Justin Koscher - Decarbonizing the Built Environment - PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Justin Koscher, president of Polyisocyanurate Insulation Manufacturers Association (PIMA). You can read the interview below or listen to the podcast. 

Welcome to Roofing Road Trips with Heidi. Explore the roofing industry through the eyes of a long-term professional within the trade. Listen for insights, interviews, and exciting news in the roofing industry today.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Hello and welcome to another Roofing Road Trips from RoofersCoffeeShop. This is Heidi Ellsworth and I am here today with Justin Koscher talking about some really cool initiatives that the associations of our industry have been doing. So, Justin, welcome to the show.

Justin Koscher: Thank you so much for having me.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Now, Justin, before we dive into these initiatives that you've really been leading, first of all, can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your career in roofing?

Justin Koscher: Sure. So Justin Koscher, I currently serve as president, which is an executive director position at the Polyisocyanurate Insulation Manufacturers Association, most people know us as PIMA. I've been with PIMA since January 2017, so just coming up on six years. And prior to joining PIMA, I worked at the American Chemistry Council with their Polyurethanes group. PIMA in the polyiso industry were one of our groups under that umbrella. So about a decade of experience in the polyurethane industry.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Wow. Excellent. I mean, just even saying it sometimes is a little bit challenging.

Justin Koscher: So why we call it ISO or polyiso.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That's right. PIMA is just a little bit easier. Well, can you tell us a little bit about PIMA? And you are doing so many great things for the industry.

Justin Koscher: Yeah. So we're celebrating our 35th anniversary as an association started in 1987. Our members are manufacturers of polyiso insulation used in roofing, wall, other applications. Our manufacturers produced the product both here in the United States and Canada. We also have raw material suppliers that provide chemical ingredients, facers, other components to our manufacturers. And then we have testing labs in other organizations that provide services to our manufacturers. So we just wrapped up our annual meeting in Washington, DC before the Thanksgiving holiday, had a little 35th birthday celebration for the organization.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Now, and you do a lot of advocacy too. When you were in Washington, DC, are you doing that along with Roofing Day? Because I know you've been a real leader on that working DC.

Justin Koscher: Yeah, that's really where my experience is on advocacy at the federal and state level. PIMA actually has a rich history in advocacy. The organization was formed really as a reaction to the Montreal Protocol and the phase out of ozone depleting substances, the industry had to come together to work on shaping regulations that would, one, help the industry transition away from ozone depleting substances, but also do it in a way that didn't end the industry overnight as the US and other nations were quickly working to address those problems with ozone depletion and the hole in the ozone layer.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. Wow. Really, whenever I think of PIMA, I always think as a leader, I mean, they have always led the industry. Even when you and I sit together at NRCA meetings, you've brought so much richness to the roof pack and to everything. Roofing Day, we're always there together.

Justin Koscher: Yeah.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, it's very cool. Now, along that same lines, you have been working on industry studies to really... I mean, with the whole supply chain, everything that happened over the last couple of years, you've had some challenges, I know, but from outside looking at it, it really looks like you've taken such a proactive stance of, hey, let's get the information we need to really understand what's going on. Can you tell everybody about these studies?

Justin Koscher: Yeah. I mean, we've all faced headwinds over the past couple of years, both personally and professionally, but one thing that PIMA always strives to do is help our downstream customers in the broader industry understand the value proposition of polyiso and really what we sell, which is energy efficiency. So, in 2021, we started an initiative to update some older research that we had done almost a decade ago on looking at the cost effectiveness of taking an existing roof on a commercial building, and during a roof replacement, adding insulation to that roof so that that new roof complies with today's energy codes. But as the conversations have evolved over time and become focused on environmental measurements such as greenhouse gas savings, we also wanted to know what does that additional information mean, not only in energy cost savings, but also in environmental benefits. So, in 2021, we worked with a consulting firm ICF International to undertake a modeling exercise that looked at ASHRAE climate zones two through six.

