roofers Coffee Shop. This is Heidi Ellsworth, and I am road tripping south and east today to meet with some amazing women in roofing. And I want to say women in construction, because that is really... We all are in construction, but we talk about roofing so much, but we kind of got to remember that we have Women in Construction Week, NAWIC, so many great organizations out there that we just wanted to kind of bring attention to it. So, we have invited Danielle Pack with USG and Dawn Holsinger with the Delta Rep Group to come and talk about women in roofing and women in construction. Ladies, welcome to the show.

Danielle Pack: Thank you.

Dawn Holsinger: Thank you.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Before we dive in, because we have so much to talk about, so many great things, before we dive in, I'd like to have you both introduce yourselves. So, Danielle, if you could start, just introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about what you do with USG and about USG overall.

Danielle Pack: Sure. Well, my name is Danielle Pack, and I am the South Central regional manager for USG and I am in the Securock cover board division. Obviously, it's in roofing. I'm the newest member to the team, so I've been here for two years. My experience within roofing and construction has been an interesting journey, but one I've enjoyed along the way, and I am thrilled to be a part of USG. Very happy to be here.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Very cool. Welcome to the show. We're so happy to have you.

Danielle Pack: Thank you.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: This is great. We just met in Texas last year...

Danielle Pack: We did.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Last fall, and so...

Danielle Pack: We did.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: It's been so much fun ever since. Okay, Dawn, if you could introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about your company.

Dawn Holsinger: Hi, I'm Dawn with Delta Rep Group, and I have been a manufacturer rep my entire career. I started in 2001, so over 20 years now. I was an employee, and I did a lot of admin things along the way, and then I had some part in sales, and in 2017, I became a business partner. So, I have my own company, and then I have two other male partners, Justin Burnham and Wayne Hieronymus. When I started in the industry, Wayne and I were working together, and we were the first USG Securock rep. And so, we've had it ever since it started, and now it is very successful, and we're happy to still be the rep for Florida.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That is excellent. Yeah, these relationships, as we know, because Dawn, I've known you for quite a while, these relationships grow, and the business that comes from that is so... I don't know, so good. It's when... strong relationships over long term, it makes such a big difference. That's why I kind of wanted to talk a little bit today about your journeys. I'm going to be celebrating my 30th year in roofing, believe it or not, and it's been just such a great journey, and I love to hear people's stories. Danielle, you kind of started down that road a little bit, so maybe tell us about your journey, your career in construction and roofing and your experiences as a woman in that.

Danielle Pack: My experiences started, actually, with a joint venture in owning a construction company. It was really an interesting perspective, because I was more behind the scenes then and just kind of learning and hearing about the different things, and then you kind of get sucked into it that way. So it's like, "Wow, this is... I want to know more." Like, "What are you talking about? How does this work, and how do you coordinate all these different things?" So, when I moved out and I ended up in Texas, I actually had an opportunity to get into manufacturing, and that was when my eyes really opened, and I was like, "I have a lot of learning to do." As a female, yeah, it makes it a unique journey to me, but I just think in general, what I really realized was I need to get out and get involved. You hear people say, "Get involved, you need to get involved," but actually doing it is completely different.

It's not just a smooth-sailing path with no bumps in the roads or hard times. It's been climbing on the roof and finding it out and dealing with those customers and the customers teaching you. Not being afraid to ask the questions, right? Like, "I don't know, teach me." And when you say those things, people have been overwhelmingly supportive, more so than you would think, but it was hard to put myself out there. It was not always easy, but once I started doing that, and then the networking, and just... they kept building, I created, basically, my own momentum to keep going. Then, I went into another manufacturing and learned a little bit more, and then my role changed again, and then I ended up at USG. And now, again, the role changed a little bit more, but you just keep building on those skills and the things that you've learned.

Now, it's... Looking back, I'm like, wow, I have a great circle of influence of people that are there to support me and influence me, and National Women in Roofing is one of those that I heavily rely on. People like Dawn, working with Dawn, she has, like you said, been doing this for a really long time, but now we get to work together. And first thing I did when I started was call her and ask her, "How did you get started? How did you even start?" And I was like, "Dawn, I hear you're the lady, tell me about this. Like, what's going on? And what makes a good Securock regional manager for you? How does that look like?" Just not being afraid to put myself out there and ask the questions, and then it just builds.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. You're so smart.

