Maximizing Solar Rooftop Durability - PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Greg Hudson, Ieuan Compton and John Mulcahy of Georgia Pacific. You can read the interview below or watch the webinar.

Intro: Good morning and welcome to Coffee Conversations from Roofer's Coffee Shop. My name is Heidi Ellsworth and we are here today to talk about solar ready roofs, maximizing solar rooftop durability. This is a hot topic and I don't mean that as a pun, but it is definitely what everyone is talking about during meetings in the offices. Everyone knows that solar is coming on the rooftop and it's going to be even bigger. So what are we doing as an industry to make sure that we are protecting that rooftop and everything underneath it? So we brought our experts from Georgia Pacific here today to talk about just that. Before we get into introductions, first, housekeeping, this is being recorded and it will be available within 24 hours. Please share it, get it out to other professionals, to your company. This is the kind of information that we need to get out to the industry and beyond.

Also, we will have the chat open and you can already see Karen Edwards is in our chat and she's going to be answering questions and so will I, as will all of our guests. So please, comments, thoughts, questions. We want it all for this great conversation this morning. So let's get going. I want to, again, thank Georgia Pacific as our sponsor of this conversation. Really, they are leading the way in rooftop durability and also bringing important conversations to the market. How do we do better? How do we have durable, high performance roofs for all of the customers in the buildings out there? So Georgia Pacific, thank you so much and let's get to some introductions. First of all, I would like to introduce Greg Hudson, who I have done a lot of work with over the years. Greg, thank you so much for being here today. Can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you do with Georgia Pacific?

Greg Hudson: Yes, thank you for having us Heidi. It's always a pleasure to chat with you, whether that's on the air or not on the air. I'm the director of commercial Dens sales with Georgia Pacific, which includes our Dens deck roof boards, which are a component in commercial low slope roof systems. Been in the industry for quite a while and constantly learning, and we're getting some new complexity with solar being added to roofs. So brought along some experts to help us talk about this and people that are passionate about the topic, so I'll pass it on.

Heidi J Ellsworth: I love it. Okay, well I'm very happy to introduce and to welcome, for the first time, Ieuan Compton from Georgia Pacific from the UK and Europe. If you could introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you do with Georgia Pacific.

Ieuan Compton: Yeah, good morning to everyone in the States and good afternoon to everybody in Europe. Yeah, I Compton. I am the international market manager for Georgia Pacific and I look after the Dens portfolio of products everywhere outside of the US and Canada, really. Been in the industry for a few years, been around a little bit, 35 years or so in construction products and I've worked for a number of the bigger players, so I'm really pleased to be here as part of this conversation. Been doing a lot of work over the past 12 months on solar and flat roof resiliency, so I'm looking forward to this conversation.

Heidi J Ellsworth: So glad to have you here, and thank you. I know we got a little bit of a time difference, so this is great that you're here. Thank you so much. And I would love to introduce John Mulcahy with Georgia Pacific. Please introduce yourself and tell us what you do and about the sustainability.

John Mulcahy: Yeah, thanks, Heidi. My name's John Mulcahy. I'm the vice president of Stewardship for Georgia Pacific. I've been with GP my entire career. That's 37 years this week, as a matter of fact, and talking about stewardship, we refer to stewardship here at Georgia Pacific as managing the resources that are entrusted to our care in a manner that respects the rights of others. And when we think about resources, it's not only the forest and water, the minerals that we rely upon to produce our products, but it's also the relationships that we have with our employees, with our customers, with our community. So our overall ESG program is something that I look after.

Heidi J Ellsworth: That's excellent. Thank you. Thank you, gentlemen. Well, let's get started. We have some great conversation here. And so I really want to start with what we're seeing as trends in the roofing industry, the overall integration of solar and cover boards. Greg, can you start us out? Just give us that big picture.

Greg Hudson: Yeah. As if roof systems weren't complex enough. We're increasing the amount of solar being added to those roof systems, and really, what's driving that is whether it's an individual business owner or companies or even designers. They have specific ESG goals that they're trying to hit, whether that's from a personal preference or it's a company kind of vision statement. We're seeing increased solar from regulation requiring certain amount of renewables. Nothing on the federal level right now, but different states are adopting different municipalities. And then one of the other driving factors is really the affordability of the arrays, and the solar panels have come down somewhat in cost, making them more affordable so people can really achieve their preferences.

From a big picture, we look at the three criteria driving rooftop solar and that starts with, one of the first things is high energy costs. And Ieuan's going to get a little bit of what's going on in European market, but we have different parts of the country that do have higher energy costs, increasing populations. At the same time that ties into the lack of ground space. So when you're looking at ground solar versus rooftop, some of these densely populated areas, they don't have the ground space. So they're looking at these large, flat roofs that take up a lot of square footage and saying, "Boy, that's a great opportunity. That's on new space. Let's add rooftop solar there." And then the third criteria is really having an energy provider that collaborates well with the individual renewable energy and whether that's selling back into the grid or working with you to incorporate solar as part of your overall energy strategy.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Greg, we were just at the NRCA meetings, and there's still just a lot of people out there who were kind of looking at it and saying, "Why should I be involved? Why should I do that?" So let's start, Greg, start with you, but then I'd like to hear from everybody just why roofing contractors should really be paying attention and thinking about this for the future in their business.

