Mitch Gilbert and Jason Dark - The Sustainability Evolution - PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Mitch Gilbert and Jason Dark from Duro-Last. You can read the interview below or listen to the podcast.

Intro/Outro: Welcome to Roofing Road Trips with Heidi. Explore the roofing industry through the eyes of a long-term professional within the trade. Listen for insights, interviews, and exciting news in the roofing industry today.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Hello and welcome to another Roofing Road Trips from Roofers Coffee Shop. This is Heidi Ellsworth and we are here today to talk about sustainability. It's a buzzword, but it's a real thing and it's happening. We wanted to bring in the experts who really understand sustainability, so we asked our friends from Duro-Last, Jason Dark and Mitch Gilbert to join us. Welcome, gentlemen.

Mitch Gilbert: Hello.

Jason Dark: Hey, thanks for having us, Heidi.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Ah, so excited to have you on here and talk about sustainability. I know we've been talking about it a lot at all the meetings we go to. There's so many things going on. So before we dive in, let's start with some introductions. So first, Jason, can you go ahead and introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about Duro-Last?

Jason Dark: Sure. Jason Dark is my name. I've been with Duro-Last for 18 years. Today I'm the VP of sales, but I'm very proud to have had worn many hats prior to my current role. A little bit about Duro-Last, we're a proud manufacturer of the world's best roof, PVC roofing system. We work with a lot of great contractors, and we've been in business since 1978 and looking forward to the call.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I love it. I love it. Welcome to the podcast. Mitch, please introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about what you do at Duro-Last.

Mitch Gilbert: Yeah, thanks, Heidi. Hi. So my current title is the Director of Research and Development, Quality Control and Continuous Improvement. I have functional direction over our sustainability initiatives within Duro-Last, so we kind of have a core working group that drive all of our sustainability initiatives, and Jason and I are both part of that group. I'm a mechanical engineer by trade, and I've been in various different positions similar to Jason at Duro-Last for the last 26 years.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Wow, congratulations. That's great. I tell you what, I hope you can get that title on a business card. It's kind of long.

Mitch Gilbert: Not three by five. It's a three by five.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I love it. Okay, well, let's start out with, I'm really kind of looking at the industry as a whole. So Mitch, I'd love to start with you. What are you kind of seeing of the state of sustainability? What does it look like right now in the building industry?

Mitch Gilbert: Yeah, thanks Heidi. So I think to start answering that question, we have to look at the Inflation Reduction Act and how that's kind of driving more focus on the decarbonization of the entire Building Envelope, and what that kind of means for product sustainability. It looks like what it means is that manufacturers like Duro-Last will need to now and in the future differentiate their product offerings from the competition in regards to how they contribute to decarbonization of the building.

So in the past, we could focus on different aspects of our products, such as cost, quality, ease of installation, long-term performance, and smart manufacturers would focus on the aspects that outperformed the competition. While all those things are still important, certainly the sustainability story, the measure of each product's carbon footprint, if you will, and again, how that relates to its use in the building, that needs to be understood now and communicated as part of the sales strategy. And that's really something new that seems to be driven by the Inflation Reduction Act.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, I agree. I mean, it always helps when there's some funding there to really move that forward, and we've really seen that with this. Jason, from the sales side, what are you seeing with the Inflation Reduction Act and sustainability in the industry overall?

Jason Dark: Sure. There's a growing focus on lifecycle analysis, and Mitch mentioned the decarbonization of the building, measuring embodied carbon within products, being able to understand new sustainability metrics that are being used, frankly across the world. That's becoming a priority to building owners, designers, of course. At this point, it seems like just about every product is going to need to provide some sort of sustainability value back to the building during the lifecycle or the use phase of the products. Whether that's energy generation, recycling, whatever it might be, but it's not going away. There's a lot of interest from, again, building owners, designers, consultants throughout North America and the world that are focusing on this. So from a sales side, we definitely got to get up to speed with it and understand it and use it to our advantage.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, because I agree there's a lot of funding out there, especially with the IRA and everything, but there's also, I keep hearing from building owners from different segments, architects for sure, that there's just this need to, they know it's coming, so they're buying in. I've been watching this for 20 to 30 years, and we've had a few starts and few downs, but now it's definitely-

Jason Dark: Heidi, there's been waves of it, right?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah-

Jason Dark: It's been before it's time and had it's time, before it's time again. I think we're at that point now where it's here. It's a big deal and it's going to continue that way.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: It's not going anywhere, yeah. Okay. So Mitch, along that lines, Duro-Last was just acquired and is part of the Holcim Building Envelope group. Overall Holcim, just a great company. Duro-Last, obviously amazing, but I know there's initiatives within all these Holcim companies and kind of working together. So can you kind of talk about that big picture of the Holcim Building Envelope sustainability initiatives?

