People Make Roofing - Kyle & Campbell Thomas - PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Kyle Thomas and Campbell Thomas of Thomas Roofing . You can read the interview below, listen to the podcast or watch the recording.

Intro: Welcome to People Make Roofing, a call to action led by McCormick Partners and Roofers Coffee Shop. We're tackling the industry's biggest challenges from outdated misconceptions to the widening skills gap. Our mission, to show the next generation the true potential of roofing, including the diverse opportunities, endless growth possibilities and a chance to make a lasting impact. Join us as we share unfiltered stories from industry professionals across North America, inspiring and guiding the future of roofing. This is People Make Roofing.

Luke McCormack: Good morning. This is People Make Roofing. I am Luke McCormack, your host, CEO of Roofing Talent America.

Heidi Ellsworth: And I'm Heidi Ellsworth, President of Roofers Coffee Shop and also your co-host for People Make Roofing. We are so excited to have our guests here today, Campbell and Kyle Thomas. Hello, you two. We would love to have you introduce yourselves.

Kyle Thomas: Good morning, everybody. I'm Kyle Thomas, Vice President and part owner of Thomas Roofing here in Mobile, Alabama.

Campbell Thomas: And I am Campbell Thomas, I am Kyle's daughter-in-law and I am our estimator, our project manager here at Thomas Roofing.

Luke McCormack: Thank you for joining, guys. This will be our first ever duet on People Make Roofing, our first ever father and daughter. So, thank you so much.

As you guys know, the purpose of People Make Roofing is to shine a light on the amazing people within our industry. We want to shine a light on the career paths, the money that can get made, the advancements in the industry, but most importantly, the people that make roofing what it is. I believe that the biggest thing that we can do collectively to change the image of roofing and to bring new blood in, is to shine a light on the good folks that are already a part of the industry.

So Kyle, Campbell, thank you so much for joining us. And question number one, what inspired you to pursue a career in roofing? Now, Kyle, I'm assuming your answer will be different from Campbell's, so if you can take us away with the first answer and then Campbell's secondly, that would be great.

Kyle Thomas: Sure, like a lot of people, honestly, I didn't intentionally pursue a career in the roofing industry. I was born into it, I'm second generation contractor. My dad was a roofing contractor here. So like a lot of young folks, I grew up, went to college thinking, man, I'm way too smart to be a roofer, I'll go off and do something else. Graduated from college in the early '90s and just kind of really looked around at opportunities out there. Didn't really like a lot of them. Growing up in a family business, growing up seeing that entrepreneurial spirit work and seeing my dad, granted, work really hard but also have control of his own destiny.

So like I said, I graduated from college, had a degree in finance, kind of looked around in the marketplace, wasn't liking what I was seeing as offers, just didn't fit my personality or my lifestyle. So I moved home and joined the family business. And that's what really attracted me to it, was the entrepreneurial spirit of it and the idea that you have control of your own destiny.

Heidi Ellsworth: Campbell, what inspired you?

Campbell Thomas: Well, mine's a little different. I did of course grow up, my family is in the construction industry, we're more residential. My family of course, was building houses, so commercial was a whole other learning curve. But I originally went and went to cosmetology school and got my cosmetology license. So I actually am a licensed cosmetologist, which I still hold onto that. Never really going to use it, but after I graduated from cosmetology school, whenever it came time to looking what I actually wanted to do, I actually started looking towards working with Thomas and I wasn't supposed to be an estimator and the project manager originally, I was just supposed to be helping in the office.

Kyle Thomas: But she was too smart to leave her at that role.

Campbell Thomas: My first role, it also helps that I don't have a fear whenever it comes to being on job sites and stuff like that. So that was my first day on the job, Kyle basically told me, "You're either going to sink or swim. If you want to do it, you can grow as much as you want." And so I think I really liked how much there was to learn and there was no cap to what I could do in the roofing industry.

