People make roofing - PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Luke McCormack and Peter Horch of McCormack Partners. You can read the interview below, listen to the podcast or watch the recording.

Intro: Welcome to People Make Roofing a call to action led by McCormack Partners and Roofers Coffee Shop. We're tackling the industry's biggest challenges, from outdated misconceptions to the widening skills gap.

Our mission, to show the next generation the true potential of roofing, including the diverse opportunities, endless growth possibilities and a chance to make a lasting impact. Join us as we share unfiltered stories from industry professionals across North America, inspiring and guiding the future of roofing. This is People Make Roofing.

Luke McCormack: Welcome to People Make Roofing. I am Luke McCormack, CEO of McCormack Partners. And this is my host, Heidi Ellsworth. Heidi, would you like to give an introduction?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Thank you, Luke. I am so proud to be here with People Make Roofing. Thank you so much. My very first, and I am with Roofers Coffee Shop. I'm the president and also involved throughout the industry with NRCA and Roofing Alliance and several other associations. Love roofing, have been doing it for 30 years.

Luke McCormack: Thank you, Heidi. So the purpose of this campaign, I have been recruiting in the roofing industry for the past 10 years. And the values of our business is that it's profit with a purpose, and we are all about giving back. There's a lot of problems which faces our industry, but there's also a lot of great. And what we want to do is shine a light on the people that make roofing, people that are bastions of change in the community, that have a story to tell.

And we want to show our audience, parents, teachers, career guidelines counselors all the great things in roofing. From the speed of which you can move up the career ladder, to the mentors and the people you make in the industry. And also insights of real successful people within roofing, and the message that they would give to the younger generation and the rest of the industry about how we can make the industry better.
So today, Heidi has our first episode as the new co-host. So thank you so much for joining Heidi, and we have our first special guest, Peter Horch. So Peter, if you would like to introduce yourself for the audience, it would be very much appreciated.

Peter Horch: Sure. I'm Peter Horch. I own Horch Roofing. I started my business in 2003, so 21 years ago. I'm primarily focused out of Maine. We have three offices throughout the state, and we focus on steep slope roofing, so commercial and residential steep slope roofing.

Luke McCormack: Perfect. And Peter, you actually started your career in roofing at a roofer and you've now got yourself to top level as a CEO. I love that because it's not uncommon in our industry, and lots of people from out with the industry, they don't realize that there is a career path that can take you from roofer to CEO. So Heidi, if you want to start us off with the first question.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I would love to thank you so much. This is so fun to be here. And Peter, you and I have known each other for quite a while, so I love this question of what inspired you to pursue a career in roofing?

Peter Horch: I don't think anything really inspires anybody to have a career in roofing. It just starts and then you fall in love with it. I graduated high school. I didn't go to college. I went to work at a bank for a few years, which wasn't my favorite job. And so then I went to work in the trades, and I actually like roofing.

I bought a house a year ago and my fiance and I moved into it and I'm roofing it myself right now. So I love roofing. So I worked for a roofer for a couple of years and he thought that he could sell me the business, but I realized that I didn't have any money and could do it on my own. So I started my company with a pickup truck, a ladder and a compressor and a roofing gun.

Luke McCormack: Wow.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: There is so much potential in roofing. It's really crazy when you look at it, because there is ... The barriers to entry are somewhat low, but yet you can learn. There's so many resources to be able to learn, especially through what the national Roofing Contractor Association does. But what is the most rewarding part of your job right now?

Peter Horch: I mean, people are why we love life. I mean, the things don't matter at the end of the day. The experiences and who you do it with matter. And what I realized is that the roofing industry is recession proof and that everybody needs it. So we always have work. You always need a roof over your head.

And the funny thing is that the average person in America will only buy one roof in their life. So they don't know how to do it. And it's a very nerve-racking process. It's expensive. And so to help homeowners go through the process of buying a roof, and giving them the calmness that they need and the trust that they can have in my business that we're going to do it the first time, they don't have to worry. And then watching my employees and my team complete that work, that's the best part about the business is watching the customers appreciate your work and then having a great team that you work with and watching them succeed. It's all about the people.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: There's nothing more important than your home. So I love that, that you're taking care of something ... Someone's biggest treasures, really.

