Coffee Conversations LIVE from WRE 2023! - PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Scott Johnson, Anthony Martin and Fernando Silvia from APOC. You can read the interview below, listen to the podcast or watch the webinar.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Good morning and welcome to Vegas. This is the RoofersCoffeeShop. We are live on the sound stage at the Western Roofing Expo. My name is Heidi Ellsworth. First interview of the show. We are so excited I am sitting here with the regional managers of APOC and we're going to talk about what's going on in the western states. Welcome gentlemen.

Scott Johnson: Hey, thanks Heidi. Good morning.

Fernando Silvia: Morning.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Morning. So happy to have you all. Let's start out with some introductions so they kind of know who you are and a little bit about you. So Scott, let's go ahead and start with you.

Scott Johnson: Thank you. I'm Scott Johnson. I live in Portland, Oregon. I was introduced to the roofing community through APOC. I started in 2007 as a territory manager. I have evolved from Territory Manager to Director of Sales for the whole Pacific Northwest.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Nice. We're a little partial to the Pacific Northwest at the coffee shop.

Scott Johnson: Yeah, isn't it beautiful?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, we like it. Though we like the Westwood States. We like everything, so don't worry. We're good. Okay. Anthony, speaking of a nice place to live, please introduce yourself.

Anthony Martin: It can be. I'm Anthony Martin. I am the APOC Territory Manager for Southern Arizona and Phoenix, Arizona currently. I've been with Gardner APOC, ICP going on four years now. I started out on the retail big box team managing our accounts with the Lowe's and the Home Depots, and two years ago I moved over to the commercial side. And it's been a great adjustment. The saying is, "Once you get into roofing, you can't get out."

Heidi J. Ellsworth: You cannot get out.

Anthony Martin: It is a very true system.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: It is so true.

Anthony Martin: Yes, yes.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Why would you want to leave? It's a great place.

Anthony Martin: There's no reason to. There's not a lot of industries. I've unfortunately and fortunately worked in a few different industries and this by far is the most fun with some of the best people that you can possibly ask for.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, exactly. That's exactly how I feel about it too. Fernando, please introduce yourself.

Fernando Silvia: I'm Fernando Silva. I've been with APOC for about two and a half years now, but been in the roofing industry for, I want to say what, 18-20 years now.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Oh my gosh. Excellent.

Fernando Silvia: So I'm a son of a roofer. My dad got me into roofing a while back. I take care of northern California, so basically anything up north, and we're making good things out there.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I love Northern California. Sorry, but I really kind of think San Francisco should go up to the Pacific Northwest. Don't you think we should add them in?

Scott Johnson: I wouldn't have a problem with that.

Fernando Silvia: That would be a good idea.

Scott Johnson: We need to stop in San Jose maybe.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, maybe. There we go.

Fernando Silvia: Yeah. That sounds good.

Anthony Martin: We won't tell the people in Redding that you brought in [inaudible 00:02:29]. I don't think they want that part of the Jefferson State.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: There's a little bit going on there, so we probably should stay away from that. Okay. So let's talk a little bit. We really want to talk about what's going on in the territories because I think everybody knows this, but regional managers, territory managers, the sales manufacturers, reps, everybody, heartbeat of our industry. You guys are out there. I did it. I was a regional manager. Loved it. It was so much fun, but no one really knows what's going on like all of you. So we wanted to start there with some of the trends that you're seeing in your different areas.

Scott, let's start with what's happening in the Pacific Northwest? What are you seeing with jobs, backlog, but also just what are some of the trends on coatings, different things that are happening?

Scott Johnson: Sure. Try to keep me on point because it's a lot of stuff to keep track of.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, it is. I will.

Scott Johnson: So in terms of trends and backlogs, there's a general sense of kind of a softening currently in the northwest. Instead of having four, five, six months backlogs, maybe it's two, three right now, and that's taking into account steep slope and commercial stuff. The APOC roof, cement, and coating business in the northwest is pretty seasonal, as you know coming from the northwest, we get a lot of rain.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: A lot of rain.

Scott Johnson: So far nobody's come up with a good system that you can put on in the rain.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, but if anybody's going to, it'll probably be you guys.

