Jim Rizzo and Steven White - Is Your Tech Company Connecting You to the Industry? - PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of an live interview with Steven White and Jim Rizzo of Jobba. You can read the interview below or listen to the podcast.

Speaker 1:
Welcome to Roofing Road Trips with Heidi. Explore the roofing industry through the eyes of a long-term professional within the trade. Listen for insights, interviews, and exciting news in the roofing industry today.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Hello and welcome to another Roofing Road Trips from Roofers Coffee Shop. This is Heidi Ellsworth and I am here today, road tripping across the country to the middle of the country to visit with our dear friends and amazing people, the folks from Jobba, Steven White, Jim Rizzo. Thank you for being on Roofing Road Trips.

Steven White:
Hey Heidi!

Jim Rizzo:
Thank you, Heidi. How you doing?

Steven White:
Is that your RV parked outside?

Heidi Ellsworth:
Exactly. My virtual RV. Yeah. It just flies wherever I want it to go anytime.

Jim Rizzo:
Right.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Well, for the few people out there who maybe don't know you two, I would really love it if we'd start with some introductions. So Steven, can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you're doing at Jobba?

Steven White:
Absolutely. I'm Steven White. I am Chief Transformation Officer for Jobba. I head up sales and marketing. My two main objectives are to help our clients to transform their business with technology that mirrors their workflows, but then also to help transform the industry and really get the industry working together to solve some of these big problems we have and figure out some of the technological issues facing us.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I have to tell you, first of all, I love your title, Chief Transformation Officer. That rocks. It's such a cool title. And you know how to get right to my heart because it's all about collaboration. So Jim, you and I have known each other, I think, forever and ever.

Jim Rizzo:
Forever and ever.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Please introduce yourself to everyone. Tell them what you're doing with Jobba and maybe a little bit of history.

Jim Rizzo:
Yeah. I'm Jim Rizzo. I'm Vice President of Sales for Jobba. I've been with the company for about 10 years now. Been in the industry for I think 100, but that's why you know me. I've been at it for a while. Been helping contractors through the tech side of it. Learned a lot myself in the last 10 years about how contractors really interact with technology, how they develop it in their business. And it's been a great journey. It's been a lot of fun and we're with a great team. It's exciting.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I love working with you guys and you know what's funny, Jim, is you and I both, we were solid products, right?

Jim Rizzo:
Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
We were together with Eternabond.

Jim Rizzo:
Yeah. Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
But both of us kind of got into the technology world around the same time and really being able to bring that to the industry, which has been, myself through Eagle View, you with Jobba. It's been very fun to kind of see all that happen. But one of the things that I think, still to this day, people are trying to kind of figure out is how can a roofing contractor work efficiently with a tech company and what should they expect? So I'm going to start with you, Jim. Just kind of what should contractors in today's world, after watching for so many years, what should they be expecting from their tech companies?

Jim Rizzo:
Well, I think it's changed. When I got involved 10 years ago, you remember Heidi, there was just three of us, right? We [inaudible 00:03:23] trade show. But today, I was there few months ago at the IRE show and there's seven aisles of technology, right? It's crazy. There's so much technology now. And now the contractors got the ferocity to kind of buy everything. Let's just buy all stuff because it's going to get them to where they need to go. I think it's changing because in the beginning, we were just out of the box stuff and just teaching them stuff and going down that road. Today it's changing because I think you got to have that more relationship. You got to really sit down and find out where they're going, what they need to do, and how they need to get there. I don't know, Steven. What do you think?

Steven White:
Yeah. I agree. The whole idea of having a great relationship with your technology company has really come to fore more these days because there are so many apps out there. There actually is kind of a growing mistrust and maybe even some confusion around how to deal with technology companies. So like Jim is saying, it comes down more to how are you going to develop that relationship? And this isn't something, like Jim said, off the shelf. It used to be you just bought it off the shelf. These days, everything has to be more customized to your workflow. You have to be able to work with that technology company. So they really become a strategic partner and an extension of your team rather than a vendor. One of our great customers was just telling us last week, I was talking to them and they said, I'm not worried about getting this done fast.