Mitch Gilbert: Yeah. Wow. Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there when it comes to the Holcim Building Envelope initiatives, we certainly have a comprehensive approach towards environmental, social, corporate governance programs. They have what they call four pillars, or we have what we call four pillars of sustainability, and there's goals around each pillar. So there's circular economy, people, nature, and climate and energy. So just real simple, we'll just talk about one goal from each pillar.

So for example, in the circular economy pillar, there's a goal to have 50% of end life commercial roofs diverted from landfill by 2030, so 50%.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Wow.

Mitch Gilbert: Right. Obviously, the goal there is to incorporate old roofs back into our processes. As far as the people pillar, Holcim Building Envelope encourages teammates to engage in their local communities so there's a goal to have a hundred thousand volunteer hours by 2030.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Geez.

Mitch Gilbert: Right, exactly. So as far as the water pillar, water scarcity is an issue that can impact everyone. So any operation that's in a medium, high or extremely high risk area will be water positive by 2030.

For the climate and energy Holcim Building Envelope, as part of the science-based target initiatives for emissions reductions with goals in 2030 and 2050, verified goals. So by 2030, we will reduce Scope one and Scope two emissions by 50%, and by 2050, we will reduce Scope one and Scope two emissions by 95%.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Wow.

Mitch Gilbert: When it comes to Holcim Building Envelope's commitment to sustainability, it's certainly comprehensive and unquestionable.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, to have those kinds of goals. 2030 isn't that far away.

Mitch Gilbert: It's not.

Jason Dark: [inaudible 00:08:19]-

Heidi J. Ellsworth: So Jason, from your standpoint and working with all the contractors, and I know there's been a lot of curiosity, how's this all going to work? These are some pretty amazing goals that fit right in with the Duro-Last culture, right?

Jason Dark: Oh, for sure. Yeah, we're excited about it and having big targets like that and something to strive for, that's always good. That keeps the team moving in the right direction, so that's cool. And then, yeah, from a Duro-Last standpoint, Heidi, we've got a pretty substantial history of sustainability. And to me, our founder, John Burt, he founded our company in the late seventies. He realized pretty quick, pretty early on in it all that he needed to start diverting PVC waste from the landfill. So we've had that vision and been recycling, and our company specifically, we've been recycling post-industrial waste for a while now.

And as a company, we take old roofs, we take scrap from our manufacturing process, and we turn it into Protect-All flooring. That's our All flooring brand, which is a resilient, durable flooring used in the back of the house, kitchens, hospitals. It's got a ton of really cool applications, and we've diverted over a hundred million pounds of PVC from landfill in our company's history. And obviously upcycling it into flooring products. We've got an expansion joint product. So yeah, we always say, "Hey, we were recycling and sustainable before it was cool." And we're proud of that. We're really proud of that, and we're proud to continue on that. We've got a couple of recycling operations in Michigan that are full blown and rock and rolling. So we're proud of where we're at and where we've come from and where we're going.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, so impressive to really... I mean, doing the right thing, stewardship, long before anybody says you have to. It makes good business sense too because now you have this great flooring and it's reusing all of the recycled material.

So Jason, how does current, what you're doing already with Duro-Last and your current initiatives for sustainability, how's that kind of tie in a little bit to the Holcim? I would think they're going to be a whole lot closer to their goals because of Duro-Last.

Jason Dark: Yeah, I would think so. I think that would be one of the reasons that they saw value in our great company, was our sustainability efforts. Holcim, they're experts at this. They're all in. We're going to learn a lot being a part of that group, and hopefully they'll learn a lot from us and we'll bring the best out of each other. So again, everyone's just really excited and it's been an awesome ride so far in a few months that we've been working together.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, I love it. You did say that you have two full recycling facilities going right now. Mitch, what is some of the plans from an operations to continue growing more recycled, because there's a lot of roofs out there that need to be recycled, right?

Mitch Gilbert: Yeah, absolutely. Right now our focus is on shifting from pre-consumer recycling to post-consumer recycling. So we've been, as Jason said, making resilient flooring for over 35 years and just think about the vision that it took to anticipate that and help us create products and markets for those products over the years, to where we're in a position now we can use our existing Recycle Your Roof program that we put in place in 2014. We had division back then to add some more sustainability initiatives within our business, and we executed on those. So having those end use products in place, we feel like we're in a really good position to ramp up our post-consumer Take Back program and get the best value for the organization and honestly for society out of the material once we take it back.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I just have to ask this question because I'm sure there's a lot of contractors out there, not a lot, but maybe a few who have not heard about your Take Back program. So how does that work, Jason or Mitch, however, but how does that work so contractors can be recycling their roofs?

