Greg Hudson - Combating Fire & Foot Traffic - PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Greg Hudson of Georgia Pacific. You can read the interview below or listen to the podcast.

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Heidi J. Ellsworth: Hello and welcome to Roofing Road Trips from RoofersCoffeeShop. My name is Heidi Ellsworth and we are here today to talk about something that is happening right now and that is wildfires, fires on the roof and foot traffic. You may wonder, "How does all that go together?" What it is all about is durable roofs, roofs that perform over time. So of course, we had to get our ongoing guest and expert, Greg Hudson with Georgia Pacific, to join me today to talk about all this. Hello, Greg.

Greg Hudson: Hello, thank you for having me again. I wouldn't go as far as saying I'm an expert, but I do appreciate our conversations and as we talk about durability and fire resistance, this is something very dear and dear to our heart as a manufacturer of gypsum products.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I have to tell you, I love these ongoing conversations that you and I have. All the podcasts that we've done, we've talked about solar, we've talked about so many different things, durability, solar-ready roofs and today, man, it kind of hits to the heart, considering I'm out here in the Pacific Northwest and we're kind of on fire right now. So let's start with an introduction. Why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself? Tell us what you do with Georgia Pacific, and then we're going to dive right in.

Greg Hudson: Yeah, and I'm Greg Hudson. I'm the director of commercial Dens sales at Georgia Pacific Building Products, and in the commercial roofing space, the brand that we're talking about is our DensDeck roof board and our family of roof boards and the DensDeck line.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Excellent. So okay, let's talk a little bit about what's going on with fires across the country. I mean, I know the West is really leading, but we've had fires this year in Texas, throughout some of the Southeast, we're seeing through the Midwest, especially up in Montana area and now Pacific Northwest. What are you seeing, Greg, with, really, buildings and their durability to be able to perform against fire?

Greg Hudson: Yeah, I think this is a great, great topic and it's not a topic that impacts just the West or just large areas of vacant land and forest. If you think about whether it's the population shift in the United States, some of the Southern states seeing more population shift based on moderate climates, whether it's California, Texas, North Carolina, Georgia, Arizona, you go through all these areas and one of the things that you're seeing, combined with... We go through periods of urban sprawl and urban renewal, is we're seeing that urban sprawl again.

And not only are people moving from urban areas out into some more suburban or rural areas, you're seeing commercial low-slope roofs, whether it's schools, whether it's grocery stores, multifamily, lots of different things. And at the same time, even the urban areas are doing some significant initiatives around adding more green space. So again, adding that vegetation into an area that potentially could be fuel for a fire as these wildfires...

And we're specifically going to talk about wildfires a little bit, and then on just structured fires in general. But one of the big topics that we see a lot is it's called WUI, W-U-I and it's the wildland-urban interface and that that's a zone, it's zone of transition between unoccupied land and human development.

Could be single-family residential, but like I said, there's a lot of these things in commercial low-slope roofing where these structures are going into these serene vegetative settings and it's a liner area zone, where structures and other human development meet or intermingle with the undeveloped wildland or vegetative fields. And when we say vegetative fields, you think of these organic trees, leaves, things like that that potentially could be fuel for a fire and spread, as you all are dealing with in Oregon, you see Canada, definitely seen the devastating impacts in multiple, multiple areas.

And as we think about looking at the areas impacted as these population shifts and the development into these wildland-urban interface areas, if you look at some of the largest areas, it is these states that we just talked about, it is the North Carolina, the Texas, the Pennsylvania, the Georgia. And at the same time, these are some of your largest single-player, your [inaudible 00:05:00] states as well.

So [inaudible 00:05:04] is really... [inaudible 00:05:06] doesn't move as fast as it should and sometimes it doesn't mean written but being implemented, it doesn't. But we're seeing a lot of activity around what they call fire hardening, and that's getting structures to be more fire resistant, specifically from things like wildfire. And California, it's really taken the lead in most common construction for the future code. But other states are looking and taking things that make sense for them, kind of building that fire hardening into their code requirements.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, and you know, I find it fascinating, because really, this is what it's about, is having buildings to be able to withstand the embers that are flying. That's causes so much, the spread, obviously, of a wildfire, are the embers. And if buildings can be more resistant to that, I think that can make such a huge difference from a wildfire aspect. How do you see the industry, I mean the roofing industry, starting to change? Because you're right, a lot of times codes or implementation of codes don't keep up, but building owners and insurance companies are definitely pushing the buttons to say, "We need a different solution."

