Lane Reed & Tony Vieira – PVC Benefits, Opportunities and Training - PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Lane Reed and Tony Vieira from Mule-Hide Products. You can read the interview below or listen to the podcast.

Intro: Welcome to Roofing Road Trips with Heidi. Explore the roofing industry through the eyes of a long-term professional within the trade. Listen for insights, interviews and exciting news in the roofing industry today.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Hello and welcome to another Roofing Road Trips from RoofersCoffeeShop. My name is Heidi Ellsworth, and today we're talking about one of our favorite subjects, training, and the importance of training. We just can't emphasize it enough, especially when you're talking about roofing respect. That means great training. So we've asked the experts from Mule-Hide to join us today to talk a little bit about what they're doing with training and specifically around PVC. I'm really excited about this. So I am thrilled to welcome Lane Reed and Tony Vieira to this Roofing Road Trips. Welcome gentlemen.

Lane Reed: Hey. How are you Heidi?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I am great. I'm so excited to have you here. So let's start out with some introductions before we dive in. So Lane, can you introduce yourself, tell us what you do with Mule-Hide?

Lane Reed: Yeah. My name is Lane Reed and I'm the regional director for Mule-Hide Products for the Southwest. I've been in the roofing industry for a little over 20 years now. Different capacities, but for the most part, I've been a manufacturer's rep. I've worked with a manufacturing company that actually sold products direct to roofing contractors, and then I've also been an independent rep. And so I not only had commercial based products, but also some residential type products as well. And I have done some sales with commercial roofing organizations as well. So that's the stint of my background. But I've been with Mule-Hide now going on for about seven years.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That's great. I love it. Once we get into roofing, we don't go anywhere else.

Lane Reed: That is right. I'm here to stay. They got to kick me out.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I know. We love it. Tony, please introduce yourself and tell us what you do with Mule-Hide.

Tony Vieira: Thanks, Heidi, and thanks, Lane. So Tony Vieira, I'm the product segment manager here at Mule-Hide. So ultimately in charge of product lines that really encompass all three, I'd say, single-ply membranes. So that's PVC, EPDM and TPO, as well as polyiso and cover boards among other accessory components. And I've served in the industry as a field service tech representative or service representative, which consisted of really primarily inspections for warranty claim investigations, job startups and job site visit assistance for the contractors. And then from there, I became a technical trainer. So, I trained on the installation of EPDM, TPO and PVC membranes, installation cover board components, adhesives and other things that would be necessary for a whole system and warranty.

And then from there, I went to the marketing side or into a marketing role, I should say, that was still very technical, but it was as a PVC product specialist. And so from there, I trained contractors and internal folks in the industry on PVC systems specifically. And I was largely involved in areas like product and field-testing, troubleshooting efforts, literature creation, new product development. And that's about an eight-year history with that timeline I just gave.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Very cool. I love it. Interesting. And I love how it all comes together, right? In putting all this together. So, Lane, before we start talking a little bit more about the training and PVC, tell us a little bit about Mule-Hide, a little bit of its history.

Lane Reed: We're super proud of our history and what the brand stands for. So for those that don't know, the actual Mule-Hide brand has been established since 1906. The product category, there was roofing products. And back in those days, the Mule-Hide brand was known to have products that performed and lasted. So you can only imagine in 1906, if you got something right, people were going to continue to use it. And so it carried a very good name back then. So fast-forward to 1985, the present Mule-Hide, that's when we kicked off. The brand was purchased to become the current version of what it is today.

And so in 1995, Mule-Hide rolled out with single-ply accessories, maintenance items, things like that. And since then, we've grown. And I think one of the proud things that we like to offer to our contractor bases is our product diversity. So since then, we now have over 3,000 SKUs of commercial roofing products to offer a contractor building owner architect. So we're very proud to have that diverse product offering and we've been able to bolt on products necessary that we feel add value to our organization and our customer base. And we've even recently gotten into steep slope high temp underlayments and things like that. So we're very proud of the offerings that we can bring to the table for our contractors.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I love it. Such a strong brand. I mean, it's such a great company. So thank you. And really, you said rolling out single-ply. You've been on top of this and the company, Mule-Hide, really been a leader, but let's talk a little bit about PVC. I mean, we are seeing the growth of PVC in the roofing industry year over year. And I'm just curious, and, Tony, I'd love to start with you. What are you seeing?