Scott Johnson: Thank you. We hope. Hopefully Amir's online. He's Our VP of Tech. what else?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Oh, and then just what are you seeing from the contractors? Since the material shortage and everything, we've seen a huge increase in growth in coating. So are you seeing a lot more of that happening?

Scott Johnson: We are seeing, I guess, measurably more, but not like a life changing amount more. Single-ply is still very popular in the northwest. Coatings are... I think if things continue to soften, we'll see further growth. They're a pretty good go-to in terms of a budget, bandaid, or life extension system to use until you can afford the next reroof.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. I'm kind of hearing some of the same things, but we're also going into winter. So here we go. We had our first snow on the mountains. So what are you seeing down south?

Anthony Martin: Arizona is really split into two separate markets, Tucson, which is where I mainly cover in Southern Arizona and Phoenix really couldn't be any further apart. In Phoenix, we see a lot of newer technology. A lot of the safety protocols and systems that are being pushed a lot in California are being pushed in Phoenix. We're seeing a decrease in the amount of hot mop that's being used due to the safety concerns and the insurance concerns for those contractors. And they're switching more to self-adhered systems or foam systems.

Tucson is the complete opposite, where they're very adamant about not changing the things that they do. We have many crews that are still using hot mops. We have many crews that are still doing things that they've been doing for 30 years, and no matter what we do, they won't change. And that's great because they continue to use our products because our products have been working for them for that period of time.

I would say that our backlog in specifically southern Arizona is pretty deep based off of labor. It did seem that after Covid, there was a real resistance to people coming back into the workforce. With the increases of wages across the nation, I think that if you're a young man or a young woman who's looking to do something, are you going to go climb on a roof for $15 or are you going to go work in an air conditioning space for $15 an hour? When we have all these Amazon fulfillment centers that are popping up over the place, they're taking that labor away from us. I think that our biggest backlog is due to a shortage of labor and people who are really willing to work. It's not the seventies anymore where you could get crews up on top of your roof 14 hours a day.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Well, and you are kind of going into your season right now, right?

Anthony Martin: Yes. Yeah. Specifically with our materials, coatings in general, everything is temperature based when you can apply those materials. So in the summertime we can see highs of 120, right? So I don't want you applying coating when it's 120 degrees out. I do, because you're going to have to buy it again to replace it. But that's not what our goal is. Our goal is to train you to make sure the material is applied correctly, and I want to make sure that the contractors that are representing APOC are doing the job correctly. So yeah, we are about to hit our peak market. We're a little bit slow. We were really hoping that September was going to kick up, but monsoon season in Tucson is sporadic. We had a late start. We weren't sure we were going to see any at all in July, but I guess middle of July we started seeing them and we're continuing to experience some rainstorms. It rained on Tuesday.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: You got hit by a hurricane.

Anthony Martin: Slightly.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: The remnants.

Anthony Martin: Yeah, the remnants of it. Yeah. We got a significant rainstorm. My wife was actually driving back from Anaheim and luckily they made it through Palm Springs before it got flooded, but we had a pretty significant rainstorm with no wind. It was like, "Oh yeah, this is definitely hurricane related." This isn't a typical monsoon.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: When does that happen? I know. Fernando, what are you seeing in northern California?

Fernando Silvia: So Northern California can be tricky sometimes, right? I know that when we were having those backlogs and things like that with product not being available, especially on the single-ply market, when it kind of declined where it wasn't available. Then this is when everyone's like, "Oh, well let's go ahead and start using some of these systems. Now they're reaching over to us. It's like, "Hey, I have single-ply. What can I put on top of it? What can I use that is not going to defect or basically be able to go ahead and work with this product?" So some guys know what they're doing, some guys do not. Well, the good thing is that they have a good team that they can reach out to and we can go and answer some of those questions.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Get them trained up.

Fernando Silvia: As we can. And yes, we did see a lot of increase on our silicone systems just because the single-ply market was not available. But again, it's like a trend. It just kind of goes by and all of a sudden it's like, "Okay, well I got all this silicone now, what do we do now?" Some other stuff come available and things like that. A lot of things change drastically and it depends on the roofer that we're dealing with.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Are things staying pretty busy?