Greg Hudson: You are 100% correct. You see the building owners specifically working with their insurance companies, and the premiums associated with and saying, "Okay, how do I become more hardened against fire? How do I slow the spread?" And look at that, and it's giving the roofing contractors and the roofing manufacturers a chance to talk about more fire-resilient options that are out there. And where typically it might've been a budget conscious decision, they're looking at what's the lowest cost in which I can replace or build a new building with a roof and now they're adding these factors going, "Okay, but they also need to meet this criteria. They also need to help us in these other areas."

And fortunately, we're in a great industry where you have contractors, manufacturers, consultants and designers that have these options out there and it's opening up the conversation. And our subject matter experts in this space are able to pitch multiple alternatives. It's not like we don't have products or systems to help mitigate these risks. It's now, we're actually having a good conversation with the building owner on identifying what their needs are and how the products and services that the contractor is supplying really help meet those needs.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, and it's really true, because we're seeing, as we go, like I just said, that the building codes and the regulations, it's going to change. We know it is, because you can't watch the nightly news and not see the fires and what's going on. And when you really look at it, it's not just wildland fires that we're worried about or wildfires, but it is... You and I, we just had an awesome coffee conversations a couple weeks ago on solar-ready roofs and the concern with fire from solar arrays. I found that fascinating, I didn't really understand what started a fire until we had that panel on there. I was like, "Oh, I get it now." But yeah, talk a little bit about that too or just in the city, when you're looking at fire danger, because that's a real thing too with what's going on.

Greg Hudson: Yeah, first and foremost, any building owner, whether it's a high-occupancy building like a school or an apartment building or a factory or something along those lines, it comes down to life safety. They want to keep the people that are in there safe, and fire is one of those ones that can have catastrophic human impact. The second piece of that is it really comes down to the value and cost of that asset, the cost of interrupted operations that go along with it. And we're seeing a lot more owners take that asset approach, and looking at the value of their building and the value of having this resilient design, whether it is fire or other topics that we did talk about.

But one of the things that you look at quite often, and whether it's in an urban zone or a sub-urban zone, you see industrial parks, you see areas where they try to separate the commercial from the residential or at least from the light commercial and it's structure to structure. One building catches fire and then it puts the entire industrial park or the entire complex at risk. And that's something as well where applying alternatives to help really contain that to the limited amount of structures that it can impact can be done with current products and current offerings that are on the market today, and seeing a lot more adoption in that area as well.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, yeah, when you think about, it's not just solar, it's HVAC units, there's so much electrical, all the new telecommunications, I mean, there's just so many opportunities for something to happen that it has to be... And to your point earlier, and maybe it's just where I'm at in my career now, but risk mitigation, I don't remember people talking about risk mitigation 20 years ago, right? But now, that's all you hear about.

Greg Hudson: There 100% is, because there's real impacts. And unfortunately, sometimes they are human impacts and you want to minimize those as much as possible. But from a cost, it's built into your long-term modeling that if something's going to happen, as a building owner, as interruptions and operations, as your insurance company talks to you about your premiums and everything, it's really broadened the vision as when you look at a building versus, "It's just a building, this is what I'm going to do in it and I don't think much beyond that."

You see, whether it's maintenance managers, facility managers or just a building owner themselves, they're seeking that education. And like I said, fortunately, we have a great industry with system manufacturers and contractors in the design community that's looking to... We have that education, let's those conversations and let's build in that resilient design into your structure.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I have some other thoughts too that I want to talk about further on into our conversation, but I do want to talk just specifically right now on some of those systems. Really, as contractors are looking to provide solutions to their building owners from fire-resistant roofing systems and really doing what needs to protect it, let's talk a little bit about the cover board and how important that is in that equation and in those systems and how can they talk to their building owners about that?