Tony Vieira: So, we're absolutely seeing that trend in the data. If you look at the volume in the PVC market sold, really going back year over year while certain years have seen a minor dip from the previous year, for example, it's definitely more growth year over year. And that's created an upward trend, certainly, that's difficult to ignore or not to take notice of, right? So 2022 was actually approaching 800 million square feet in the market at the end of it, and then 2023, which has certainly been a down year for the single-ply industry in comparison, but should still be easily in the six to 700 million square foot range, right? Which back in 2010, it was around the mid 400 million square foot range for the industry. So that just gives you an idea. It's a big and growing piece of pie out there, and I'm sure a lot of contractors who hear those numbers would like to sink their teeth into it.

So then I think comes the question of why is that growth actually happening or what's driving that growth, right? So going back for the years or over the years, PVC's been a highly specified product, meaning it's those working on a project on behalf of the building owner. So we're essentially talking consultants or architects here who specify PVC membrane be used on a project. And one simple reason for this is that the specifier community, which, of course, has a tremendous impact on the market, has been given significant attention and focus when it comes to PVC materials and membranes. So that has paid off well for PVC in the industry.

And then there's a number of other features and benefits, I'd say, that have been very much sold to the specifier community such as good chemical resistance with it in the single-ply membrane world, great option on buildings that need that resistance. So buildings like airports with the jet fuels manufacturing facilities or certain manufacturing facilities and others. And then it also has really the best fire resistance, actually exceptional. It's actually self-extinguishing. So if you were to remove whatever the flame source is, the membrane will actually self-extinguish. And obviously fire resistance is an attractive feature on any building type, but particularly projects where this is specifically helpful as an added safety net are those with solar panels. You can think of electrical lines and equipment, restaurants where greases and oils, for example, can be exhausted onto the roof. And so we've all heard about grease fires, for example. Obviously, like I said, PVC pretty exceptional for that selling point. So beyond that, just any building or project where fire resistance is, I'd say particularly sought for the safety of the occupants and it could be a great fit.

So circling back though, another reason it tends to be, I think, a popular choice among the spec driven or the specifier community is simply history of proven performance. So reinforced PVC, meaning a scrim reinforcement in the product has had a solid reputation of performance for over 50 years. And what a lot of specifiers really like is that it's overall the same basic formulation today, right? They love that part of it.

So in short, while the benefits of the product can absolutely be sold, I think, to a building owner in and of themselves, even on residential and low slope projects, for example, PVC is often used there. I think it's important to really emphasize to those looking to take a bite out of the PVC market that within the commercial roofing low slope market, which is a huge part of it, obviously, the specify community and those relationships have been key and are key, I think, going forward for growth of the market.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I think that's really interesting. And to be honest, we talk about all the benefits and features of PVC and everything, but to really kind of hone in, Tony, on the specifier community, I think that's so true. I mean, it's something that people have been working on for a long time and has really become ingrained. So if contractors want to kind of start installing more PVC knowing that it's being specified and the growth of the market share, Lane, let's talk about that a little bit. How can contractors get involved? How can they start installing PVC? And how do they get the training for that?

Lane Reed: So certainly at Mule-Hide, we're a strong training and development type manufacturer. We enjoy really getting in and getting our hands in the bucket or on the membrane, on training decks, things like that. So we encourage contractors, whether it be our current contractor base or contractors looking to get into it, reach out to us and let us know. And there's a territory manager in every single region. We do perform multiple hands-on trainings, whether they're one-offs or within our formal training facilities, and things like that. But it's just taking that leap of faith. As a contractor, I think, diversifying yourself within the product categories is very important and smart. Back in the... We say the day or whatever it may be, it was BUR, mop-grades, [inaudible 00:12:14] things like that and those are all still great options that are out there, but there were a lot of contractors that were not necessarily willing to make that change over to the single-ply community and membranes. And unfortunately, some of those contractors didn't necessarily make it.

So I think the tail is there is that if you're not a contractor willing to grow and jump into some of these other categories like PVC, then you can kind of stall your own growth efforts, quite frankly. And so with proper training, partnering up with the right manufacturer, I think a contractor could easily jump into this space. Installing PVC versus installing TPO is very similar. So the gap there in the margin in terms of learning are very small. So we feel like that's something that we do very well, not to mention one and only national vendor, which is ABC Supply.