Fernando Silvia: They are. They are. But again, it all depends on, like he said, it depends on what area you're working with. Because I take care of a lot of the San Francisco market, which they still use a lot of the aluminum coating type of deals and some people want to use some of the products that we used to carry that now, with the new VOC compliance, have eliminated some of those things and it's like, "Okay, what can I use?" So now I got to reach out to them and tell them. It's like, "Hey, what can I use in place of this?" And obviously now we're bringing some of the 208 back in this market because they have good VOC compliance guidelines.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, there's so much. I mean in what starts in California, we know moves.

Scott Johnson: It does.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Across the country up north, everywhere else. And it's so interesting, you all have different things that you're dealing with in your different markets and I think people forget about that. We kind of think an overall industry, but every market is so specific and interesting. So one of the things that we've wanted to talk about too was that there's a lot of contractors out there, maybe residential contractors, who are looking at getting into commercial. They're like, "We've had a nice residential business. We want to get into commercial now." How much of that are you seeing, and what is the process that you're seeing with contractors moving or adding on commercial to the residential program?

Scott Johnson: So kind of what I've seen, whether it's a fresh startup, somebody leaving an existing business or starting their own or smaller companies is they'll usually start with what they're comfortable with, which is the steep slope shingle stuff. Then if they can find the right labor or staff, they might move into single-ply next because pretty easy to learn how to install. The overhead to buy the tools to install single-ply, it's not substantial. It's not like getting into hot roofing. Hot roofing is still popular in Northwest to some degree in certain segments. So once they have some single-ply installation or installers and they have that team, it's typically then when they'll start at looking at adding perhaps a service person or a service department. And that service piece is really where APOC starts to fit in.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Okay. Makes sense.

Scott Johnson: Our specialty is in repairing, restoring and maintaining existing roofing. We're getting into new roofing and we can talk about that a little bit, but that's kind of the trend I see is start with steep, then single-ply typically, and then a repair service department that may do systems after that.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Are you seeing the same thing?

Anthony Martin: No, no.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: [inaudible 00:11:17]. Yeah, yeah.

Anthony Martin: It is very segmented. It's very segmented in Arizona. Most companies in Phoenix will do both. They have a residential team and a commercial team. In Tucson specifically, it's 96% residential. Some of the bigger national guys are the ones who are taking all the commercial jobs. We do have a few younger guys who are, like Scott said, breaking off of one company and moving into their own company and trying to get into those things. But some of the complexities that come into commercial roofing, insurances, bonding, all of those things that take time to develop as a business owner can kind of hold them back a little bit. So some of the bigger projects are obviously going to go to the larger national players.

Again, it goes back to the labor force is that you have to have the right people. Specifically on a commercial size job that has a lot of concerns into it, you have to make sure you have the right crew and that's an investment. Companies aren't always, I guess I won't say willing to keep those people on board, but it's harder and harder to find them. So it's more of an investment in Arizona for them to develop the commercial side.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: We are seeing this huge growth of sub crews and we keep hearing that we have some folks coming up that really are not even having their own employees. Right?

Anthony Martin: Yeah.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: We're seeing that a lot. That's a big change in the industry, but it's a change that's definitely here and has happened.

Anthony Martin: Yeah, that is definitely taking hold in Phoenix. There's roofing companies and then subcontractors and you'll see the same guys working for the same companies throughout the town. Depending on the day of the week, you could see group A working for contractor A on Monday and then they're wearing a different shirt on Wednesday in a different yard picking up different materials. So yeah, it's definitely a change in the game here.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: It is. It really has. What do you see? Same thing?

Fernando Silvia: Same thing like they got going on. You have some companies that are doing majority of the work, whatever they want to go ahead and focus on, and then they'll go ahead and sub hire someone else that specializes in the coding side or all of a sudden, because they have the right equipment, they're trying to get into it, but they still want to go ahead. So they'll start wearing their own shirts and things like that to represent that company with the same quality of benefits that they want to go ahead and present on themselves. But it's difficult. I mean a lot of times some of these smaller guys, they just want to get into one thing and another, and all of a sudden it's like, okay, well coatings is going in trend and all of a sudden it's like, "Okay, I want to learn anything about coating." And oh, roofing is going good, "Now I want to learn about this." So you got the guys that are just kind of jumping ship and things like that too as well.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Well, let's kind of take what you're talking about there on training because I think that's one of the things that we're seeing with APOC with training centers and with everything that you're doing in the field that is really going to make a difference. So let's start over here. How important is that training? And talk a little bit about your program and what you're doing to help the contractors.