Luke McCormack: Amazing. And on the people aspect of it, Peter, obviously we do have a bit of a problem. We have lots of people leaving the industry due to retirement, and we don't have the same influx of young people joining the industry like we used to. For myself, I followed my father into roofing. Didn't come through the normal path. I've came through as a recruiter working on the front lines, helping companies scale.

And for the younger generation, a lot of them did, maybe just follow their fathers or their uncles or a family member into roofing. But now it seems that roofing isn't really seen as a viable career option for the younger person in academia.

It doesn't seem to be a trade which people are saying, "Go and be a roofer." And I believe there's a big disconnect in the knowledge that the influencers of where these young people will go have with what roofing can actually do for them. And from someone that's built their way up in the industry who is such an active participant in the industry, Peter, I'm keen to hear why you think that roofing isn't seen as a viable career option to the younger generation.

Peter Horch: I mean, that's a really tough question to ask. We've got a very diverse country. In multiple reasons, right? Diverse viewpoints, diverse backgrounds, cultures, all that kind of stuff. So to pinpoint that, the answer to that question I think is difficult. I think that one of the reasons is that whatever generation it was, I'm not going to point you fingers, just thought that it was better to go to college.

It was better to have a career as a white-collar employee, and not really recognizing the essentials behind the trades. A lot of people, if you go back a hundred years, were tradespeople. And they worked on buildings, they built our infrastructure and that's what they did to make a living. And it's needed. It's not like you build a building and it's ... you're good forever. That needs maintenance. And then we have a growing country. We want to grow our country.

And so, you need more buildings for that. So you have infrastructure needs. And at whatever point we said, "Hey, it's better to go in a different direction." And I feel like we're now being aware of the fact that trades are essential, but it's a slow turning ship. It's like we're trying to miss the iceberg when we've already hit it. It's too late.

We've sent that message to our younger generations that say it's better to go to college and go to white-collar work. And now we're changing our mind and saying, "Hey, we really need tradespeople and this is respectable." But it's a little bit too late. And so I think that there's a need for bringing in labor from other avenues, and trying to figure out how to fill this void.

Luke McCormack: 100%, and the shift away from academia being the be all and end all of how you build your life, build your career. People are realizing that, "Well, wait a minute, if I get into academia, more time studying, getting myself into debt. Then I'm trying to get a job. The job that I studied for, I can't get it because I have no working experience. And the lower level jobs I can't get because I'm deemed as overqualified and they think I'll leave as soon as something comes up which reflects my degree."

So these people are sort of in purgatory. And if you look at the first six years between college, university and then starting to look for a job, if you look at the level of debt that you'll be in and the level of working experience you've actually gained compared to if you got a trade, if you got into roofing, you've done an apprenticeship, you got moved up to supervisor, managerial role. At that point, you're making a really good earning.

You have so many pathways in front of you for a career where you could continue on the site, you could move into the office. You could move into a sales environment. There's so much avenues which are opened up by starting an apprenticeship. And you're a shining example of that, Peter.

You didn't go to college, you didn't go to university. You stuck with a trade, and now you're running a successful roofing firm. So for younger people who are watching this, for parents, for teachers, career guidelines councilors, if you had to give them a bit of an overview of your journey, of how you actually decided that you can do this yourself. And I would assume that you got help along the way. You've had mentors, you've had people, you've had guides. But if you were to sort of summarize that path for people, what would you say?

Peter Horch: The biggest advice I have for people is ask for advice and listen to wisdom. You don't know it all, right? Nobody does. And so out of high school, not really knowing what my path was going to be, I went to work at this bank and I worked hard. I mean, I showed up on ... I didn't work hard, let's be honest. I was a kid. I was 18 years old.

