John Kenney - Estimating with Coach John - PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of an live interview with John Kenney, CEO of COtney Consulting Group. You can read the interview below or listen to the podcast.

Speaker 1:
Welcome to Roofing Road Trips with Heidi. Explore the roofing industry through the eyes of a long-term professional within the trade. Listen for insights, interviews, and exciting news in the roofing industry today.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Hello and welcome to another Roofing Road Trips. This is Heidi Ellsworth with Roofers Coffee Shop and I am here today with honestly one of my favorite people in roofing, John Kenney. Welcome John.

John Kenney:
Hi, Heidi. How you doing? Thank you for the warm welcome. I feel the same way. It's great to be back.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I love these conversations, I have to tell you. And for those of you who might not know, although I would be surprised if there are many, John Kenney is the CEO of Cottony Consulting, but part of the larger Cottony Attorneys and Consulting Group who are doing amazing things, amazing things in the industry. John, I can't believe you and Trent, watching you guys every day. It's nonstop.

John Kenney:
Yeah. Sometimes we can't believe ourselves either how busy we are, but you know what? Work is not a labor when you love what you do. And that-

Heidi Ellsworth:
That's true.

John Kenney:
Both of us are at. We love what we do. Always looking to do something new and exciting to bring the industry to the next level, help the industry get to next or whatever it is, it's all about getting to the next level so everyone can benefit from it.

Heidi Ellsworth:
That's how I feel too. I feel so much that way. I love this industry and I love working with such amazing thought leaders like yourself. And so one of the things that I wanted to talk about was talk about thought leadership. You have taken the bull by the horns and you have put together a certification for estimating. That's pretty impressive.

John Kenney:
Yeah. It's been a dream of mine for a long time. Coming up through the industry and training people as I've gone along. There's other programs out there for sure, but they're more geared widespread kind of generalization in the industry. This particular module is geared for the roofing industry solely, but what I like about it is, so the first one was launching May 5th it's live.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Wow.

John Kenney:
It's all out there and available. So we're almost there. The nice thing about it is the first phase is an intermediate level. So it's a certificate program that's coming out right now. And that's meant for someone that doesn't know a thing about our industry all the way up to somebody that's in the industry that wants to become an estimator. And it's also great for an estimator that is struggling or wanting to do better or want to increase.
So we're covering the whole spectrum in this one module. The course is five and a half to six hours worth of learning. And then the final-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Okay.

John Kenney:
Assessment exam probably would take you about two hours. It could take a little less, it could take a little more, depending on the speed. It's 80 questions and you have up to two times to take it. So we'll give you a fail. That happens. And you need a 78 or greater to pass and you get a certificate. So that's ready to go. Now, the certification that you mentioned, if I may jump into that if-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yes. Please.

John Kenney:
That's not far off. That's coming up next. Now that is a pure certification program where you're going to have to pass an assessment test to get into this. We're going to have it on two levels. We're going to have it on an [accreditated 00:03:34] level and a certified level. [Creditdated 00:03:37] level will be if you have up to two years of estimating experience that you can document in the roofing industry and the certification level, that you're going to need to show five years of experience. So you have to already be estimating. That's at the higher level. So once you're able to pass these assessment test, then we will have to show us how you do your estimate, how you would put a proposal together, and you will also have to do a verbal communication as if we were a client of how you would do it.
So we have a grading scale set up for all these little communications, content, accuracy, all that's in there. And if you manage, which we hope you do, you could pass through this, then at the end you will become certified. Now certification on the five-year, that is really cool. We're going to give you a seal similar to like a corporate seal that will tell you that your certified estimator. It'll have your registration number on it. And you also get an ink stamp with your name and your registration number so you can seal your bids. So you will now become a professional estimator.

Heidi Ellsworth:
That is really cool. I know you're talking about how they do it and everything, but this is all online. Is it-

John Kenney:
Yep. All online.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yes.

John Kenney:
The verbal part, we can do it two ways. If you're not comfortable with taping yourself, then we can always do a live Zoom because once you get to that point, we'll be able to do live Zoom, not in person. There is availability too if you're in the local area to our training area. You could come in here and take the class, but it is all online. Even if you come in here, it'll be an online. We did it that way to reach a wider audience, plus you have the opportunity to do it at your own pace.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

John Kenney:
Not everybody can take a day out of their work life or two days or three days to do these things, but you always have time at night if you want to further your career or on a weekend to do it. So that's why we set it up this way.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I like it. I think that's so important too because the professionalism of the roofing industry is something we talk about all the time and roofing respect and being able to bring this kind of certification to estimators, to be able to really show beyond our industry, I think is so important. What are you hearing back from some of the folks that you've talked to? I know when we were on a call recently, a big contractor out of LA was like, "We're signing up as soon as you do this." So what are you hearing?

