Pat Muhs - An Educated Homeowner is a Contractor's Best Asset - PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Pat Muhs here from Muhs Roofing. You can read the interview below or listen to the podcast.

Intro: Welcome to another Roofing Road Trips from Roofers Coffee Shop. This is Heidi Ellsworth and we are here today to talk about one of the most important topics, actually two of the most important topics in roofing today and that is sales and technology. And when they go together, look out. And when you add some education to that, that's what we're really gonna be talking about today. And I am so excited to have Pat Muhs here from Muhs Roofing.

Hello, Pat, welcome to the show. Welcome to Roofing Road Trips. I love this topic, I love sales, I love technology. You and I are gonna have so much fun for the next 30 minutes.

Patrick Muhs: All right, well thank you. I appreciate you having me on.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Can you introduce yourself? And I would love you to talk about all of your companies. Give us a little history. Kind of take us through that.

Patrick Muhs: Well, so Patrick Muhs, we're a roofing operation mostly out of Omaha, Nebraska. I've done this and I've been in this industry, you know, off and on ever since I've been a very young person. think my mom's got a picture of me working on a roof when I was 10 years old. And so, so I've been in the construction space, you know, as long as I can remember. And my dad was a contractor.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I love it.

Patrick Muhs: And I grew up in that business. Eventually just kind of ended up migrating to the roof and then kind of out of my dad's business as my, you know, I started traveling around, going to college and that sort of thing. And so my summertime jobs evolved into bigger and bigger construction companies. And, and I've always loved the roofing space and was inspired and through a very long chain of events because I had a couple of jobs along the way after I graduated from Scott. School for college and ended up you know when I didn't think that it was going to happen ended up back in the the roofing space owning a big roofing company so

Heidi J. Ellsworth: You. It happens to so many people.

Patrick Muhs: Yes, indeed. And I've done everything wrong at least twice, succeeded fantastically, failed miserably and started all over again once. And so it's been a tremendous journey. There was a little bit of a stint in there in the middle, working for an insurance company as an adjuster.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: No.

Patrick Muhs: And one as an auditor for another company for a few years. And so I gained a lot of insurance industry perspective that has certainly helped us grow our roofing business. And then we end up here where we are today talking about the Muhs roofing operation and its relationship with Sales Assist, which is our, the automated or excuse me.

3D animations or 2D animations that explain very complicated roofing process. Are we gonna edit at all this? Okay, cool, all right. I'm gonna start over with that. Yeah, so that brings us to where we are today with Muhs Roofing and our relationship with Sales Assist, which is a, why am I choking on this? Yeah, it's an app.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yes, we're gonna edit that. So if you want to start over, that's perfect. Just take a breath and give a little bit of silence and start over.

Patrick Muhs: For our 3D animations, showing the roofing process. Yeah. Okay. So that brings us to where we are today with Muhs Roofing and with our relationship with Sales Assist, which is an app that does 3D animations that explains some very complicated roofing processes whereby sales people would typically be sitting at somebody's dining room table. And scratching their drawings, trying to explain how something works for a roofing assembly or for the process and to convey some very complicated and convoluted at times concepts to homeowners. And we're not all artists and we're not all good at doing tremendously detailed presentations. And so we put all that into a can to give people an opportunity to utilize. These tremendous animations that explain our process in detail.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: You know, I love and I mean, I've watched this over decades, right? But today especially, the collaboration between roofing professionals. And technology developers, right? them coming together and finding that space to really understanding a need in roofing that technology can fit. talk just a little bit about, because a lot of this was your vision and you had seen this happening, talk a little bit about that, Pat, of how you took this need that you saw for your own business and worked with people to kind of bring together this 3D animation to help explain roofing.

Patrick Muhs: Right. Bread.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Basically.