So some of the issues that may come from jumping into that PVC market is availability. Well, we have that strong relationship with our partner. And so at Mule-Hide, we're striving to make sure that we have PVC in certain markets to where those products and materials are readily available for your 50, 60, 800 square projects because a lot of these are restaurant-based. And so we want to try to make sure we have that partnership with contractor distribution and Mule-Hide as a manufacturer to make sure they can get that product when necessary and when it's the right option. So it's just a matter of dipping your toes in the water and hey, at Mule-Hide, we're very willing to help you get into that water. So come on.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Well, and I think it's about relationships too, right? Finding the right relationships. And, Tony, you've been doing this, working through it. As contractors want to start adding to their product lines, they want to add PVC to their product lines, I think it's so important to have reps like you, to have product managers, to have people who can really help you make that journey instead of just ordering it and hitting the roof.

Lane Reed: Right.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: So, Tony, maybe sharing a little bit of what are some of the special requirements or things that they need to know about installing PC and also about kind of continuing on Lane's on how important building that relationship is?

Tony Vieira: Totally. One thing I would say in terms of the special requirements, and just to echo what Lane said, I mean, it is very similar to TPO. I mean, both of the membranes just for contractors who are nervous. I mean, the membranes are heat-welded. So that essentially you're fusing the material to itself with heat is essentially how it's installed. And it's the same equipment that you would use, same hand welders, walker robots for TPO as what it is for PVC, right? So in that sense, they're very similar, a little more heat to weld PVC than TPO. But in terms of especially your larger projects, especially warranted projects, they're very similar too in the sense that you're going to do a test weld with what's called the automatic walker welder when it comes to both PVC and TPO. So that's the same too, right?

So essentially, it's simulating the weld that's going to take place on that roof before you go and weld every seam on the roof with that robot. You pull it apart and what you're looking for is material or scrimmed lamination and in essence showing that the welded area is stronger than the material itself is, right? And that's how you do either system when it comes to either PVC or TPO. Now, hand-welded areas, this is where there's a little bit of a difference between the two. And actually, it's kind of, I would say, in PVCs favor because while it takes a little bit more peak, or excuse me, more heat to weld PVC than TPO, PVC actually gives essentially a little bit of what you'd call bleed out. It's where that under-ply actually bleeds out a little bit at that seam area when you're hand-welding.

And so you don't necessarily need to see that with the automatic welder that many roofers may know about. That's where the test weld comes into play. There's more weight with that machine. But when it comes to hand-welded sections, that's obviously where you're more prone to human error. That is where you want to see this bleed out. And again, that's where you see that under-ply kind of spilling out. You don't see that on TPO, you don't want to see that on TPO or you shouldn't, or you're applying too much heat, right? So what that does, or the benefit there is that it gives the applicator, the contractor a visual feedback that they're getting a good weld when it comes to those hand-welded areas. So a major benefit when it comes to PVC.

But in terms of that to similarities, I mean, adhered mechanically-fastened membrane systems, induction welding, I mean, those are the same between the two membranes. And then differences, you can get away with a little more when it comes to pressure sensitive like your tape options when it comes to TPO than PVC. But Mule-Hide does have a very nice offering or a product that very few manufacturers offer out there for actually stripping an edge metal if contractors are familiar with that. That gives a lot more color options with edge metal on the roof that you can use essentially a tape product with Mule-Hide's PVC.

Different cleaner, but both contact adhesives. The difference in contact adhesives, I would say, would be generally for TPO, you'd be looking at that adhesive to be tacky, should have little to no tack when it's flashed off and you're in that window to apply that membrane into the substrate. But with PVC, there's really little to no tack. And that kind of throws roofers off sometimes because obviously, if they're used to TPO, they're like, "Hey, why is this thing going from wet to dry?"

And then last, I would just say, the other thing with PVC to keep in mind, especially for those looking to maybe use it on residential or areas like that, is asphalt and PVC. Even though it's very chemically resistant, asphalt is one thing that PVC doesn't get along with, right? So there has to be a separator layer between the two there. And then I would say one of the sources for confusion though is that they do look very similar too. They are very similar to one another in terms of how they look.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And so how do you tell when you're up on the roof the difference between TPO and PVC?

Tony Vieira: So, I mean, you have to know which one obviously is which when it comes to making any necessary repairs. So one of the ways to tell would be roll codes. Some of the times, those might be covered up at the seam location, but you might have to cut into a seam to find it. But there's ways around it. I'll get to that in a second. But if they're still there and they're visible outside the scene, that's a great way to tell. Obviously, if you reported that to a manufacturer, they could tell you right off the bat if that's PVC or TPO. We could tell you a lot of other things about it too, when it was made and all that stuff. But another one outside of that is PVC will actually smoke a little more than TPO, and the big giveaway is that it'll have a chlorine smell when you actually apply heat to it. So TPO has a minor odor, I guess you could say, when you apply heat to it, but there's a very obvious distinct chlorine smell with PVC that you're going to notice.