Greg Hudson: One of the things that always comes back to me when we sit in meetings like the NRCA and we talk with the contractors from around the country, whether they're large or small, is really they are the subject matter experts when it comes into the installation and repair of low slope roof systems and it is just built into their DNA. They collaborate with the building owners, they collaborate with the designers, whether that's a roofing consultant or an architect and they collaborate with the system manufacturers. Ultimately it's a roof system, and so they're really advantaged in that space and that speaks to this is going to be impacting that roof system, so they should have a place at the table and be there when decisions are going to be made on what's going to impact the life cycle or the performance of that roof system. So whether you're expanding your company to do the installs, yourself or you want to have that place at the table because it will be impacting the roof system that you installed or you're responsible for the maintenance.

Heidi J Ellsworth: And John, as you're talking to roofing contractors or looking at this from the sustainability side of it, just their market and their brand, why should they be really looking at this?
John Mulcahy: Yeah, I think they should be trying to think in terms of the building occupant and the building owners and how they're looking at it and what are the benefits that solar can provide to those buildings? I think there's a number of ways to think about it. One, this can make a building more attractive to a tenant and that has the ability to positively impact things like occupancy and lease rate, particularly if the installation helps the building to achieve certain certifications that a prospective tenant could value. It could also lead to lower energy costs. It could help the building owners achieve sustainability goals that they've set. It can help them prepare for potential legislative and regulatory requirements.

So I think there's a lot of benefits, but they should also be looking at how do we avoid any, call it unacceptable trade-offs that might come with that operation. So, how do you do it in a way that you minimize risk to damage and installation, any negative impact of the weight of the array or any infrastructure that the roof could be supporting, fire risk, unexpected maintenance, things of that nature. So really look at both the positive benefit that solar could provide to the tenant and the owner, while minimizing any risk.

Heidi J Ellsworth: And that's why you have to really understand it and that's why you have to do it, but Ieuan, Europe is so and the UK, you guys are so far ahead of us in the US and what has been some of the indicators, the trends that you've seen that really is changing rooftop and where do you see the US needing to go?

Ieuan Compton: That's an interesting question. If we take Europe as a starting point, now is a great time to be selling solar panels, because every man and his dog is fitting solar panels. The rapid uptake has been staggering and there are five or six key bits of legislation pushing this at a European level. We've got a European green deal, which is linked to the COP 21 outputs that says that Europe needs to be net-zero carbon by 2050. And that sounds like it's a long way away, but it's not. It's 26 years away, which is the lifetime of a roof that hasn't performed properly. So we're one rooftop, one rooftop away from being net-zero carbon and that's quite sobering, quite a sobering step. In May of 2022, which obviously, every year is going to be a new record for the event of solar PVs installed. But '22, 2022 was the year that just obliterated the record books and now, every year following is going to be incremental.

But even so, the numbers are staggering. And in 2022, when Russia invaded Ukraine, the whole of Europe sat up and went, "What about we buy our fuel from Russia, we need to stop our dependency on Russia for our fuel." And there was this secondary push towards more renewable technologies, and there's no legislation in place as a result of that. There's [inaudible 00:12:02] 55. There's Renewable Energy Directive, there's the Energy Efficiency Directive, there's all these bits and pieces that all build on this foundation. But then, the latest one actually came down to details. This is all, up until now, it's been big picture stuff. We've got to be renewable, we're going to reduce our energy reliance and all this sort of stuff. But the Repower EU plan actually set in law some measurements and that, by 2030, 2030, they're going to install something daft like 600 gigawatts of renewable energy.

Now some of that, to Greg's earlier point, will be ground level, some will be rooftop, some will be hydro, some will be water, whatever the one for water is. There'll be a mix of renewables, but what the act does say is that, by 2026, which is 18 months away, all new public and commercial buildings with a use of floor area of 250 square meters, I apologize to my American colleagues. That's meters, not feet. Greg can do this in his head. I've had this conversation with Greg before, couple thousand square feet, but by 2026, all public buildings have got to have solar on the roof. All existing buildings by 2027, and then residential buildings by 2029. So within the next five years there is legislation going to be in place that's insisting on renewables and rooftops

Heidi J Ellsworth: And that is going to follow. I mean, it's going to follow. It seems to start in Europe. And then as we're looking at the US market, those regulations, those, well, incentives, incentivisings, is making a difference. So Greg, as you're seeing that, kind of going back to why roofing contractors should be getting involved and understanding the solar space, this is being driven, but it also seems to be driven by large corporations, too, that are really making a change.

