Eric Younkin - Nailing Down the Essentials of Wood Nailers & Alternatives - PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Eric Younkin of Carlisle Architectural Metals (CAM). You can read the interview below or listen to the podcast.

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Karen Edwards: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Roofing Road Trips. My name's Karen Edwards, and today we are going to be talking all about wood nailers and alternatives and to have this conversation, we've invited the expert into the house, Eric from Carlisle Architectural Metals. Welcome.

Eric Younkin: Hey, thanks for having me, Karen.

Karen Edwards: Eric. So could you just introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about you and what your role is there?

Eric Younkin: Sure. Eric Younkin. As you mentioned, I'm with Carlisle Architectural Metals. Real quickly, what Carlisle Architectural Metals is, it is composed of five brands. Historically, it was Peterson Metals and Drexel Metals. And then in addition, the recent acquisition by Carlisle of MTL Holdings, which includes Citadel Architectural Products as well as Hickman Edge Systems and Metal-Era. So this whole thing about wind nailers and alternatives is really going to gear around our two brands related to Edge Metal, that being Metal-Era and Hickman Edge Systems.

Karen Edwards: Excellent. Okay. And what do you do there?

Eric Younkin: So I am in charge of both the product management, product development teams as well as our technical services/engineering team. So in terms of anything that goes on designing a project, we assist in developing products codes and testing and anything that touches the product cycle.

Karen Edwards: Excellent. That's a lot of responsibility. All right, so let's talk about wood nailers and what they are and what their job is.

Eric Younkin: So wood nailers typically, some might refer to it as blocking, but it's wherever we're going to have a termination of the roof system. Predominantly we refer to it mostly at the edge, but we also see it internally around any type of maybe a curb or something or a roof hatch or something of that sort. But it's really, historically it's been a wood component that is put on the wall or on the roof deck that allows you to build up the insulation equal to the height of the wood and allows for securement of both the roofing membrane and more importantly the edge securement, so the metal edge, whether that be a drip edge or some type of fascia. It's really the foundation for edge securement. So it's the unseen factor that really goes into performance on the edge.

Karen Edwards: Wow. So it plays an important role in keeping the roof on the roof during severe weather, right?

Eric Younkin: Absolutely. And as I mentioned, typically we've seen these, typically you'll see two by sixes. That's the standard that you see in the industry. Both Spry and Factory Mutual have guidelines do their literature on what is a wood nailer as well as the NRCA. Typically, everybody says a minimum of a two by six, but if you have a flange, a metal edge that has a bigger flange, you want to make sure that your wood nailer extends beyond that flange of the metal enough so you have proper securement. But for the most part, we'll refer to these as two by sixes.

Karen Edwards: Okay, so why wood? That's what I want to know. Is it just because it's universal?

Eric Younkin: Why wood. Yeah. Well, wood's been around for a long time. It absolutely has. It's proven, it's time tested and it works very well. The securement of the wood is very critical. So anytime we talk about a wood nailer, we have to make sure that we're securing the wood nailer accordingly, either to the wall or to the roof deck. And a lot of people might say, "Well, how do you do that?" That's where we have to rely on some design pressures and the designer of record coming in and saying, "Hey, this is how you should be installing your wood nailer." As I mentioned before, both Spry and Factory Mutual have guidelines. So if you are looking for some type of way of how do I install them, what are the fastening patterns I use, that's critical. But it's been around, it's time tested, as I said and it really goes unnoticed.

So on a lot of existing roofs, you'll see if we're going to do a tear off or a re-roof, a lot of times the wood nailer is reused as long as it is in good shape. Typically, that is written into a specification where it says it becomes the responsibility of the contractor to replace that with like and kind. I think it's important that we understand looking at that wood nailer to ensure that it is in good working condition is critical. If there's any sign of deterioration, if there's a sign that it wasn't fastened properly, that's key as well. So there's a lot of things that go into what that looks like. On a new construction job, typically it's written into specification, typically under the carpentry section of the specification. So that's typically where you'll see them. But whenever you're installing wood, it's critical that you design it accordingly to meet the uplift pressures for the design.

Karen Edwards: Wow. So we mentioned alternatives. Wood's been around, it's time tested, it's proven, there's all these great things about wood. So what are some alternatives and why might someone want to use something that's not wood?

Eric Younkin: Well, that's a great question. So if we talk about wood, it's time tested, it's been around, it works well. So when we do talk about wood though, you have to think about what are some of maybe the cons. There's several pros, but some of the cons. We have the question of do I use pressure treated or treated wood lumber or not? There's a lot of questions around that and varying opinions. If you're going to use pressure treated lumber, you got to make sure that you're going to use the right fastener. That's not going to have any corrosion from the copper that's in the retardant that goes into the wood. If you're not using pressure treated wood, you got to be very careful to protect it that it does not get wet at all.