And so another way to tell is just try welding a membrane to it, right? If you take TPO membrane and you're going to try to weld it to PVC, it's not really going to have much take to it, right? So that's probably the best sure way to know. Obviously, if it does take and really welds, you got the same material you're working with. But you have to obviously know. This one comes up all the time because you have to know which one it is to make any repairs.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Right.

Tony Vieira: So, I don't know if Lane has anything to add to that.

Lane Reed: The only other thing is depending on the job, I mean, if you absolutely have to cut into a membrane, a lot of time the PVC membranes have a different bottom side color. TPOs pretty much universally are black underneath. A lot of the PVCs have more of a gray underneath, at least ours does for sure. But that's the only other way. But we would obviously urge each and every contractor to be extremely careful, always get acceptance if you have to do that. If you're there to provide a re-roof budget or something like that, then you're always going to ask the building owner, "Hey, I would like to core this roof because I need to identify what this roof is, what's in it, what's below it, what I'm attaching to." So sometimes when you get that little core, you could flip it over and maybe see that color difference and things like that.

And just to harken back a little bit on Tony's, the termination details and an edge, I like to touch on that a little bit in regards to the residential market. I think that's a key factor here, especially if you're working with custom home builders and things like that. The only other real way to terminate at a true drip edge is with PDC-coated metal, which only comes in white, tan or gray, or you have to roll the membrane down and do like a [inaudible 00:22:51] bar with... There's cut pieces that you can dress that up and things like that, but I don't know how visually pleasing those are. Works on a commercial, fine because people probably don't care. But on the residential side, that's somebody home.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Right.

Lane Reed: And so, they want pretty, they want beautiful. And so having a PVC with the cover strip tape detail, I think is a real leading factor that could separate yourself in the field when you're thinking about PVC on the residential market. So really key factor there in looking at some termination details and things like that.
Tony Vieira: Totally.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I want to kind of take that because you said this a couple of times and I think it's really good, but a lot of roofing companies have very strong service and maintenance programs. And so they're going out and they're repairing. If the roof is gone, of course, they're giving bids for new roofs, but they're doing a lot of repairs all the time. And so just talk a little bit about that, about getting up on that roof, doing repairs, making sure everything's going. I find this fascinating how you navigate, is it TPO? Is it PVC? What's going on here? And making sure you're doing the right things. And, Lane-

Tony Vieira: I could start-

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Tony, yeah.

Tony Vieira: ...that one if you want, Lane. Yeah, that's fine. I'll take that at least start. So again, I mean, more similarities with it than not, right? Once you establish which material you're actually looking at or actually dealing with on that roof, welding a new section of membrane at a repair area or over a repair area is obviously going to be the best option for the roof. And so one thing that needs to be done, generally, if that roof or that membrane is pretty aged, just trying to weld the new membrane over it is not going to generally be a great weld, right? You have to clean it and you have to clean it well. So just a rag, for example, on an aged membrane, I'm not going to say it won't work, but you got to really scrub it basically.

So I really recommend some sort of an agitating, like a scrub pad, right? Like a Scotch-Brite material to really get that cleaner and actually clean that area really well, make sure it's really dry, but that's for both membranes, TPO and PVC. And then once it's clean, you should be able to weld over top of it. If there are potentially issues, it's just the membrane itself, it won't take on the top layer.

One trick that a lot of applicators may not know about, again, for TPO or PVC, is what's called an under-weld, where you essentially take... If you have to cut out an area where there's a patch, you would cut that area out and then you would cut the patch, obviously, bigger than that area, but you actually tack it under that field membrane essentially. So you're actually welding to the underside, right? Because the underside hasn't seen the aging that the top side has. You may have to clean off the adhesives in that, but great little nifty trick if you're running into issues welding to that top layer, right?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah.

Tony Vieira: And then really the biggest difference there, again, I would just say, generally if you're doing a repair, you're hand-welding, so you're going to be looking for that bleed out that I was referring to on PVC versus TPO.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I love it. This podcast has been a training in itself. I've learned so much. This is excellent. I just love the information. Anybody who's listening to this, be sure to share this throughout your company because this is just excellent information. So let's kind of bring this home and talk about... They've listened to this, they understand all this what we're talking about, but now hands-on. We're a hands-on industry. How can they get training with Mule-Hide to do this, to really kind of take that step in the new year and start installing or repairing or just being more aware overall of PVC and TPO? So, Lane, talk to me about trainings, scheduling. How can they do it?