Dawn Holsinger: Asking questions doesn't show weakness. It does not show weakness. It shows strength.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I agree. And Dawn, so often, you and I have both kind of been there, where people kind of look at you and like, "Don't you already know?" "No, I don't, that's why I'm asking these questions." But now, it's a different feel, I think, where it's okay to ask questions, and people respect that more. I've seen that change over the years.

Dawn Holsinger: Definitely.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Before we move on, because Dawn, I want hear your story, but Danielle, so those manufacturers before USG, were they roofing? Or were they...

Danielle Pack: They were.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: They were. Okay.

Danielle Pack: Yeah. My experience prior was started off, like I said, in construction, general contracting, and then it went into metal manufacturing, and then coatings.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: So, you've got it across the board. See, that's...

Danielle Pack: I've had it [inaudible 00:07:23].

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, that's the part I love. I look back on my career, and I think about all the different companies I worked with and how they've totally brought me to where I'm at today, and finding mentors in each one of those challenges, but also just success as you work through it. Dawn, please share your journey and your story about women in construction and roofing.

Dawn Holsinger: Well, I accidentally got in, like most people that you talk to because, you don't set your mind to get into roofing construction as a woman, although we're here to change that. I ended up working for Wayne's in-laws, and his father-in-law is Erskine Franklin, who was the president of Seletech, so the history of roofing goes way back for Wayne. Anyway, that's how I met Wayne, and he actually is my mentor. I can't say enough about having a mentor. I was asked to be on a panel, and it said on there, "Who's your mentor?" But it was National Women in Roofing, and I was struggling, struggling. I'm like, "I don't really have a woman mentor." And then I'm like, "It doesn't have to be a woman. Why does it need to be a woman?"

So, once I got past that, I was like... Anyway, but how it moved along for me was how inclusive Wayne made me. Once you have someone that can bring you in the industry as a woman, when there weren't women, I was pretty readily accepted. I wasn't going to a lot of things in the beginning by myself, so I was with Wayne, but it's changed so much over the years, seeing how many women are involved nowadays where there were very few, or they were behind the scenes, and they didn't get to attend anything.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. And a lot of times, they didn't even get acknowledged, because I...

Dawn Holsinger: Oh, right.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, I think of my mom and dad. My dad was a general contractor, and it was always referred to as my dad's company. It was always Dad's company. But my mom did the books. My mom took the phone calls. She did the sales. It was their company, but it was never referred to that way. I think that has really changed a lot.

Dawn Holsinger: Yeah. I was trying to promote National Women in Roofing to different places, and I had the information I wanted to leave, and I would go in and talk to them, and I would say, "You could offer this to the ladies in the back." And they're like, "Yeah, they don't need it." Because they really don't understand that they're making the decisions for them, and they need to make their own decisions. And so, it still has a ways to go, but it's definitely going in the right direction.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. Well, you know what? We're talking about National Women in Roofing, so I just kind of want to continue on that here for a minute. I would love to hear how you both got involved with National Women in Roofing and what you're doing today. Danielle, maybe start with you talking about how you've been involved and how you got started.

Danielle Pack: When I think about how I got started, it's kind of like how I got involved in roofing. I kind of fell into it. I was looking for ways to get more involved and finding ways to connect, so I just started looking it up. And I'm like, "Hey, this seems like a good organization." I remember I went to my first National Women in Roofing Day, and I was like... didn't know a soul. And I walked into this place with all these women. I'm like, "Okay, I can do this." And I go in there, and I sit down at the table, and I still talk to these women today. When I sat down at the table, we all introduced ourselves, and then we kind of had a little time where we got to talk to each other in a break, and then everyone was there. Everyone didn't know each other at that table, and it was fantastic.

So, National Women in Roofing Day is one of the most moving things you can go to. It's an amazing day, and there's so much learning that goes on, and I just love it. But afterwards, I went back, we'd done the mixer, and I'm in my room kind of getting ready for the evening to go get something to eat, and I get this phone call, and it's the girl I sat at the table with, and she was like, "Hey, we're all going to dinner, do you want to go?" And I was like, "This group works fast." I was like, "Yeah."

Next thing you know, we're out, and we're talking, and I was like, "This is it. This is how it works, it's networking, it's getting involved." It was happening organically, and it was amazing. So then, from there, I was like, "I got to find out how to get more involved with this group." So then, I started getting involved in my local council, and then I got on the board, and now, I'm currently the co-chair with an amazing individual, and shout out to Casey Troxclair with Kpost. She's fantastic. The two of us work together, but it's amazing.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I love it. Yeah, this makes my heart sing, hearing all this. Dawn, please share how you got involved with National Women in Roofing.