Jason Dark: Mitch, let me take that one. So again, we've been installing roofs since the late seventies. So as they exceed their warranty or their useful life, we encourage our contractors to send those... Obviously we have a procedure to pull the roof off, package it up, send it back to our recycling operation. And then to Mitch's point, we're turning it into the resilient flooring, the Protect-All flooring brand.

We have some use cases where we would take the roof off of a school, for example, and then we would put flooring back into their gymnasium, use the same roof. At our headquarters in Saginaw, Michigan, we took, I believe it was a 23 or 24 year old portion of a roof off, and we put it down on one of our manufacturing floors. We took the roof, made it into flooring, put it back into the building. There's great stories like that. So that's the roof Take Back program, and we encourage all of our roofers to look into that and do their part.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, if you're interested, if you're not a Duro-Last contractor, this is a chance. This is a great program. You can find them on Roofer's Coffee Shop in the directory and become a contractor, because this is just a small part of all the great things that they do for the industry, for the consumers, for the owners, and for this earth.

Speaking of that, of what we can do for the earth. So Mitch, what do you think the roofing industry should be doing overall for sustainability?

Mitch Gilbert: Well, I guess I'd start by saying continue to embrace the use of the lifecycle assessment in EPDs, although I think that's going to happen all on its own because of the Inflation Reduction Act. But just understanding the aspects that go into that. I mean, there's a lot of information. Sometimes it's new information to the manufacturers, but for the roofing industry to embrace that. I think also really do what they can to promote recycling. When it comes to looking at our product, the Duro-Last products lifecycle, where we kind of lose our ability to improve it is once it leaves our building. So we can design it for the appropriate raw materials. We can optimize the energy used in manufacturing and we can give it some sustainable value, the high reflectivity, so the building owner achieves some savings there. But once it leaves our building and hits the job site, we really need some assistance in recycling the material once it's at the end of its life. We're not out there doing that. Roofing contractors are, the roofing industry in general are.

But also installation waste is kind of the next wave, the next evolution if you will, of sustainability is what roofing contractors can do and the industry could help promote recycling job site waste, installation waste, pallets, cores, shrink wrap, anything that comes from the factory. How do we go about recycling that to scale? Doing one job here and there is probably okay, but how do we do this realistically to scale?

And then any associations that are involved in the roofing industry, just to get involved with your members, talk about it and come up with some ideas on how we go about doing this.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I can say the NRCA has just started their sustainability committee, and James Ellsworth is going to be on it. So I'm going to make sure he's listening to this podcast because you guys have some great ideas.

Jason Dark: Mitch, bringing up the associations is a really good segue, if I may. So you and I specifically, we're very involved in the roofing industry. We go to industry events, NRCA Roofing Alliance, and we see there's certain roofing contractors for people in the industry who are all-in, very up to speed, very educated and smart when it comes to sustainability. Then there's others that are like, what's sustainability? It's so wild. So I think it's important that the roofing industry... People just need to jump in and get started. There's a lot being done already.

You just mentioned the Roofing Alliance, and that's the foundation of the National Roofing Contractors Association. They're funding a... Well, to your point, Heidi, they got the sustainability committee, which is great, which will lead this product and this project. They've got the research project through Clemson University, and it's titled Sustainability and Resiliency Efforts for the Roofing Industry. It's a three year study, and the goal of that study is to document the current state of various sustainability efforts throughout the roofing industry and then develop training modules per se, to educate all of us that are industry stakeholders. So that's going to be a great piece of research for the industry, hopefully create some commonality amongst us all, in all the sustainability efforts and what's going on. There's a ton of other resources as well but that's a really good start, in my opinion. Sustainability is not going away, we mentioned it earlier.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: No.

Jason Dark: Duro-Last taking back old roofs that have exceeded their warranty or their useful life and making Protect-All flooring out of it is absolutely awesome. But even us doing that, in the grand scheme of things, that's a small scale of what's possible. So that's why I like the goals that Holcim set. They're big goals, and I just think everyone in the industry should set some of those goals and just jump in, start working together, and we could drive the industry together.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I agree. I agree. You just made me think, Jason, because you and I were there at an NRCA meeting when they were first talking about sustainability. And it's not just what is sustainability, but there's also a lot of people saying, "Why is this important?" I think you both have really brought that to the forefront because it's going to happen. You can either be a part of it, part of the solution, or be left behind. I think it's going to start defining business practices. I think consumers are going to be looking for contractors and manufacturers who are sustainable.

Jason Dark: For sure-

Mitch Gilbert: Absolutely. I think we're there now. You have to have a sustainability story to tell, but also a real one, a valid one backed up by data that can be documented and validated by a third party. It's here to stay. It's definitely here to stay, and it's advancing in ways that are new and exciting for me.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. No greenwashing.