But what I did is I showed up on time, and I listened to feedback that people gave me. And I barely skated by for the first couple years, but then all of a sudden I said, "There's a career in banking." And so I got into a management program where they taught me how to manage people at 20 years old. And so this large entity, this bank was actually bought up by Bank of America, so it was a large bank, okay? And I went through these management course about how to manage people, but I realized, I didn't want to do that forever.

Okay, so I quit and I went to work for a roofer. And I was like, "Okay, let me try this for a little bit." I went to work for two years, but then I started my business. And here's a couple of things. You're absolutely right. I didn't have any debt. I had personal debt, but that was because I spent too much of money on a credit card.

But that wasn't about business or college. So when I went to work on my first job, I lied. My first job was out of a tool pouch. I saved up to buy a ladder to get on the roof. I carried every bundle up on the roof and I swung hammer. And that first job gave me $1,500. And with that $1,500, I put 500 bucks in my pocket to help pay my bills. And with $1000 dollars, I bought a compressor and a gun and a hose, no debt.

And then now the next job got ... I made more money faster because now I'm gunning on shingles. Instead of hammering them on, right? Now, picture that ball rolling down the hill, right? Then I bought my first pickup truck, because I kept having to repair the one I had because it was too old, because it was breaking down so much.

And I didn't have to go into debt. And so you keep doing those ... making those decisions. And finally what happened was that I was on the roof. I was managing people, I was overwhelmed with my business and the only thing I knew what to do was to ask for help. So I went to my bank, and I went to a consultant and I got an accountant and I said, "Anybody have any advice for me?" Because I realized that I'm a high school graduate roofer that doesn't have any experience in this.

But if you look back at that bank that taught me how to manage people, I was this close from really being able to tell roofers how to roof, how to coach them, how to train them, those types of things. So the work experience that I got out of high school helped me years later when I started my business at 25 years old. I was able to manage people fairly well.

I just needed to have the advice on how to write a handbook, how to read a P&L, how to read a balance sheet, what does cashflow mean? So those basics we call them in business were not basic to me. They were all new. But by the time I hired a consultant that taught me all those things, my business went from $125,000 in gross revenue to $750,000 in gross revenue in three years.

Luke McCormack: Wow.

Peter Horch: And when that happened, I was paying that consultant out of cash. So I didn't go into debt. But if I look back, I paid that guy $75,000. Well, what is that? That's two or three years worth of college. Well, depending on what college, maybe one year in college, right? But like $75,000. But I didn't have any debt again. So if you think about the progression of starting from scratch or starting low, I say lower into in a company, in an entry-level position of company, you build yourself up to that company.

You don't go into debt. You get experience, you get work experience, you get life experience. You have somebody who's mature that can give you coaching, and you're going to develop as, wait, a white-collar worker. Now, I don't go on the roof, right? I'm the CEO. So if you think about, "Okay, I had to spend five years on the roof, 10 years on the roof," whatever it was, swinging a hammer.

But now I've got what? The rest of my life is in executive-level leadership. And I don't have any debt. You got to go back to that. It's so logical to me that I really encourage young people to think outside the box. You don't have to be a roofer. I mean, you can go into any one of these trades. Anything that you do. If you go into the workforce, you're going to learn life experience and work experience. And that trajectory is going to be just as fast, if not faster, than going to college.

Luke McCormack: That's amazing. And Peter, I am one of the biggest advocates when it comes to coaches and mentors. I've had lots over my journey, and I'm about to start a new mentorship journey with a new coach next Thursday actually. And I'm the biggest advocate for it because it's, like, if you ask people to help, they actually will.

And you can try and figure it all out yourself, make mistakes along the way or you can benefit from someone else's knowledge, someone else's strategy who wants to give back. And I've had mentors for business operations, marketing, but I've also had a lot of people from the roofing industry that have put their arm around me and mentored me, introduced me to other people, taught me things.