We looked at four different prototype buildings that are used by energy modelers, commercial buildings, schools, standalone retail office buildings. And we asked ourselves, if we assume that these buildings are under insulated, what is the benefit of taking that insulation up to today's energy code levels? And what we found didn't necessarily surprised us, it sort of confirmed the value proposition for polyiso and energy efficient roof replacements. And so, we published that in November of last year. We've got the information up on our website, in fact, sheet form for those of you that aren't interested in long 30-page reports. But really did it as an initiative to continue to educate the marketplace and hopefully put information in roofer's hands, consultant's hands, who are the ones actually talking to building owners about the opportunity they have when their roof on their building is due for a replacement.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I mean, to build that up that we see the savings, it's out there all the time, and your reports put that together. So how is the response? What are you hearing back from the industry?

Justin Koscher: Yeah. I think it's helpful to have numbers to put with what you know to be true. What we're really excited on that study from 2021, and I think we'll talk a little bit about a more recent study that we did with other industry partners, we're really excited about some of the numbers that came back on school savings. Schools really outperform other commercial buildings in terms of potential energy savings, largely due to the way that they're constructed one or two stories, very large roofs to floor space. But just to throw out a couple of numbers from that 2021 study, we looked at a primary school in New York and upgrading that roof to today's energy codes would save that school about 10% annually in energy. When we shift over to Chicago, we see similar results, that same primary school saving about 9% in total energy each year that new roof is replaced. So those are dollars going back into school districts for much more valuable initiatives than paying high energy bills.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Right. And that's so important. That's what it's all about, getting the billing to work for them, not the other way around.

Justin Koscher: Absolutely. Absolutely. And the other thing we learned in the study, especially as you look into the northern climate zones, and we're starting to think about the ways that our buildings impact the environment. Most of the energy savings in this becomes a bigger deal as you move further north. A lot of the energy savings come from reduced natural gas, which we used to heat so many buildings. So as there's growing interest among policymakers and private sector to decarbonize, one thing that this study shows is something that people may not have thought of as a good opportunity. Roof replacements really offers a way to decarbonize the building stock through primarily reduced natural gas use for heating during the colder months.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That's amazing. What a great point to be able to bring up to building owners and facility managers and really talk about that, because that's something they can talk about to the taxpayers or whoever it may be.

Justin Koscher: Right. We know people aren't only paying attention to the balance sheet, but also to their environmental footprint these days. And that's true both for public and private sector building owners.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: It really is. It really is. So, in that, after your 2021 report, like you said, and we'll go over all this where everybody can get everything, as you're listening to this, you're going to want to have all this information, the fact sheet or the 30 pages. But you then took it to another step through COVID and into the material shortage space, working with other associations across the industry to do more studies. Tell us about that.

Justin Koscher: So I think everyone was really reevaluating their use of materials, asking themselves why are we using the materials, they're in such scarcity. So there were other like-minded associations that really thought now is a good time to double down on putting facts behind our value proposition. As we were facing those pandemic induced challenges, congress was also working to pass several milestone pieces of legislation that had huge building components. So, in late 2021, we saw the passage of the bipartisan infrastructure law that included a fairly robust component focused on making our buildings more sustainable, whether that be through adding insulation, using more renewables, renovating lighting systems to reduce energy use. And then in 2022 over the summer, we saw the Inflation Reduction Act resurrected and include really a massive climate component. And in that bill, again, we saw quite a bit of federal funding and other incentives for the improvement of buildings.

So when we began talking with our allied associations, we knew that there was going to be, one, a lot of competition for those dollars in clean energy. There are things that get all the attention, solar panels on rooftops, wind turbines, electrification, and heat pumps, which are all great technologies and have their place. But we feel that sometimes people get caught up in the shiny new thing and forget about the easy things that are right under their nose. So, one, we knew there was going to be a lot of competition for those dollars. Two, we wanted some tools that our market could use to educate their building owners on where they should be putting this funding when it becomes available. So we undertook a study again with ICF, with industry partners that looked on a much broader level, residential buildings, commercial buildings, and industrial facilities.