Fernando Silvia: Well, I mean a lot of times we get those questions like, "Hey, what do I do here? What do I do there?" Right?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah.

Fernando Silvia: A lot of the times we can go ahead and start out on the field with the specific contractor and we'll show them, "You're not supposed to mix this with that," and things like that. We'll start it small. Now, if they want to go ahead and continue growing with us as a partner, then we have programs that we can go and do. We have that facility in Arizona that basically has a training center. Those are things that we can start doing moving forward. But again, it's always that coaching moment out on the field with the roofer, making sure that they're doing the right thing at that point. Then once they want to grow from that, then we can increase them and try to do something better with them.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: What are you seeing down in Arizona? What's the demand?

Anthony Martin: Everybody wants it. You have to be very careful in the roofing industry with the verbiage that you use. A lot of the older guys don't want be trained. They want be introduced to new methods.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: [inaudible 00:15:36]. That makes sense.

Anthony Martin: They want to be supported more than trained. "You're not going to train me. What do you know, kid?" So it's very delicate with the verbiage that you use. But our Phoenix training center has created multiple opportunities for us and our masterclass that we put on there that was developed by Johnny Walker, who is a phenomenal trainer, is a great class. And I think that everybody who is on a roof from any company should at least come to the first day and get that knowledge and get that information because no matter how long you've been doing something, there's something new you can learn, a better method or a safer method of something that you've been doing for so long. I do most of the trainings in Phoenix, but I give all the credit to John. He's a phenomenal presenter, and what he's taught me of how to train people has gone a really long way. We're hoping that we can continue to develop that Masterworks class and get some real good momentum going for it.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Well, we have Johnny Walker and some of his trainings on CoatingsCoffeeShop, and he's been on this show before too.

Anthony Martin: Oh yeah.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, yeah.

Anthony Martin: Johnny Walker is the man. He is the man.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. We all know. That is so cool. What I understand is you're going to have another training center coming on board. We have Phoenix and then?

Scott Johnson: Tampa, Florida has a training center. Phoenix has a training center. They have brought the Long Beach manufacturing facility back online early this year. It's been a great help for the West Coast contractors and distribution network. They have plans to add a training capacity to facility at that location.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Excellent. That's going to be nice for you right there.

Fernando Silvia: Yes, it is. Yes, it is.

Scott Johnson: So that's going to be very, very helpful for us. Then beyond that, in the northwest, we typically handle trainings either at the distribution level or on a case by case basis, contractor event, contractor yard, contractor job site, whatever they need in order to get the knowledge they need to do the right job, the right time, the first time.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Right. The first time. And bringing some of these... I really liked how you said you can watch the progress of the companies and when they're going to need it. And it's really that service department. So let's talk about that a little bit with service departments. I don't know, that just kind of tweaked my interest. But the growth of service and maintenance has been... I mean, so many contractors now are offering that. What are you seeing around that?

Scott Johnson: I think it's going to be a continuing trend. I mean, many warranties require some periodic maintenance, regular inspections, regular cleanup, regular detail work. It's part of that maintenance team that's going to do that work. I think we'll see a further investment by contractors in their service departments.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Well, it creates long-term relationships.

Fernando Silvia: Yes, it does.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: With the building owners.

Anthony Martin: Yeah.

Scott Johnson: Also one of the things that we were talking about is as a group earlier, roof cements, roof coatings, roof maintenance in terms of wear and tear on a person's body is less than installing a hot roof system or it's less than on your hands and knees with a hot air welder. So if you have an aging workforce or if you have some people that are not as physically fit, roof repair, roof service, roof coatings are an avenue for continued revenue.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Well, and I think it also helps with the next generation. You were just talking about that, that not everybody wants to get up on a roof, but as they become more technicians with the coatings and the service and maintenance, it seems like that becomes a lot more attractive than hot mopping asphalt.

Fernando Silvia: Sure.

Anthony Martin: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, think that we're seeing that. I think everywhere is going to be a trend that it continues. I actually come from a contracted service background, which is where I spent most of my career. I think it's great to see that idea coming into roofing, and it's something that all these new contractors can use to separate themselves from everybody else. Not only are you on top of that roof with a service program of every six months, but you're really able to show what you're doing for that customer and what that homeowner does. You're going to win that job when it comes back to recode or restore again.

