S2:E53 Gabe D. Pinilla and Ryan K. Markham - Get to Know the Colorado Cotney Office - PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of an interview with Gabe D. Pinilla and Ryan K. Markham from the Cotney Construction Law Denver, CO Office. You can read the interview below or listen to the podcast here.

Speaker 1:
Welcome to Roofing Road Trips with Heidi. Explore the roofing industry through the eyes of a longterm professional within the trade. Listen for insights, interviews, and exciting news in the roofing industry today.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Hello, welcome to another Roofing Road Trip and we are road tripping. In fact, this is one of the first podcasts for the new Cotney Around The Globe Podcast series. My name is Heidi Ellsworth, and this podcast is sponsored by Cotney Construction Law and we have the honor today of meeting the Denver office of Cotney Construction Law. And so I would like to introduce everyone today to Gabe Pinilla and Ryan Markham. Welcome gentlemen.

Ryan K. Markham:
Hey, thanks so much for having us, Heidi. It's a pleasure.

Gabe D. Pinilla:
Yeah, thanks, Heidi. We're honored to be here.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Well, you know what? I think there's not a secret, but Cotney is one of my favorite groups. You all do amazing things for the industry, you're wonderful to work with and so I always learn something from these podcasts. So I expect today will be no different as we start this around the globe because Cotney's everywhere. But I have to tell you, I love the Denver office. My daughter lives in Denver, Megan, who's our media and podcast producer. And the people in Denver are incredible. So before get into what's happening in Denver and all the good things, I would love for us to have both of you just introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you're doing before and now with Cotney. So Gabe, let's start with you.

Gabe D. Pinilla:
Sure. Well, I joined Cotney this year and my background is in business and commercial law and litigation. For the last five plus years, I have done a ton of work for contractors in a variety of different areas of the construction industry. More recently, I've been doing a lot of work with more and more roofers than ever before. And obviously part of that is because our firm passion for the industry between Trent and John [Kenney 00:00:02:18], we have a huge interest in the industry. And now I'm seeing my practice become more and more diverse because I'm seeing 360 degrees of construction law, whereas before I was dealing more with the litigation side of things. And so it would be a lot of disputes between on a business to business level and I'd be working on contracts and things of that nature. And so now I've got more into the regulatory stuff, more into the legislative side of things, which is really exciting as well. And so, diving into that area here locally in Colorado and in the greater Denver area has been super cool to do. And so I'm excited to keep on plugging away there.

Heidi Ellsworth:
That's great. I love how the Cotney Group has really brought everything together. Law, law [inaudible 00:03:10] business, success, like you said, regulatory. Very cool. We're going to get more into that, but before we do Ryan, introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what's happening.

Ryan K. Markham:
Yeah, so like Gabe, I joined the firm about a year ago... not a year, sorry, this year. And before that I worked in Hawaii for a long time as a construction attorney. And I was fortunate enough to be part of Hawaii's construction boom we had maybe the last five or six years. The joke was our state bird was the tower crane because there were so many all over town. And in that I was able to have the opportunity to work with a lot of roofing contractors. And I just absolutely adore all my roofing contractor clients. I feel like it is a very special trade and so many of the companies are family owned, but just the community itself of roofers gives off a great family feel. So I'm happy to be in the Denver office. I have a lot of deep Colorado roots and really excited to be working with Gabe and working with you all with the CRA and yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. And you just made me think of something, Ryan. Why don't you share the states that you're barred in, just so that everybody... because it's not just Denver that do you work for?

Ryan K. Markham:
Yeah, that's correct. So I'm licensed in Hawaii, Colorado and Minnesota. And I also have a district of Columbia license as well.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Wow. And Gabe, where are you licensed?