And we said, what are the benefits if we undertake common insulation, renovation projects in all of these buildings across the United States. For residential buildings, for your residential roofers that may do insulation improvements, our study looked at adding insulation in the attic, in crawl spaces and some other areas of the homes. For commercial buildings, we looked at a subset of commercial buildings that represent about 25% of the existing floor space in the US and we quantified the benefits of upgrading the roof insulation of those buildings. And then in certain building types, we looked at what you could do to add insulation to certain mechanical systems that are typically under insulated based on practices from when those buildings were initially constructed. And then probably just a side note for the roofers out there, but we looked at industrial facilities and what you could accomplish in terms of adding industrial insulation or piping insulation to reduce energy waste during those industrial processes. So it was really a macro study trying to quantify what opportunity is out there for us if we deploy these insulation technologies that we have at our fingertips today.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. Wow. Okay. How did it all turn out, and also mention who all was involved with it?

Justin Koscher: Right. So we undertook this with a lot of the other insulation associations, some names that may be familiar to your listeners. The North American Insulation Manufacturers Association, who represents manufacturers of fiberglass and mineral wool products. The Spray Polyurethane Foam Alliance, so SPFA who represents spray foam manufacturers, including in the roofing sector. The Structural Insulated Panel Association were also partners. And then we had some contractor groups that are involved in different aspects of the industry across residential and industrial insulation industries. So focusing on what is more in PIMA's lane on the commercial building side, energy efficient roof replacements, and a couple of the projects that you could complete with upgrading mechanical insulation, we found pretty staggering savings opportunities. So in terms of dollars saved over the life of those insulation improvements, so over the next 30 years, owners of those commercial buildings would save $65 billion in energy costs if they completed these common insulation upgrades. And we talked about schools a little bit earlier. Nearly half or almost $32 billion of those savings would go to the primary and secondary schools that we included in our study.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Wow. Wow. That's huge.

Justin Koscher: Huge. And on the environmental side, again, what we found in this study and the prior study, most of the savings come from reduced heating loads in the buildings, and predominantly in the US, we use natural gas to heat our commercial buildings. So the reduced natural gas use and overall reduced energy use translates into 338 million metric tons of carbon emissions. I know that doesn't mean much to people. So if we translate that, that's over 30 years, that's the equivalent of taking 2.4 million cars off the road each year, or the equivalent of eliminating three coal-fired power plants for the next 30 years. So if we think about all these things that are happening in our energy conversations, a lot of them politically charged.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yes.

Justin Koscher: No one has a bone to pick about saving energy. So we think this study can teach us a lot of things, which is, if we all agree on saving energy is a good thing, we have easily accessible solutions and products that we can deploy tomorrow to get to an end result that would benefit everybody.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: We make different. And people like data.

Justin Koscher: Yes.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: They like to see the real numbers. And I think that makes such a difference when you're talking to building owners or the government or private and public.

Justin Koscher: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. Wow. I can't believe that. Those are some huge numbers and great savings. And like you said, this isn't just about dollars, this is about sustainability and the contractors are talking about is like how important is sustainability practices, and they are very important to the public overall.

Justin Koscher: Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the questions that came out of the recent midterm elections and a trend that we've seen over the past couple of elections is that regardless of party affiliation, people agree that we should be taking steps to reduce our environmental impacts. And we've always called energy efficiency has always been that purple issue. If you're a Democrat or you're a Republican, everyone likes lower energy bills.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Right. Exactly.

Justin Koscher: And so we think that this study really helps, to your point, put some facts behind those claims for everyone, whether it be your home as a homeowner, the building that you own or work in commercially or for all those manufacturers out there that operate industrial facilities, how can you reduce your carbon footprint as manufacturers.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. Yeah. That is great. So what are some of your other plans going forward? What else are you looking at? What are some of the future trending that you've seeing?

Justin Koscher: So to your point about people love facts, one of the limitations of the studies that we've done so far is they're fairly high level. The recent study we did is a nationwide study, you can get some good detail on these prototypical buildings, you can get some great information in our studies about state level savings. So if you're interested in digging into the details, we've got state by state information. But it can be difficult to translate this information into what does it mean for my building that's located on Main Street in Springfield, Illinois. So one of our steps going forward is going to use the power of modeling to come up with some more specific scenarios around particular buildings, in particular locations that are undergoing projects or renovations that we know are fairly typical. So a building may be replacing its roof, but it may also be looking at optimizing its HVAC system.