Lane Reed: The easiest way is get in touch with us and you can either go to our website to identify the territory manager within your location. If you happen to have a relationship with ABC Supply, you could reach out to your local ABC Supply and ask who is the local Mule-Hide territory manager. So, the guys in the field, that's their title, called territory manager, and they will gladly provide the territory manager's phone number, contact information for the contractor to reach out to or that ABC rep will pass the information of the contractor onto the Mule-Hide rep, and we will contact them to get that process rolling.

There's several training options that we provide. So, we do currently have three formal training centers that we have roof decks in place, and it's a full formal two-day class that's in Beloit, Wisconsin, Avondale, New Jersey and Orlando, Florida. So those are the three options. What we consider the Southwest is getting one soon, and then we will have one in the West as well. I'm hoping in my region in Southwest, that's probably going to be in the Dallas-Fort Worth area coming in 2024, we hope, but we have access to these other three training centers as well. And we typically will hold those once a quarter for contractors, but that's not the only place we can do our trainings. If the contractor has a facility themselves, we will gladly come to their facility and hold a training center right there in their conference room warehouse. We've done them. The ABC folks are very gracious with their space as well-

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah.

Lane Reed: ...and they will allow us to do that. Every territory manager sometimes will just have sort of a... You'll see flyers on the ABC doors and things like that where we'll just do a, "Hey, we're going to do TPO or PVC or EPDM," depending on the region. Maybe it's a coating's training. We do those at the contractor's discretion, and those are kind of an all swim where it's just, hey, we'll invite any and everybody that just wants to come get an understanding of whatever the product training session is going to be at that time. So there's multiple ways for us to do it. And again, at Mule-Hide, territory managers pride themselves on being that professional resource for commercial roofing and training and development.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah.

Lane Reed: I mean, that's what we do, that's our value, is being able to take that contractor and move them into some of these spaces. If there's any hesitancy, ultimately it's their call. But we feel confident once they have the confidence and the resource behind them that they can go and perform this work at any time. And it's baby steps, it's fine. We encourage that. We never want to get somebody in over their head. So please reach out to either your ABC rep. Go onto our website, mulehide.com, and search out your local territory manager and let us come out and get something set up for you.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I love it. And it is perfect timing, right? Getting ready for 2024, this is the time to diversify your business. Or even if you're already doing PVC, just get a little refresher course. It works great, and build that relationship.

Lane Reed: That's it. And just to touch on a little bit, just realize that when we were talking about repairs earlier, as Tony mentioned, the best repairs for membranes is a weld to weld type repair. That's what we always want to see. But there are sort of non-destructive options out there as well, especially in wet and damp conditions. So keep in mind, Mule-Hide has all of those repair mastic options. We have wet dry options that can go down in quarter inch or an inch of water with our repair hero products. So there are things you can do to stop that leak in the midst of a rainstorm and then come back and investigate, and then you could do long-term patches and repairs and welds and things like that over the top of that. So I just wanted to touch on that briefly. There's just a whole litany of maintenance products that Mule-Hide has to provide, whether it be PVC, TPO or EPDM, modified repairs as well.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Lane, and Tony, that sounds like another podcast to me.

Tony Vieira: Sounds good.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I think we need to do it on that. All kinds of repair options. I like that.

Lane Reed: Stop this one. We'll start another one. I'm ready.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Okay. That's perfect. That sounds great. I love it. Well, gentlemen, thank you so much. So informational, educational. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your time today and all your wisdom.

Tony Vieira: Thank you.

Lane Reed: Thank you [inaudible 00:32:41]. We appreciate the opportunity.

Tony Vieira: That's great.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Thank you. And thank you all for listening. Be sure to check out the Mule-Hide directory on RoofersCoffeeShop. You can find all this information there, also how to get in touch with them so you can get your training going for 2024. Please also check out all of our podcasts under the read, listen, watch navigation under Roofing Road Trips, or on your favorite podcast channel. Be sure to subscribe and set those notifications so you don't miss a single episode. We'll be seeing you next time on Roofing Road Trips.

Outro: Make sure to subscribe to our channel and leave a review. Thanks for listening. This has been Roofing Road Trips with Heidi from the RoofersCoffeeShop.