So you run into that situation, so you have the question, treat it or not and then you really get into, God forbid, I did this not too recently, trying to go get some two by fours to build something outside that was pressure treated lumber and spent hours going through the wood bin at the local lumber store trying to get something that's straight.

You get a lot of warping, they're just not straight. So that becomes a pain as well when installing. So you start to look at some of those things and then when you do go to re-roof it, again, replace it with like and kind. Is it good? Are you sure it's good? Those are some of the cons you might see with wood nailer. So what you're starting to see more of in the marketplace is what I would say is metal alternatives, whether that be some type of galvanized material or more so even extruded pieces. So you're basically going to have an extruded aluminum piece that you would anchor into your roof deck or into your wall. That would then become the point of securement for your roof membrane and edge. So that you're starting to see more of that.

With some of the galvanized options, you're able to, they come in smaller sections, so you could actually create radiuses and curves quite easily as opposed, imagine if you had a radius coping or a radius edge, having your wood nailer meet the radius of the building could be hard to meet the aesthetics. So we have these metal components that are a little easier to radius. So that's one particular thing. And then take a look at extruded aluminum. It is straight, it's going to be straight and then once you install it, you don't have to worry about any of the waviness or any of the deterioration to the wood that, God forbid, you ever get moisture into your roof system.

Karen Edwards: Yeah, okay. So that makes sense because in my mind I'm thinking wood and you said outdoor structures, wood decks, they have to be sealed, they have to be protected, because they can deteriorate and rot. But metal you would think then offers the advantage of longevity.

Eric Younkin: Yeah, absolutely. It's not going to rot. A lot of these metal components that come to the job site are what I would say they have holes pre-drilled, so you know exactly where the fastener should go. There's no guessing. So that's another thing. But the other thing is since it doesn't rot and it won't over time degrade, when you do go to re-roof it, there's no roof replacing with like or kind because the aluminum is going to still be there. So you talk about that in terms of performance, but also sustainability for the longevity of the roof and the building.

Karen Edwards: So we were talking a little bit about when roof systems fail and the role that the edge metal or the wood nailers play. Is that the main reason in severe weather events why we see roof system failures is because of the edge metal?

Eric Younkin: There's been studies done by Factory Mutual and others. When you look at roof failures that are caused or associated with wind, typically a roof blow off, it is estimated that 60 plus percent of those failures are attributed to perimeter edge metal. So for roof failures that are caused by weather events, it's the perimeter edge that's really the intricate part, that being your cleat. Again, your membrane is going to run over your wood nailer and down and it should extend beyond the wood nailer about an inch just to prevent water back up there. But then you put your cleat on and your cleat is then securing into your wood nailer, securing your membrane as well. And then you have your cover, which is you're aesthetically looking, your nice colors on the side of the roof. That is the first line of defense. So we always talk about edge metal being critical to performance.

It absolutely is, but the underlying piece there is what the edge metal is attached to and that is the nailer and ensuring that the nailer is secured properly. So it is really, when you look at the roof, everything looks great, but if that nailer is compromised below that roof, it can blow off, even though the roof looks perfectly good. You could have the best edge metal system, but if that nailer is compromised or if it's not done right, you could have a problem. What we see a perfect example is, they may not use the right fastener. I've seen situations where they've used plywood in a wood nailer and they use nails that's not going to have the bite that a faster would have, and that's actually something else that comes up. If you have a piece of plywood that's a half an inch, if you're securing your edge metal into that, how are you going to hit the middle of that piece of wood?

And it's going to split. You're going to have no pull resistance. So when I mentioned earlier, you see two by sixes, you don't like to see the use of plywood in nailers. It's just not ideal. I would say that with one caveat though, it could be used if it's going to be used as a spacer. If you're going to use it to build a little bit of height, you have to build a half an inch. Okay, use it as a spacer. But the main thing is when your edge metal is attached, you want the fastener of your edge metal to go in the middle of the two by six, not into any sheets of plywood.

Karen Edwards: Okay. Wow. It's making me a little nervous because it sounds like it just has to be so exact and so precise. And the [inaudible 00:12:29]-

Eric Younkin: You know, the good thing is in our industry, the NRC has had a lot of good recommendations over the years and a lot of people get it. Well, I think what really happens is and we actually did this in a poll recently, we asked a bunch of designers says who's responsible for designing the wood nailer? And in the new construction, it's pretty clear. It goes into, as I mentioned, the carpentry section. But on reroofing, there's a lot of roofs that are installed throughout North America that do not have a specification written around it. The ones that have a specification from whether it be an architect or a roof consultant, they typically address the wood nailer in some fashion. Hopefully it's a little bit more than just replace with like and kind, but it's the other vast majority of roofs that are being put down that do not have a specification.

But historically, those roofing contractors have always followed the NRC recommendation and if they do it the right way, it works. Otherwise, we would've had major disasters long ago. But I think it's important to bring it up as a topic just because seeing a lot more wind events throughout the country, whether that be in South Florida, where historically that's where we always thought of high winds, that's working all the way up the Gulf Coast, the eastern seaboard, we see severe storms out in the desert. Tornadic activity throughout the Midwest has increased dramatically. So wind events are becoming more and more common. Therefore, I think we see more and more failures because of perimeter edge failure and it really gives us attention to, let's just take a look at it a little deeper, ensure that all the components for securement are good.