Luke McCormack: Wow. So from cosmetology to roofing, Campbell, that isn't something we hear too often. So when obviously you've grown up, you've got your, you're qualified in cosmetology and you've got that career path set out for you. But you've decided to come into roofing, which I would assume is different from the norm for you and your friends. But what is it, you've looked at these other industries, you've got qualified in it, but you've stayed roofing?

Campbell Thomas: I think a lot of things whenever it comes to roofing is, it also helped that I was also part of the, had already been in the Thomas family. I think that being, dating Kyle's son, at that point I was dating in Bradley, hearing about the industry. I didn't start working in the industry until I was 19, so I'd kind of heard about it some through the years. But I think a lot of people, as Kyle says, don't normally expect to be in the industry. He just kind of got into it through family. And I really, once I started working in the office and then getting in on the job sites, it wasn't something that I expected to enjoy but I love.

Heidi Ellsworth: That is such a great story because to have you come from a construction background with your family and then come in and say, "This is something that really looks where I can excel." That is so cool. So I'm going to actually start with Campbell, and then we'll go to Kyle on this question, so we're going to go opposite. So Campbell, what is the most rewarding about your job now and what you're doing? What's the most rewarding thing?

Campbell Thomas: I think as the years have gone and I've been put into the estimator and project manager role more, I have really enjoyed talking to our customers and our clients and really seeing the quality and how they continue to keep on calling us because of the quality of work that we're providing them. But I also really think it's rewarding whenever it comes to the estimating, there is a very big creative aspect to it and there's a lot of projects I'm given that some people just can't figure out how to adjust, fix this situation. So there's a lot of creativity into handling some of these situations on the especially flat roofs, which is what I mainly deal with.

Heidi Ellsworth: Kind of a puzzle, a problem solver. Yeah, and I love that. Kyle, what's the most rewarding about your career in roofing so far?

Kyle Thomas: My answer is really going to be quite similar to Campbell's. When I look at trying to boil down the most rewarding aspect of the job for me, it's the problem solving. It's the idea that people are calling us with a problem and we're here to help, we solve their problems for them. So there's a lot of other rewarding aspects of watching my people grow, watching someone like Campbell join the industry and mentoring them up and seeing what we can do. There's a lot of rewarding aspects of watching your people grow, watching young folks move from field roles to management roles, superintendent roles and all that. So it's a blend for me of internally watching what my people can do when we give them the opportunity and give them the space to work with their creativity and their intelligence and their work ethic and grow their own lives. But also, I find it pretty rewarding that we're here and have been here for so many years to solve customers' problems.

And so you wake up in the morning and you go to work and yes, it's the same thing, but it's not. There's another owner out there with a problem, there's another building out there with some weird thing you've never seen before. So like her, I like the creativity aspect of it. It's a lot of number crunching, so you don't really think of an estimator being creative. Right? You think of an estimator as spreadsheets and numbers and math, but there's a lot of creativity in what we do and how we solve the problems.

Luke McCormack: [inaudible 00:08:51]. So Kyle, I love that you've been able to mentor and bring Campbell up within the business and I think for more new people to join our industry, we need to be doing that. We need to be mentoring, we need to be guiding. I feel that back in the day, people would follow their father into roofing, that's what I'd done. And now we've got a new generation, they're retiring and there isn't too much new blood coming in. Why do you think that roofing is not seen as a career opportunity to young people today?

Campbell Thomas: I think that a lot of it is still the perception of it. The perception of there's not much growth in the industry. Depending on where you start, not a lot of roofers have to have education. So I think a lot of it though is it's physically demanding. There's times where it's weather. So I think there's a lot of the perception that plays into it whenever it comes to the new generation.

Luke McCormack: 100%, and do you feel that the majority of not just the younger generation, but everyone outside the world of roofing, when they think about being in roofing, they think doing an apprenticeship, being in roofer, then a foreman, [inaudible 00:10:16] moving up the career ladder, but that's not the only way you can join the industry. So, can you tell us a bit about your entry to the industry, Campbell, that you didn't start actually applying shingles, you actually started within the office? Because I don't think too many people are aware of that, that you can start immediately in the office. A lot of people think you need to go and put that time in on the site first before you can move to the office. So if you could shed some light on that for our audience that don't really know about how they can get into roofing, then that would be great.