John Kenney:
We've been hearing good things. We had a small promotional video go out, very small. Just a kind of a clicker. Off of that alone we've done five pre-sales within the first hour that went out. We have a more extensive video going out today, which I walk you through about ... it takes about six minutes. I will actually walk you through parts of the program so that if you're on the fence, whether that's for you or not for you, we're going to take you through it. And I can't imagine anyone that is watching that video will not want to do this. There's truly, and it's not because we're doing it. There's nothing else out there quite like this.
I have to say, it's amazing. A lot of time went into this and a lot of people hours to get it done, but it's going to be fantastic. And the nice thing is it's online and it's not just a PowerPoint. There's action videos in there. There's all kinds of stuff to keep you occupied and really learning. So should be really good.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

John Kenney:
So far all good feedback. Of course we're not live yet. So we have pre-sales, but no actual sales. Like I said, Wednesday, Cinco de Mayo. I didn't even realize it was Cinco de Mayo when we picked that day, but why not? [crosstalk 00:07:25]
Have you brought [crosstalk 00:07:29]

Heidi Ellsworth:
Well, John, what do you see? I mean, as with everything that we're going through this last year, COVID and now material shortages and price increase, it seems like estimating is more important than ever to be done right for roofing companies. So maybe talk a little bit to owner's. Like why should they be really taking the time out to get their estimators with this additional training and certification?

John Kenney:
Well, there's a couple reasons. So we broke this program together, like I said, it would take your estimator, and really most of them will probably need to watch it twice, right? It's like anything else when you go through it and you're going to be tested on it, probably one run through is not enough because it's a lot. I mean, it's broken into nine modules, but it's a lot of information and it's the information that you need. So let's just say it would take, by review process and that, two days out of your life.
If you were an owner and you looked at the promotional video that we got coming out and to train, if you had all the ability to do that and I don't mean that the person doesn't have the ability. I'm talking about that time. If you're going to get in a day or two worth of training out of this what it would take someone in your company probably weeks, if not months, to get all this embedded into your estimators knowledge base.
And the other reason is at the end, you are getting a true 80 question assessment test that I put together. If you don't study and you don't absorb this, you won't pass it. I guarantee you won't. It's not meant to make you fail, right? Nothing should be-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

John Kenney:
Made to make you fail, but you have to grasp 78% of the knowledge of this to do it. And if you get to that point, you can honestly now say, "Hey. I got great levels of estimators in my company now," but you're probably going to ask me, "What's next? This is intermediate." Well the next thing we got coming out is the advanced level. So the next thing once they do this will be an advanced level training, which we're working on finishing now. So these will all be coming out over the next couple months. Got to get them out and get them ready. That's where we're really going to deep dive. They'll learn about contract reviews, they're going to learn about profit analysis in the company, they're going to learn about how to work with their field personnel, all that stuff's going to come in the advanced level.

Heidi Ellsworth:
When I think about how integral and how important estimators, and good estimators, are to the profitability of a roofing company, this makes so much sense because how many owners are so caught up in the day-to-day business right now that maybe they don't even have the opportunity to really make sure that their estimators are fully trained?

John Kenney:
Right.

Heidi Ellsworth:
This isn't something to say, "We want you to fail." This is something to say, "We want you to succeed and take it to a new level and differentiate your company that way."

John Kenney:
Absolutely. And in the world of the internet, we always figure you could look things up, but I guarantee you, when you look information up, there's going to be some right answers, there's going to be somewhat right answers, and there's going to be a lot of wrong answers. So by having training put together like this you're estimating staff or, and the nice thing too, you got to remember, it's not just your estimating staff. If you have a great field personnel that is ready to make that move, which is what's really missing in the industry now. I know when I came up, you had that progression from field to admin to office and you had that knowledge of how to put a roof down. So we're going to teach the ones that maybe aren't quite as familiar with roof systems.
We run through every possible roof system that's out there, not every, but as much as we possibly could, how to estimate that, but we also, if you're a field person that you want to bring say a foreman in or a lead person or someone that's ready to move in, they will then get the skills that they need to do the estimates. What mass involved? How do you do a proper takeoff? How do you assess overhead to your job? What is really overhead? All those different things. So we're doing the training for you. That's the nice thing about it. We're doing all that.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

John Kenney:
And it's all preset. We'll have package discounts for somebody who has an estimating team that wants to do a team instead of individual. So we'll work with you in many different ways.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. And one last thing, because I want to get onto some other things too, but I really see how, and I want to go back. You said this earlier and we may have gone over it quick, but having that stamp, that certification stamp that you're talking about that goes on to every bid that goes out. Talk about a differentiator for the sales team when they're talking to building owners and architects and consultants and different folks to be able to show that. That's going to be a game changer.