Dawn Holsinger: I heard that this person Heidi had created and started this National Women in Roofing, which was like all this... "Wow, what's this organization?" So, I naturally joined and attended, and I'm pretty sure it was the first one, but we did a walk in the morning that you've posted it. I remember it started raining, and we just huddled in the corner under this one area. But in my mind, the whole time, I'm thinking, "That's Heidi. That's her right there." Now I have her cell phone.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Just Heidi. Yeah, it's just Heidi.

Danielle Pack: We're like [inaudible 00:13:22]

Heidi J. Ellsworth: In New Orleans. That was fun.

Dawn Holsinger: It was. It was New Orleans.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. Yeah.

Dawn Holsinger: So, anyway...

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And Dawn, you've been so involved. Go ahead, keep going.

Dawn Holsinger: I wouldn't miss it for the world. It is the best day of the year. It's so amazing. And so, I started on... The Tampa Council was already existing, and I just got involved on that. Then, I served as the chair for a couple years too many, and then I finally got to pass the torch. This past year, I am now on the national National Women in Roofing board, and I'm the co-committee-chair for Community Service with Susan DeGrassi, and it's been awesome. I'm so happy that she was able to let me be the co-chair, because I was currently serving as president of IIBEC for Florida, so I needed a little break. And now I'm past president, so moving forward, I should be able to take on the role. But we're doing a breakout session at the National Women in Roofing Day, and it's very exciting. [inaudible 00:14:34]

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. It's going to be a great one this year. I'm so excited for it. There's so many great speakers and breakouts, and I just wish we could get to all of them in that day.

Danielle Pack: I know.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I'm always like, "I want to go to every single one."

Dawn Holsinger: That's true.

Danielle Pack: How do you just pick one each time? You're like, "Man, I'm so torn."

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I know.

Dawn Holsinger: I know. Well, now I'm posting one. So now, I'm like, "I'm even missing then," so... It's all right, though.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: But your wisdom being shared is so important. I'd kind of like to talk about that a little bit, because one of the things, obviously, we talk about in National Women in Roofing just overall is recruitment of women into roofing. And retention. I think that's really important, too, because once you're in, and once you feel good and you know people, no one leaves roofing, right? But those first couple years are always a little delicate, and you have to be careful that they're feeling included. So, Danielle, maybe starting with you, what's some of your advice to companies about trying to recruit and retain women into roofing?

Danielle Pack: My advice to companies would be to probably look at USG. USG as a whole is pretty amazing in the sense that they are committed to a culture that is one of diversity and inclusion and understanding. All of those. When you look at us, diversity is one of our core values. I mean, it's not just something we talk about. They really try to promote it all the time, and inclusion is equally as important as diversity. They take the viewpoint, or we take the viewpoint, that having different people and different backgrounds and all of us working together all the time is what brings the innovative thoughts and perspectives to our jobs on a daily basis.

USG has actually... And I just learned this not that long ago, but they've actually doubled the number of women that they have in managerial roles in the manufacturing side of things. Over the past 10 years, that's been taking place. They really focus on females in professional leadership positions, and that's been changing for quite some time. They realize that it's not just one event or one thing, that it's a consistent journey. So, if I was to advise other companies, I would say, think of that. Think of it from a USG standpoint, that we're on this journey, and it's going to take some time to get there, but it's all the different recruiting efforts and the employee resources groups. Oh, my gosh, we have our own resource groups. It's amazing. We have Women in Manufacturing. We also have Women in Sales, and both of those groups support the women within the organization, our own organization, to have a platform that they can get together and ask questions and feel included. It also shows that the company cares. They're invested in us as much as we're invested into them.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I love what you said, too, about this really focused in women in leadership roles, because when we're talking about bringing young people in, or anybody, any women out there, you want to see someone that's like you. You want to see that career path. Like, "I could be like Danielle, I could be a regional sales manager." I think that's impactful, and that it's something we need to focus on even more, because for so long, women weren't always encouraged to look at that career path. You kind of got in one spot and you stuck, but that's not the case anymore, and it's definitely not what this next generation wants.