Greg Hudson: You get quite a few corporations, and there's multiple system manufacturers out there. There's some that have partnered or stood up, photovoltaics or solar entities, but it's that connection where they come together. And while the regulations may not follow as quickly as they do in Europe, the cost of energy is something that is fairly significant out there. And as Americans, cost is one thing that we do like to keep low. But at the same time, we do have individual and company stewardship goals, which we led with. And multiple large building owners, large companies that own a lot of square footage, they have these goals that they want to get to and they want to take advantage of that space, as well.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah. Now, one thing we haven't touched on that I think is also a driver in the US is insurance. The insurance companies are, Ieuan, what are you seeing around insurance? I saw a big nod.

Ieuan Compton: Yeah, I mean, I think we've talked about the legislation that's driving the requirement, but actually, I think when we look at the resilience of our roofing systems and the way that we install the solar PV panels and stuff, it's the insurance companies that are going to dictate the safety measures, the precautions, the resilience that we design and build in. There's a stat that says for every gigawatt of photovoltaics we have in use, the insurance company predicts 28.9 fires and that's a tiny number, but if you consider that, in the US alone, they're forecasting 252 gigawatts of new installed capacity every year for the next five or six years, that's a lot of potential fires and that's a lot of potential fires that cause insurance companies to have big payouts.

And it's not just payouts because the solar panels not working or the roof got a little bit damaged. When they're on Greg's big businesses that've got the big square footage, there's a huge business interruption cost. So it's these guys that are saying, "Okay, if you're going to have solar, we understand why you're going to have it, that's fine, but do this, do this, do this. And I think it's them that will dictate what we do and how we do it.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah. So, okay. To that point, John, as we're looking at the building owner expectations listening to this, they're dealing with regulations, they're dealing with insurance and they also have their own sustainability goals, what are you seeing and hearing from the building owner expectation side?

John Mulcahy: Yeah, so from a building kind of sustainability standpoint, I think picking up on what Greg and Ieuan were both saying, I think it's important to look at environmental impact both in the components itself and then more broadly in the long-term operation of the building. So we produce cover boards, that's our contribution to the solar installation and we provide environmental product declarations for our panel products, including our cover boards. Those declarations, they're completed in compliance with applicable ISO standards, you can find them on their websites and they help decision makers understand environmental information related to the impacts of the boards, themselves.

But I think once it's installed, you also need to consider the environmental impact more broadly in consideration of its durability, its ability to continue to perform its intended function over time. If the board needs to be replaced sooner than expected, that can lead to waste and the disposal of the existing board, the environmental impact of producing and installing the new board and if that board is being used to support solar or other infrastructure, that leads to additional cost if that's going to need to be removed and either replaced or reinstalled, so it's more than just the impact of the individual components, it's the role that it plays in a broader system over the life of that building. And when making a decision on which products to use, you need to think both about the item itself and its longer term impact.

Heidi J Ellsworth: That makes a lot of sense. So as the building on it, so putting all this together as we have the regulations, the insurance, the building owners, the sustainability goals, all of that coming together and especially going back to what we were just talking about with insurance companies and what we're looking at with the risk of fire and that they're going to have a lot looking there. Let's talk about the durability of solar-ready roof like we talked about before. So, when we are looking at the cover boards, how do you see that influencing the environmental footprint of a solar roofing project, John? I'm going to come back to you. I'm just trying to get, how important is we are trying to hit these marks with sustainability? Whether that's solar and just everything that's going on there, how is cover boards kind of influencing that and working together?

John Mulcahy: Yeah, I think that's kind of what I just tried to address in the previous question. You've got the environmental impact of the cover board, itself, which our EPDs provide a sense of and then it's its impact in the operation, itself. So I think I kind of touched on that.
Heidi J Ellsworth: Oh, okay. Sorry.

John Mulcahy: No. No.

Greg Hudson: The only thing I would add there is keep in mind commercial low slope roof systems are under a number of forces without solar, and this just adds new complexity to that. And when you're adding, excuse me, additional foot traffic, whether it's to service or install or anything of these solar arrays, then the need for increased resiliency is there. And that's where rigid cover board with its puncture resistance, preventing that cavitation of the insulation, keeping that insulation performing optimally, as well, which ties into your sustainability goals, is so important and making sure that that roof lasts its life expectancy.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah, and thank you. I was kind of dropping my head around that, in that, with what you were saying, John and then the whole system, because thinking white roofs go towards the energy, the insulation, the solar, how does all this work? And it is kind of complex when you start putting all this together.

Greg Hudson: There's nothing singular in roofing. You can ask anybody. Any contractor will tell you that, consultant or anything, but nothing singular whatsoever. You're solving for a lot of micro challenges or macro challenges, all leading to this roof's needs to last a specific life cycle and stand up whatever humans or nature throws at it.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Let's talk a little bit. Let's get down to the cover boards. We have this great illustration where just, really explaining what the cover boards are. I know most people know this, but just to get us all on the same track and what is their primary function in the roofing? Can you just kind of walk through this with overall?