Steven White:
I want to get it done right with the right people and make the right decision about who I'm working with. So our customers, we look at them truly as partners. We have hundreds of customers that we've been dealing with for over 10 years. We know their birthdays and we go to their events and we go through ups and downs with them together. And that's the model. That's why I really like working here because it's more of a relationship model. We don't have anyone that's just a number on a sheet or something. We're actively involved in their businesses and talking to them every day.

Heidi Ellsworth:
That's really a key for success for the contractors, is that relationship and asking questions. So I'm going to ask a question that I think a lot of contractors ask every day and I'm going to ask you, Steven, what is an API?

Steven White:
What is an API? Oh man, that's a good one. So an API, in simple terms, is a technology function that allows your software to communicate with other software platforms. It allows you to translate the information back and forth, but it's a little different than just what we might call an export-import. The API puts that communication wire in place that can go back and forth.

Steven White:
Imagine if your iPhone updates sometimes, or your computer will update and then something else won't work because of the update. API helps keep all that stuff together and synchronize with all the different updates and things and allows everything to work together. And one of the reasons why we talk about APIs and we talk about Jobba's API, is that it's actually a bidirectional API that's created to go back and forth and allow our data to be housed in a place where it can be shared and worked with, with many other apps. When you have an app that does something in your business, it has to talk to a lot of other apps. Some contractors have 20 to 26 apps that they're working with. So APIs become important because it helps the technologies work together.

Jim Rizzo:
And I think it's a buzzword. In the industry, a lot of guys are using it as a buzzword. Oh, we have APIs. Oh, we have integrations. I think integrations in our world are very personalized. A lot of these contractors want to do the business the way they want to do it. If you have a canned API and let's say, I'm just bringing over certain data from Salesforce into Jobba. Maybe somebody wants a lot more data out of there than just a name and an address. Maybe they want two-way when we do something [inaudible 00:07:54]. So integrations to me and APIs are very personalized. It's not out of the box stuff, but a lot of people use it as that. Hey, we have this, but doesn't mean it will fit their business. I guess that's the way I'd say it.

Heidi Ellsworth:
So on that, APIs, there's a lot of talk and I would say some controversy about the difference between a one-way and a two-way API. And so, Jim, you were kind of going down that road.

Jim Rizzo:
Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Talk a little bit about the importance of understanding that.

Jim Rizzo:
So the goal of the game from now on is going to, as Steven was saying, and I even think John Kenny did a research on the state of the industry that he did that there's only 10 apps per company now. From this time forward, it's trying to get back to one login. Right? That's going to be the thing. But it is going to be difficult. But what we're saying is that, what do you really want to get out of an API? Do you want a two-way where you want things to happen in certain parts of the process to trigger these applications, to get data to them so that data's not so siloed. See, when you have 10, 15, 20 amps, I'm in a company with 20 amps. I'm like, are you kidding me? Plus what they had? Data gets siloed everywhere. That to me is really where the issue is. Now you reach that glass ceiling again, where we just don't understand the contractors are struggling where data's at. Go ahead, Steven.

Steven White:
And I want to just jump in and point out. Why is that a problem? Why is it a problem? We talked to a contractor last week. He has 26 applications. Why is that a problem? Why are data silos a problem? There's a problem, because that creates more work to get the data in and out of that platform. So you might be excited that you bought an app that did a great job for estimating? But if you have to assign a person to manually enter in 50 work orders and then figure out a way to get it out the other end, you've created more problems. And that ladders into what we call technical debt. You've created a technical debt now where you're creating more manpower to run the apps. It's like the robots are running the society now.

Steven White:
The technology is now making you do things that you didn't want to do before. The API and the way Jobba is created, that's going to help you. We're trying to go back down to minimize like Jim saying. Go back to a single login. Now it doesn't have to be perfect. Are you going to necessarily get there? But the key question to ask is, is your technology company helping you simplify your tech stack, as they say, or simplify your workflows in your tech landscape? Or is it just adding on and say you got to figure out what to do next? One of the things that we're doing, we're providing a way to say, you know what? We can either do it on Jobba, or you can actually very easily integrate or talk to others, but now our customers are starting to say, oh great. Now we're starting to say, maybe we don't need that app. Maybe we don't need that one because now we're able to bring this back on one platform.