So what can a roof replacement offer, not only in energy savings tomorrow, but maybe even reducing the size of that HVAC system that you're going to need to install next year? So trying, again, to give the industry more data but at a more local level so you can translate this information, so it translates better into maybe your next project. So in terms of this modeling initiative, that's really where we think we're going to head going forward, and we'd love feedback. If there are buildings that you think this information would be very helpful, if there's areas of the country where you hear all the time from customers, we would really like this information, we need that feedback because we're a couple steps removed obviously from the product as it gets installed on a particular building. So a great opportunity for us to listen to the marketplace is what information would be helpful.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I really love too, how you're correlating that that it's not just the energy savings with, obviously, that you will get with the insulation. But it's also once you put a building up to that level of insulation that really makes a difference in it that is working to building codes, but also maybe even beyond that. What that does to the other equipment? I mean, it's an obvious point, but do you have to have the same amount of HVAC? Can you do things that are going to actually bring down your cost in other areas? I mean, that's something where a building owner can really start going, okay, and putting some plans together.

Justin Koscher: Yeah. One thing we like to talk about is how energy efficiency really is a foundational improvement that enables investments and all these other technologies that people are excited about. So we hear a lot about electrification and taking a building from fossil fuel heating to an electric heat pump. If you can reduce the load size of that building, that electric heat pump becomes a much more viable alternative to your fossil fuel power heat source.

Same thing goes for renewable energy, if you have a commitment to install solar power on your roofs to offset your electricity needs and energy needs, you would be best served by trying to reduce your energy as low as possible, that way, you have a higher chance of meeting that goal. So we think all the technologies can work together, but energy efficiency, and if you're using your roof as a platform to host some of those other technologies, you get one chance to get it right. And so you better take full advantage of that so that when you decide to do solar panels on your roof, you've got the right roof underneath it that's helping save your building energy as well.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. Man, that's great. That is smart. So some great plans. How can roofing contractors get more involved, both with PIMA and what PIMA is working on, but also just getting the information like we were talking about earlier?

Justin Koscher: Yeah. So a couple of thoughts. One great way to get involved is just to be more involved in whatever association you belong to today. And if you don't belong to an association, join one. If you're a contractor, join your state association, join NRCA. If you're a consultant, join IDEC. You mentioned Roofing Day. Roofing Day has really brought the industry together. I feel like we've built a lot of good momentum in bringing our voice to Washington, but that's also led us to be more active at the state and local level. And there is so much good that's happening, but also it's good to be involved to prevent the bad at the policy level that you really need to be engaged. And all of the associations do a tremendous amount of information gathering and communication out to our members to make sure that they know what's going on, but you've got to be involved and engaged to get that information.

So step one I think is join an association that's appropriate for your business, know that we're all working together to best serve the industry as allied organizations. If you're interested in digging deeper into the information about the studies and studies we talked about today, they're all available on the PIMA website, which is polyiso.org. And under environment, the dropdown tab on our website, you'll find both of these studies listed. The roof replacement study from 2021, we have fact sheets for each climate zone that we studied as well as the report itself. And then for our most recent study, which we've called the Insulation Opportunity Study, we have a fact sheet related to commercial buildings, and then we have the full reports. And I know they're long, but there's a lot of information in tables that's easily digestible.

So if you spend a few minutes, they're long, but they're not complicated, and you can dig into these tables. If you do work in the school arena, you've got to look at the information because it tells a story that every school that's going through a roof replacement ought to add insulation, and they probably ought to shoot for above code if it's within their budget because the savings are really just off the chart. If you do public sector work, our recent study looked at federal buildings as well. So a ton of information to educate yourself. We break it down by state, so if you're interested in what roof replacements could mean for Washington, get the information. I think it just makes for good conversation, and you can have a little bit different angle when you start these conversations with building owners.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Right. And like you said, you also had some residential in there too, right?