Karen Edwards: Well, yeah, because when there is wind events or severe weather, often we look at the damage and we say, "Okay, why did this fail? What was the problem?" And that's where we see it was you Mr. Wood nailer, you didn't do your job or you weren't installed properly. So we study this and we learn from it. And thankfully we have folks like NRCA who are publishing guidelines.

Eric Younkin: Yeah. IBEX, part of that is they have Recowy. Recowy is a group of people that go out after storms and investigate failures. And really what they're doing, they're not trying to point blame. They're truly trying to understand what is happening and then how do we prevent it just to keep the industry going in the right direction, given innovative ideas, which is really why I think these wood nailer alternatives are really key. Wood's not the same it was. If you ask an old-timer like me, wood's not the same as it was before. What they're using to pressure treat it, all of that stuff. So I think having these alternatives that give sustainability options for the longevity of the building are just a part of the evolution of the industry.

Karen Edwards: Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned sustainability because I think that's more on people's minds than ever before. And when you can offer solutions like metal that have that longevity or even for better performing roofing systems, because your roof's going to last longer.

Eric Younkin: And that's what it comes down to. You're right. A lot of people forget sustainability as longevity of the current roof system. It's just not, oh, is it recyclable? Or something like that. But if I can make that roof last another five, 10 years beyond what the service of whole life was expected to be, that is sustainable. Protecting the roof from failure from wind events is part of that sustainability.

Karen Edwards: Yeah. Yeah, that's key, I think and this has been super informative for me anyway, in understanding why so often, especially you see it in construction and industries like roofing, we've done it this way. It's worked fine. I don't need to try anything new or I don't need to change anything. But then we have Carlisle Architectural Metals who are looking for the next innovative solution, the better performing product. And so it's great to see companies like yours leading that way and making things stronger and better.

Eric Younkin: Always innovating, always trying to get better. And I think it's a fun industry to be in. I've been in 25 years and a lot has changed, and I think we're continuing to push that envelope in a good way. The reason this came up for us, just the educational piece is we realized looking at continuing education, there was never anything really out there on this topic. So we actually have an AIA both through the Metal-Era and through the Hickman Edge systems. Both brands have an AIA presentation, Geardrum. This specific topic goes into greater detail about some of those SPRY and FM standards and the specific spacing patterns based upon the wind loads and stuff like that.

So we did it recently, had tremendous feedback and what we learned is the number of questions we got and what was being asked, we realized that there's a gap here. We might talk about the chemistry behind a roofing product or what it might be with something else, but we realized that there's a gap and a need for education to our design community on these wood nailers, how they're done and then also the alternative solutions. So we're very excited. This is a hot topic for us, and we're really hoping to take advantage of the interest to spread the word and let people know what to be looking for wood nailers and the alternatives.

Karen Edwards: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, nobody wants to design a roof that's going to fail, right?

Eric Younkin: Exactly.

Karen Edwards: So I was going to ask if you have resources, if a contractor has questions, what does that support look like that you can give to the design professionals and contractors?

Eric Younkin: So as I mentioned, we have both the brands, Metal-Era and Hickman Edge Systems, two totally different websites, metalera.com, hickmanedgesystems.com. We also have our local representatives in every market. You could reach out, and I don't have the phone numbers handy, I apologize, but you could reach out, look us up on Google, call.

We could connect you to one of our technical sales representatives at our internal, we could get you in touch with our field sales folks. We also have a group, what we call our regional technical sales or RTSs. These are people that are from the industry, know the industry, that understand the edge and they can get out and also assist you in the field with doing measurements and coming up with solutions.

So those resources are available, and our website has all the information about the alternative options for wood nailers, whether that be a one-page slick that explains the features and benefits, some of an order sheet that talks about the specific sizes. One of the things with metal, you can't vary the height. It is what it is, especially on an extrusion, but they're kind of matched up to what standard heights are for insulation. So you'll notice that the standard heights align specifically to the specific R values you typically see in the market. So all of that's available through our website as well.

Karen Edwards: Excellent. Wow. Eric, thank you so much for being here today and for sharing this very valuable information. For those who want to get in contact with Metal-Era or Hickman, they do have full on Rooferscoffeeshop.com and Metalcoffeeshop.com, so you can check them out there and that would have their phone number contact information as well. Eric, thank you. It was a pleasure having you.

Eric Younkin: Always. Thank you very much and I look forward to talking more about this and helping the industry grow and innovate better.

Karen Edwards: Awesome. And thank you everyone out there for listening to this episode. We hope to see you on a future episode of Roofing Road Trips. Be sure to follow us on social media because we don't want you to miss a thing, and we'll see you next time.

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