John Kenney:
Yeah. Imagine you're going in and either the estimator selling the job or your salesman with the bid or you're the owner talking to your client. And they're like, "Well, I have three prices and you seem to be the highest really." So everyone does a normal thing. Let's review scope, get it apples to apples. But now you get to go in with something in your pocket that no one else is probably going to have. You get to say, "Well we disagree. Here's our scope. And to prove it we have a certified roofing estimator to put this together. So we know our costs are right."

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

John Kenney:
"So like by doing that, we know we're giving you what you're asking for. What happens with non-certified estimators, Mr. Owner, is that they're going to be missing things because that's what an estimator do if they're not properly trained and you're going to end up being changed or out the backside."

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

John Kenney:
"And it's going to end up costing you more in the end or someone's got to cut quality in order to meet that price." So you have a whole new set of tools in your tool bag when you can walk in and say, "We certify this estimate."

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. That just goes across the whole company. So let's talk a little bit about that. In fact, one of the things that I am so excited about is this-

John Kenney:
My book.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Your new book. And you go over estimating, but a lot more in your new book that just came out. Tell us about that, John.

John Kenney:
Well, it's like most things, if you follow us on social media or me, it's usually frustrations that lead to things like writing a book or estimating training. I've been in the industry over 45 years before I came onto the consulting side and you had to learn everything on your own. It was just the way it was. I mean, there'd be stuff out there you could learn, but you had to go find it, you had to look at it and when I was learning, first coming in off the roof and into the administrative end and that, I was like trying to find books that would help me learn and there was good business books, but there really didn't have anything to do with a roofing company.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

John Kenney:
And there may have been contracting books. Again, they were great if you were a construction manager or a general contractor and you have subs working for you, but there was nothing really about, "Okay. I'm a prime subcontractor roofer. What do I do?" So that was the idea behind this. I wanted to write this book so that if you were interested in starting a roofing company, this would peak your interest. If you are already running a roofing company, but maybe in that struggling first to five-year stage, this should help you out. I walk you through that. And if you're a veteran and if you know what's in this book, which is great, there's a lot of people out there that do. You can take this book and give it to your up and coming management staff and they can learn all about what's involved in running a roofing company so that they can grasp it. That's how I put this together. Always to cover a wide variety of possible audiences.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. I love that. I've put together two books on marketing and sales for roofing and you find that I think that's so perfect. Different people in different positions use them different ways. But bringing your leadership team together within a roofing company and using this kind of resource with what you've done can make such a difference. What kind of feedback are you hearing from the industry? I know people have read it, I've seen it on social media. What are you hearing?

John Kenney:
Well, again, I've only received what I consider great feedback. You never are guaranteed. Sure somebody may not have, but they haven't published it. So I'll take that for what it's worth. I've got good feedback. And I know I sent it to you, which I was amazed. Somebody bought my book, a roofer in California who was not even connected to me on social media directly. So that's what made it even more amazing. And he got my book and ordered it and opened it up and liked it so much he did a TikTok video on it.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I love it.

John Kenney:
He actually took the time, put the book coming out of the pack. It was fantastic. I was like, "Wow. This is really great." So that will-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

John Kenney:
That really warmed my heart as they say, right. I said, "Okay. I'm helping. That's what it's all about."

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yep.

John Kenney:
So, so far, so good. I've always loved to announce new things first on any one of your programs. So this is about the book.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Okay.

John Kenney:
I will tell you right now, this book is in publication in Spanish. Not going to be much longer, it's already being translated. Being done correctly so it can be in proper Spanish, not just the online tools. It's out at a person that knows how to take the terms and put it into proper Spanish. So sometime very shortly, probably within the next couple of months, this will be available in Spanish as well.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Now that makes so much sense and it's so ignored so often. That is awesome, John. You're inspiring me. That's the kind of thing we need. I know we have full Spanish resources on Roofers Coffee Shop, but by putting these books into Spanish, you're brilliant. That's awesome. That's going to help so many people.

John Kenney:
Yeah. We want to be able to really hit the marketplace and want it available to anyone who wants to learn.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. Wow. Well that's great. Well everybody who's listening out there, you can get this book on Amazon, you can find links to it on Roofer's Coffee Shop, of course at Cottony Attorneys and Consultants, you can also find links to buy the book. I've started it. It's great. And I did see that TikTok video and it was so cool. So cool. Okay. Speaking of all the new things that are going on, one of the big things that is coming out or that you have launched in the last couple months and you're getting a lot of noticed about is the training center.