Justin Koscher: Yeah. So if you're in the residential sector, don't think that this is just for your low slope colleagues. The Insulation Opportunity Study looked at residential buildings. I know a lot of roofing contractors are expanding their services, a lot do other home renovation projects, probably including insulation improvements in the attic space. And so tremendous savings there. We talked about the recent legislation that was passed this summer, included in that bill were revised tax credits for residential and commercial buildings. But really on the residential side, a ton of opportunities for homeowners as we flip the calendar to January 1st, 2023 to take advantage of energy efficiency improvements on a year-over-year basis. And that understanding these developments is probably one more plug to get involved in your associations because the value of the information you get back, I think, pays for the membership multiple times over.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. Well, I have to tell, we did our whole house that way, walls, ceiling, the whole thing insulated just with polyiso. And so, it's one of those things that we live up in the mountains, and so it's not just commercial, it's for everybody to be thinking about with their homes.

Justin Koscher: And you can't put a price tag on comfort.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: No.

Justin Koscher: I remember you go to your grandparents for Thanksgiving and Christmas and you've got to wear four different layers because no matter how high the thermostat is, it can't keep up with the leaky windows and the leaky walls. There's six different quilts on the bed because it gets down to be so cold at night. So you also can't put a price tag on comfort, which is one of those added benefits of an energy efficient home or building.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: We'll give a testimonial. Our house is great, nice and warm and wood heated. So, Justin, anything else happening with PIMA that you want to have folks aware of?

Justin Koscher: Yeah. I mean, we're very busy on the advocacy front implementing a number of the programs that received funding from Washington. One of the areas we're working on right now is getting information out about school grants that are going to be made available over the next five years to schools to improve their energy efficiency performance. And so, we're working with groups like NRCA and IDEC to make sure that consultants and contractors that do public projects and understand that their customers may have access to funding that's going to allow them to do more roofs and do those roofs in a way to improve energy efficiency. So that's just one example of the many programs that are now in the implementation phase. So it's great to see the bills signed, but there's so much work that follows with agencies to make sure that the programs are crafted in a way that allows some of that funding to be utilized to improve roofs and other parts of the building envelope. Outside of the... Oh, go ahead, Heidi.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: No, I was just going to say, there's so much with what's the legislation that has passed, so I'm so glad that you are all focusing on that, on how the industry can really make it work and take it to the next step.

Justin Koscher: Yeah. No shortage of content for your future podcast and newsletters and publication, that's for sure. So yeah, I would say that's really our main focus, sharing information, making it digestible and actionable for the industry. Because if it's a once in a generation opportunity, it's probably a once in a decade opportunity really to leverage this momentum and really make an impact on our buildings and make an impact on the industry. I know we've all been busy, but there's still a lot more good work to be done out there.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And an impact on the world,-

Justin Koscher: Absolutely.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: ... overall. I know. Well, Justin, thank you. Thank you so much for being on Roofing Road Trips. You're right, I want to bring you back. We need to talk about all of this. There's so much to talk about.

Justin Koscher: Well, I think a little series on your home and your home energy efficiency with polyiso would be a good topic.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: There we go. Okay. Yeah.

Justin Koscher: Well, thank you so much for the invitation to join you today.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Thank you. And thank you for all the great work you're doing, everything you do for the industry and for all the contractors out there. It's wonderful. And thank you all for listening today. This is the kind of information that can help your business, help you with sales, help your building owners. This kind of information really can turn and make the difference for you. So please look on RoofersCoffeeShop at the PIMA directory where you can get to their site or polyiso.org. But it's all on RoofersCoffeeShop also, and you can find everything there, along with all of our podcasts under the read list and watch initiative under Roofing Road Trips. And be sure to subscribe and set your notifications on your favorite podcast channel, and we will see you next time on Roofing Road Trips.

Make sure to subscribe to our channel and leave a review. Thanks for listening. This has been Roofing Road Trips with Heidi from the RoofersCoffeeShop.com.