Campbell Thomas: I think for me, I was very lucky to have a company and the family who was very open to me trying everything that I was willing to try. There was no cap to what I was allowed, was or could or couldn't do. Whenever I first started there, Kyle immediately had me starting to look at plans. Now, I could understand plans some here and there, but over time I just had to figure out how to learn how to read plans. But whenever it came to estimating and all that, in the beginning, whenever I first started working at Thomas, Kyle just had me basically just living on job sites. I was just hanging out with the guys, watching roofs being installed, because what better way to learn the industry than to watch the industry? So I was out there and the guys were letting me install. I was sitting there just learning about the guys, learning about what they thought about the career that they were in and just I think doing that early on also grabbed me really and made me want to stay in it really early on.

Kyle Thomas: I think it's one of the great things about the industry too, is that every contractor that I know and I know a lot across the area, across the country, we don't really care what someone's background is or where they come from or any of those things. It's, we'll take anyone that's willing to work and grow and we will help them get there because we need it. As you've said, there's a skills gap in this industry, we're all looking for qualified people. So like Campbell mentioned early on, we brought her in and the original intent was basically be like an admin assistant, but we recognize pretty quickly the potential there. And it's like, wait a minute, she's got way more value than to hold her into that role, let's let her go and see what she can do with it. So, and I think that's really common in the industry and it's not well known.

So back to the basis of the question, why is it seen as a viable option? I think it's just, we are an industry with fantastic stories, but we are not an industry of fantastic storytellers. We have incredible stories, we have great examples like Campbell, they're everywhere honestly, they're all across our industry, but we don't do a great job of telling the story. So the average mom and dad, if their teenage child says, "I want to be a roofer," their first impression is some beat up old pickup truck and a tough, hard, ugly job.

Campbell Thomas: So when it comes to the female aspect of it, also growing a family, being in the industry as well, having to think about that and take that into account that some of these people also think, well, I would like to start a family and how can I also do that being in this industry?

Heidi Ellsworth: But you can.

Kyle Thomas: Absolutely, you can.

Campbell Thomas: Yeah, I was climbing ladders with my daughter until I was nine months pregnant. The guys were trying to decide [inaudible 00:13:48] how long I was going to stay on the roofs for.

Heidi Ellsworth: I have to tell you, Campbell, I had our youngest on a backpack up on a roof taking pictures and same thing. I think that's the beauty of this industry, is that it is so family oriented and people don't know it. And Kyle, I agree with you 100%, we do not. And I mean, that's our job, is to tell those stories and we still, there's so much that we haven't told yet and as an industry, once people get into it, they're just like, this is the greatest place. Why haven't I always been here?

Kyle Thomas: The joke is always, once you get in the roofing business, you don't ever leave it. It's too full of fun people, to be honest.

Heidi Ellsworth: It is.

Luke McCormack: Just on that, Kyle. So when you look at the betterment of the industry, the professionalizing of the industry, the marketing, the careers that exist in the industry, I'm a recruiter and Heidi is a marketer. Now, when you look at who should be doing this, is it the associations? Is it the contractors? Is it the manufacturers? Is it academia? Who should be pushing this forward, and what do we do as an industry to get these stories out there? And to not just young people, people from other industries and not just them, but the people that influence where people will go next. So teachers, parents, career, guidance counselors, how do we get the message to those people, Kyle?

Kyle Thomas: That's a fantastic question. Well, obviously not an easy one to answer. We'd have already done it, right? But I think it takes all of us. I do think we're seeing a lot of movement in the last five, six, seven, eight years, we're seeing some societal shifts where a lot of young people and parents are realizing maybe four-year college is not the only path for young people to have a career. So they're more open and willing to listen to trade school discussions, being willing to go into trade school. So I think it's really incumbent upon all of us in the industry, every level from distributors, manufacturers, recruiters, contractors.