John Kenney:
Yes.

Heidi Ellsworth:
So tell everybody a little bit about the Cottony training center.

John Kenney:
Well the training center is exciting. I mean, to us, it's a passion and anybody who knows me and I know you know workforce training, any kind of training to me, that's my passion. That's why I was involved in roofing organizations locally here in the Tampa Bay area. I've been president involved in West Coast Roofing Contractors Association for 21 years now.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Wow.

John Kenney:
And the whole thing is always having a training event, something to do besides our charity roofs. That's the other passion I have too is giving back. So what we have here is a little unique. When you walk in and [inaudible 00:18:59], we have a history all over our entire training room. There's probably two to 300 signs that range from the late 1800s all the way up to the '50s and even probably '70., These aren't reproductions like if you go to a restaurant. These are actually originals. These are-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Wow.

John Kenney:
The original signs from these manufacturers. So you not only get to come in for training, you get a history lesson on top of it, and it's great. It's fantastic. We had some big training events. We actually started out with first NRCA event. That's where we worked with them on their new QA pro cert that's coming out. They came down-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

John Kenney:
We again have an event coming up the end of May with NRCA that they're going to be opening up here in Florida, going to be a two day event where you can get certified as a roofer in tile, in steep slope. So on top of that in between we've had multiple manufacturers trainings here, we'd done Certa training in different ones here, we're trying to open this up. If you're listening and you're in the Tampa Bay area or you have a rep in Tampa Bay, contact us, we're happy to open our center up for you to bring in your contractors, your architects, your specifiers, to do a day of training. That's what it's here for. That's our give back.

Heidi Ellsworth:
That is cool. That is cool. I know you had a big event there with the Delta Group-

John Kenney:
Yep.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Couple weeks ago with Wayne [Hieronymus 00:20:26] who we both love. How did that go?

John Kenney:
That went fantastic. So that was an interesting concept. We had a live training here, which was invitation only through Delta, where they brought in specifiers and a few roofing contractors. So while that was going on, we wanted to expand it out to anyone. So we did the virtual training day on top of it, which live manufacturer's demonstration and training that went on for, I believe two and a half, three hours. But on top of just doing that in between, I had pre done these industry interviews. They're actually 15, 20 minute interviews and you were one of them Heidi.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yep. It was great.

John Kenney:
Glad you accepted and came on. It was fantastic. So in between, we did these five minute interviews to keep people interested, which they were very interested. From start to finish, we did not lose an audience person. We know we had people coming in and out depending on what they wanted to see, but it was steadily hundreds of people on this all day, which is amazing.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Wow.

John Kenney:
Right?

Heidi Ellsworth:
That's amazing.

John Kenney:
So now on top of that, which you'll see, we just started every week, and I got one coming out this week, I'm taking these interviews and I'm publishing them again on social media, but you have access to the full 15, 20 minutes. So I recommend anybody besides the training that you may have saw, you want to catch every single one of these interviews in their full. And they're also available through the link you'll see on the social media on our website.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

John Kenney:
I mean, we met amazing people, you being one of them. They were fantastic.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I was so tickled to be a part of that. And I was in and out. And I mean, talk about a great day. You guys just do it right. It is so good.

John Kenney:
It was a lot of fun.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Along that lines, I know that Cottony Consulting has been just going crazy. Give us just here, before we end up this podcast, give us a little bit of an update on what you're doing across the country, helping contractors and what they can kind of expect and how they can get involved.

John Kenney:
Well, it's a lot.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

John Kenney:
So we have full service consulting services, which go to Roofers Coffee Shops. You can see everything that we've got. We have for business help, training now coming out, you've seen all these trainings. So this is just the beginning. I know we'll be doing more podcasts hopefully throughout the year we have so much more-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

John Kenney:
Coming. It's like a wave once you start getting them out. I do webinars constantly, not just me, the whole firm. We do webinars constantly with roofing associations, HVAC, electrical, all types. And that's our giving back. We're also in Canada. We've done some webinars up there working with them. I'm on the National Tech Committee in Canada for technical. I love working up there with the Canadian organization. Now we get some information we talk about on the other side of the world. We're the only North American voting member of the IFD, International Federation of Roofing Trade.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

John Kenney:
So we have all that going on, which we love and I'm working with them on the actual recommendations for slope roofing, pitch in the flat roofing and all that. So that's going to be published. So we're going to be part of that publishing when it comes out, probably the end of this year for the European union, which is fantastic. We love doing stuff.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Wow. So contractors who are looking for help, they're looking to just kind of take their business that next level. Maybe they're like in that first five years. Reading the book, getting trained, and then contacting you and your team including Lee [inaudible 00:24:11] and a whole team of just amazing folks. What can the contractors kind of expect from that call and getting involved?