Gabe D. Pinilla:
So Colorado, obviously also Texas and Florida. And I have long roots, family ties in all three of those states. So that was the emphasis there. I'm also in Maryland. So I should have that licensure soon as well. And that's sort of where I went to undergrad. So I've got a lot of friends in the industry there as well in particular in the roofing business, so.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah, I think that's one of the things that's just so amazing when you talk to any lawyers with the Cotney Construction Law. They have multiple states, multiple states. I'm always so impressed with that. And so really any contractor who calls, they're going to find from any state, they're going to find help. They're going to find the right people to talk to, I think, and I might get in trouble with Trent, but maybe it's not all 50 states yet, but I'm sure it's staying close, so.

Gabe D. Pinilla:
We're getting there. We're not quite there, but we are international now, as I think you know, and I wanted to just add. It's really cool being a part of Cotney and being in multiple jurisdictions, seeing how there are different needs for different clients in those states. So the Florida roofing experience is vastly different than the Colorado roofers experience, even though a lot of it is disaster and storm oriented here in the Denver area and in Colorado at large, you have hail as the big issue where, which is also can come with wind issues, but in Florida, as you know, we have hurricanes. And so it's wind storm and cyclone central, but it's of a tropical nature. And those environmental distinctions make a difference in how you run your roofing business and the legal aspects and the legal issues that you're going to face as a roofer.

Heidi Ellsworth:
That's so true. And I mean, and even think about from Hawaii to Colorado, to Maryland, to Florida, I mean, you're right. It's different weather, different people, different laws, different regulatory issues. So it's great when you can have that experience across the board where you all can see like... and even sometimes being able to take ideas from other places and maybe bring them in because there's... contractors love to learn from each other. So it really works, but I want to talk just a little bit about 2020. And I know everybody's like, "Is it over yet? Are we done?" But I just think in 2020 there was just so much, and the Cotney team of lawyers have taken such a thought leadership in the industry to really help contractors. I mean, I talked to contractor after contractor. They're like, they saved me with my essential worker paperwork and all of that. So let's Ryan, let's start with you. What are some of the things that you're seeing that you've seen in 2020 and that are changing now and that maybe contractors should be aware of going into 20 21?

Ryan K. Markham:
Yeah. I'm talking to a lot of our clients. A lot of them have had to learn how to implement new technologies that they had never used before. For example, Zoom and GoToMeeting and all these different meeting platforms because different ordinances, whether it be state or county is limiting the amount of workers who can be together in an office setting. So, use of technology has definitely been big. I think also another thing that our clients are telling us is that they're having to work around or figure out ways to deal with the virus itself, controlling it from spreading within their workforce and also working to limit exposure for potential clients. And to that end, we developed a waiver that we use here in the Denver office, which our clients can provide to customers and let them know, COVID-19 is an issue. We're going to do everything we can to protect you and our workers, but should there be some exposure, there's not the liability there. And other states have enacted this liability shield. Unfortunately, Colorado has not, so we're providing that to our clients right now, a waiver for them. Sorry.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. Wow. That's cool. Gabe, I know you just having come from Florida in the midst of all of this, and now really working with all the contractors in Denver and West coast overall, what are you seeing on COVID? And I'm curious on, and then we aren't even there yet, but we have this vaccination coming out, what are some of the things that contractors should be thinking about going into 2021?