Fernando Silvia: Yes.

Anthony Martin: When you look at it into a grander view, how many HOAs do we deal with? So all you need is one person that has some say so in an HOA that says, "Hey, this contractor is phenomenal. Look at all the work that they do. They've been taking care of my roof for seven years. I'm never going to go back." Well, now you've just earned that whole block and then you've earned the next block and you've learned the next block. So I think as more and more people get into that and identify the positives and the benefits of that, it's going to be a tool that new contractors and existing contractors can use to separate themselves from their competition.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah. I just think both commercially and residentially, people have started thinking that way. I need to have it inspected. We have our chimney inspected every year. We know they're going to come out. That's long-term business with them. It's the same thing in roofing, but roofing's taken a little bit longer to get there, but it is definitely there now and people understand.

Anthony Martin: I think one of the things that may have held people back in the past is that when you're offering a service for five years, you're really putting your name on that roof. So you can't shortcut, right? You can't just get in and get out and she's never going to call me again or I'm going to change my number next week. So you're really putting your name. You're tying yourself to that roof. There's always going to be a fear for that because there's so many different things that can happen that can cause a leak. The last thing you want to do is be at the same house every single week trying to chase leaks. But I think it'll help push contractors to make sure that they're doing those final walkthroughs and they're doing those final steps to make sure that we're putting our name on this roof because we know that it's going to last and we're going to be here to maintain it, and you can count on us to do the right job.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: It needs it happen. It makes it happen.

Anthony Martin: Yep.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Well, I kind of want to talk a little bit too about big city. I mean, I know Phoenix is big. Portland is big, but really when you talk about switched into one area, San Francisco takes the cake. I'm thinking of all the high rises, all the small streets, the ups and downs and everything like that, that's a challenge for contractors. I'd love your opinion on coatings, how that fits.

Fernando Silvia: Well, the thing is on the coating side, the good thing about that is that you're just focused on that specific building. You got the neighboring people that are just right to the side, "I don't want you to step on my roof. I don't want you to touch this or whatever." So when we're doing all the coatings and things like that, it minimizes the interruption of the next buildings adjacent to them. Right? And it takes a lot of those issues away from them, right? Not every roof in San Francisco can be very easily accessible. You have to go through the valley, you got to go up a flight of stairs or sometimes the fire escape type of deal to get to a roof to do a small little roofing area or one of those, what they call them, the light wells, right?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Right. Right.

Fernando Silvia: The light wells are a big issue sometimes. But overall with the coatings, obviously, yes. There's some things that should be replaced when it doesn't qualify for our coating systems because we'll also say it's like, "Hey, okay, no more bandages on this. Okay? Just go ahead and completely get it done and get it central." But when our systems can be applied, I mean obviously we are pushing the APOC brand or whatever coatings going to be available for that specific system.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Johnny talks about that a lot. The roof, can you restore it? I mean, I know that's part of your trainings. And should it be or shouldn't it be? In fact, we have a great Lunch and Learn on that that we did here last year. Yeah. Okay. Last question for y'all. I'd love to hear your advice to contractors. You see all the good contractors. You see everything. So what's some of your advice to contractors going into 2024 and kind of looking at where we're going? So Fernando.

Fernando Silvia: All right. On the spot. Well, at least for us, one thing to know is that APOC is back in. In California, we kind of stepped away a little bit, but we're a hundred percent back in. We're investing in the company to make sure that we're there for our contractors. We're investing in the training programs that we're going to eventually have. We have the people in place that we're going to try to do. And I think we're going to start growing. I think if we get the right contractors that want to be partnered with us, we're going to answer our phones. We're going to help you with the questions. We're going to help you with some of the solutions, and I think we're going to have some product available. So that's going to be the key factor to our success. Right?

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Right now is one of the best times to get in touch with you, to get involved, to build that relationship because those relationships with the contractors, they have to be built.

Fernando Silvia: Yes.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: You want to build them with them. They need to build them with the manufacturers just as much to help their business grow.

Fernando Silvia: Yeah.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, very cool.

Anthony Martin: By APOC.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: By APOC. That's your advice. I like that.