Patrick Muhs: Yeah, so you alluded to the idea in the last 20 years. Let me first preface this whole thing by saying I am not a developer. I'm not the guy who put this all together. I don't know technology to save my tail. so this was indeed an idea from back in the 1990s and early 2000s, where I would draw pictures. I've always understood the concept that it's not what you do, but what you duplicate that makes you successful. And then of course, In today's age, we all realize that it's not even what you do or what you duplicate or what you can automate that creates success in a business, right? And so way back in the 1990s or early 2000s, I was recognizing a need for all the knowledge that I had gained by having done this ever since I was a little kid. How do I convey that to our employees? And I've always come from the production side. That's my background in this industry. I know how to fix things and I know how to build stuff.

Hence the reason why I've succeeded and failed so many times on the business side of things, because I'm learning that as I go, right? But we started out way back when on a large project that we were working on for a tracked home builder. And I was drawing these diagrams and making books and kind of to collaborate with the information that was available to us from NRCA and it's... and the installation manuals for different products and that sort of thing, that it was honing in on very, very specific roof assembly detail that we needed to be able to train time and time again to our production staff. And over the years, that evolved into flip books and all kinds of different apps. We started making video. Of me demonstrating some of the more complicated concepts, both for commercial roofing and for residential. But then there's all the background noise and there's all of the filtering, there's bad lighting. And then if you get into situations where there's production, well, the higher the production value, of course, the better the quality of your video, but then you've also got tremendous expense. And then if you're going to change anything about a process, you've got to start the video thing all over again.

And so the advent of these 3D animations that we've got, you know, our artists that are rendering right here in our own backyard, when we come with concept and then there's gotta be amendments or changes or adaptations to certain things, that's done so much more easily. You know, I ran into somebody at a trade show who had developed an incredible video to demonstrate her product. And I noticed, because I'm a detail guy,

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah.

Patrick Muhs: It's like, hey, the thing that's in that video that you're showing isn't like what you've got here at the show. And she's like, yeah, you know, we made a, we made an evolution in the product, but the production value is so high on this, that it's like it would have cost us 50 grand in six months in order to get a new video out. So we just have to show the video on the old one and sell the new one kind of thing, right? We don't have to do that. And so going back to where this began to evolve,

Heidi J. Ellsworth: My.

Patrick Muhs: We were drawing pictures, we were doing the flip book, we were supplementing with all of the industry stuff that's available. And I've got children that are grown and both of them at times worked within the company. And I really started to notice that my kids weren't interested in reading manuals and going through big flip charts and spending hours and hours reading instructions on things. They just want to watch a simple video. And that was how we got into making the videos of the... the, you know, interpretation of how things needed to go so that the moose way of doing things was being upheld and being, you know, produced all across, you know, every job and with every one of our employees. But as I said before, the production value was so difficult. There's squirrels running across the background, you know, there's days when it's windy. And again, if you have to reproduce something, you got to shoot the whole scene all over again.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: You

Patrick Muhs: And so we kind of abandoned that. then with one of our people here in the company who had a tremendous skill for creative and for development and for artists, the artist part of this, we're like, we can animate these videos. And one of the key elements that even though we were shooting video and I was explaining how things worked and I'm pretty good at teaching stuff, I still had to stand on the roof. And demonstrate, for instance, if I was talking about ventilation, I had to try to convey to my audience through video somehow that air intake brings the flow underneath the eave, through the attic space and out the exhaust vent at the top. And I'm up there throwing my hands around and trying to show by pointing towards parts of the roof and that sort of thing. And it still was really difficult.

When you use a video animation, you can just fly the whole roofing assembly and the deck away and show what it looks like when I'm trying to demonstrate what airflow looks like coming in through a soffit vent, traveling through the attic space in order to maintain that ambient air quality inside the attic, the same as it is outside and then going out through an exhaust vent. You can show all of that with 3D animations.

And it's such a spectacular presentation that we're cutting down the amount of time that we spend at that dining room table. And we're not missing our customer. We're not missing the concept because no matter how good of a fast artist I am, if I'm trying to draw something on the kitchen table, the perspective is going to be crazy and they still have a tough time understanding it. Whereas these 3D animations, we've perfected.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah.

Patrick Muhs: We've gotten feedback from both the field and from our customers about how well this conveys the ideas. And so, and how we got there, again, this is an interesting part of the story. I just wanted to use it for training our staff, for our production people. And then the production people, in communicating with the salespeople of our organization said, well, gosh, wouldn't this be a great idea if the salespeople learned

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah.