Like I said, we all have good stories to tell. I think it's being willing to get out there and tell the story. Not all of us are comfortable going out and trying to. You don't want to be boastful, right? So it's not like, you're not trying to be boastful and brag about it, but you also want to open the eyes to these young folks that there really is a fantastic career here and you can make a lot of money in this business. You don't have to have seven years of college and a PhD to make over $100,000 in the roofing business. It's not like that. We take folks that have graduated high school or not even graduated from high school, and the next thing you know they're 15, 20 year roofers that are making a very good living. So I think it's incumbent on every level of the industry to start telling that story.

Luke McCormack: [inaudible 00:16:58], and Kyle, I mean, you're doing it. You're bringing the family up the career ladder, they're getting front of the camera, you're vocal when you get the opportunity. What advice would you give to other companies in the industry about what they can do to help us push the industry forward?

Kyle Thomas: I think one of the biggest things that I see, and I do see the movement and I see the associations making progress in this, is, get in front of the career in technical education schools. Get in front of the CTE schools and be willing to offer time that a lot of those trade schools, honestly, they're looking for content if we can... And we have a lot of content out there available. So my advice is, identify some local trade schools and go visit with them, go talk to them, go teach. Even if just doing a once a semester class, start introducing roofing to that. We've done it in the construction management programs. We've started doing that, we're in our 11th year now of doing that with the student competition and stuff. So we're more present in that realm than we are in the trade schools, but we're making a lot of progress right now. So my advice would be find a local trade school, reach out to the NRCA, get some of the support documentation and the stuff that we have, we have curriculum ready to go and be present.

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah. I have a question for Campbell that is along the same lines. But Campbell, for the young people out there who are looking for that career, going from cosmetology to roofing, but who are looking for careers, what's your advice? Not just to other young people, but I'm really interested in your advice to other roofing business owners on how to find Campbells, how to be open to finding this kind of talent like Kyle has done with saying, "Hey, we see how brilliant you are, go that direction." What would you say to other companies?

Campbell Thomas: I think a lot of it, whenever it comes to as a female if I was looking for a company, I think a lot of it is the values that a company has. So, what are the family values that a company has? What is the willingness of growth and how open minded are they?

Heidi Ellsworth: Because it seems like a lot of times, people, we always are thinking the older generation mentoring the younger generation, but in my mind there is just as much mentoring that goes on from the younger generation to some of us older folks out there. And so I think that's really important, just like what values, people, the culture of the company and what is that all? Kyle, what do you see in all of that with that?

Kyle Thomas: Oh, basically, I just agree. I think that we are an industry of a lot of small, family run businesses, so our employees become our family as well. Most of us, the roofing industry is still a small, fragmented industry. There are a few really big ones out there, but a lot of us are small family run businesses. And so I think if you can convey that culture to future employees or potential employees to recognize that once you join our team, you join our family.

Campbell Thomas: Because in the industry, I'm never, of course, the company, the Kyle Thomas has always been amazing and accepting as being a female. But there are still companies out there that as soon as they see a female, they automatically just expect that I am not the one that's estimating the project. They weren't talking to me, they were talking to a Mr. Thomas, that I wasn't the one that was writing the specs for them or doing any of that. It wasn't me.

Luke McCormack: So when we look at the future of the industry, there's obviously a lot of changes. There's private equity all over the industry. There's roll-ups, there's mergers, there's expansion, there's new technology coming in. Market seems to be growing, but this problem, this big gaping hole of people still just seems to be bigger and bigger. What's the view that you guys hold on the future of the industry, be it for people's careers, for the success of businesses and just overall economic stability of roofing?

Campbell Thomas: I think playing off what Kyle said earlier, I think one of the biggest things that needs to happen is that we need to make sure that we get roofing into trade schools and in front of students earlier, so that they can start that up as a career option and already starting to decide early on if that's a path that they want to go. Because right now there's not much opportunity in trade schools or schools to learn about the roofing industry.