Heidi Ellsworth:
There's going to be some people out there who maybe are not that familiar with what we're talking about. And so I do want to kind of that differentiation, I think a lot of people, when you say an app, they think, oh, that's, what's on my iPhone. I have an app on my iPhone, but really you are talking about several different software platforms. Explain that of doing different things.

Steven White:
Yeah. Let me clarify a little more, give you an example. So in a contractor's business, what are they really trying to do? What are the big things? They have to go out and sell and get the business? They have to go and earn that business. Do some work. Do an inspection. Do a service call. Build the roof. And then they have to get paid. They have to bill the customers and get their money in a timely manner. So there's a lot of applications that have sprung up to help you do that. Applications that help you. They're basically software programs that you buy, that you integrate in your business and they help for your accounting. QuickBooks is an example of an app. There are different CRMs, customer relationship management softwares, that allow the contractor to manage all the customers that they're trying to bring in and sell and do different things.

Steven White:
So Zoho or Salesforce even is an example of a common CRM. And then in the area of actually working the business, earning the business, we've got things like estimating softwares, estimating edge, and different things that help you do that. So when we say apps we're kind of short handing for these software platforms that are very prevalent in the roofing industry. We're actually developing a graphic that's going to help you. And maybe our marketing team will be sending that out. The whole tech landscape on one sheet so that we can just visually kind of show you what you're dealing with. Does that answer the question?

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. That's excellent. And Jim,

Jim Rizzo:
No, I was going to say it. And I think the contractors, we're at a stage now where we're going to have to put more money in. This is facts of life. It's going to take more to do the kinds of things we're talking about here to get things integrated and to get the processes down to three logins or four logins. It's just going to take more dollars and cents to get there than what they did before. But they're spending a lot of money on these applications a month. So it's now starting to make sense to where they're going, oh man, I am spending a lot of money and I need to figure this out. So that's where we help them as far as our relationship with them is really helping them through that landscape. So

Steven White:
One thing to add is when you're looking for a technology company and you're a roofer, you want to look for also some of these applications and companies are coming from out of the industry. I think it helps to have a company that is kind of steeped in your business and what you do, and it should be around your workflows and things. A lot of companies are bringing in big ERPs that come in and say we'll customize for you. But that's going to take a lot of money and a lot of time to customize it for your process. Or you can go with the company that really starts with the roofing business and really kind of says, how can we build something that mirrors your workflow. So that's one thing to look for.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Well, and along that, Steven, I want to kind of keep going, because I think it's important for contractors to understand the strength of a really strong development team and what that structure looks like. And the fact that you have a roadmap. Jobba has a roadmap that is contractor driven to take care of them. So maybe talk to us a little bit about your developers and that roadmap.

Steven White:
When we were kind of preparing for this, I was trying to think, what are some of the main things that you should look for in that technology company? And it's really what's underneath the hood is that development team. Who is leading the development, doing the coding, prioritizing the requirements? Do they have a process that's going to lead you through this? But one of the things is bench strength. You want to make sure that they have the right team and the right amount of people to be able to handle the work. So look at how Apple started and all this stuff. A couple guys in the garage. It's not as easy to do it these days. Now, if you're handling multiple clients and things, you need to have a team of people dedicated 24/7 to doing this.

Steven White:
So you want to make sure that they're able to deliver what they're promising. And why is this key? Because software as a service or SAS that we say is kind of what we're talking about. It's not off the shelf. It's something that you bring into your business and you can customize it to work with your business, but then you work with that technology partner to make it better. And as your business changes and you learn things. The software kind of changes with you. So we have to think about that journey of getting better together. We just don't expect it to work the way it's always going to work day one. You think about something like Uber. Started off just barely picking you up from one spot. Sometimes you'd have to walk 50 yards. Then they started delivering food and having pools and all these things develop over time and seeing what's going on with customers and what they want.