Patrick Muhs: While they're going through their training from the same instruction media that we're using to train our production staff. That way what these folks are selling is the same thing that our guys are producing in the field. And that that evolution took us to one of the sales guys going like, why wouldn't we just take this thing in and show the homeowner what we do? And when we do that, we're not missing on creating that expectation from the homeowner of exactly what they're going to get for what they're paying for, right?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, I

Patrick Muhs: So it all kind

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Love it.

Patrick Muhs: of happened by accident.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That is, again, it goes back to that seeing a need from training your own people to the sales people to the customer, it makes so much sense. So okay, I wanna come back to that. I wanna come back to on that.

That finding the need with technology and really what that solution is. But before we get there, I want to kind of set some groundwork with your experience because you have tons and you've seen this. So let's talk a little bit about successful contractor and homeowner relationships and how education really is crucial to that successful relationship.

Patrick Muhs: Right? Yeah. So, educating a homeowner, we do a lot of work in the insurance space. So we've always recognized the need to make sure that our customers understand how a particular process works, both from the aspect of how to handle an insurance claim, but in the context of what we're talking about with Sales Assist, about what we actually need to do to do the fix for whatever is broken, whatever is not working or wasn't.

You know, oftentimes, believe it or not, it wasn't constructed correctly in the first place. And so that need to educate the homeowner and be able to properly convey exactly what our construction process is, what's our proposal? What is our unique value proposition that we're bringing to the homeowner about why would they hire us in the first place? And having the ability to set ourselves apart from. You know, from the guy who sits at the kitchen table and tries to draw something on the back of a napkin or on the back of his notebook or her pitch book, where to explain a difficult process, something that's hard for a homeowner to understand. we're giving them that education about the true process of the materials used, the protocol that's followed to get the work done properly and what their expectation of, what does done look like, right?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah.

Patrick Muhs: What are you going to have when this is all complete?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: You know, sorry, I just gotta say one thing in there because you said, you know, them writing on a napkin or on the back of the pitch book or something like that. But, and you hear, I'm not saying this is norm, but you hear these horror stories out there of salespeople coming in and selling roofing and not even talking about that stuff. Not even educating at all. And then you have a homeowner who's just kind of lost.

Patrick Muhs: Right. You're right, right. Yeah, you've got, it's really hard to meet the finished product to the expectation if the customer didn't know what they were buying in the first place. And look, when it comes to roofing and the elements that are associated with that, these projects can get to be really, really expensive. And so, to... have an expectation unmet by the homeowner, by having a, unmet by the contractor in the eyes of the homeowner to have a disappointed customer is a really expensive endeavor. It takes a long time to get paid. You've got corrections and change orders at times when they say, well, that wasn't what I envisioned at all. That's not how I thought we were doing this. And then having to go back and make changes is a bit of a challenge, right? And it's a very expensive endeavor. And when we started seeing,

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Right.

Patrick Muhs: I mean, like I could talk about how sales assist just by the nature of being the person in there that brings technology to the homeowner that explains the process thoroughly, that creates an expectation that is actually able to be met, that our close rates and the satisfaction rates and the rating of our reviews and that sort of thing, all that stuff increased, which was.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Mm-hmm.

Patrick Muhs: You know, a byproduct, but it was certainly what we were after. But then we also noticed, and again, I talk about so many things that happened by accident, Heidi and that is, is that we started recognizing that by, sales assist is a pretty cool program, a pretty neat and a robust system where we can actually build custom videos out of little clips of again, the nature of this thing is.

3D animations that explain complicated process in the roofing space, right? And we can create clips, like for instance, if somebody has a skylight on their house, we can use the videos that we've created, these 3D animations, we can use in our custom video that we make for the homeowner, the part of the clip that explains how a skylight's installed and all the nuance involved in that sort of thing. If they don't have a skylight, we can leave that part out of the custom video.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Mm-hmm.