Gabe D. Pinilla:
So, COVID is the dominating feature of 2020, and it impacted people and businesses in ways that nobody could have imagined. Our firm has been on the forefront trying to keep people informed. A lot of free information available on our website and even more cutting edge information available to our clients through our resources online. Obviously safety is a huge part of what we do with OSHA. And Ryan had a great article about OSHA as it relates to COVID for roofers here in Colorado and Denver, that everybody in roofing and Colorado should check out. But I think it's beneficial to anybody in roofing across the country, because it does touch on OSHA overall. But you took the words right out of my mouth when it comes to the vaccine, because COVID is going to continue to be a dominating theme into 2021.
At least we know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, but the vaccine is going to create a whole host of new ground shifting questions to think about and issues that are going to have to be addressed by employers and roofers, contractors alike. So here in Colorado, there's going to be a three-phase system. I think it's going to be the model for most of the rest of the country. And you'll see that you have the first batch. In Colorado it's going to be something like 40,000 doses that come in possibly as early as this coming Sunday. I mean, that's how fast this thing is moving right now. And that's going to go on a phase one, A and B track where track A is going to be frontline healthcare workers that spend substantial close contact with COVID infected persons. That's going to also include nursing home residents and workers.
Then the B side of phase one is going to be moderately at risk healthcare workers and other types of first responders, firefighters, paramedics, police, general services, things like that. Phase two gets into high risk individuals like seniors, persons with diabetes or other high risk factors for the disease, and then critical workers such as grocery and school and childcare. Now roofing contractors and construction contractors in general, many of them have what's called a critical business designation here in Colorado. I don't yet know and I haven't seen in what I'm looking at on the legislative and government level, that that is being called as equivalent to essential businesses for phase two. But there is a possibility that we can get contractors and roofers into that phase. And then phase three, which no one expects to come earlier than the summer of 2021 is going to be general public.
What this means eventually we're going to have to get the questions that you may have started hearing about now, which is, can your employer force you to take a vaccine so that you can come to work and not have COVID as a reason to not go or to have remote, or what have you. The same will be true about customers. I think it's going to lean the other direction. So when it comes to customers versus your employer, your employer is likely to be able to insist that you take a vaccine. Now that's not decided yet, but there is some precedent for it. On their flip side, customers walking into a store can't be expected by an owner to automatically be required to disclose their personal health information, including whether or not they've been vaccinated. So there's a little bit of a double-edged sword going on there, but if employers want to be proactive about this, one of the ways to do that is by updating their safety manuals, particularly contractors updating their employee manuals and definitely staying tuned to this conversation as it plays out.
We will be, as we have been the whole time on the cutting edge of these discussions and anybody who wants to bounce ideas off or get some advice, our phone lines are always open to you.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Gabe. Wow. That is like we are right there because I'm just so happy we had this discussion today because I've been thinking about the same thing. Can people be forced into taking the vaccine? How's that going to work? As an employer, of course, I want everyone to be healthy, so I really want them to do that. So, we're going to revisit this in the new year too and I know that you'll be doing a lot of webinars and conferences out there, but we'll also have that on the coffee shop because I'm telling you, this is going to be a big deal.

Gabe D. Pinilla:
Absolutely. It's a hugely important issue that we can all see coming. It's definitely coming.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. Oh, wow. So COVID has controlled our lives this year, but what are some of the other, and I'm going to go back to you, Gabe, what are some of the other big issues that are happening right now, or that you are seeing in Denver and in Colorado overall, or even throughout the West coast and Hawaii. We'll get to Ryan too on that. I want to hear what are some of the things that contractors are worried about and that people should be aware of?

Gabe D. Pinilla:
So the COVID liability shield is a hot issue that people are concerned about, especially these days in particular in Colorado, where we have major spiking numbers of infection, and we have increasing hospital stressors and capacity issues. And unfortunately, of course, the deaths that lag behind that. And so business owners are always going to be concerned that some plaintiff's lawyers somewhere around the bend is going to find a way to make this into a lawsuit and create liability. As Ryan mentioned earlier, although the idea was floated by the legislature here in Colorado, there was no specific bill ever introduced, and maybe it doesn't need to happen on a state level, because I think right now that is being considered as part of the coronavirus relief package on the federal level. So we may see something done at the federal level, even if your individual state has not enacted any particular policy. There's some states have including Michigan, for example, that says, as long as you comply with the state and local regulations for COVID safety, then you can avail yourself of that COVID liability shield.
And I think that's the way that it should be because our business owners really shouldn't be out there trying to keep this economy going while in the back of their mind, scared that the next person that goes out, but they have no control over the situation because of the still unknown factors of how COVID spreads, that they're just going to buy themselves a lawsuit by trying to keep on plugging and keeping their business going. And in roofing, in particular, you can't just stop that industry. We are an essential industry, especially now coming into the winter. And so many states where that's an emergency situation and your roofer is on call 24/7 because when a storm hits and somebody's house opens up, they can not wait until business hours on Monday for you to answer their call. You have to be out there and it is really tantamount to a public service.
So, to all our roofers out there in the trenches, if you don't feel comfortable with your legislative solution, because there may not be one like here in Colorado, come talk to us and we will set you up with one of these COVID liability waivers. That's a big one, the phased vaccine distribution issue and everything that comes with that. That's another one that's coming down the pipe that I think is going to be important. And then I know that my roofing clients are concerned about and trying to figure out how to maximize. And so I think the thing there is stay tuned and let's figure out how roofers can get into phase two so that we can have that workforce clear, not only to keep the industry going, but also they're not posing a danger to the customers and the public at large when they go to do work.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah, definitely. Those are great and that's exactly what... being proactive. And I really... when you talk about having your safety manuals updated, having your HR and employment manuals updated. So Ryan, let's talk just a little about that. When you're really looking at like what Dave's talking about coming down the pike that you all in the Denver office are going to be dealing with, what can contractors do now proactively to hit some of these topics and make sure they're ahead of the curve?