Ieuan Compton: Yeah, I can certainly do that, and absolutely, in the US, I think the use of cover boards is relatively well-established and most people will know what a cover board is. That's less true of Europe. In Europe, it's a relatively new technology. So this, whilst I may be teaching my colleagues in the US something they already know, there are colleagues in Europe that are watching that maybe won't know this, so it is not completely wasted. We have two definitions of board. We have a roof board and a cover board. Roof board sits on the structural deck and sits over, in this illustration, a fluted steel deck. So it improves the health and safety, allows people to move around on the roof as it's being built up. It also gives you a nice good solid, firm flat surface for the vapor control layer to be adhered to.

So you're building in an extra bit of resilience by having that in there because the bond of the VCL is going to be much tighter, which improves the air tightness of the building and increases the energy efficiency, et cetera, et cetera. Off that, then you build the insulation and then you've got the cover board and it's the cover board that brings the most benefits to a solar PV-ready roof. The cover board sits on top of the insulation layer and underneath the waterproofing layer. Now, one of the things that I particularly enjoy about being in Europe is when we say insulation, we mean quite a different amount of insulation to the amount that you use, typically, in the US. In Canada, there is a lot more and it's much more European, but we are talking a lot, lot more insulation over here.

The cover board sits on top of the insulation. So if the solar PV array isn't fixed through to the structure, and it rests on top of the insulation, then the cover board can help spread the load across the insulation. In doing so, it's prevented the insulation from dipping and being compressed and therefore not working as efficiently and therefore not being as sustainable. But it's also stopping the potential for water to pond. And if water gathers on the roof, then obviously that can introduce all sorts of other problems, whether that be amplification of the UV from the sun through the water onto the membrane or whether it's mosses and algaes and that sort of stuff building up in there. The big benefit the cover board brings in this assembly is it supports the waterproofing layer and helps to prevent puncture. Now, with a solar PV on your roof, you've got to maintain these systems.

If you don't maintain them, they will catch fire. If you don't maintain them, they won't work as efficiently, they don't work as efficiently, they're not sustainable, etc, etc, etc. So you've got to have regular maintenance over and above the normal inspection periods that you would have for your flat roofing. With that increased traffic, that's more people moving around on your roof, that's more people moving around your roof with tools that can drop them and cause punctures. And there's other bits of kit. These solar panels don't just sit there and generate electricity. They've also got bolt-on bits of kit that you might have, batteries they might have inverted. It's this whole other side of the equipment that also sits on the roof, and then the big one and the hot topic to use your earlier pun, is fire risk with a solar PV panel. I've already told you that for every gigawatt, the insurance company predicts 28.9 fires.

If a fire occurs, and the panels, in fairness, don't catch fire. What tends to catch fire is the electricity running from them. And if they're not maintained properly, they arc. And if you arc a DC current, it runs at 600 degrees centigrade. It causes all sorts of problems. So there's a big fire risk that comes with these. Or not a big fire, it's a small chance of fire, but if a fire happens, it's a serious fire. And if you use a non-combustible cover board, like Den's deck as shown in the illustration, then that can help because it adds an additional layer of fire resistance into the whole flat roof assembly.

Heidi J Ellsworth: So, okay. And I want to go back, in fact, I was going to ask a question then you answered it, but I, just to dive in deeper, I think we always talk about the fire risk and it's going to cause fire. So what you're saying is, can you explain that again just on what actually causes the fires?

Ieuan Compton: Yeah, sure.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah.

Ieuan Compton: I can do that. So the panel, itself, doesn't catch fire. The panel generates electricity, but electricity is then transferred through wires to ... And the electricity is generated in a DC current. So, our houses work on an AC current, which basically means it goes back and forward. Because it's going back and forward, you haven't got that constant stream of electricity. You've got this, actually, it's a wave. It's not back and forward, but with DC it's only going one way. So if you get a broken connection, for example, then that broken connection acts like an arc welder and it's 600 degrees centigrade. It's that arc and it's that constant arc that causes the fire risk. There are other reasons why fires occur, but that's the one that causes all the damage.

Heidi J Ellsworth: And so when you're talking about inspections, and you need to do a lot more inspections, there's so many roofing contractors that are just doing the roof. They might have other people putting in the solar panels. So let's talk a little bit about that. Just, as the contractors are coming in, are the solar companies also coming in and doing these inspections and checking for that kind of fire damage? And what can the roofing contractors be doing with that besides, obviously, the solar ready roof, which we're going to talk a little bit more about.

Ieuan Compton: I think that's a very good question and observation. The solar panel guys typically would be looking at making sure the glass is clean, making sure that there's no debris and that sort of stuff, stopping the efficiency of the panel and they obviously will check the connections and that type of thing, as well. The building maintenance team might be going up and looking for debris, looking for damage and other bits and pieces. And I suppose it depends on who, ultimately, has that responsibility. Is it the facilities manager of the building? Is it the client or is it subcontracted to consultant? That comes in a couple of times a year, and that's one of the things, I guess, that the insurance companies will get to very quickly and they will say, "Okay, if you've got solar PV on your roof, I want a documented, auditable schedule of works and I want someone to check for this, someone to check for that," and that somebody will be assigned that responsibility.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Greg, as we're looking at this, I, and I want to say hi to Tony Radar. I saw this on here from National Roofing Partners, but they are doing roof service and maintenance, right now, in the roofing industry is just exploding and is so important. This is the kind of program that has been the big controversy, I think, for years of who owns it, who has the responsibility.