Patrick Muhs: So one of the inherent outcomes, if you will, of what we discovered, not only of having a better or a closer met expectation with the homeowner, but we started seeing some consistency in training and in the expectation of our sales staff and the leadership within. Where the guys were starting to practice, they're at least running through this thing one time when they're setting up the custom video. And there's some other integrations that we're involved with that we utilize when we go out and make a demo, you do our demo, make a presentation to a homeowner. When you're preparing the video clips, the custom video for the homeowner, you're actually running through your pitch once before you go out there and talk to the homeowner. What a novel concept that we would actually.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah.

Patrick Muhs: Practice before we go to the game, right? And then we started learning some best practices from one another because we're creating these videos, we're going through the pitch, we're doing our thing. And then you have one salesman learning from another. It's like, hey, I'm experiencing a lot of success or I'm having a lot of difficulty with X, Y or Z element of this whole process. like, man, I figured that out a long time ago. You know, this is what I do with mine.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Right.

Patrick Muhs: And so we've got standardization within our training, which, know, there's so many different programs that are out there that you go to a seminar someplace, whether it's, you know, the International Roofing Expo or perhaps the NRCA or MRCA or, you know, there's something that you go watch and you got a guru that stands up on the stage and goes like, hey, you need to abandon all the dumb stuff that you've been doing your entire life. And you just need to buy my program and it costs you $60,000 a year, but I'm going to make you successful. And most people, I think that we're a lot of cowboys in this space, in the roofing industry, we're kind of independent. We kind of like to do our own thing. We're like, I don't want to abandon my process. I don't want to do things a lot differently than what I've been doing. And some of that's silly. And some of it is actually very practical because every time you do anything, you have to think about implementation, right?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: You Right.

Patrick Muhs: So all the things that we've learned about our experiences that we've had with Sales Assist, what we also discovered that was an incredible inherent value to this is that I'm not asking anybody in the industry to change the way they do things. We're simply trying to enhance one simple element of what you do while you're meeting with the homeowner to help convey how you do what you do that makes you a better choice when there's 12 other people knocking on a door and saying like, hey, we'd like to do your roof. Well, if all you're doing is dropping off an estimate, how is a person gonna decide besides price? When we utilize the assets available to us in our training program and our sales assist properties, we go through all of this and we're able to more easily convey that unique value proposition that we present to the homeowner, whether it might be changing, fixing a couple of things that would make that product and that process.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Right?

Patrick Muhs: Work so much better. And we're finding that that's the reason why our close rate has gone up is simply because we're one of, you know, two, three, four, five, maybe six people a homeowner talks to. And if we're the only ones that do a professional presentation, we didn't just drop an estimate off at the door. Well, we stand out amongst the crowd.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, you know, that makes so much sense to me. I mean, it's about that competitiveness, but it's also about really doing what's right for the customer. And I kind of want to talk a little bit about the downstream of what this does for a business because we all know for a lot of contractors out there, referrals are their number one lead source, right? so, and certainly the best. And so,

Patrick Muhs: That's right. They're certainly the best.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Bye. Educating using these kind of videos, this animation and educating not only your employees, obviously your sales team, which are part of your employees, but then also with your crews and then to the customers. It seems to me like that is something that homeowners are going to share with other homeowners or with other business owners is that I saw this, I know exactly. Have you asked this question? Do you know what's going on? I've seen it exactly. And that's exactly what went through my whole entire process of that re-roof. Talk a little bit about that, that word of mouth, that referral potential with this kind of software.

Patrick Muhs: Right, well, I don't think that any of us would be able to avoid that subject, that topic of the roofing space, the people, those of us who are contractors in it have at times earned a reputation for being a little bit flying by the seat of our pants, right? And so, yeah, you're absolutely right. Homeowners talk, business owners compare notes.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Ha!

Patrick Muhs: And they're saying, hey, you who are you using? What are you going on over at your place? And he's like, and so a scenario would be a homeowner saying, man, you're not gonna believe what I just saw when I was talking to these guys. They have this amazing program that explains exactly how everything works in relation to my project for my house. And so yeah, and that comparative analysis that they might be doing, they're gonna come up with, they're gonna be glad to recommend. To talk about what they've seen. It's kind of exciting stuff. It's interesting. It's novel. Nobody else is doing it, you know? So again, we're not changing the way that we run our business. We're just enhancing our ability to properly communicate with the homeowner and be able to present ideas that land.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah.

