Coffee Conversations LIVE from the Western Roofing Expo - Sponsored by EVERROOF - PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of an live interview with Tim Hart of Duro-Last Roofing, Will Lorenz with General Coatings and EVERROOF, Lee Lipniskis of Levello Construction, and Trent Cotney of WSRCA. You can read the interview below, watch the webinar, or listen to the podcast here.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Hello and welcome to live at the Western Roofing Expo. We are here live with Coffee Conversations. I am so excited. We are here with our sponsors EVERROOF and General Coatings. Will Lorenz, thank you so much.

Will Lorenz:
Thank you.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And it makes it possible to bring Coffee Conversations and this important discussion live to everybody out there. So thank you. We're going to introduce our panel and we're going to get down to some great questions about the Western States and everything that's happening overall. My name is Heidi Ellsworth, Roofers Coffee Shop, and we're going to get started. So I'm going to start over here. Tim Hart, welcome to the show.

Tim Hart:
Thank you very much.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Thank you.

Tim Hart:
I'm Tim Hart with Duro-Last Roofing, Vice President.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Vice President. Perfect. Do you know what, Tim? Just real quick, tell everybody how long have you been with Duro-Last?

Tim Hart:
I've been with Duro-Last 40 years now. This is my 40th year.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And you're also an Oregonian?

Tim Hart:
Yep.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yes, I know. So we always have to point that out just a little bit. So thank you for being here today.

Tim Hart:
Thank you.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Will?

Will Lorenz:
I'm Will Lorenz with General Coatings and EVERROOF. I've only been in the industry about 40 years, but only 10 years with General Coatings. And we're a manufacturer of spray foam and roof coatings, and just glad to be here.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Excellent, thank you. And Lee, I'm so excited to have you on the show. I just have to say it, so-

Lee Lipniskis:
Thank you.

Heidi Ellsworth:
... please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about you.

Lee Lipniskis:
Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm Lee Lipniskis, I own Levello Construction. I've been in the industry for about 15 years and then decided to start my own company earlier this year.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah, we're so super excited about that.

Lee Lipniskis:
Me too. Thank you.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah, so excited. And for the few people out there who don't know who you are, Trent Cotney, could you introduce yourself?

Trent Cotney:
Sure. My name's Trent Cotney. I service as general counsel for Western States, and I'm also a partner at Adams and Reese.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. So, okay, first of all, I want to start out with just how the show is going because I have to tell you, we're watching it here and it is so crowded, there are so many people both yesterday and now today. So Tim, what are you seeing at the Duro-Last booth?

Tim Hart:
Our booth has been packed. We brought in probably a good eight to 10 people to work it, and everybody has been busy. So this is one of the busiest shows that we've attended. It's been exciting and it's been fun.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. And you and I are on the advisory council. It's going to be kind of fun going to that next board meeting and talking about that, isn't it?

Tim Hart:
Absolutely, it will be.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah, they really knocked it out of the ballpark. Will, what are you seeing at EVERROOF and General Coatings?

Will Lorenz:
We're seeing lots of people we're seeing happy roofers that have been successful the last two years thanks to efforts Trent and NRCA and things, keeping things going at Western States. And lots of people coming and good prognosis for the industry going forward.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah, and we're going to talk about this a little bit, but I just have to say, I keep hearing about roof restorations. Yeah, it's been a topic.

Will Lorenz:
It is. And not every solution can be new and sometimes you have to extend what you've got, redo it, keep it going, and we think that's an excellent alternative. We've got to give opportunities for roofers to do whatever the work and whatever the budget is [inaudible 00:03:12].

Heidi Ellsworth:
Keep that work coming. So Lee, this is your first Western States as a business owner, a general contractor, and you were saying to me that it's a little bit different coming from that direction.

Lee Lipniskis:
It is. I feel like it's completely different. I haven't been to Western States in a couple of years, but it's the best show that I've been to in a long time. I think I heard something around over 3,000 people are here, which is amazing to see. And it is definitely looking at different things as a business owner than an employee of a company. And you're walking around the show floor more in a strategic manner for sure. It's been super fun.

Heidi Ellsworth:
It is. It's really good. And Trent, you've been busy. I mean you go to everything. While you're here, you have all the meetings, you have your booth, you're speaking, history of roofing. Tell us a little bit about your show experience so far.

Trent Cotney:
It's been great. Like everyone said, it's been packed and really surprised at the turnout, it's exceeded my expectations, great turnout at all the seminars and everybody's really upbeat. That's the key thing is it's a very positive environment, so having a lot of fun.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. And it's been really interesting because as you talk to everybody around the show floor, they are all seeing the same things, that there's just a lot of opportunity and they want to know all the new technologies, all the new solutions, what's going on, how to reduce labor. So what are just some of the key topics and trends that you're seeing right now, Tim? As people are coming to your booth and talking about, and what are some of those?