And I truly believe that I wouldn't be where I am today without having the humility to ask those questions. They say that, "Ask a question, be silly for a minute or don't, be silly for a lifetime." But knowing what you know now, Peter, how important is it for young budding roofers or even business owners today to reach out to coaches and mentors to cover their blind spots and help them grow? And what type of impact has that had for you?

Peter Horch: It's priceless. There's no dollar figure you can put on this kind thing. So I go back to when I was stressed about the business, and about people and trusting that they're going to be on the roof without me on the roof with them. And if they were going to do a good job. And this coach of mine, this mentor of mine, he said, "Look, you have to take the tool belt off if you want to be a businessman. You can't wear the tool belt."

And as the company has grown, I've always heard that in the back of my head, because I realized as I'm getting into the weeds of the business. I'm calling customers, or I'm involved in whatever. It's, like, "Wait a second. No, you're putting the tool belt on. You can't grow the business and be the visionary for the company if you're in the day-to-day."

And so this little voice in the back of my head is from Jean that says, "Take the tool belt off." And every once in a while I'll be doing something and stressed out. I'm trying to catch up and it's, like, "Wait a second, am I wearing my tool belts again?" Figuratively, right?

So I also didn't think that I had time for a coach because I had to be in the business. I had to work. And what you realize is that hour or two that you spend a week with somebody and venting to them, having them have an outside perspective of your problems or your issues in your business, at any level, that is the best one or two hours you can spend. It's priceless.

And I remember the first time that I took a half a day off to go golfing. And I'm like, "I can't go on the golf course at noon and, I have to work." But I golfed with a guy who had run an insurance agency for like 30 years. And just the wisdom that was pouring out of him, not only about running business but about insurance. We all know that roofing needs lots of insurance, right? So those type of conversations. I look back and it really molded and formed the way that I was able to develop as a professional.

Luke McCormack: That is amazing, Peter. And I love that you've worked at a massive organization. You've seen how all the cogs in the machine work. You've then worked for a smaller company where you've seen the daily grit that it takes to get something off the ground. You've then had the cojones to start your own thing, and you've been able to ask other people for help along the way to get to where you are today.

I think that's amazing. And I see, my father, for example, he'd done everything from ... he put in every nail to every invoice. And sadly, his own roofing business never got to where it could have been if he'd taken a step back. And I see it so often that there's guys that, they can't let go of estimating or they can't let go of project management because they feel as if, that if they don't do it, it won't be done good enough.

And my advice is always, you need to let go of that. You really do. You need to put someone else in that position so that you can take a step back and focus on the strategy of your business. And for you, Peter, when you took the tool belt off and you've now got a COO in there, you've got all your departments set up, what impact did that have for you, taking the tool belt off, having a step back and letting other people do it?

And also, what I'm looking for here, Peter, is if you're speaking to these other business owners in roofing who are not willing to delegate, who are not willing to put in their second tier management, what is the likely outcome going to be for them? And what advice would you give to those roofing business owners?

Peter Horch: So I'm going to go back to the advice that I got, again. I got tons of advice. My first coach said, "I can make you a really good roofer, and you'll make a good living. We will have probably meetings for about a month. I'll polish up some of your financial stuff, and you're good to go. If you want to be a roofer, and be on the roof your whole life, there's nothing wrong with that."

He said, "But, or I'm going to work with you to make you a business owner. Which one do you want? Which path? Because you cannot do both. And at any step along the way in growing your business, you can stop at any place and be in that spot forever. There's nothing wrong with being the key estimator in your company forever. You're not a bad business person. It's, what do you want?"

If you want to be an estimator for the rest of your life, go ahead. There's nothing wrong with that. Right? If you want the next step though, the biggest thing you have to remember is no one is going to do it as good as you. You only have your lens. You only see the world through your lens, and you do it the best, right? But what if, and this is a piece of advice I got, what if somebody did it 90% as ... to your standards, nine out of 10, that's pretty good, right? It blows baseball stats out of the water, right?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah.