Anthony Martin: I take a lot of pride in the label that I always wear, and I feel especially in the last few months with some of the changes that we've had, we were really becoming more of a team. From the conversations that we have, we have the best sales and service team in the marketplace in the West Coast, bar none. Scott is one of our leaders and he has years and years of experience. Jim Miranda, who recently came on board is another individual who has years and years experience. All of our local reps in California are 15, 20 year coating guys. We really have the best unified team there is in the west.

We have the resources, we have the training centers. I would say besides buying the APOC, get us involved. Don't be afraid. As a contractor, don't be afraid to call us because I'd rather help you to begin with than for you to call me after the fact and now I have bad news. Because before you put something down on the roof, we can stop it, right? Stop. Stop. No, that's not right. Once it's down, it's a little bit too late. So get us involved from the jump. We want to be involved. That's our job. Our job is to be on roofs. Our job is to be in front of your customers. Our job is to help you sell our systems and put our systems on. We're not going to take your business. We're not going to give it to somebody else. We want to help you and we want to, like you said, build that relationship and grow that relationship and be partners because that's what we want.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That's success.

Anthony Martin: We want a partnership. We want a partnership with our contractors. We want a partnership with our distribution. At the end of the day, we do take calls from end users. So we want a relationship with everybody and be in front of everybody all the time.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Well, and you have that great training center right there.

Anthony Martin: Yeah, it's phenomenal.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Get involved early, get trained.

Anthony Martin: I think one of the best tools that we have for that training center, and if California builds one, it's going to be the same thing, is that you have the ability to not only hold the masterclasses, but you have the ability to bring in individual contractors on specific days and specific times and work with a team one-on-one and introduce products and make sure that if someone's new on the crew, that they're doing something correct. I don't know how many times I've had a crew come in and we go over cements and we get into the granulation part of protecting that asphalt cement when we're doing a repair and people suddenly do the look like, "What is that? [inaudible 00:26:48] We're doing that?" It's just those little things that we can do.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yeah, it makes a big difference.

Anthony Martin: And then it opens your eyes, and we have the ability to do that. So we want to work with our contractors.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I love that. Okay.

Scott Johnson: I want to ditto what they said first.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yes.

Scott Johnson: That's awesome. To enhance it a little bit, make sure you partner with somebody that has your best interest at heart.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Yes. So important.

Scott Johnson: It's very important to make sure that you're forming a partnership. We approach things with a... We don't believe in one size fits all. So we work on systems design for specific installations. So we have stuff to take care of asphaltic roofs. We treat single roofs different than asphaltic roofs, and we treat metal roofs different than the two of those.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Excellent.

Scott Johnson: That would be my advice.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: That is great. Now I have a question. If contractors from the Pacific Northwest or up north want some training and want to get down to one of those masterclasses, they can get down into the Phoenix or-

Scott Johnson: Absolutely. The invitation is open to anyone. We have a link at the APOC website. You can register yourself.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Awesome. Well, it's rainy. They might as well head south.

Scott Johnson: As you know, Phoenix anytime from November to April is a pretty good idea for the Northwest.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: I'm thinking the same thing. Well, gentlemen, I want to thank you. This has been really... I love this stuff. I love to hear what's happening, and I also want to mention that APOC is the sponsor of CoatingsCoffeeShop. So I'm sure you've all been on CoatingsCoffeeShop. We've got our little signs back here. But CoatingsCoffeeShop is a place where you can get training. You can see the training from Johnny Walker, training from RCMA, Roof Coating Manufacturers Association. You can get this kind of training and then in-person get with these gentlemen and really take your business to the next level. So thank you so much and have a great show while you all are here.

Anthony Martin: Likewise.

Fernando Silvia: Thank you for your time.

Scott Johnson: Thank you very much.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: Booth 505?

Scott Johnson: Booth 505.

Heidi J. Ellsworth: So if you're watching this live at the Western Roofing Expo, go to 505. Check it out. Be sure to check out CoatingsCoffeeShop. There is such great information on there. And we are going to be back in just a little bit. We're going to have Karen here for the Heidi and Karen show. We'll launch this show off and then we're going to have all kinds of interviews all day long on the sound stage, including live coffee conversations sponsored by Everroof and General Coatings. We can't wait. We'll see-