Ryan K. Markham:
Yeah, yeah. Actually, that's a great segue into one of the other things we were talking about discussing, and that is the big push for legalization of recreational drugs we're seeing. This last election, Arizona, Montana, New Jersey, Mississippi, South Dakota, they all passed measures which legalized marijuana in some form. And so, that goes hand in hand with the employee manual situation in that just because a new substance may be legal and it would may be legal for your employees to use on their own time, doesn't mean they can use it on your job site or when they're working for you. And the analogy I give to customers and clients is that alcohol has been legal since the prohibition days ended. And just because it's legal doesn't mean you can be drinking on the job. So updating your employee manual to address the use of marijuana or other drugs that have become legalized, that it is not okay to use on the job site and to work impaired, especially, in roofing.
So many of our roofing employees are exposed to significant fall hazards, right? So if they're not on top of their game on any given day, they could become seriously injured. So that's definitely something we're talking to clients about and give the training to your supervisors to be able to see the signs of intoxication or marijuana use, and look for those things to be able to identify the hazards and if need be, pull employees from the field. Just real quick, I want to go back to this legal liability shield situation with COVID and I think in case any of our listeners are wondering, what is that? What are they talking about? The example I'll give is, if someone goes into a restaurant and they later test positive for COVID-19 and they think, "Oh, I could have got that from the restaurant," if they were to bring a legal action against the restaurant for getting them sick or exposing them to COVID-19 in a state where there's a legal liability shield for COVID-19, they couldn't bring that action.

Ryan K. Markham:
Now, as Gabe touched on earlier, we don't have that in Colorado so we've developed waivers that could help serve as a shield that, "Hey, if you get sick in my restaurant, I'm not going to sue you." And we're really fortunate. The roofers generally are not in the home. I know sometimes they have to enter the home to get into the attic, but we're fortunate and most times roofers are going to be outside. But in instances where they are interacting or close with a customer, it'd be good to have that waiver in place.

Heidi Ellsworth:
That makes a lot of sense. So I want to take this topic that we're talking about to the next step and Gabe, I know that you just did a webinar with another company. Cotney has tons of great partnerships, but you did it in Spanish. And when we're talking about COVID and the legalization of all these different drugs and, I probably said that the wrong way, but you know what I mean? And we were really looking at that, it's really important that contractors and employers are able to communicate in several languages. So what if contractors have a large Latino crew, how would you recommend from a legal side on making sure that all of this is communicated properly, or maybe it's Polish? We know we have a large Polish groups, but how do you handle all the different languages?