Peter Horch: Nine out of 10 is pretty good, but if you expect perfection out of when you delegate something, you're never going to get it and you're going to be disappointed and you're going to revert back to, "I can do it better. I have to do it. I'll get back in the seat. I'll put the tool belt back on."

But if you think about what nine out of 10 means on a daily basis from an employee, that's a stellar employee. And if you can coach somebody to give you 90% every single day, you're going to have a great roofing company and you're not going to have to estimate every job.

So it's up to what you want to do. Don't complain about being the key estimator, right? Just embrace it. It's fine. Stay that way. It's okay. We're not judging you, but don't complain about it. If you don't want to do that anymore, then take the action, delegate that and grow the business. It's not that difficult to do.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And figure out where you want to be and where you want to go. I mean, one of the things that, Peter, has been so cool, is because of what you did and how you've grown your business, you've been able to get really involved throughout the roofing industry, especially with the National Roofing Contract Association.
And I'm just curious looking at that, when you were able to make that step and then get really involved, walk away from your ... Not walk away, step away from your business for a day and/or a week and get involved, what do you see for the future of the roofing industry? What's out there with bringing young people in? What's your hopes, looking 10, 20 years down the road?

Peter Horch: I mean, I'm really excited about it. I think that, like I mentioned earlier in this presentation, the ... Whatever switch happened years ago with trades are not a respectable industry. I think everybody now looking, trying to find a plumber, trying to find a electrician to work on your house, trying to find a builder and the expense of things. They're like, "Wait a second, this is okay, to be in the trades."

So I think that has started to shift, which is great. So the outcome, the outlook for the industry, I think, is really positive. I don't think it's going to happen overnight. But I think we give away scholarships every year to four students in the state. And we follow them in their career path.

We check in on them every year. Just see, like, "Hey, how are things going?" We're just curious. We're not trying to be your dad, but we're just curious and see if it's successful. And to see the amount of excitement, and the amount of advancement so quickly in the trades with these young people, I'm really encouraged about our future. I think it's going to be great. Will I see the full impact of the work we're doing right now in my lifetime, in my career? Maybe not, but I'm willing to put the effort in now so the next generation has the benefit of changing people's perception about the trades.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: It feels like it has. Even in the last 10 years. I don't know. It's just, there's been this tangible change that people are more interested, understanding. And I don't know if that's digital or social media. The roofing industry has decided to get out there and talk a little bit more. But yeah, it does. It feels like it changed. And as we move forward, it's going to ... Everybody's so hyper focused on it right now that I think it can only improve and get better.

Peter Horch: Yep.

Luke McCormack: Yeah, I completely agree. And I think that perhaps one of the barriers coming from parents who don't understand roofing is that they don't want their child to fall off a roof. And they may have the issue of safety, but I think collectively as an industry, you're seeing so many companies with safety at the absolute forefront of everything that they do.

And not just safety, but professionalizing the industry and showing what we are and what we stand for. Peter, I've noticed that you guys have done a lot to give back to the community. You're giving free roofs through the Rainbow Initiative. You're giving scholarships, and do you find that by delegating and having the right people in the right seats, that's what's given you the opportunity, the time to give back to your community?

Peter Horch: I don't know. I mean, I have to attribute some of that philosophy to my parents. I mean, we gave back to people when we were growing up. And so it's kind of like I have to give them the credit, because that's in my DNA, right?

Luke McCormack: Wow.

Peter Horch: And it's fun. And I think that when you do that, again, there's this battle between do I have time or do I have the money to take the time to be involved in the community or give back to people? But it is true. I mean, it sounds cliche, but what you give to someone else, you get back in multiples. And so, when you give back to your community, so many people see that. I call it a sold lead.

 It's not why we give back, but I call it a sold lead, which is when a customer calls you and they already know they're going to buy ... it's already sold, right? Because they have so much trust, or you did something for their organization or you did something for their family or their children's school that they already feel a connection to buying from you. I mean, when you have that type of thing, the business will start to grow, right?