Greg Hudson: Yeah, I think that's a really good conversation that needs to happen, because as we think about fire resistance, you measure the fire resistance of the roof system and there are a lot of... You know, majority of the systems out there meet the bare minimum code. But as you talk to your building owner and you talk about the needs and the risks that are out there, a cover board, like a gypsum cover board, can get you significantly above the code resistance, because it's non-combustible in nature and in addition to that fire resistant, you get all the other additional benefits that you get from a rigid cover board versus just a membrane, over an insulation, over a roof deck that may meet bare minimum code. So it's really thinking about what's the best value versus what is the best cost associated with it?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Not only risk, but longevity.

Greg Hudson: Yes.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: The longevity of that roof, how much ROI is there in that. One of the things too that you really make me think about when we were talking about those cover boards is, and let's talk about California again, the increase in insulation, codes of how much insulation you have to have and that's spreading across the country for energy costs. It seems like it's more important than ever, when you're thinking about everything that goes onto a roof, how much insulation is there, that you have that strength, that you're actually providing a protective layer for that insulation. What are you seeing there? Because I mean, that's also kind of this whole ride.

Greg Hudson: Yeah, even beyond California, like I said, it's across the country and you see it in some of the incentives that have been out there from a sustainability perspective, to really utilize less energy to heat and cool your building. So you're seeing increased amounts of insulation getting in on the roof, and to keep that insulation performing optimally, a rigid cover board like a DensDeck or a DensDeck Prime cover board is going to really help ensure that that insulation is performing for its life cycle in that roof system. And you're like, "Well, how exactly does that work?" And the compressive strength in gypsum cover board like DensDeck is around 900 PSI. Polyiso insulation is around 30 to 40, depending on which type of insulation you do have out there. A high-density, polyiso is 90 to 100 or 80 to 100, somewhere in there.

But when you think about the added foot traffic that are on these roofs, you increase the risk of cavitating, crushing, of puncturing the membrane and then getting leaks into that insulation. And therefore, you can have all this insulation, but if it's not performing as it was designed from an energy perspective, then it's not really doing you a lot of good to have that insulation. So you want to make sure that all parts of the system, and that's where something as simple as a rigid cover board could add that added layer of protection, increase puncture resistance, increase compressive strength, so that insulation is staying intact, staying as designed on that roof and increase the life cycle of the roof to go along with that.

But it really ties back to we don't have a singular problem and we don't have a singular solve out there in commercial roofing. There's multiple forces that are looking to impact them. If you think about the way a roof works, it's facing upward and everything's trying to degrade or deteriorate that roof over time and one product into a system that can have a significant impact is that rigid cover board, to meet of a lot of those challenges that are being thrown at your roof system.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, I mean, as you well know, I'm singing to the choir here, but it just seems like the need and the demand is going to continue to rise. Again, going back to what all do we have on the roof? We have HVAC, we have telecommunications, we have solar arrays, we have livable space, people are walking and then we have all the maintenance that goes around that. So foot traffic is increased exponentially on the roof. What are you seeing that way and how important is that cover board within that, all of the foot traffic for all the different trades and just people?

Greg Hudson: I think you just nailed the key highlight there. When a commercial low-slope roofer goes onto a roof, they're very mindful, it almost is their baby. As they look at it, they're doing maintenance inspections, they're doing all these things. They understand, they check the bottom of their boot to make sure there's not a piece of gravel or the tools being dropped. But when you get to the other trades, they're really focused on their trade, the HVAC, all the different things that go along with that. And you want to see some interesting clashes, think about a roofing contractor and then when there's service on these equipments, the covers, the screws, the way in which they walk, the dropping of tools and not completely understanding the limitations of that roof system.