Jim Rizzo:
From a contractor perspective, the bigger guys are asking great questions. I love it. They're really starting to ask, Hey, how about your development team? And I almost fall off my chair because they're starting to figure out that out of the box you don't really have to ask a lot of those questions, because it's just kind of a product. But when you look at enterprise solutions like Jobba, you've got to really get in the weeds and really work with a company like us. And I think that's important when they introduce a roadmap to me, of course, me coming from product side, it's kind of from production schedule. So I didn't really understand what the roadmap meant, but now I do for 10 years.

Jim Rizzo:
Right. I understand what roadmaps, how important they are, because a couple things we've been burned before in this industry. A lot of people have had these roadmaps. A lot of stuff's never been built. And I think there's a lot of contractors there saying, okay, we want to know where you're at and what you're going to really build or are you just not going to build. We want to know, because we've been burned before we've hung on for five years waiting for something that never got built. So I think that's important. I think we've got to stick to our roadmap. We've got to work with people, but we got to be up front and transparent about it because transparency's going to help us with building the confidence that we're going to meet our goals.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. We know contractors have had bad experiences. They've had their data somewhat kidnapped. And those are the things that people just are not willing to deal with anymore. And so since we're on that, let's talk about that a little bit. The data management, I mean that's the lifeblood of a roofing company. All their customers, what they did for them, all the projects, everything. So Steven, how important is it to ask those kind of questions and what are some of the questions around data management that contractors should ask?

Steven White:
Well, a couple things to talk about with data. You mentioned the idea of having access to your data and making sure that you never lose the proprietary nature of that data. And that's really important. And we've seen some examples of that and also the privacy of that data. As companies start working closer together, there's more co-mingling of data and it can become a gray area. So that's a transparency point that even we, as a technology company, have to come out and be very upfront with our customers to say, okay, in this case this is public data. In this case, this is going to be private data. We need to talk about where that data should go. So those conversations need to be upfront.

Steven White:
But I think the other aspect of data I alluded to earlier is that when you are working with different technology apps in your business and thinking about how you want to stage them and work with them, you have to think about how the data flows. So to my example earlier, if a customer came to us recently and said, 'Hey, listen, I know you guys do everything. You have a lot of different things you do, but I just really want to do this. I just really want project management. I just want that one part.' Well, we can certainly do that for you. But it brings up the issue we've talked about before. If you just set up a project management software silo, how are you going to get the data in there? Where is it coming from? You're going to have to manually put that in if it's not connected in a smart way.

Steven White:
And then how are you going to get it out? So when it comes to data, I say, ask your software company. How they are staging things to minimize the amount of data crashes that you're going to be need to correct? So I always say you have to start at the beginning. That customer data comes in at the sales, right at the start. And then it kind of goes through like a river all through the process. So we plan things so that the data will flow naturally through your process. It takes time to do that. And is it always perfect? No, but that's always going to be our overriding goal is being mindful of the data.

Jim Rizzo:
Set data. Stewardship is just so important for a company today. I agree with what Steven's saying about where the data's housed and all the things that he's exposing is great, but stewardship really is about giving them the keys to linking the data. Giving them the keys so they can leave if they want. Give them the data that they need at the time when they want to leave. That's data stewardship explaining the kind of information to them so that they really understand. And I'm telling you, I'm getting asked more and more about data, which I fricking love. I think it's awesome. I think it's good that they ask these questions. I don't hide from it. We don't run from it. We run towards it is what I say.

Steven White:
Yeah. We really do embrace it because I don't want to go into too many technical details, but our database is constructed in such a way that it is scalable across all these different parts of your business. I've got a graphic up here, but this is audio. So you're, y'all, can't see it. But when you look at all the different areas of your business, when, if you're dealing with the software company that just does one thing really well, they don't really care about the data in all the other parts and how it flows. And that's why some of these problems come up. So another question is, make sure that you're a software company, even if they just do one thing that they're very well versed in how they help the data to work together and not be siloed.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And that really comes back down to that two way API. Right? You want to work? You want companies who are going to work well with each other who play well in the sandbox.