Gabe D. Pinilla:
That's a great question. I mean, I think it's especially critical in the roofing industry when it comes to Spanish. I know that's not universal, but it's a huge percentage of crews are not only Spanish speaking, but they're multi-generational Spanish family crews and so we see a lot of that everywhere in all the states that I practice in Florida, Colorado, and Texas in particular. And there's no easy answer. You've got to have bilingual capabilities in your business if you're going to be effectively managing a crew that's predominantly Spanish speaking only. Now sometimes you'll be able to depend on a second or a third generation crew member who may be the grandson of the guy who worked with your father, if you've got a family roofing business and you guys have been using that crew for generations and that second or third generation person has great bilingual capabilities.
And oftentimes you see this great merging in that class of crew member where they have the skill passed down from the older generations. They've also seen the business from a broader perspective. They've got the English language skills. So they're picking up some of how the business works and they're your natural crew leaders now, right? So if you have capable people in that position, then you're very blessed to have someone where you can train them and they can train everybody else, even if you are not yourself bilingual. But I think it pays to have certain essential safety documentation available in Spanish. And that's pretty common I think in the industry. You don't have to have every word of your employee and other manuals done, but you got to have your critical and particularly OSHA compliance and local regulation compliance stuff available in Spanish, posted in Spanish and English.
But bringing that to mind, I mean, we've done a couple of webinars in Spanish, myself, and some of the other lawyers at Cotney and we have a real passion and focus because I come from... my mom is Mexican. My dad is Cuban. My family before that on my dad's side is all Spanish. My grandfather was part of the construction business. He was a [foreign language 00:24:29] in Cuba. That's a guy who runs a store where you can buy a bag of nails or you can order heavy equipment. [crosstalk 00:24:35] And my family on that side was exiled from Cuba in the early sixties and they landed in Puerto Rico largely because my grandfather had a great reputation. He started out sweeping the floors of this famous [foreign language 00:24:51] Cuba when he was 15.
And at the end of it, he was vice president and I've got industry magazines with feature articles on him. And so his reputation led him to Puerto Rico where he was recruited by another similar competitor company. And he helped source parts to build the radio telescope of Arecibo, Puerto Rico, which up until two years ago was the biggest radio telescope in the world. It's actually carved out on the side of a tropical mountain in Puerto Rico. And so he was the guy who actually taught me how to hammer in a nail, how to saw wood and how to use tools. And so when I think of my personal family connection to the construction industry, that's where I'd go. And I am honored to have his name as my middle name. So it's a point of pride for me. But his was a great story of the same type of people like the second and third generation crew members that went from labor to owner or want to go.
And so my grandfather went from sweeping the floors to being an owner and a partner in this business. And it's different circumstances, but here that's a passion that is not only held by me at Cotney, but others who have similar experiences. We have other lawyers at Cotney who come from a long line of contractors who came from Spanish speaking cultures, and we are super enthusiastic about helping the next generation of roofers go from labor to owner, or to just come in and take the mantle, grab the baton and go forward. And a lot of those are Spanish speaking contractors. So we want to help that next generation of roofers. We want to be able to do so in their language that they're most comfortable with, help them up their game, keep their interests protected.
And we do that by helping them form their companies, picking an entity, working with them on their contracts, working with them on safety manuals, just like we do for any other contractor, but we're building our stats on that in the Spanish language [inaudible 00:26:50] and I am personally invested in working on some projects that will hopefully enhance that, but I know that Trent and John and some of our other partners from around the industry are making that a big focus. And I think there'll be some great big things on that front coming up in 2021.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I'm pretty big on diversity and inclusion and really taking the rich culture of roofing. I love that story Gabe, I love it. I come from a similar family of contracting and so to really be able to bring that rich history, but also to... the more talent, the greater we are at being inclusive of everyone and not letting language be a barrier, makes our industry so strong. It's so remarkable. And Ryan, I want you to continue on this theme about... I know this is a passion for both of you, of helping new companies, helping that next generation, helping whether it's coming new into the industry as entrepreneurs, or whether they're... however we're making this happen. Talk about some of the things you're doing to help startups.