Tim Hart:
Well, a lot of the newer technology that contractors are talking about is some of the estimating software that is out there. I noticed that in the show that this year that there's a lot more software than there's been before. We have an emerging leaders group, and so those young contractors come out and talk about all of the electronic apps and everything that is available that is so much different than what we've seen in the industry before. Yeah, it's exciting to talk to people bringing fresh new ideas to the market.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Everything. We just had a podcast with Duro-Last and Estimating Edge talking about how Duro-Last is using this new technology, you're working with your contractors through the estimating programs. That's pretty exciting.

Tim Hart:
Yep, it is exciting.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah, that is really cool. Will, what are some of the things like hot trends that you're seeing here in Western States, overall?

Will Lorenz:
Training.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Training, yes.

Will Lorenz:
Everybody wants to get their workforce up another notch. They want them to do better work, be more efficient, and they want folks to be happier, to have a better career because they've trained. And so being a part of the RCMA, the Roof Coating Manufactures Association, our training program is another key step to provide roofers an opportunity to get their workforce up another notch. And we're just glad to be a part of that. I think that's really important. Yeah, so we're just glad to promote that here.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah, we just talked about that just a little bit ago. We got a little promotion going on over here for free training module, which, hey, you should put your card in.

Lee Lipniskis:
Oh my gosh, absolutely.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yes. It's really [inaudible 00:06:28] so you need the roof coating's training. Oh, I'm not saying you need it, but yes, you probably do.

Lee Lipniskis:
Everybody needs training.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yes, that's cool.

Lee Lipniskis:
Everybody needs training.

Heidi Ellsworth:
So walking around the show floor, what's hot? What is on front of your mind as a contractor out of Denver, Colorado?

Lee Lipniskis:
Yeah, so for me as a contractor, my thought process is how can I be more efficient in what I'm doing? And within those efficiencies are both of what you said is the training, the product knowledge. And technology is huge right now for us and helping us be more efficient in the field. So that's my thought process is how can I streamline my workflow and be able to have better output with technology and training?

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah, that's really good. Trent, what are you seeing here that people should be aware of or be thinking of?

Trent Cotney:
It's interesting, when I'm talking to contractors, I think they're looking to just be better all the way around. Whether it's operations, risk mitigation, whatever it is, I think people are concerned about some of the things that they're seeing and they want to make sure that they're doing things the right way. So a lot of what, I think, the contractors are here for, not just to learn in the seminars and everything else, but it's to make contacts because it's a lot of those contacts that can help you later in your career.

Trent Cotney:
And I would be remiss if I didn't say I'm incredibly proud and honored to sit next to Lee, just fantastic what she's doing. I couldn't be prouder, so just fantastic.

Heidi Ellsworth:
There's a lot of proudness here going.

Lee Lipniskis:
He's also big on my journey and how I got here, so.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I love women-owned business. Yeah. So Trent, we want to say thank you very much for sitting in. There's a lot of board meetings and events going on, so one of our speakers, Wendy, Marvin, who I'm so excited is going to step in here for just now is going to take your place, so...

Trent Cotney:
Fantastic. Thank you guys so much. [inaudible 00:08:20].

Heidi Ellsworth:
Safe travels, and good luck with the Florida storms.

Lee Lipniskis:
Yes, be safe.

Will Lorenz:
Stay dry.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Hello, Wendy.

Wendy Marvin:
Well, hello there.

Heidi Ellsworth:
So, everyone, this is Wendy Marvin and she is here. So we're going to start with you, we want to give you a little chance to catch your breath-

Wendy Marvin:
Thank you. Stop sweating.

Heidi Ellsworth:
So can you introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about you and your company.

Wendy Marvin:
Okay. I am Wendy Marvin. I am the owner of Matrix Roofing and Home Solutions. 16 years in business, primarily residential, some commercial. Love the industry.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Vancouver, Washington?

Wendy Marvin:
Vancouver, Washington, yeah. Not BC, I'm not a Canadian.

Heidi Ellsworth:
No, no, right by Oregon. So, okay, we've been talking about the show, how great a show it is. What have you seen out on the show floor that you're kind of like, "Wow, ooh, I need to get more information on this"?

Wendy Marvin:
I'm seeing a lot of technology that I'm super excited about because I don't know if you guys have already covered it because that's a hard thing, but I think that we're an industry of safe. We do what we've done for a long time kind of thing, and I'm seeing a lot of innovation and technology out there that was kind of, not necessarily from the computer standpoint, but from installation standpoints like new types of trash shoots, and new types of distribution kind of things. And yeah, it's exciting.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Robotics.

Wendy Marvin:
Yeah, yes.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Someday we're going to be coming to the show and robots are going to be going up and down the aisles, probably putting...

Lee Lipniskis:
As you said that, an elevator just went up and down.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Okay.