Mitch Gilbert: No greenwashing.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: No greenwashing. You know what, Mitch, you said one thing earlier that I just want to make sure everybody knows. You mentioned EPDs. I would love for you to just say what that stands for and what it is, because contractors are going to see these and they're going to be kind of like, what is this?

Mitch Gilbert: Sure. So environmental product declaration. Really their documents, it's almost like a food label. When you look at a food package it's got all the information on there, calories, sodium content, all the nutrition information. This is a similar document for products. And Duro-Last, again, we put our first EPD out in 2015, being transparent about how our product impacts the environment. So it's based off of the lifecycle assessment.

The lifecycle assessments are very long. There's a lot of information there because it covers raw materials used in manufacturing, energy consumed in manufacturing, the durability of it. So the EPD is basically a summary of your lifecycle assessment. It gives you all of the environmental information for a product. I just want to say that when we did our EPD in 2015, we were the first single ply PVC roofing manufacturer to publish a product specific EPD. So we've been doing them for a little while, but they are important because it gives that transparency to the customer on how this product affects the environment, but also compares to other products for me to choose from.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Right. Congratulations on that, being the first. I love it. That is so great. So I think also as we're talking, even though I said it's what and then why, I think people are getting that what it is and why they have to do it, but the 'how' is still really tough and really escaping people. So Jason, what are some tips for contractors to start really looking at a sustainability culture in their business, and also in communicating that to their customers. What do you recommend?

Jason Dark: Well, I think first is look for education. Try to get educated on it. And you brought up customers, Heidi. Ask your customers, right? There's no better way to find out about sustainability initiatives that they're interested in other than asking. Sustainability is a culture, and it's important. Also, I think all of us, you got to take a stand. What is your sustainability pledge going to be?

To me, it's our duty as people and as businesses to think about the impact we have and what that means. So I think that's important. Then really for roofing contractors, it's look around your community. What's already being done? Are there recycling operations? Are there ways to reduce job site waste? Just those things right there, you'll find a bunch of different roads to go down. So yeah, I think that's a good start. Get educated, talk to your customers and just really think about it and take a pledge somehow.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And I would recommend get with your manufacturers. And if your manufacturers aren't doing that, see who is, because there's definitely leaders of the pack out there.

Jason Dark: And Heidi, join the Roofing Alliance.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, join the Roofing Alliance. Exactly. That one's for Alison, join the Roofing Alliance. Seriously, the research that they do, what Clemson is doing on this is amazing. Then join NRCA because like I said, NRCA has this full sustainability committee now, they are also going after this. Then of course, we got to go your regional, your local. Anytime contractors are coming together and their associations, they can make a big difference, and we see it all the time.

Mitch, some last thoughts just on overall to the industry, to contractors out there about the importance of sustainability in their business.

Mitch Gilbert: Yeah, absolutely. So again, within the four walls of Duro-Last we can use that lifecycle assessment as a system of continuous improvement, so we can make our products more sustainable, lower embodied carbon and things like that. Where we lose the ability to control that or contribute to that is once it leaves our building. So I would really, really like roofing contractors to start thinking about ways to recycle job site waste.

The two biggest challenges for any amount of post-consumer recycling is having a cost effective method for collecting the materials and having end use products that can take post-consumer content. I think, again, we have some end use products to use the post-consumer content, but where we really need assistance and really need help is how to tackle problem number one, which is collecting the material to be recycled from the job site. Again, think about not just the membrane tear off, when you come to a Duro-Last tear off, send it back to us, but also begin to think about how we recycle the packaging materials, pallets, cores, boxes, buckets. I think recycling metal's pretty easy, but some of the plastic stuff, how are we going to do that to scale? And engage in that conversation.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: The landfills can only take so much.

Mitch Gilbert: Absolutely.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Right. Jason, how do contractors get ahold of you and your team at Duro-Last to get started?

Jason Dark: Yeah, you guys can check us out on our website, durolast.com, our 800 number, 800-2480-280. Reach out to your local rep. We've got a lot of team members, and we'd love to hear from you guys.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, even if you just want to ask questions, reach out. You can find all that information that Jason just said on the Roofers Coffee Shop directory for Duro-Last, along with a lot of information, articles, all kinds of things on this initiative. So gentlemen, thank you so much. What a great podcast, great information. I appreciate you both so much.

Jason Dark: Thank you, Heidi-

Mitch Gilbert: Thank you Heidi-

Jason Dark: Thanks.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And we'll have you back. We want to know how those initiatives... We'll see if we're all here 2030, I want to know how we do. Okay.

Mitch Gilbert: Invite us back anytime, especially 2029.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Okay, you got it. 2029 is the date, but we'll probably be sooner than that. And I want to say thank you to all for listening to this podcast, great information for your business, how you can really do something for the planet and also for your customers, and most of all, for your business.

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