And that's where that peace of mind comes with a rigid cover board, to get you that increased puncture resistance for the membrane, increased compressive strength to protect that insulation and really give you a much more versatile durability than sticking to things like walk paths, which is a good, great concept and could be very effective. But do people follow them? Does every person that go up there follow a walk path and then understanding, "Okay, that walk path might've been good for what equipment was on that roof at that time." Well, how does that evolve over the 15 to 20 years? Does that roof, that roof memory, that roof assembly is going to be in service?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, yeah. I really, I just think, well, we were just on a roof, we just did a live RLW for a CoatingsCoffeeShop on the roof and none of us stayed on the walk paths. I mean, it was in the middle of restoration anyway, but I'm like, "Oh, my gosh." And that's going to continue to happen. And so one of the things, Greg, that I have for years... I mean, back to my Carlisle days, I've always been just enamored with this concept of acreage on the roof, how much acreage is on the roof out there? And if you took all the acres of rooftops, how much could we be doing with it that we're not doing right now, that's not providing ROI?

So that's kind of changed. We now are seeing, like I said, the solar arrays, we're seeing livable space, all the internet, telecommunications, all that kind of stuff. What should contractors be looking at when they are talking to their building owners? Because even though that roof right now maybe just only has HVAC on it, but in 5 years, 10 years, it could have solar, it could be a livable space, it could have more telecommunications. I mean, who knows what's going to be on the roof going forward? What are some of the things... How's that conversation look for the contractors as they're talking to their building owners about these impact-ready roofs?

Greg Hudson: Yeah, one of the things that we see or actually, I should say here a lot, is really we ask the contractors that we see being successful getting cover boards in the roofs, even when the contractor is the design of record, it's a re-roof application, there's not an architect or consultant involved that's specified a cover board in there. So they are acting as kind of that designer. And one of the most successful conversations or areas in which they do is applying that asset mentality.

If you're a manufacturer and you have a piece of machinery, you're looking at that asset mentality. Well, it should be the same for your structure and specifically for your roof. What is the long-term performance? What's the long-term value of this? What's the cost of interrupted operations to go along with that, to get them in there? And then, that leads them down the path, okay, that's today. What does that look like in year 5, 10, 15? And then, they can bring them, "Here are some trends we are seeing with other folks," because building owners do like to benchmark themselves against other building owners.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah.

Greg Hudson: And, "Here are things that we're seeing out there with solar, with vegetative roof systems, with things like roof deck, plaza decks and entertainment spaces," all of the other acres that you talk about that could be used for other things, whether that's gray water retention, there's so many different things. And have that checklist, and go down and things that you've seen on other jobs, bring that up to the owners that you're working on, because you might see something that they're not even aware of or thinking about or anything else.

And really staying up to speed, whether it's podcasts like this that talk about, "Hey, here's kind of what's coming, here's what's on the periphery, on the horizon," and then let's check in along the way, because not everything spreads as equally or as fast as it does in other areas, but it's good. And it really adds that credibility for the roofing contractor as a valued partner to that building owner or facility manager of, "Hey, they're looking out for my best interest, not only today, but during the life cycle of that roof as well."

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Right, I love it. And really good contractors, you hear them talk about this all the time. They sit down with their building owners and they ask them what their goals are. "What are your long-term goals? Are you considering this? Are there measurements that you have to hit?" I mean, Prologis is a great example. They're, you know, net 30 carbon I think by 2030. And what are those goals and and are you ready for that? Are you ready with this roof? You're going to save a lot of money, rather than having to retrofit in 10 years from now.

Greg Hudson: Exactly, and they're really applying that partnership approach when they're speaking to them. "I can help you achieve those goals, I can help you do that at potentially the highest value, lowest cost possible and give you some options," outside of the traditional, transactional, "I had this roof, I want this roof." There's so much more depth than that, and the best, most successful contractors are doing that. They're getting into that space. And whether it's their salespeople, their estimating staff or anything along the way, "Have you thought about X? Have you thought about Y?" And even if they say no, you still have that credibility, because you're bringing those things up.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: And it's really everywhere. I mean, everywhere in the US, I don't care what you're doing, you're either dealing with fire, a severe hail, high winds and everybody, no matter where you're at, are going to have equipment on the roof and solar is just the thing. It's going to happen, one way or the other. It's just a matter of time.

So as the contractors are working through this, I know you've done a lot of studies, you guys, Georgia Pacific, you guys are just awesome with the studies that you do, working with companies like FMI and all these different folks, but you've done some building owner studies also around cover boards and stuff. What are some of the things that you can just kind of point out to contractors about some of the things you've learned over the years, Greg, on really what's important in talking to those building owners about cover boards?