Ryan K. Markham:
One of the things Gabe and I talk about it in our office a lot is helping our clients level up and giving them the tools. It's one thing to just represent them and take care of everything that needs to be taken care of for them. It's another thing to explain the process with them. This is what we're doing. This is why. This is how you can avoid a similar situation in the future. This is how things can be set up from your business standpoint to be run more effectively. And we're really fortunate at Cotney to have a lot of resources and tools within the firm to help our clients level up. One of our great resources is we have Cotney Consulting, which consults with roofing companies and other construction companies, and goes through their business processes and helps hold their hand through growth and becoming a large and very profitable company, which is really neat.
Our COO, John Kenny, as Gabe mentioned earlier, spent many, many years in the roofing industry and has in his run some of the largest roofing contractors in the country. So we're really fortunate to have John and the consulting group has resources to help our clients, like we say, level up. Gabe is too humble to mention it, but he's very fluent in Spanish, which is very helpful to our Spanish speaking clients. And a lot of times when I have Spanish speaking clients, unfortunately I have very elementary Spanish. I'm able to send them to Gabe and he can help them tremendously. But diversity inclusion you mentioned, and that's something in Hawaii clients, it's a very diverse market, ethnically and we have a lot of women owned businesses and that's really fun. It's fun to see all the participation in the marketplace and in the roofing industry. And we're certainly excited to help everyone and anyone we can to get better at running their business and do all we can for the industry.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Thank you. Well, I have been so blessed to be able to work with Trent and all of you for a number of years now. And so I was very involved and watching as the new subscription program for Cotney was launched about two years ago. And that subscription program really, I think, is one of the keys to proactive, legal and risk management, and also for new businesses starting because you can do it in such small bits. So I'm going to go to Ryan first. So Ryan, on the subscription plan, what have you been seeing with some of your contractors or just overall your thoughts on how important that risk management of really not just waiting for something to happen to think about legal?

Ryan K. Markham:
Yeah, definitely. That's a great point you bring up Heidi. As far as being proactive with your legal needs versus waiting for something to happen, being reactive. I've seen with our clients who do purchase our subscription plans, that they are more willing to just pick up the phone and call us because a lot of our plans include unlimited phone calls with Cotney. So there's no fear to rack up a bill or whatever by calling when, hey, you're already subscribing to have us on demand and call you and talk to you about whatever issue it is. And the beauty of, I think our firm is that we do have expertise in so many different areas that we can help with if there's an employment issue, if there's... it's not only just construction issues. Gabe has a tremendous background in business law and there're all kinds of transactional things we could help with as well.
So it's really neat to have. And speaking of that diverse experience and that we do have at Cotney, I've been approached by a couple clients who are looking for general counsel position. So an in-house lawyer to work with them and if you're a construction company, you're generally going to hire a construction attorney. And obviously I have nothing against construction attorneys because I am one myself, but the typical construction lawyer isn't going to be able to help you with all your HR needs, tax, bank bankruptcy, whatever other things come up when you're running your construction company. So subscribing to our services, you could actually save money from not paying an in-house counsel a full-time salary, and you can have a wide area of expertise served for your entire company, not just whatever the lawyer you wanted to bring on specialty is, if that makes sense.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. I mean, I think it's brilliant. I mean, and I really think of it as having your own general counsel that knows everything because you have all those resources. So Gabe, why don't you just, if you bring us on home and we're getting towards the end of this podcast, but why contractors should be looking at this from a risk management, like what Ryan was saying and your thoughts on that subscription, getting involved, really taking control of your legal services?