Wendy Marvin:
Exactly.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Let's move on to what's happening overall in the industry, Western States specific, but industry overall. So Tim, I'm going to start with you again. Material shortage. Holy cow. As manufacturers, you guys have been... So it's really nice, manufacturers, contractors, we're going to get both sides here.

Wendy Marvin:
Fun.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Where are we right now with material shortages?

Tim Hart:
Well, I can speak for our company. We also have a lot of vendor partners. So I know that some of our vendor partners have had some supply chain interruptions with chemicals and shipping and so forth, so that affects everybody. Us as a company, we're very vertically integrated, so we, for the most part make almost everything for our own roofing system so we weren't as heavily affected as some other companies were.

Tim Hart:
But from a supply chain standpoint, we're having to partner more with our vendor partners. We meet more frequently with them so that we open up the communication. We feel as though communication is the key to make certain that customer service and the customers get what they need and when they need it, but we just have to open up more communication.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right. And the contractors, this has really built relationships over the last two years. I mean built and sometimes destroyed some, but you guys have seen yours really build across the board.

Tim Hart:
Yes.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah, that's important. Will, what are you seeing on the coating side with material shortages and supply chain?

Will Lorenz:
We've seen, really, the supply balance catching up to demand. And so we see more normalization of the marketplace and we see that the trend is really that it's going to be in balance going forward, and I think that's good. Hopefully we don't have any other hurricanes or political upsets or another COVID that's going to cause disruptions. But it's amazing that the roofing industry has survived so much of these things that have tried to shut us down or prevent us from getting roofs. As Charles would say, "Get the roofs dry."

Will Lorenz:
And so we see that really, globally, supply is catching up and I think that will keep the roofing business more competitive, and I think that will encourage more work and be more sustainable for our industry.

Heidi Ellsworth:
We had McKay Daniels and Kyle Thomas on Coffee Conversations a couple of weeks ago, and they were talking about the same thing. And it's also, they've seen real shifts in... contractors had to figure out what to do and how to do it, who to rely on. So with that in mind, Lee, I know you just started your new business, but you're dealing with the same thing in ordering, what are you seeing?

Lee Lipniskis:
Absolutely. Yeah, so during the pandemic I found that a lot of contractors were helping each other out. If there were materials that one person didn't have and another contractor did, there was this barter system kind of going on, which was super cool, I don't know if we've ever seen that. I haven't been in the industry as long as you both have, but I found it very fascinating, and it was people coming together, who are normally competitors, trying to figure out a way to make it work for all of us.

Lee Lipniskis:
And right now what I'm seeing is the lead times on materials are not as long as they used to be, but things are not on the shelves. So I'm having to special order lumber. It may take seven to 10 days to get, which I think is a fine lead time, but I'm seeing that things may not be stocked in certain places like a Home Depot or Lowe's or something like that. And I also do exterior renovations, not just roofing, but windows are this still-

Wendy Marvin:
Windows are a killer.

Lee Lipniskis:
... outlier of-

Wendy Marvin:
Windows are a killer.

Lee Lipniskis:
That lead time for the windows is still pretty far. But other than that I'm seeing things catching up, just like you said, and they're looking a lot better as far as residential, for sure.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. Wendy, what are you seeing?

Wendy Marvin:
A lot of what Lee just said. I think materials are doing a lot better. I still think our color choices are kind of limited, but I think that that's just distribution talking about runs as we start to catch up. Wood is definitely... it's interesting to go to even the grocery stores that we're not doing 15 deep, we're doing five deep. So if there happens to be a demand for something, then two by four by sixes are out of stock kind of thing. And these are coming in fairly quickly.

Wendy Marvin:
I think for me, the main source for me with Tim and these guys is just talking about communication. And when I'm customer-facing I can set expectations of it being two weeks or two months, and as long as I know. And we've had a great partnership with our distribution group and helping us just stay ahead of what's going on, we're doing some really specialty things like shake installations and they're crazy to try to get ahold of and delivery is crazy. And we've had some really great conversations to being able to be ahead of it because you can't go to your customer after the fact, you really have to be able to be informed and it doesn't nick away at the trust then because when you surprise customers you lose trust.

Heidi Ellsworth:
It's not good.

Wendy Marvin:
And I feel like just, more than anything, what I'm seeing is what Lisa said, and it's not just between contractors but between distribution, manufacturing. We're just a really good family industry where we try to take care of each other. It's really [inaudible 00:15:27].

Heidi Ellsworth:
That's what I think too has come out of this across the board that I love that, that there's been more help and support of each other than not.

Wendy Marvin:
Yes. agreed. Agreed.

Tim Hart:
Heidi, what I'm seeing right now, and this is really in the last couple of weeks, is that lead times are starting to come down now. So there looks to be some more normalization that's starting to happen in our industry, which is going to help everybody out.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Absolutely. That's really good. And one of the things, and this is just kind of a side note, but I found it really interesting is that things that somebody, when we were just doing a home remodel and they said, "Well, you've got to go buy your appliances, it's going to take six to 12 months to think. And we had them in six weeks and I was like, we're not ready for them. And it, so it seems like there's also a lot of, you just don't know what that container that's coming in is going to have. And-

Wendy Marvin:
Flexibility and grace. Those are on my computer at home.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Those are wonderful words.