Jim Rizzo:
Yep, exactly. Some will. And I'll tell you Heidi, some won't yeah. It's just going to happen. And there's some that I know just aren't going to play and that's fine. That's the way it's going to be. But there's a lot of E R P out there. And there's a lot of guys that want to work this whole program and get the processes back down. So I think we're going down That route.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I mean, when you're doing redundant data entry, you're going to have mistakes and it's usually the numbers and those are the last things that you want to have mistakes on. So it needs to move back and forth. And let's talk just a little bit about security too, because I just get the heebie-jeebies every time I hear about somebody who's had ransomware or some of this stuff that's going on. So Jim, you're smiling and it's like, yeah, this is a big issue.

Jim Rizzo:
Well, it's a huge issue. The way we've done is because we take payments in Jobba, we meet all the banking, security stuff all the banking, security things. And I can't tell you exactly what that is, but I know we meet those expectations. We had to go through a big one when we were working with GAF. They went up and down where we were going and what our data looked like and our security certificate. I think it's. And it's where we're going, for sure.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And Steven asking those questions, contractors should be asking. What are you doing for our security? Because you're right, the privacy issue, you don't want that out there.

Steven White:
Yeah, absolutely. And especially, it's not as bad as it used to be, but people used to be more suspicious of Cloud and Cloud Software. Because they think, oh my data's out there somewhere in the cloud. But now with different encryptions and things, it's very safe. For instance, we use Google Cloud, secure Cloud software, some of the best kind of redundancy and backups. So if one thing goes down there, it's still being backed up. So you have to look at kind of the data center aspect as well.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Let's just kind of recap cause we've gone through a lot of them in here. And so Steven kind of maybe just recap, what are some of, and you said you'd made some notes beforehand, but what are some of those best practices as they're looking at different softwares. I love what you guys talked about before looking at what you have right now. What's the evaluation of what you have in your business and how can it be better? So talk to us a little bit about that.

Steven White:
Yeah. That's a great tee up, because I wanted to talk about one of the key things. Does your technology coming have a proven process? Do they have something that they've done over and over and over again? And can they show that to you on paper? We are Jobba. We are an EOS company. So if.. You're familiar with EOS Heidi?

Heidi Ellsworth:
Oh Yeah. Oh yeah. We're EOS.

Steven White:
You're EOS too? Okay, great. Right.

Jim Rizzo:
Keep it combined

Heidi Ellsworth:
Entrepreneurial Operating Systems in case you haven't heard of it.

Jim Rizzo:
Very good. Yep.

Steven White:
Coming up with that in my mind.

Jim Rizzo:
That's good stuff.

Steven White:
That was great for us because we're kind of a new EOS company, but we said, what is our proven process? Let's really clarify it. We were doing it so much, but then we wanted to look at it. So to your point, it's exactly what you said, Heidi. So the first tip or the first best practices, have you mapped out your current technology and workflow landscape? Simple process. We just did it with the customer, big customer, last week, Jim and I did. We sat down and we say, okay, what does the sales process look like for this company. Lead comes in, who takes it? What tech? Where are they housing the data? Where does it go next? What are the inputs and the outputs? So this is a kind of a mapping exercise.

Steven White:
It can be done on the back of a napkin or it can be done on a white board with 10 people, but you have to have some sense of what you have today and you have to have it mapped out. And I'm from a background that's very visual. So I think that thing has to be mapped out in some way and documented. So once you have that, then the next thing that you're going to do, or that would be recommended as a best practice is to then take a look at what are the pain points in that map, in that process. And usually a customer will say, you know what? We really hate that we're paying someone a salary just to input our accounting data into that other system. Boy, if we could get rid of that'd be great.

Steven White:
Or we really hate this because there's a lot of errors here. So then we look at the pain points and then together you map out with that tech partner, what is the future state? Where are we really trying to go? And what are we trying to change in those processes? Another EOS term: kill, keep and combined. What are we going to kill, keep or combine in our process. And from there you sit down and you've got an individual roadmap. We develop a mini roadmap for each customer from there. So for me, that's the first step because usually you're going to call someone. They're going to ask you a lot of questions and they just send you a proposal and you haven't done any of the due diligence of actually knowing what you have to do now. So

Jim Rizzo:
For me, the last part of my, my thing is more accountability. I think that is so important. We do for success. And look, when you're going through this, we're both going to be mad at each other and there's going to be times when it's not going to work great. And there's going to be times when the integration doesn't do it. It's not as simple as it was before. So, that's where we got to be accountable to each other

Steven White:
Because the point is you are accountable as well. As a customer, to be responsible in backing things up. Another key point is having a champion or somebody that is really taking a look at this. Roofing companies weren't made to, that's not in the history of roofing companies, having someone in charge of technology or someone that is dedicated to that. Someone in leadership needs to take that on and say, you know what? I'm going to provide the air cover that's needed. Because let's be frank here, it's not just technology. It's your business process. And your business workflow is tied to that.