Danielle Pack: Oh, no, I don't think so at all. And I think that having things like these resource groups that they have, it's not just women, right? We're talking about women today, but there's other groups that are a part of that. Inclusion includes all kinds of different things, and diversity is not just women. It covers a broad perspective of things, so yeah, it's pretty cool.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, we work with a lot of young people, and it's very... They want to know, "What's the path, and can I do that?" Dawn, what are some of the things... You've been involved in so many different groups and seeing across the board, but what is some of your advice on recruiting more women into roofing and keeping them? Retention?

Dawn Holsinger: Well, I'd like to start on the retention one, and it kind of goes back to that making sure that people are included. And as much as I love the idea of promoting the leadership roles for women, we have to remember that a huge section is not going to be in leadership, and they kind of will feel a little excluded at times, I find. Especially at National Women in Roofing Day, if it's too geared towards something that doesn't pertain to you... And it works on both sides, so it's this same thing within our industry group. We have to be diverse, because there's so many roles and jobs across the board that you don't want them to feel like they don't belong there either, so it really goes to that making everyone feel included on the retention side.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. And important. [inaudible 00:20:33]

Danielle Pack: Well, I was just going to say.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah.

Danielle Pack: I was going to say, it's not just in what you said, but it's also valued. I'm valued. I'm valued in the position that I am in. I'm supported in the position that I am in. I am accepted in the position that I am in, right? I'm all those things to the organization I'm with or the company that I'm with.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, I love that. That's an excellent point. That's so true.

Dawn Holsinger: On the side of bringing in, I think we have to get into a different side of younger career days and job fairs, because the initial reaction to... I don't care who I tell, that I'm in roofing, is, "You're in roofing?" And you wouldn't think to bring... Honestly, this goes on the male side, too. We're very short on labor in our industry, and there's so many different opportunities of jobs. It isn't all just putting a roof on the building or the house. I think we have our work cut out for us to make them aware of all of the job opportunities that are there within the construction industry and the roles that anyone can play.

I mean, the only thing I can think of is catching them young, but even some of our generation we have to educate on that, because we had a National Women in Roofing meeting at a manufacturer, and before they opened to present to us, we were asked to present what National Women in Roofing is. So, our chair went through the entire thing, and he was blown away. And he said, "I have to say that I have a daughter, and I wouldn't think of having her come into the industry. However, this has been a great career for me, and it's very lucrative, and I don't know why." He didn't have a reason. I think it's because you just grew up that way, thinking that.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I think that's so true. But when they see this room full of amazing professional women, all of a sudden, everything kind of changes. That whole thought process will... And really successful careers.

Dawn Holsinger: Absolutely. One of the podcasts I had to do, or panels I was on, it said something about your career. And I was like, "I don't know that I've ever used that word. This is my career." Because I think when you get in, it's not... You're dabbling in, you're a little in, you're a little in, then you're like, "This is my career."

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. I mean, when we start out, you're just, "I need a job." And there you are, right?

Dawn Holsinger: Right.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I think that's why these professional groups, women professional associations and groups, are so important. And we've talked a lot about National Women in Roofing, and I have to admit, I haven't been involved in that many other women's... I mean, that's kind of why we started it, because we didn't have a whole lot. And I never really got involved with NAWIC that much, although I've talked to them and they're great. Also, metal industry has Women in Metal. But what's been your experiences with other groups outside... Like you said earlier, Danielle, Women in Manufacturing? What are some of the groups that you're seeing where women can also get involved?

Danielle Pack: Well, you had mentioned it, NAWIC, right? There could be other things. Dawn had mentioned IIBEC. That's a group that you can get involved in. It's not just for women, but it's something that you can be involved in. I mean, there's lots of different groups that you can be involved in. I personally have not been a part of NAWIC. I spent a lot of my time focusing on National Women in Roofing cause it directly relates to what I do.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Right.

Danielle Pack: [inaudible 00:24:48] So, yeah.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Pretty the same way. And I also think, too, I know Michelle Boykin, who's the chair of National Women in Roofing right now is super involved in CREW, which is women in commercial real estate, and that... She's president. She's just done a great job there, too. So, it's not always just within your industry. Sometimes it's the people you're selling to. You lean into their industries, right? Yeah.

Dawn Holsinger: Yeah. There is a Women in Architecture group, too. Yeah, there's plenty. I actually am a member of NAWIC, and I've attended a lot of their meetings. They're very organized. I'm really impressed. And they've tried to get me on the board, and I'm like, "I can't right now." But I definitely recommend getting involved. One of the things, I started out on the board for JDRF, for Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation, and I learned so much about business by being on the board. And it's free. You're volunteering, and you're getting educated. I put together a strategic plan, being on a committee, and all of these things you can bring into your own industry. Same with the associations. Once you get on and you're understanding the format, that's the way most of them run, so you can be part of the industry, and you learn so much from the actual associations.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Well, and like you said, you're the past president of IIBEC, and IIBEC has not traditionally had a lot of women.