Wendy Marvin:
Flexibility and grace because like you said, they said it's going to be a long time and it came in early, but sometimes that's not good either.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah, I know. It just sits on your front porch for a while. So okay, and going back on that, let's talk, we just had unemployment numbers come out again, the lowest they've been for a long time. And we have skilled labor shortage, we are having skilled labor shortages. I would love to, I'm going to start over here just to mix it up, Wendy, what you're seeing with hiring people, the labor shortage and also we're going to kind of combine these on what are some of the unique things that are happening to get young people in that you're working on in your area?

Wendy Marvin:
Okay. Oh yeah, labor shortages. It still exists very much. So I usually run 18 to 20 roofers and I have 10. And a lot of my immigration guys didn't make it across on their work visas still. We're hoping for next year, but that kind of started 2020, so that's painful when there are people that you've known for a lot of years. And I'm hearing mixed things about that, the H-2B visa numbers are going up, but I just think administratively it's hard to get all that stuff together.

Wendy Marvin:
We're just looking for opportunities to be different. So doing a lot of work with the local trade schools and getting on the list of people for the construction certification groups, and we're looking at ways to partner with like [inaudible 00:17:49]. Southwest Washington, I'm not sure if that's national, but I've talked a little bit about that before about how they're actually supplying grants for us to retrain out of other industries. And so it's not like the restaurant industry will partner much with us about taking their people, but when people are... we just have stuff out there in the community that says, "Hey, if you're in the restaurant industry and you're not working or the landscaping industry and you're not working..." The guys that work outside are obviously easier to bring over because they're used to it.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And they get involved.

Wendy Marvin:
But yeah, we're just looking for more for personality and then we'll train what they need to do. And then also definitely the younger generation and young women, we're not leaving that off the table as [inaudible 00:18:33].

Heidi Ellsworth:
We saw that this morning.

Wendy Marvin:
Yep, that was awesome. So yeah, just alternative ways.

Heidi Ellsworth:
So Lee, I loved visiting with you this week and hearing how you're doing things and in Colorado it is a very strong subcontractor market. You've had kind of an opposite experience and it's all built on because of such great relationships that you have built.

Lee Lipniskis:
Yeah, yeah, I have. I, personally, in my company, don't really have a labor shortage because I'm a one-woman show, and the relationships that I've built from being in the industry for so long, these subcontractors have contacted me wanting to work with me. And so it's super exciting that these crew members who I've known for 10-plus years are coming back in my life and it's just amazing. And we've built this great relationship over the years that has sustained all of the pandemic.

Lee Lipniskis:
Colorado is a funky market right now, definitely rely more on retail than storm. And so I think that for me, personally, the only maybe labor shortage that I have is with siding crews are a little bit difficult, but other than that I'm actually having a great time, to be honest. I hate to say that out loud.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I love it.

Lee Lipniskis:
No, it's very true. I do not have a labor shortage.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Well, and I wanted to ask you that because we've had other folks on the show before on Coffee Conversations who've kind of said the same thing and it's around, it depends on where you're at, what your model is, but the importance of culture, and culture and relationships makes such a huge difference. So on the manufacturing side, when we were having all these material shortages, a lot of people were saying, "We're not having a problem getting the chemicals we need or the raw materials," I should say, "we are having a problem because we don't have enough people to work in the plant to keep the plant going along in that..." What are you seeing on that down in your area?

Will Lorenz:
Well, when you have circumstances where you have challenges in supply, you start looking at how to get more efficient. And you look at automation, you also look at people's jobs and seeing maybe we have overlaps that we can balance things out better. Typically, in the coding side of the business or in the spray foam side of the business, it's a liquid transfer, so we get things in bulk, we manufacture products. So it's low labor in its requirement.

Will Lorenz:
So typically we've just done some things on the automation side and then our products, roof coatings and spray foam are generally very efficient, they're three-man crews, things like that at most installations. And so not as much of a requirement for as many folks on a roof, so it's quite efficient. And everybody has struggles, but I think our industry was more successful in it

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah, it sounds like your contractors because they have less labor. But now that, I'm just going to touch on it again, going back to the training, that's why it's so important.

Will Lorenz:
It is. And just having low... everybody having a job doesn't mean they all want to be in the roofing business. So we have to encourage them, we have to educate them, we have to entice them, we have to show them that there's a career path. And that's the challenge for us in the whole industry is how to keep saying, "This is a wonderful trade and it's a career for you," and getting people to consider that. And that's the challenge for all of us.

Wendy Marvin:
Heidi, that's a big one too, just talking about a career path because in my industry, on my side of it, we have roofers and roofers think they're just roofers. But it is an incredibly hard job on your body.