Luke McCormack: 100%. I think historically, academia has turned its nose up against construction and roofing, but with the NRCA, the Roofing Alliance, Clemson University, it seems that the industry's taking some really, really big steps and pushing that forward. I know there's a lot more coming out over the next few years through the Alliance and Clemson, so hopefully there'll be more seeds planted and they'll be blossoming over the next few years and hopefully that will continues to bring more blood in.

Campbell Thomas: Well, whenever it comes to the industry, a lot of people are learning as they come into the industry. And could you imagine how much better the industry would be if a lot of these people have learned before they were even in it?

Luke McCormack: Oh yeah, 100%, yeah. The value that a resume has, if someone is looking for someone to start from the bottom, if they've even had six months exposure to the industry, how much that propels them from no experience, it really does make a massive impact. So, definitely saving that one, Campbell.

Kyle Thomas: Yeah, yeah. I think looking to the future, like you say, there has been a lot of private equity and mergers affecting our industry. I don't know what that story will be in the long run. For a lot of people it's just opportunity. I don't want to say it's a bad thing, it's just a change, it's a little bit new to the industry. I think there's still a lot of room in our industry for technological advancements, so there's still going to be a lot of advancements in technology.

There's going to be things like automation that are affecting other industries will affect our industry. But on the flip side, there's still a huge amount of what we do that has to just be done by manpower. It's going to take people on the roof to do. So-

Campbell Thomas: Well, they've mentioned drones doing inspections, but there's only so much a drone can inspect, aerial wise.

Kyle Thomas: Right, right. So even with the automation that's going to help, there's still going to be a ton of jobs in the roofing industry. It kind of goes back to the answer to question two, is what's rewarding? It's solving people's problems. There is always going to be roofing problems, guys. There will always be roofing problems. There's always going to be roofs that are going to be needed, and that means there's always going to be jobs in the roofing industry. So, I think it's bright.

Heidi Ellsworth: I do too, and just my mind is kind of whirling with a comment earlier and I'd love to end with a future look on this comment and Campbell, it was the perception of women in construction and that we still have a little ways to go on people accepting women in all the roles across the board, from owners, to estimators, to project managers, to being on the roof. What's kind of your view as you talk to some of these folks who all of a sudden realize that you're a female, and what's some of the future there? What kind of hopes do you have for women in the construction going forward and in roofing?

Campbell Thomas: I think there have been a few times where it hasn't been very promising, but for the most part, what I run into are people that are willing and open to females coming in the industry. They don't see me as a female, they just see me as someone bringing knowledge to the table and having knowledge to fix their issues that they haven't found a way to fix. And sometimes it takes a female eye to find some creative way.

Kyle Thomas: Little stab there.

Heidi Ellsworth: I love it, I love it. You two, wow, what a powerhouse. This has just been so amazing, and thank you. I'm excited. Campbell, I don't think we've met, but I can't wait for the next show when we can sit down and visit more. You are definitely the future of the industry, it's so great to have you today.

Kyle Thomas: Absolutely. The future's in good hands.

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah, yeah. The future's in good hands.

Luke McCormack: Well, thank you so much for joining, guys. We appreciate it and we will see you soon.

Kyle Thomas: Thanks for having us.

Campbell Thomas: Thank you.

Heidi Ellsworth: Be sure to watch People Make Roofing episodes and shorts on both Roofer's Coffee Shop, YouTube and on Roofing Talent America LinkedIn or on Luke McCormack's LinkedIn. You can find us in many places. Thank you so much, and thank you Kyle and Campbell for being with us. And thank you, Luke. We'll see you next time.

Luke McCormack: See you. Bye.

Outro: Thanks for listening to People Make Roofing. Together with McCormack Partners and Roofer's Coffee Shop, we hope to shape the future of our industry. Share this episode and keep the conversation going, because people truly make roofing. Find more at RoofersCoffeeShop.com.