Greg Hudson: Two greatest impacts, this would be from a contractor perspective and this is a mutually beneficial play, the two greatest impacts you can have to the longevity and the long-term performance of that roof system, kind of to meet all these forces that are out there, adding a rigid cover board. I go back to the statistic from the FMI study that talked about 86% of the time it met its life cycle. When a cover board was used, it was 52% of the time, when a cover board wasn't used... And the other one is an effective preventive maintenance program.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah.

Greg Hudson: It's so important, and the preventive maintenance isn't because there's an issue with the quality of materials. It's all that vegetation, and it gathers up, it blocks scuppers. It potentially could be fuel for the fire to go along with it. And circling back to how we started that, and in selling that whole piece to the owner in that partnership arrangements, like, "This is how we're going to help you in the long run, and this is how we're going to ensure that you are maximizing the life cycle of the roof membrane, but also the performance of the roof system and reduce the overall operational maintenance costs."

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, service maintenance, twice a year, get up there, do it right up front. And then, because you're right, I mean, you know [inaudible 00:26:05] the roof.

Greg Hudson: You change the oil in your car, don't you?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, exactly.

Greg Hudson: You change the oil in the car. In the car, you do preventive maintenance in the car-

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I know.

Greg Hudson: And that's depending on what type of investment you have, that's not as big as a roof. So let's think about making sure that we have those quality materials, but we have those practices in place to go along with it.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, and I love how you just tied that right back into the fire too, because it's, yes, you have to have a fire resistance system, the cover board's non-combustible, but if you have a bunch of junk up there, trash, vegetation-

Greg Hudson: Debris.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: ... blown-in debris, yeah, it's-

Greg Hudson: You and I both travel quite a bit. How often do we go to our hotel rooms, and you look at... Whether it's in an area where you're from an elevated state, higher floors, you look around the city and you see lots of roofs and you can see piles of debris, whether it's natural vegetative debris that's sitting there or you see actual trash just gathered up on these roof systems? And that's so important.

You can design and build in all the resilience you want, but you have to maintain that as well. And I think they're all tied together, and the contractors that are having the most success are tying all that together. We're going to work with you on the front end to help you achieve your goals, give you a system, includes a rigid cover board and then we're going to make sure that that roof is performing optimally throughout its life cycle.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, with regular service and maintenance. Wow, that ties it all just nice, into a nice little bow. I love it. And I was going to say how can contractors stay ahead of these trends? But right there, you just answered my question for me. Service and maintenance, and do it right at the first place, including cover boards, so that you have that risk mitigation for that building owner. Where can contractors get more information and see some of these reports?

Greg Hudson: Yeah, I would reach out... I would go on the internet and you go to DensDeck.com, and that'll play to our site. And we have everything from case studies, project profiles, all the technical data that you need or reach out to your local Georgia Pacific DensDeck rep. We have reps across the country. We have reps in Canada, Mexico and Europe now. So reach out to a DensDeck rep, and they'd be more than happy to walk through the value of a cover board in a commercial low-slope roof system.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, use that information with your building owners and now's the time. Now's the time that everybody's starting to work on their budgets for 2025. They're looking, wanting to figure out what they're going to be doing with their roofing portfolio. So now, to have this information is just critical for every roofing company out there. You can find all this information, too, on the Georgia Pacific directory, on RoofersCoffeeShop. So that will help get you to DensDeck.com, along with a bunch of information of what's happening right now. Greg, as always, I love these conversations.

Greg Hudson: I do as well, so thank you very much for the opportunity and I look forward to our next one.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I can't wait. This is an ongoing series that, as Greg and I are talking about all things low-slope roofing and what's happening out there, what's trending, what people should be thinking about, so check them out all of the Georgia Pacific podcasts on their directory, like I said and check out all of our podcasts on your favorite podcast channel. Be sure to subscribe and set those notifications. Greg, one more time, thank you so much and we'll be seeing you soon.

Greg Hudson: Thank you, Heidi.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Thank you, and we'll be seeing you all soon. Thank you, and we'll see you next time on Roofing Road Trips.

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