Gabe D. Pinilla:
Well, there's three dimensions to it and for me, it's a trifecta because you have the whole concept of prevention, right? They say, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Well, instead of waiting for a legal issue to blow up in your face, now you can strategize. Now you can say, "I see something coming down the road. I just wanted to call up to let you know. What do you think about this? Should I do this? Or should I do that? And what are the potential consequences, depending on which route I go." So you don't have to worry about bills surprise, because you can just pick up the phone and it's part of your package. So there's two sides to that point.
Number one is, proactivity and risk management, just like you were saying, don't wait for the problem to fester and become too big and now you're forced to call a lawyer. Now, talk to your lawyer ahead of time, solve your problem, strategize your problem, plan around your problem instead of having to react to it. And secondly, what that does for you, is it gives you predictable billing now. But it's the most important part of managing a business. It's being able to rely on and plan around what you're going to be doing now, tomorrow, the next day, next week, next month and next year.
So if you can predict the vast majority of your legal expense, not withstanding things that come out of nowhere that you can't predict, that gives you a huge advantage, because it allows you to allocate resources and make investments that you otherwise wouldn't because you have to say, "Well, I have to allocate this sort of emergency budget for legal because...," blah, blah, blah.
Well now you know what you're going to spend every month on the services that you know you use reliably. And so our subscription plans, which start at like 600 bucks, are... every single one of them gives you unlimited calls, unlimited lean, unlimited demand letters. Some of them give you unlimited collections, which is litigation. So if you've got a bunch of outstanding invoices that people are not paying on, and maybe they're not enough to invest on an hourly billing lawyer, one of our subscriptions plans could be built just for you because you don't have to worry about the hourly billing, even in litigation. But the last part about it that I love is also something that I was so proud to hear Ryan mention and that is, we love to help our clients gain sophistication, evolve and become more independent and more knowledgeable in their legal analysis of running their business.
So the more you call and make that proactive call, take advantage of the unlimited communications with your lawyer, the more you start thinking about the problems at the small stage before they get big, and then you get to see them from a legal context all the way through, the more sophisticated you get as an owner. And so that's the cherry on top for me, but primarily preventative legal analysis, predictable billing and finally you level up your game.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. I love that. And one of the things, lawyer, Hillary Morgan, who I worked with out of Florida with Cotney, one of the things she said to me too was, and I don't know if people really understand the power of the unlimited phone calls. She said, "I can build a relationship and a friendship now with our customers, with our clients, without them feeling like they're getting billed every minute through this program." And I thought, "That's brilliant," because there's nobody you want to trust and have that relationship more than with your lawyer. [crosstalk 00:36:55] And so I've been in those shoes on the other side and you're just like, okay, [inaudible 00:37:01] and hang up because you want to be done. You don't want to get billed very much. So this is brilliant. And as always, Cotney is leading the way, not just, I mean, for people out there who are listening, it's not just in on roofing or in the construction world, it's overall. This is like thought leadership, leading ways of doing business that other... you just don't find anywhere else.
So gentlemen, thank you so much. This has been a great first Cotney Around The Globe Podcast and I'm hoping to get to see you guys on the road in real life in Denver here sometime in 2021, because I just know how many great things you're doing and what the contractors are saying. They're just thrilled to have you both there. So thank you so much for being on this show today.

Gabe D. Pinilla:
Thank you, Heidi. Appreciate you love working with you and you are welcome at the Denver office anytime.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Great. I will be there.

Ryan K. Markham:
Definitely. Thanks a lot, Heidi. And thanks for all you do for the roofing industry. It's just a pleasure to be able to speak with you and see all the great things you're doing.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Ryan, thank you. Gabe, thank you. You two are just awesome. And anybody who's listening out there, please, the Denver office has their own directory on Roofer's Coffee Shop so you can go and you can learn more about Gabe and Ryan through their directory. They also write articles for us on a regular basis. We're able to get those out. So look for those on the Roofers Coffee Shop and in their directory. And most of all, be sure to listen to all the podcasts. Like I said, this is the first podcast of the Cotney Around The Globe and there's going to be a lot more, but there's also... we have podcasts every week. Please listen to them on your favorite channel and subscribe because the culture, the people like Gabe and Ryan who were part of roofing are just so awesome to support and listen to every week. So thank you for being here and have a great day.

Speaker 1:
Make sure to subscribe to our channel and leave a review. Thanks for listening. This has been Roofing Road Trips with Heidi from the rooferscoffeeshop.com.