Lee Lipniskis:
Absolutely.

Wendy Marvin:
And so trying to give people an idea of what the next step would be after they can't roof anymore or if they're injured and we allow them to become foreman and then they can move into estimating, they can do other things or we can connect them with one of you guys on the other side and say, "You can go there." So just so they know that there's more than just a roofing path, it's a big deal.

Heidi Ellsworth:
That path. And there's been a lot of work, the associations are working on that, all of them. The board of Western States, NRCA. You have one of the largest contractor networks, Duro-Last across the country, what are you hearing from your contractors and also in your plants?

Tim Hart:
I'm seeing a lot of creative thinking and ingenuity because you're having to think outside the box, "Now, where do I get my employees?" What I see both contractors and manufacturers doing as well is they've really ramped up the appreciation for the employees they have. So they are doing many more things for them, luncheons and different monthly giveaways and so forth. Little extra vacations. So there's more appreciation for the employees that they have. I'm also seeing that they're using that technology thing again to look at, "All right, so how do we get done more work with less people?" And so they're looking at systems, assemblies, equipment, machinery, and how do they get more productivity out of the employees that they have and get more done and still satisfy their customers.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And ideally someday making it even easier to do with all the technology that we see coming down from RT3 and the different areas.

Lee Lipniskis:
I feel like... Can I interject for just a second?

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yes, please. I love it.

Lee Lipniskis:
I feel like the pandemic really brought to light, I think Wendy touched on it earlier, how the roofing industry had a lack of technology. And having the pandemic has pushed us into this new technology era of, "What can we do?" And you said in Washington you were not essential. In Colorado, we were essential, thank God. And it just brought to light that technology and how can we embrace it to raise up the industry as a whole in our country, and I think it's phenomenal. We needed it.

Wendy Marvin:
Do more with less.

Lee Lipniskis:
Absolutely. Do more with less.

Wendy Marvin:
Do more with less. And we've talked about it in our T3 a lot too, I think there's a fear out there at times of technology kind of taking over the humanity. And it's real, I'm not going to say that it's not valid, but I think what we're seeing is that we're embracing technology, but we're finding other places for the people too, so I don't think it's ever going to be that there aren't people involved.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Well, we keep hearing... McKay Daniels spoke this at the Legislative Luncheon, and he was just very clear on we aren't even close to the bottom of the problem with labor and it's only going to get worse over the next couple of years. And so what has always happened in our American and overall in the world is that when there's a problem, ingenuity comes in and they create technologies to supplement that. So I think we're going to see those robots going up and down the aisles.

Will Lorenz:
Yeah, I think if you look at other industries, go back to someone like Henry Ford, they had production lines, they had efficiencies. And now if you go into an Amazon facility or you go into... there's not a lot of workers in those places. So they can pay them more, they're higher trained, they have more skills. And the roofing industry, frankly, needs to keep improving. Other sectors have probably done a better job of automating and finding a way of getting that task done in a simpler manner with less labor. And we need to keep doing that to be more efficient.

Will Lorenz:
And then it gets them to reinvest more into buildings. When the price of a building gets more expensive because it's a high labor component, they're going to do less of those things. If it's more efficient, they'll do more of those, and that's prosperous for all of us.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I'm thinking an [inaudible 00:26:30] on the roof with coatings, it could just go right across like...

Lee Lipniskis:
I just love that.

Will Lorenz:
I think there'll be lots of automation in the future, your Tesla will drive you there.

Wendy Marvin:
We had circle bar cocktails the other night talking about how to keep the tear off robot on a pitch. How pitch would it have to be pitched before it [inaudible 00:26:52]?

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right?

Lee Lipniskis:
How much wood could woodchuck chuck? It's that kind of thing?

Heidi Ellsworth:
And when I think about technology's on the roof, I want to just kind of keep on this because it's so good because I've seen what Duro-Last loss has done over the years and how much technology you've had. And you've continually lowered the number of crew required on the roof due to technologies and your pre-fabrication and all the things that you do.

Wendy Marvin:
That's an industry leader [inaudible 00:27:16].

Lee Lipniskis:
Absolutely.

Tim Hart:
Yeah. We're also making some automated equipment as well, so that... It's sort of out of the boxes that we hire college students and then we have a... let's say we got a piece of equipment we want to build, they use that as their thesis so they develop and design the equipment. And many of those people we have hired.

Wendy Marvin:
That's awesome.

Tim Hart:
So now we have our own machine design build people that...

Wendy Marvin:
That's awesome.

Tim Hart:
And I love taking people through our plants because we've got touch tone technology and programmable software and things that run and operate our equipment that were made by our employees. It wasn't a machine we went and bought. It was made by that design build team.

Wendy Marvin:
And that amazing pride that comes from being that part of your company that [inaudible 00:28:14].

Heidi Ellsworth:
You know there's a plant in Roseburg?