John Kenney:
We do the soft reach out. If somebody contacts us or we happen to get a recommendation and contact, you'll talk to one of our associates and it's not about pressuring or anything else. They're really there to gain what possible problems and issues you're facing and where you might want to go. Whether technology issues, operational safety, admin, whatever it is, we'll find out. So that's the first conversation. Then from there, we want to elevate you up to Lee [inaudible 00:24:52] or Whitney to do the next call to really drill down on where it is. Or, if you want to skip that step, they'll get you right directly to me. So that's what we do. So you will, on all of these consultations in the beginning, you'll get to speak with me. We'll work with you.
I want to hear, it's kind of like a couch session. I want to hear what your struggles are. And we listen to all that and then we come back with a plan and we lay that plan out with you. And I know we have a lot of startup companies and their big thing is of course, cashflow, right?

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

John Kenney:
We work with you. We put you on monthly payments. We want to see you succeed and there hasn't been anybody that we've put on an extended monthly payment that hasn't grown in not only just revenue, I'm talking about grown in their business savvy. So they learn and grow every month. And that's what we're here to do. That's just part of it. That's the consulting side, but that's why we have the training and the online. We have a lot of stuff coming out where if you're a great self-learner, you just purchasing and download and off you go. We're going to do that with the COO on demand. We're actually going to put that in different phases. If you've learn better self-learning, we'll put these together. So you have the ability to do it.

Heidi Ellsworth:
That's right. COO on demand. There's so much. There's so much John. I just love it. I love it. Well, okay. So just for everybody out there, let's just kind of walk down this a little bit. Big thing, estimating, training, and certification. That's your first step. It's on the Coffee Shop. You can find the links. It's launching May 5th. So for some of you, you're going to hear this afterwards and hopefully you've already done it and you're already seeing how great it was. John's book. It's going to go through everything. Kind of get you started down this path. It's really a great way to just see what this is all about. So Amazon, Cottony, Roofers Coffee Shop, you can find it in all those places. And then finally, if you're looking for consulting COO on all of that kind of stuff, just reach out. John's like one of the nicest guys you will ever meet. I'm telling you right now. I love it. Well, John, any last thoughts?

John Kenney:
I mean, this was a great talk. We covered a lot of stuff. And again, I want everybody to know, if you need any assistance, reach out to us. It doesn't cost you anything for that initial call. And I will tell you, we will never point you in a direction just to make a sale or anything like that. A lot of times we have clients on the law side that call me and we just talk about good old roofing stories too. So we're all good with that.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. I love it.

John Kenney:
Whatever works for you, we're here for you.

Heidi Ellsworth:
That is so great. Well, thank you, John. Thank you for being here today and thank you all for listening. Hopefully you're listening on your favorite podcast channel and you have subscribed so you can hear all the upcoming and past podcasts, but they're all available on rooferscoffeeshop.com under read, listen, watch, where you can not only hear podcasts, but videos, read articles. How you learn is how we deliver it. So thank you so much and have a wonderful day.

John Kenney:
Thank you.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Hey. This is Heidi Ellsworth with Roofer's Coffee Shop. We've got something we wanted to share with you just real quick because there is an opportunity in Tampa, Florida coming up at the end of May for contractors to get hands on performance exams. I'm here with John Kenney from Cottony consult ... I'm here with John Kenny from Cottony Attorneys and Consultants. He's going to tell you all about it. John, what is this?

John Kenney:
Yeah. This is a great event. We're partnered up with NRCA on this. This is going to be the pro certification exam event. Going to be live on May 25th and 26 here in our Tampa facility. You do need to go onto NRCA to register for this and it will walk you through all the paperwork. So we're going to have two days of pro certified for clay and concrete tile systems as well as thermoplastics. So if you've gone through the pro certification program and they set you up to come down here, NRCA will be on staff, we have our own QAs on staff as well to work along with NRCA. It's going to be a great day. So at the end of this, you'll get your certification and be in that special class in the roofing industry.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And the end of the month, be it Cottony Attorneys and Consultants in Tampa. John, thank you for everything you're doing for the industry.

John Kenney:
My pleasure. Look forward to seeing everybody here.

Speaker 1:
Make sure to subscribe to our channel and leave a review. Thanks for listening. This has been Roofing Road Trips with Heidi from the rooferscoffeeshop.com.