Greg Hudson: You know what's interesting is that, if you go back, it started with the HVACs on the roof and again, people with tools, people that did not understand, the roof dropping screws, coppers, things like that. But at the same time you're increasing, if you think about wind-driven debris, wind-driven debris gathers typically on low slope roofs, especially with parapet walls. Well, now you have more areas for that stuff to gather. And defining who owns that is so important. And in order to keep that warranty active and a lot of warranties out there, you have to have a preventative maintenance program in place. But if the PV is installed after the fact, who specifically owns that? And that's why having a seat at the table is so important. Even if it doesn't fall in your scope of work, it doesn't get pushed off on the contractor because our contractors are working on so many different things and nobody wins in a finger pointing contest.

Heidi J Ellsworth: So when we talk about risks in solar, obviously, the fire, in which we all know, but you bring up a great point, Greg, is that there's other risks. There's the risk of when somebody else is installing solar onto that roof, when they're maintaining that roof, what they're doing, the foot traffic and all of that. So much of that can fall back on the contractor if they haven't done their due diligence. And I have to say part of that is this solar ready roof with the cover boards that can handle the more intense needs of that roof. What are you seeing, Greg, when you're talking to contractors out there or building owners about really understanding the solar ready that they aren't just going to come put solar panels on it and then have it fall back onto the contractor?

Greg Hudson: Yeah. Yes, it is. It is so important to it. Tony just called it out, too, is engage that manufacturer again with the warranty, understanding the lifecycle of that. We see a lot of solar after the fact, someone gets a great idea, but they don't understand how was that roof built to perform? What was the original design intent? What was installed to meet that design intent? Now the status quo has changed, so other things need to change along with that. And it's getting the owner, the manufacturer, the contractor and if there is a roof consultant or an architect maintenance person in there and getting that defined out.

And that's why this is such a hot topic, right now. It came up in multiple committee meetings at the NRCA and they built out the solar committee say, "What role will they play?" And there's other great organizations, as well and the local trade roofing organizations that are tackling these problems, but there's really a physical performance side and then there's a contractual side, a legal side of what goes into that. And I think those are the area where they can all come together and identify some best practices, and they're going to come from contractors that have had good experiences through what they've done and contractors that, unfortunately, that have had bad experiences. So you can get it all on the table and lay it out, but making sure that the right folks are in the room is so important.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah. So we've got some great comments coming in here. I'm going to start with, we have a question. You gentlemen are going to need to tell me which one would like to answer this because it's a really interesting question. It's for flat roofs. Recent guidance suggests placing PV panels upright back to back, aligned along a north-south axis with East-West inter-doubled panel spacing depending on panel height and local latitude. Do you have any opinions to share about this? Thanks.

Greg Hudson: Well, they said flat roof, so that's Europe, so that's yours. Yeah.

Ieuan Compton: Oh, they go for that bus. So, yes. I, too, have seen this recommendation. I believe it comes from Scandinavia. I'm not a PV panel expert. I don't know. I don't have an answer to have an opinion on it. I think anything that allows the panels to work efficiently in a safe way and reduces any potential risk has to be looked at and looked at seriously. But yeah, I don't really have an opinion that I could nail my colors to the mast over that one, but it's on Scandinavia. I have seen the report. That's a great question.

Greg Hudson: And I have heard this, as well, in conversations. A lot of times, it is, again, tying to that wind impact on the array itself. One of the issues after a recent hurricane in Florida was they were ballasted arrays and the arrays were hit. Again, that's hurricane force winds. I understand that, but they're ballasted arrays and the arrays tumbled down the roof causing damage to more area than just where they were mounted. And in some instances they actually hit the next roof, which did not have solar on it and damaged that roof, as well. So that's one of the other considerations is how are we mounting these is very important. And you think about, that's where engaging those designers on parapet wall height, the understanding the wind impact, I always say that the most important function of a roof is to stay on the roof, not in the parking lot. So we want to do that, as well.

Heidi J Ellsworth: John, any thoughts?

John Mulcahy: I think that just trying to apply a sustainability lens to the board and how it applies to some of the longer term impacts is to really focus on versatility and ensuring that products that you make are ready for what's to come. I think one of the things that we believe at Georgia Pacific is that the role of business in society, why we exist as a company, is to help people to improve their lives. And we do that by providing products and services that they value more highly than alternatives. And if you think about our products and you think about roofing, from a very simplistic standpoint, it's shelter, which is a basic human need, but to be preferred, you really have to look at the function, what they're trying to do with a bit today, what you may be doing with the future. And so that's why we've tried to continue to improve our products and extend the benefits and the impacts of our products so that we understand the challenges, we understand the risks and that we can use that information to make improvements and to adjust to where the market is going.