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. And I've been telling Tim that I was going to come down for it too. We're coming down to see it. So that is cool. Okay, I'm going to switch the topic just a little bit because I'm probably a little bit Pollyannish on this comment, but there's... Pollyannish. Does anybody know Pollyanna... Sorry. Okay. Old movie. Always optimistic, but I listen to the news every morning going in and I get totally depressed.

Wendy Marvin:
You should stop doing that.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Then I get on the phone and I talk to all of you and all the people in the industry and I get really excited and very optimistic. So I would like to hear, we realize there are economic problems, can't discount that. But overall what are we seeing in the roofing industry around demand and also the inflation rates while interest rates are going, I should say, inflation and then interest rates going up. I'm going to start with you Wendy, how's that affecting your customers and your business?

Wendy Marvin:
Everybody needs a roof and you just can't argue with that. And think our industry is not going to go. I opened my business in '07. There's the hole right in the depth of the pandemic. And I think that the thing it does though is it challenges you to be a better company and it challenges you to do some more work on understanding what your customers want and to be that person, and to morph your business into that. I think that some of the things that are no-brainers that you have to have right now is you're going to have to offer financing on the residential side, you're not going to get away from that. Is it going to be a higher interest rate? Yeah. But if people need a roof, they need a roof.

Wendy Marvin:
We are seeing an uptick in the insurance industry again, and we saw this a little bit in, I think, it was about '14 or '15, where the insurance for your homeowner's insurance has the ability to audit your house every year, and they kind of don't, but they're starting to now. And so we're getting calls from frantic senior citizens, typically, and maybe older females that have had their husband pass where they're a homeowner and they just haven't really cared for the home for a little while and they have 90 days to re-roof their house.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Wow.

Wendy Marvin:
And we're going to battle with them with the insurance people and just saying, "Look. Okay, first of all, 90 days is laughable, we have to be reasonable about this." But it's going to continue to be a need. I think that we just have to be better companies and customer service oriented for people to choose you. And then the other thing that we see is when times are flush and there's a lot of business, everybody and their brother becomes a company owner. And then there's a lot of people that don't run good companies and they go out of business and then they come and become workers and it's a cycle.

Wendy Marvin:
And it's really funny having been in business for 16 years, when you start to see those cycles come again and you think, "Yeah, we can panic and there's a lot to be scared about," but it's a good time to prepare and just be ready and take care of the people you have and know that our demand isn't going to go away. It might morph a little bit in terms of how it needs to happen. Maybe you need an automated way for people to sign contracts. Maybe you need to look at what each generational group needs because we've got a lot of, not millennials, but Gen Xs that are becoming homeowners. I go out and do bids sometimes I talk to the kids on the phone... Kids, oh my god, I talk the homeowners-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Those Gen Zs.

Wendy Marvin:
... on the phone, but they're young and they don't want to talk to me, they don't want to meet with me. We go out and do the estimate, we send it to them, they sign. They want to eSign, they come in, we do the roof. Sometimes we never even meet them, never even meet them.

Heidi Ellsworth:
But you're meeting the customer where they want to be met.

Wendy Marvin:
Exactly. And I think that's the key is just don't be stuck in your ways, listen to what they're telling you and make adjustments.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah, we just had, on our economic outlook, we had Misha Fisher talk about the homes, there's just a lot of equity rich people when it comes to their homes, a lot of equity there. Lee, you do the whole home, you're doing everything in there. So what are you seeing around that? Are people using their equity in their home? Are they needing financing?

Lee Lipniskis:
Yeah, I have... Great question. Yeah, I actually have. I think that with financing I think is definitely a big movement in our industry that's coming down the pipe for sure, just specifically in Colorado, we haven't had a good storm in three years. And so everything is switching from insurance to retail now. And the old saying in Colorado is, "Oh, we're just going to wait for the next storm." Well that may not happen because our weather's changing.

Wendy Marvin:
I'm thinking about my house.

Lee Lipniskis:
So financing is a lot bigger. But with that being said, everybody understands that interest rates are rising. Everybody understands that. I think in my company, specifically, I have a competitive advantage with a lower overhead where I can offer those competitive prices and still offer the financing as well. I haven't seen it from my perspective as a big issue, but what Wendy was talking about with the adapting to your clients, for sure, I'm all automated, which I think gives me the ability to do more as a single business owner.

Lee Lipniskis:
And so people do sign electronically and they meet with you less. And I'm an elder millennial. I'm a millennial, but I am an elder millennial, right on that cusp, but you know do have to meet them where they're at and sometimes you sign a contract in person and sometimes you don't.

Wendy Marvin:
Sometimes you email something.

Lee Lipniskis:
And I feel like we're moving, everybody likes Amazon, it's two-day shipping, and everyone loves that, it's all online, people are less personal, first of all, now than they used to be. And so I'm wondering where our industry is going to be going with possibly purchasing things online and not even meeting with anybody.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Everything, yeah.