Yeah, you know and and you said a word there that I think we just need to call out that is so important and that's trust Right. This is something where you can visually earn the trust of homeowners or building owners and as you're doing these roofing projects and I think it's really interesting too because You know, there is something there. Okay, let's just talk a little bit of psychology But there's something there when visually you see something and then even as you're going through the process, if there's questions, they can rely back to that and say, yeah, no, we talked about this. This is exactly how ventilation works and this is what's going on. So that trust for your sales team, you know, it just seems to me that that would also take it to a whole new level of closing possibilities.

Patrick Muhs: This is how the accidents happen, Heidi. I had never thought of that before today. You just brought up something that like caused a flood of thought process going through my mind. Okay, so I think that all of us who own roofing companies, we do everything that we possibly can to create a positive image, a presentation. know, we want our salespeople, the men and women who represent our company to be clean and we want them to smell good and we want them to show up in a vehicle that has been well cared for. doesn't have to be brand new, but it's got to be well maintained because the perception, at least mine as a consumer and I expect that of my customers is that how you show up for me is how you're going to show up for my project, right? And so what you just mentioned was something that I hadn't even made a connection until just now is that, yeah, when we go in,

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Exactly.

Patrick Muhs: From the homeowner's perspective or the business owner's perspective, I would think that it would be natural for them to say, if they're going to invest this kind of time and energy and they're going to be this detailed about the way that they're presenting this project to me, I can probably count on that they're also going to be that detail oriented when it comes to the actual installation. And we talk about in our animations, we actually highlight all of the process, not just

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah.

Patrick Muhs: Something as a complicated installation process for a skylight or for a curb on a commercial project, but the way that we set up our site protection before we ever even start tearing off the roof, the kind of equipment that we use to affect the changes that we wanna make to their home. All of that stuff is highlighted in our videos. So again, the homeowner knows what to expect. Now, when you do that, you're also setting the standard that you have to uphold, right? And so there's an inherent value there too. You know, when the expectation has been set, then our guys, our gals tend to show up in the way that they present it. that's a very important point that I'm going to add that to my list of things that I talk about as far as creating that trust with the homeowner. And you know that, you know, that I'm sure you've had that same experience yourself is that what

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Right.

Patrick Muhs: How the presentation is made to you in everything, not just what you're going to do for, it's not the color of the shingles or the style of shingles, it's the entire presentation from the way that you pull into the driveway to the way that you back out when you're done about what that homeowner is to expect, right?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. Setting expectations and following through. It's such a simple concept, but so powerful. so, okay, you'd mentioned that, go ahead. No, go.

Patrick Muhs: Yep. And there's one more thing, I'm sorry, Heidi, but you've inspired me here. There's one more thing that I want to say about that is that a lot of people think that sales, I mean, you hear all the time, sales is relationship, sales is relationship, sales is relationship. And it is, you must develop relationship with homeowner. But I hear sales people and I've had folks come to work in this organization who have said like, well, they don't buy the product, they buy me, right? And, and so, so and people do have to have that relationship, they've got it, they've got to, they've got to build that relationship with their customer, so that they know about, so that they got that trust with them, right? But it's like, they do need to understand so much more than just who they're working with, right? Like they need to understand the entire process, they need to understand how things work in order for them to have that trust.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Mmm.

Patrick Muhs: In order for them to have that relationship. I wanted to highlight that or I guess maybe clarify that, that it is a big benefit for a customer to be able to understand exactly how something works about exactly what's gonna happen with their project.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Exactly and really when you think about it as an owner of a roofing company You don't want it to be and hopefully I don't offend any salespeople out there But you don't want it to be just about the salesperson you want it to be about the company you want it to be what the company delivers how it delivers it and How that company will always be there? So to your point I think that is I think that's key and I think you're right There are a number of I mean just fantastic salespeople who people are buying because of that person, but you want them buying

Patrick Muhs: Right.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Because of the product and the education and the performance, long-term performance of what they're purchasing.