Dawn Holsinger: No. This past year, I think it was '21, it might have been. Anyway, it was not that long ago. And they had their first woman on the board of the IIBEC National. The first time ever. We've paved the road in Florida, though. We've had many women on, and I think I'm the second president, because Susie was ahead of me. And then, I don't know that... I think she was the first.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: When you think about that, you guys have my mind just turning. But when you think about that, too, there's still a number of roofing contractors' associations out there who have not had a woman president. Most of them now have started to get women on the board, because they realize how important it is, so I think we're going to see a lot of women more in that president or chairperson in the next 10 years, because it seems like people are working their way up through that process. But I'm always surprised when I see it. I think NRCA's only had one, but Lisa Sprick is coming up next. So it is, it's something... We think we've had success. There's still so much more.

Dawn Holsinger: Right. You get caught up in... You think we're... And we are moving it along, but then when I heard that this is the first one, I was like, "Are you kidding me? It took this long?"

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I know. I know. Yeah. Because that there wasn't even that many women consultants for a long time. It was always men. So, let's talk about that. So Women in Construction Week, this podcast is coming out during that week, which is USG. Brilliant. I love the idea and to really focus on that. But I would love to share, and you kind of did it at the beginning, but I'd also like to just kind of come back to it. What do you see as your biggest success of being in construction, your career? What's that success story that you'd like to share? Danielle, we'll start with you.

Danielle Pack: The success story for me, for being in this field?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. Yeah.

Danielle Pack: Honestly, it's about me. It's my success story to myself and the fact that you can... In the beginning, I wasn't sure if I was going to be cut out for it, right? I'm like, "This is hard." It was like, "There's a lot I don't know." But what I did, and again, it's a personal success, and it was realizing that I could continue to do it and continue to grow and to keep going and moving forward. And where I'm at right now, the company that I'm in right now, really is helping continue to push that for me. And that, to me, is a success, right? Just to look back, to be able to turn around, look over your shoulder and say, "Hey, I was this girl that started way back here, and I climbed a lot of roofs to get here." That is a success.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That's a huge success.

Danielle Pack: Yeah. For me, personally.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Well, and when you think about it, so many times, people were like... didn't even think you should be out on a roof or climbing a ladder, and then to do it and to prove that, I mean, that's just really... I don't know. I think it's...

Dawn Holsinger: [inaudible 00:30:08]

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Impressive.

Danielle Pack: To build on that, though. Part of the success for me is now being at the position where I'm at and my involvement in different things. I'm on the mentoring committee for National Women in Roofing, and being able to share and motivate and promote success in others has been almost just as gratifying as where I've been able to achieve for myself. Now, it's like, "How can I encourage someone else to do that? Hey, don't be afraid. I've been that person in your shoes, and I pushed through that, and I'm here for you." And then, to build them up like that, that's the ultimate success right there.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. Man, I love that. That's exactly it. Because for so long, and this goes ways back, I don't see this really today as much. I'm sure it's still out there, but I just don't see it. But it would be like, "Well, only one woman can be at that top level." It created this atmosphere of women fighting women and holding each other down, whereas today it's what you're saying. It's like, "I'm lifting them up, man. We're all together. We're rising." And I love that. I think that's what had to happen, and that is a huge success.

Dawn Holsinger: That's such a great story, Danielle. I love the fact that you're talking about being the mentor and how it makes you feel and you're doing this for them. It's such a win-win. But that's why I love that I'm on the community service side of National Women in Roofing. That's the same for me. It's a win-win feel. And I guess all of it is, when you really get into it. But I was just thinking while I was nodding, going, "What was my success story?"

And of course, my success story for my business is that I opened and started my own business. And I actually have my business certified as women-owned, so I'm really proud of that. But the one thing that comes to mind on my success was the WCRCA is the local Tampa affiliate for the FRSA, and every year they have awards, and this was the one association that was... I remember Wayne taking me to, I was always the only woman. Always, always. There were never any other women. Anyway, I received their Byron Curry Award, and it was so huge that these men voted for me to win, and I won it before Wayne did.

Danielle Pack: [inaudible 00:32:34].