Jim Rizzo:
Yep.

Steven White:
So whenever you go out and you say, Hey, field techs, we're going to do this now, what do you mean we're going to do this? You need to be able to announce it and educate.

Jim Rizzo:
You have to learn how to build, burn the boat, Steve. Burn, the boats.

Steven White:
Burn, burn the ships, like Hannibal, right?

Jim Rizzo:
Burn, those ships burn, those ships.

Steven White:
Yeah.

Jim Rizzo:
He's a wise man, Greg. You know Greg?

Steven White:
We were joking about that. So we were saying sometimes a company we've had this at, at Jobba. Someone said, oh, we turned everything else. And we just, we're just going full, full hog now. Well, no, that's too disruptive. You need to figure out how do you roll this out? Do you burn the ships like Hannibal invading Europe? Or do you say, you know what, let's pilot it in the Sarasota office, get the bugs out. And then in two months we're going to roll it out. You know, across the country, or we're just going to do this step for now and see how things go. And this kind of conversation is not, technology companies don't want to tell you a lot of this because they just want to get your business and move. We're trying to be better. We're trying to be more open and transparent in telling you, like Jim said. I love that Jim said, you're going to be mad at us if something goes wrong.

Jim Rizzo:
They're going to be mad.

Steven White:
It's a relationship. He's used to people being mad. This guy knows.

Jim Rizzo:
No, no, I think it's important because you have to account to each other. Some of their people may not have made our meetings. It's that whole thing of for success, we have to work with each other. And I love when Greg Wallack used that term, burn their boats back, that day when I worked with him. It's great philosophy. I think it's something that the management team has to do. And in order to make this all work, because it's not going to be as easy, getting these systems all to talk to themselves, it's going to take a longer process. It might take, for bigger companies, a year to get this done. It's not going to happen next week. We're not just going to plug it in. It's not like that. So I think that's why it's important to have accountability on both sides.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I love it. I love the accountability. I love putting your processes in place ahead of time, writing it down. Think. Evaluating what you already have and how well it all plays in the sandbox together and where you're going. Really just like you talked about asking your tech company, if they have a roadmap, every roofing company should also have a roadmap. This is the kind of wisdom contractors need. This is the kind transparency that we need.

Jim Rizzo:
Thank you for doing this and your work with Roofers Coffee Shop and RT3, you're really a great educational partner in this industry.

Heidi Ellsworth:
We need to all help each other holding hands.

Jim Rizzo:
That's right.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I'm going to say to all of you who are listening to this very fun podcast, thank you. Thank you for taking your time. The folks at Jobba, seriously, this is the kind of stuff that they deliver every day to the customers who work with them or the people who are not, just as contractors overall. And like Steven said at the very beginning, helping to transform the industry. We need this technology. We need the transformations and they're making it possible. You can see all of it and everything they do on their directory on Roofer's Coffee Shop of course, along with all of their articles, educational eBooks, just tremendous information that will make a difference in your company. So gentlemen, one last time, thank you so much for being here.

Jim Rizzo:
Thank you. Appreciate it.

Steven White:
Thank you Heidi.

Jim Rizzo:
All right, Heidi.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And thank all of you for being here. Please watch or listen to all of our podcasts. You can find them under read, listen, watch under our podcast and our partner podcast, and you can also find them on your favorite podcast channel. Be sure to subscribe. Hit the notifications so you don't miss a single one and we'll see you on the next Roofing Road Trips.

Speaker 1:
Make sure to subscribe to our channel and leave a review. Thanks for listening. This has been Roofing Road Trips with Heidi, from the rooferscoffeeshop.com.