Patrick Muhs: Yeah. And when we make a sale, I take that attitude that you're talking about, that relationship, even one step further, is that I want that to be a relationship that somebody's gonna come back to time and time again if they have needs in the future. And so a good salesperson can close any deal, right? If you're really, really good, if you're really, really slick, right? If you're really, really good at sales, that'll get your foot.

But whether or not you're invited to stay, that has to do with your integrity, it has to do with your performance, it has to do with like, did I fulfill the promises that I made and am I who I represented myself to be? And that gets a little bit philosophical and maybe that might be a stretch for some folks, but I take it that seriously, is that I want the character, I want the fulfillment.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yes.

Patrick Muhs: Part of it to be the thing that gets me invited back, right? Like anybody can sell it, but can you fulfill the promise to the homeowner and make that stick so that they'll invite you to stay.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yes. And get the referral. It all circles back around and getting brand promoters, getting people who are gonna promote your business because of how you present it, how you follow through. So okay, you've mentioned a couple times that process and every contractor has a little bit of a different process. So when we're talking about sales assist, I wanna get a little bit into the weeds here, but when we are talking about sales assist, contractors can put together their own process using your videos, right?

Patrick Muhs: That's right. You bet.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Talk a little bit about that. Just talk about how it works for a contractor if they want to start incorporating this.

Patrick Muhs: Well, so there's different levels of what Sales Assist can offer. And the first one would simply be just having access to 3D animations that explain incredibly complicated processes like how ventilation works with a house. I keep going back to that one because it's the one that I find to be the most difficult to relate that concept to a homeowner, right? So there's just these simple clips. That explain that process. Then if contractors want to put together a custom video, they can link the clips together. That's one of the features and the functions of what Sales Assist can do is that, say you've got two or three different complicated processes that go for a particular homeowner or for a particular business owner, you can link those videos together, those clips together to make. One long, and we have some that explain the overview of the process and so on and so forth. And if somebody is so inclined, they can actually even buy customized videos from Sales Assist, where the animators will actually put the logo of the company on the truck that's pulling up in front of the house. If you use some proprietary tools or systems,

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. Love it.

Patrick Muhs: That maybe have your company logo on them. We can do that for you in the videos that are, and I say we, again, as I said in the beginning, I don't do that development. I don't know anything about the technology, but we as in the sales assist company can customize depending upon what the folks want from the process.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Haha I love it. I love it, you know? Pat, when we first started this, I told you this half hour would go by so fast and it did. So I need to wrap this up, but this tool, this new software, I'm just gonna encourage everybody out there, go check out the Sales Assist directory on Rufers Coffee Shop, see the demos, get a demo. This is the type, this differentiates your business. This is something when you walk in, whether you're sitting at the kitchen table or

Patrick Muhs: Yeah, right.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Doing a video presentation, you now have captured the attention and the trust of those homeowners. So Pat, wow, I'm so excited for you. This product is just...

Patrick Muhs: Yeah. Yeah, and for the owners out there who are listening to this, we also have some backend analytics. So you can make sure that if you're investing your time and your energy and your training into this, that your people are actually showing the videos when they go out and do their presentations. So that's also an added benefit to the program.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I love me some analytics, bring it on. Those are the things that make everything rock. Well, Pat, thank you. Thank you so much for your time today. We're gonna have you back because you and I just hardly even got started on this. You can tell it's a favorite topic for both of us. So we'll have you back. Thank you so much. you will, like I said, everyone can find you on Rufus Coffee Shop, on the directory. We have some articles, we have videos. We have all kinds of things going on there. So be sure to check it out. Pat, thank you so much.

Patrick Muhs: Thank you. All right. You. You bet. Thank you, Heidi.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Thank you and thank you all for listening. Wow, such great stuff for your business in 2025. Please check it out and check out all of our podcasts under the read, listen, watch navigation under roofing road trips or on your favorite podcast channel. Be sure to subscribe and set those notifications so you don't miss a single episode. We'll be seeing you next time on roofing road trips.