We introduced Dens in 1986, so it's 38 years ago and at that time, you couldn't have contemplated all of the things that we're asking groups to do today. So that's why we need to invoke this theory of creative destruction and find ways to improve our products, to extend our products so that we can look at those impacts. So it could be abuse in high traffic areas, it could be improving fire ratings, it could be supporting infrastructure such as solar. And so you really need to be looking at product development and innovation in the context of how things are changing, and what people are asking for their roofing systems and the challenges that we're seeing in the market and how do you mitigate them?

Heidi J Ellsworth: And how do you do it? Well, speaking of challenges and what's happening out there, going back to what we were talking about about the inspections on the roof, Tony said, "You must have a ..." Tony Radar, thank you. "You must have manufacturer approval for overburden on solar, which outlines in approval received the requirement for inspection." Hopefully that made sense when I read that. Yes. "And then get a system letter for the project early on for manufacturer to ensure compliance with manufacturer and solar needs," which is great. And then we have Koji. "If the roof has observable issues such as ponding, will the installation of solar panels require prior repair of the roof prior to installation of the system or is it defined on a case by case basis or by the space?" Greg?

Greg Hudson: So, I'll jump into that one. Anytime you have significant ponding, then something's not performing as designed and that's where engaging the manufacturer and engaging ... Whether it's a facilities maintenance or like that, you do want to make sure that you're collaborating with the right people to ensure that that group is performing as designed before you add any type of solar. I am not an electrical engineer or an electrician, but electricity and ponding water typically don't play very well. But overall, just make sure that roof is performing as designed first, as well.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah, that makes sense.

Ieuan Compton: Just to add to that, if I may. Yes.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Please.

Ieuan Compton: Greg's absolutely right. Electricity, water don't mix. If you've got a ponding, you've already got a roof that, as Greg rightly says, isn't performing as it's designed. If you are now going to put a solar panel array on top that's designed to last 25, 30 years on a roof that's already not working, that panel system's going to have to come off in a few years to get the roof replaced, anyway. So best practice, common sense economics would say repair the roof, do it properly, then put your solar panel on top.

Heidi J Ellsworth: And isn't that the time? I mean, that's the conversation you need to be having with the building owner or the facility manager, because they need to understand, "Hey, this is going to cost you a lot more money in a couple of years than it does right now to do it right."
Ieuan Compton: It's not even a long term plan. It's a relatively short-term plan. If you've got ponding, then within 10 years you are going to be taking that roof off, anyway.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah, yeah. Jason Stanley, good morning Jason. So glad you're here. He says, "I love this conversation today. The number one specified roof assembly on big box facilities. The latest roof footprint in the U.S. is 45 mil TPO directly over ISO. Not only will the roof membrane not last as long as solar without the cover board, the entire building is open to a catastrophic," I can't talk, "fire and loss. Most roofs in the U.S. Are not solar ready." Thank you, Jason. And that's a big issue in that, Greg, if contractors are going out and they're reroofing, is everything going to need to be torn off to get it solar ready? What should contractors be talking to their building owners about?

Greg Hudson: And that's where having those conversations upfront, and unfortunately, in some of those instances that Jason's talking about, I believe the term's you can't see the forest through the trees. I mean, yeah. I want to be renewable, but you're not starting with it with a roof system that's ready for what you're trying to add on. They're making a short-term budgetary decision on a roof system and then adding something very expensive later, and Ieuan already touched on it. They're going to be taking that off.

And listen, we never want a fire to cause ... Human safety is first and foremost before anything. They're trying to do the right thing, but they're only going halfway there, so it's really working with them to understand what the needs of the roof are at the time with the budget they have, but what do they foresee in the life cycle, that approximately 20 years of that roof system, that they would like to do. And unfortunately, we've had some conversations, as well, where I want to go PV and they put a roof system on that was not necessarily PV and they look at things like certain codes, which are the bare minimum we can achieve this, but it isn't a good roof system to start. And unfortunately, we're going to have folks that make those budgetary decisions that are a bit short-sighted, but we've seen that they pay for it more in the long run and hopefully they don't have to pay for it with significant damage or loss of life.

Ieuan Compton: Sorry, if I could just jump in very quickly and add to that, I mean, Jason's question is a brilliant question. It sets us up quite nicely. The insurance companies, so the people who insure your building, are going to stop you putting PV on top of that roof, because there isn't a non-combustible board underneath the PV array, we've got numerous examples from the big insurance, from AXA, one of the world's biggest insurance, that they don't want a PV panel installed unless it's got a non-combustible board, like a gypsum board, underneath it to help protect the roof. So if you are putting a solar PV roof on that construction, the ISO with the 45 mil TPL on top, the chances are your insurance company's going to make you take it off at some point, anyway.

Greg Hudson: One other thing, and that's, again, where that system manufacturer, you have the insurance company on one side when you think about the premium, the impact, everything that goes along with that, what you're covered, what you're not. But at the same time, that roofing system manufacturer is a key partner in that discussion because let's say you're not re-roofing, but the roof is past the time period in which you should be installing a PV system. It's still performing, but they still have a life cycle associated with them, so bringing them into the conversation is so important.