Lee Lipniskis:
So, it's interesting.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I love it. I love it.

Lee Lipniskis:
[inaudible 00:34:20].

Heidi Ellsworth:
So we're live at Western States and sometimes we get a... Hello Charles Santos, we're live.

Charles Santos:
Oh, is there a television show going on here?

Wendy Marvin:
One of our favorite humans on the planet.

Charles Santos:
I promised Will I was going to crash the set.

Will Lorenz:
I knew he'd come, he'd never let me down.

Wendy Marvin:
You disruptor, you.

Heidi Ellsworth:
You're the best. Okay, right. We needed that right in the middle of the economic talk. Okay, so-

Will Lorenz:
So uplifting. I think we need Charles to be president of the United States.

Heidi Ellsworth:
That's it right there. So speaking of economy now. So what are you seeing on the commercial side of things and what are your feelings on 2023 in the economy?

Will Lorenz:
Well first of all there's always going to be some level of demand. It may come off from the peak levels that are there, but the hope is that the things that the government is doing will allow innovation and companies to be successful rather than try and reduce demand. And my big picture concern is that supply has been catching up and the whole actions by the government has been related to interest and inflation. And so if the marketplace finds its normal, then it isn't really as necessary to reduce demand and people can go on and we can continue to see the economy grow at a real good rate.

Will Lorenz:
And the government is one of those people that can flip a switch and we can have two years of more challenge. But from a roofing perspective it is important, weather is important, if it rains, people suddenly recognize they need to get it fixed. If you are a large company and you manage your assets, you're not going to let your asset come out of line, you're going to keep it and maintain it, so I think some of those premises are going to continue.

Will Lorenz:
But the real factor that I see is just will the economy continue to have legs despite the government trying to reduce it? And I think the American has continued to show that they don't really want it to go down. They want to see growth happening.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Well, if you count all the cranes in all the major cities that we're seeing right now on the commercial-

Wendy Marvin:
Oh my gosh, there's like three of them up there and they're just going crazy.

Lee Lipniskis:
The country is full of them.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I know.

Wendy Marvin:
To Will's point too, he's just talking about my industry and my world is resi, right? I'm residential and I deal with homeowners and they talk about the adaptability. When you're putting on the Dallas Cowboys Stadium, your adaptability is a little less. But what's what I love about our industry is from me to him and all the way in between is this incredible group of people from Western States to National Roofing Contractors Association, association memberships, that's something I didn't mention, but I think everybody across the board needs to be because those people are working tirelessly to keep the legislatures from shutting things down, to let them know what the impact is, to let them know about infrastructure, and we've got such a great industry that does that.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah, and it's going in the right direction. What are you seeing commercially across the country?

Tim Hart:
Well, you mentioned that we've got a large contractor network. I talk with a lot of contractors including here at this show. And I can say this that I don't talk to anybody that is gloom and doom right now. I really do not everybody has work. They've got a big backlog it's going to flow into next year. There's going to be some pent up demand. And so I see people still being optimistic and I think that we create our own future and that what eventually contractors might have to learn how to sell again because there's been a lot of work hours there, and there's quite a few opportunities. But I see an optimistic future. I really do.

Heidi Ellsworth:
That's good because that's what I see too. And I say we just don't listen to the news anymore.

Wendy Marvin:
Just keep rolling, Don't do that in the morning.

Will Lorenz:
And I think it also comes down to the company themselves. Yeah. There's always going to be a market for successful people to be successful. And so well-positioned companies that are doing well will prosper despite even difficult times. They just know how to do it better.

Wendy Marvin:
To be what's needed, I guess.

Will Lorenz:
I started my business during the pandemic. Instead of closing down, which I've heard a lot of people doing, I started it and I'm very optimistic about what that future looks like, I'm not afraid at all.

Heidi Ellsworth:
So you started during the great recession. You started doing the pandemic. We started 20 years ago. You guys are a little bit... How old is General Coatings and EVERROOF?

Will Lorenz:
Well I've been in some part of the construction trade since '87 so that's a little while.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah, exactly.

Wendy Marvin:
We had some pretty good interest rates back then.

Will Lorenz:
Yeah, we've been up and down. And that's the thing, the business cycle is always going to go up and down. You talked about 2008-2009, I mean that was a rough time related to interest rates, and again same sort of thing related to housing, the bubble. And we really don't have that. We just really have a sort of an economy due to a lot of factors that got overheated. So I'm like, "Well, don't take your foot off the gas, just get supply back up and everything will balance and we can keep rolling."

Heidi Ellsworth:
Supply and demand, it seems to take care of itself after a while

Will Lorenz:
It does. It does.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Eventually. Eventually. Eventually. You've already hit on it a little bit, Will, so I'm going to start with you and I know you've been incredibly involved with NRCA and Roofing Day but legislatively we had the Legislative Luncheon yesterday with Craig Brightup and with McKay Daniels, and there's a lot going on that way too. There's going to be a lot of opportunity with the Infrastructure Bill and money coming into the system overall for construction finally.