Dawn Holsinger: I was loving it.

Danielle Pack: That's a huge success, Dawn. That is like... I would be celebrating that, too, for sure.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, that's huge. I love it. I mean, those are the kind of things that I think... I asked that success question because we need to have other women see that, right? See, yeah, there's been struggle, there's been challenges. But really see the success, see where women in this industry and so many other industries have come.

Dawn Holsinger: Well, the big thing here that comes back to is that this... We are supported by the men. I was at one of the National Women in Roofing... I think it was one of the first ones. There was an evening happy hour, and it was attended by many, many men in suits. It was all the high men in the fields, all were there, and it really, really took me back, going... I couldn't believe some of the people that were there. I'm like, "Wow, they're all here supporting National Women in Roofing, all of us." And that's where you can get women in, by showing that men are supporting it, so there isn't a conflict.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. It's not us or them. It's all together.

Danielle Pack: Right.

Dawn Holsinger: Correct.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. Yeah. And I do have to say, I think that first meeting where we had so many people, I think they were also kind of wondering, "What the heck is this?" But they all still come, and they're all so supportive, and...

Dawn Holsinger: They do. Absolutely.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: It's excellent. That kind of leads me into one of my last questions, but what can we do as an industry? We started National Women in Roofing. I've been seeing a lot of diversity, some amazing education in diversity. We just celebrated Black History Month, and so we're really... I see the changes, but what are some of the things you think we can do overall in our industry to continue to grow diversity, equity, and inclusion? And also, just to make it by doing that, to make us appealing to people outside of roofing who actually are going to get into roofing and say, "I wanted to get into roofing, that I had no idea I would get into roofing," right? Like most of us say today.

Dawn Holsinger: Change the story.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, change the story. So, Danielle, what do you think?

Danielle Pack: I honestly think the one thing that we can do as an industry is recognize that it is a journey, and we keep having the conversations. Having the conversations, bringing it out, bringing it up, and then getting together and figuring out, like we're doing, through the different facets. How do we continue to grow that momentum and keep it going? Because it's going to be podcasts like this, it's going to be other conversations, recognition of different things that bring those things to light and continue to attract those people for those reasons.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I think that's 100%. That's so true. Dawn?

Dawn Holsinger: Well, we need to start younger, definitely. We have to start getting our youth involved. I know that the FRSA, which it could be all through NRCA, but they do the young affiliates, or the Young Professionals. Oh, that's right. We have women on the cover of the Young Professionals right now. That's huge.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Very.

Danielle Pack: Shout out to those girls.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, that's awesome.

Dawn Holsinger: Leigh, Kristen, it's amazing. And they're not even... As young as I'm talking about, they're already in their careers and doing amazing job, but we have to get so that they think about this for a career.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yes. Yeah.

Danielle Pack: You could utilize things like, well, look, they have that book that's written, The House that She Built. I know we've talked about that, where it's at the children's level, right? Younger children that are seeing it, that, "Hey, I'm a female, or I'm a girl, and I could do this, too. I can be an architect, or I could be a surveyor," whatever it may be that can contribute to this. There's a whole process that's involved in the construction. Like she mentioned before, Dawn, it's not just the person that puts on the roof. There's a lot of facets.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Right. And you hear about so many people just like you, Danielle, who really started out with their own construction company or started out working for general contractors or re-modelers. Roofing kind of got left behind, but that has definitely changed. Well, ladies, this has been great. I have to tell you, we could go for another 30 minutes. No problem. So, thank you so much for being here today and sharing your wisdom. Thank you for everything you're doing for the industry. You just are both so inspirational, and I just can't thank you enough for being on the show today.

And thank you all for listening. Thank you so much for being here today. Be sure to check out the USG directory on Roofer's Coffee Shop. Also, we have the Delta Rep Group has a directory on Roofer's Coffee Shop. So, check out both of those directories, get all kinds of information, see what they're doing, what they're up to. I can tell you we have a lot of great charity events that Dawn has been involved in that have great articles on Roofer's Coffee Shop too. So, check it all out. Be sure to check out all of our podcasts under the Read, Listen, Watch Initiative with Roofing Road Trips or on your favorite podcast channel. Be sure to subscribe and set those notifications so you don't miss a single one. We'll be seeing you next time on Roofing Road Trips.

Speaker 1: Make sure to subscribe to our channel and leave a review. Thanks for listening. This has been Roofing Road Trips with Heidi from the rooferscoffeeshop.com.