Heidi J Ellsworth: As I'm listening to you, and you touched on it perfect, Ieuan, because I was like, when you are looking at all of the factors that are pushing on this, insurance companies wanting one thing, corporate sustainability programs wanting another thing, regulations and government, which we know it's going to become more and more. I mean, that's not something that's going to go away. And we're going to be, just like what you were talking about in Europe, this is going to happen.

And so now, as a contractor, really you almost need to be thinking, I know this might sound a little extreme, but you really have my wheels turning. But as a contractor, you really almost need to be having, to Tony's point, some sort of letter or some sort of Contractual item that says, "If you want a solar ready roof, this is what needs to be done. If you do not, I do not. I am not liable," or something. Trent Cottony, if you're watching, I know I probably said that totally wrong, but it seems like that is going to become more and more important for contractors to be thinking about as they're bidding these big box facilities and they're doing these large roofs. Ieuan, what do you think?

Ieuan Compton: Yeah, I totally agree with you. I think what will happen is that we will see a number of solar PV installations go on to existing routes. There will be an issue, let's hope it's not violent, let's just say maybe it's insulation compression or something. We can contract that's called out, and they go, "Well, we didn't build it with the expectation there'd be a PV roof on it." And they will then go back and they'll be changing their warranties and their terms and conditions. And I think we'll have a number of, unfortunately, legislation, insurance requirements, they're all built because something has gone wrong and I think something will go wrong. And the companies will go, "Whoa, need to protect ourselves on this." And they will change their terms and conditions, they will change their warranties, they will change the way they behave and how they describe their roofs. So, absolutely.

John Mulcahy: I think one of the common themes, if you look at the motivations behind the insurance companies, behind the regulators, behind the building owners, I see a common theme which is that the future is unknown and unknowable and we're looking to put on a structure that is intended to last 30 years. And so, I think it's important to, without knowing what the future entails, is to have something that's got some structures, some durability, some versatility so that it can accommodate what is to come.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah. And so it's really thinking this mitigating risk, but thinking forward. And so John, to that point, there is going to ... I mean, we're not going to see this push for sustainability and for energy initiatives from what we were talking about before. I mean, I know one of the largest facility management companies out there Prologics was on last year and saying that they are going to carbon-free by 2030. So that huge push is coming from so many different things. So your advice to contractors on understanding when they're talking to, I mean, these forces that are kind of in between regulation, fire, insurance, sustainability policies, plans to get there, how do they maneuver that? I mean, what's some of your advice?

John Mulcahy: Yeah, and that's a huge challenge. Ieuan talked about some numbers in terms of estimates of the amount of PV installations that are going to take place per year over the next several years. It is a huge number of installations. So we're talking about a lot of square footage, we're talking about a lot of routes. And so I think, building managers, contractors need to be thinking about this now, because they are making decisions that are going to have ramifications for several decades. And so I think that they need to be looking at their experts, at their advisors, trying to understand the trends of where things are going so that they are making good long-term decisions so that they're not going to have to redo some of the work that's being done, now. So it's really kind of trying to look ahead and making decisions that can be as versatile as possible to accommodate any number of potential outcomes.

Heidi J Ellsworth: That's interesting. We are getting to, I can't believe this hour has gone, we did have a comment about a great vinyl collection there. I knew it'd be Melissa. We are getting kind of towards the end. So, to really bring this together. So Greg, working with the design community, working with manufacturers, working with building owners, also, you work with a lot of contractors, you work with a lot of building managers, facility managers or building owners. What are some of the things, what is the recipe to make a solar offering make sense for contractors?

Greg Hudson: Yeah, it really comes down to scope, understanding, really, the vision for the owner. The owner at the end of the day is the one deciding what they want, whether it's an internal goal, an incentive or a regulation. They understand what they want. But getting those people, all of those people at the table, at the end of the day, it all comes channels back through the contractor. And the contractor plays the biggest role in this because, if they get a roof leak, they don't call the solar installer and say, "I got a roof leak." They call the roofing contractor.

So I always go back to getting the right people at the table ensuring we got the right products, the proper way of looking at it and a lot of times, John brought up thinking something that may impact decades thinking that long term, well may not be in that conversation. Whoever you're dealing with may have a bunch of short-term conversations. But pitching out there the long-term and challenging it out that way is so important. And then I always go back to, really, the foundations to a good roof system. And the last thing, this life cycle come down to sound designs, good building practices and quality products and pitching to them that this is why having these three things together are so important. If you take any one of those out, then your roof is not going to be as resilient and durable as it should be.

Heidi J Ellsworth: And there's been studies, right? There's been studies on the fact that actually using cover boards creates cost savings over the life of the roof. Talk about that a little bit.

Greg Hudson: Yes. So, we commissioned a study with FMI and they found building owners with data, data on the roof systems, multiple geographies, multiple system types and roofs with cover boards, roofs without cover board. And the most staggering fact is that, when a roof did not have a cover board, it only lasted its life expectancy 52% of the time. When a roof had a cover board, it lasted its life expectancy 86% of the time.