And again, that's not the root of why we give back, but the result is we have a successful business that's very community motivated. It's ingrained in our communities. We are part of them. We give back to them. And in turn, we are multiplying our business and we're growing it. So there's a benefit to us all. So it feels like a family here at Porch Roofing. We spend time together outside of work. We have picnics, and parties and events. And we give out prizes and all that kind of stuff on a monthly basis during our safety meetings.

And talking about safety for a second, I mean, back in the day, yes. I will tell you, I was not in a harness ever. And I put bundles of weight on my shoulder and I went up a lap. That's how we used to do it. Nowadays, it's a different game. There's equipment and safety equipment that keep people from being hurt.

And if you are working for a reputable company that puts safety first, there really is no worry about being in danger. Back in the day, the stupid stuff I did on our roof, I would be worried too. But nowadays, we are safe. We're not going to let anybody get hurt on our job site. So it's a totally different ball game, and it's just a great business to be in.

Luke McCormack: It's amazing. Amazing, Peter and what you were saying there about the more you give, the more you get. It's called the law of reciprocity. And it's so true. The more you give to your community, to your staff and everything, the more you get back. And I believe it's a good value to live by, and it's great to see you doing that.
So last question, Peter. Collectively, as an industry, from associations, manufacturers, distributors, contractors, service providers, what I'm seeing is a collective shift and everybody acting to professionalize the image of the industry. And after all this People Make Roofing call, it ties in to our goal, which is to improve outside perceptions on our industry and to professionalize it. What message would you give to the rest of the industry about what they can do to help us on that quest to improve the image and professionalize the industry?

Peter Horch: Yeah, again, there's so many factors. There's so many different areas of our country and our world that are affected by this, right? But I think we're doing a good job. We are talking about it. That's what we have to do, and we have to keep talking about it. We have to keep broadcasting that this is a ... Trades are essential, they are necessary. And you can have a very, very successful and lucrative life when you are involved in the roofing industry or in any trades industry.

I don't want to make it roofing specific, even though that's what we do. If we can keep talking about trade schools, community colleges, anything that can get young people into the industry and have them fall in love with it, that's what you have to talk about. This is something to be proud of. When I introduce myself, still to this day, I say, "My name is Peter Horch and I'm a roofer." Because that's what I am first, right?

First, I'm a roofer. I happen to run a business. And the funny thing is, is that the reaction to some people when I say, "My name is Peter, and I'm a roofer," some people don't know what to say. They don't know how to engage. They're like, "Oh, no, if you said banker, I'd know what to say. Or if you said attorney, I could talk to you about that. But I don't even know what to say to a roofer."

They don't even ask the follow-up question, which is, "What do you do in your business?" Right? "Well, I'm the executive," right? Okay, now we can have a different conversation, because they can familiarize in themselves that. But when you say, "I'm a roofer," people don't know what to do sometimes. But I feel as though that one little thing that I'm doing is changing that person's perception of the trades.

So I'm going to keep doing it. I'm keep saying that I'm a roofer because that's what I am, and I love it. But that's what we all need to do. We need to stay messaging that this is a great industry to be in. Trades are essential to our country and to our future. And if we can continue to have that message, then it will have a positive, positive impact.

Luke McCormack: Wow.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Peter, you're amazing. I love that. That is awesome.

Luke McCormack: Yeah. That is amazing, Peter, you've come in here fired up. You really gave great message and a great representation of a successful business owner in our industry. So thank you so much, Peter. And yeah, thank you Heidi for co-host.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Thank you, Peter.

Luke McCormack: Yeah, of course.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That was a great, great, great People Make Roofing.

Luke McCormack: Thank you. Well, this is People Make Roofing. Stay tuned for our next episode, and thank you for listening.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Thank you. Have a great day.

Outro: Thanks for listening to People Make Roofing. Together with McCormack Partners and Roofers Coffee Shop, we hope to shape the future of our industry. Share this episode and keep the conversation going because people truly make roofing. Find more at rooferscoffeeshop.com.