Actually, in broader terms that it actually extended the life of the roof for four years. And that's so important. That's not saying you shouldn't replace something past its warranty or anything like that. There's so many people that go into that. And tying that also in with the preventative maintenance program to know how your roof is performing, not just keeping the rain out, but from an energy efficiency and everything else. But I look at those staggering facts and that's without the impacts of PV. You add PV, you add increased amounts of foot traffic, increased amounts of need for fire resistance, as well. So it just screams that a rigid cover board is one way, one component in a roof system, that could significantly impact that roof.

Heidi J Ellsworth: In the long term. And these are the kind of conversations to a point we were talking earlier, John, but these are the kind of conversations using these studies, showing how the cover board is going to extend that life, that contractors should be having with obviously the facility managers. But sometimes even if they can, and I don't know if they can, but if they can get the sustainability executive, talk a little bit about can contractors even push that through?

John Mulcahy: I think not only can they, but I think they are in many cases, as well. I think there is a market for building space and potential buyers or tenants are making decisions in terms of where they want to be on a variety of criteria. And I think that sustainability attributes more and more are becoming a key consideration in making those decisions. And I think I talked about this a little bit earlier, but there are aspects of a good sound roof and there are aspects of solar energy that make certain buildings more attractive to potential customers, and yet, could increase occupancy, it could increase lease rates. And so they already are an important consideration in making these decisions, and I think the contractors and the builders and others in the value chain should absolutely be thinking about the sustainability considerations when making important long-term decisions like these.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah, it's all going to come together. Ieuan, any last thoughts?
Ieuan Compton: Well, only to recap what has sort of been said. It's quite clear that we know what's going to happen over the next few years. We know there's going to be this massive push for PV. We know that comes with a number of risks and we know the use of a cover board, assuming it's non-combustible, can contribute towards mitigating the risks should those things happen. We also don't know what we don't know.

So there may be a technology coming in a few years that is completely different and we can't design for that today, but we can design in a bit of resilience. We can look at the overall structure today and go, "Eh. As long as it doesn't burn or conduct electricity, and it does this and it does ..." You know. There are certain things that we can make decisions about, and we can invest in the fabric today for something that might come or might not come. And that investment isn't lost. Because even if that something doesn't come along, you've still got a much more hardware and more resilient roof that's going to live up to the rigors that, if we don't chuck something on it, mother nature will because it is only going one direction, this. I'm starting here thinking, "I hope my internet connection keeps out, because I've got a thunderstorm. I can hear it coming."
And that's going to become more and more common. And all of these things impact our rules. And as Greg rightly said, a roof's job is to stay on the building, is to keep the building occupants and contents safe and dry. So just designing resilience on day one.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Durability. [inaudible 00:56:33].

John Mulcahy: [inaudible 00:56:33].

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah, sorry, go ahead.

John Mulcahy: Versatility in that resilience is so important. Georgia Pacific helped to support the renovation of a historic home in Roswell, which is a little bit north of Georgia, which included putting a PV system on top of the 1841 building. But what's interesting is, in that building, they've got in their lobby, the original solar panels that the Carter administration put into the warehouse and that panel is probably about this thick and weighs a ton and has an efficiency that's just a small fraction of what is sitting on that building today. And so things are changing so quickly and we just need to be prepared for as many eventualities as we possibly can.

Heidi J Ellsworth: I mean, we are building the roofs of tomorrow. As you said, we're one roof away from some really big initiatives. So gentlemen, thank you so much. Greg, any last words?

Greg Hudson: No. We have so many great contractors in the U.S. and abroad that are having these conversations with building owners. If you're looking for help in discussing this, go to densdeck.com, reach out to one of our technical sales representatives across the country and in Europe, Mexico and Canada, as well, if you're working there or reach out to your system manufacturer, as well. Talk about non-combustible chips and cover boards like DensDeck roof boards.

Heidi J Ellsworth: That's so true. And that is perfect. That's the perfect thing I wanted to say. Get more information on this, work with these amazing gentlemen and all the team at Georgia Pacific. You can also find all this information on the Georgia Pacific directory, on Roofer's Coffee Shop, where you can get in touch, get all the information you need to be solar-ready going forward. Thank you everybody, so much for being here today and a special thank you to Georgia Pacific for the topic, for the thought leadership, for really bringing some forefront.

I hope you gentlemen are seeing the chat. There's so many people saying thank you and it was great. So thank you all for that feedback and for being active in the chat. That is so great. I would love it to have you all join us again next week. This is going to be August 8th, exploring the future of renewable energy. So we're on a roll. We're going to keep going, talking about this and bringing it to the industry. So definitely join us next week and thank you everybody. Share this out. It will be available within 24 hours. Again, thank you so much gentlemen, and thank you for being on the show.

John Mulcahy: Thanks guys.

Greg Hudson: Thanks guys.

Ieuan Compton: Thank you

Outro: Everybody, have a great day. We'll be seeing you next week on Coffee Conversations.