Will Lorenz:
Absolutely, and then Defense Production Act is out there. They want to invest back in into keeping the economy going and so there's a lot of money. And I think the important thing is roofers got to figure out as an industry how we get ahold of it because the solar industry is very interested in getting almost all of it. Some of the other industries are there and the [inaudible 00:40:41].

Will Lorenz:
And so when the goals of the Biden administration are climate change and addressing making efficient buildings, we've got to remind them that an efficient building with a good roof is a good solution. And when we put on more insulation or we build a building tighter or we make it so it's more reflective, all those things save energy and they balance then with something like power generation and solar to find a net zero operating theme, which is what everybody wants.

Wendy Marvin:
Again, balance.

Lee Lipniskis:
Balance, you're right.

Will Lorenz:
Right. So I think we always have things where they want to change industries with regard to we make products and they always have a lifespan and then they want us to make a better product, a greener product, a more efficient product. And that's what the responsibility of suppliers are to keep doing that. But at the end of the day, climate change is a big importance and we need to embrace it and show how roofing can really help solve those problems for what we do.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Because roofing is on the forefront more than ever of the environmental and helping with climate change. I know.

Will Lorenz:
Absolutely.

Heidi Ellsworth:
What are you seeing, Tim, legislatively across the board, some of the regulations, all of those,

Tim Hart:
We have already seen some positive effects of the legislation already, particularly in our... We do quite a bit of DoD work, Department of Defense work, and they've had some legislation that has put more money in the coffers of DoD and which has resulted in more roofs being awarded. So our contractors have been benefactors of some of those programs.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And there's obviously with what's going on with the Infrastructure Bill, that takes a long time to come through. We're seeing that. We're also starting to see some of the solar, I've heard a lot of people talking about solar, and we saw that yesterday with there too. And white roofs are great place for solar roofs.

Will Lorenz:
They are. We can't just take open land and put a solar array out there. We need to do things smart. And that marriage of a solar array on a roof is really a smart thing and it's all about sealing the penetrations and making it secure and having a good roof below it that's going to last the same length that people are promising out of the solar, and that's an efficient solution.

Wendy Marvin:
Yeah, no solar at the expense of water tight.

Will Lorenz:
Exactly.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right. Exactly.

Wendy Marvin:
No-brainer, but it's hard sometimes.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. Wendy, what are you seeing? I know you were at the summer meetings with NRCA, you're on the board of Western States, there's a lot going on and you have your own State of Washington that has its challenges.

Wendy Marvin:
Yeah, we are interesting. Yeah, again, I just feel so thankful that there's people... politics it's like you watching the news in the morning, for me, I get all wound up and it takes time, it takes patience, it takes... I really like, to your point talking about some of the things that we were mentioning about the legislation stuff, is we're doing some weird things behind the scenes working with colleges to get collegiate people to consider construction and to start to talk about it.

Wendy Marvin:
And then to Tim's point talking about those people are actually studying roofing and coming up with solutions. And we were at Texas A&M and he was talking about some of his students talking about creating different types of polymers and different things and I'm like, "I'm just thinking that we are so diverse in where we're touching right now and we're not just staying on the same path that legislatively we're getting a lot more attention." And I think that all of that plays together. I don't want to speak to legislature because it makes me ill honestly. But I love going to the meetings and I love feeling like we have this just incredible group behind our industry that's looking out for us on all fronts.

Heidi Ellsworth:
On all fronts.

Wendy Marvin:
On all fronts.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And Lee, I know you just started your business and you're doing things. So I'm going to say I would really hope that possibly you might be able to make Roofing Day in the spring and represent Colorado because we go every year to Roofing Day and I think it's a really important thing for the industry to just be involved but it takes time to find the right people and to get involved that direction.

Lee Lipniskis:
Absolutely, it does. I've heard so many great things about it and I know in Colorado, to kind of speak a little bit about the solar, Colorado is huge with solar right now because we have over 300 days of sun and so people are starting to use solar shingles instead of solar panels. And we had this green roof initiative a couple of years ago that was trying to get passed. And so it's really interesting how the legislation can change. I know-

Wendy Marvin:
Can make or break it. [inaudible 00:45:45]

Lee Lipniskis:
Denver's no so far behind Portland, but it's really interesting how that can definitely change how you're going to roof a structure and how to make it more efficient.

Wendy Marvin:
They talk about solar in Colorado and then they forget about snow, you've got to have the whole package.

Lee Lipniskis:
I know. I know.

Will Lorenz:
And you have just smart legislation. I mean we all want things that have a sustainable outcome and move away from things that are like one-time use. We want things that if it gets up on a roof it stays up on a roof, it stays for the duration that it's promised to and you have a satisfied customer.

Wendy Marvin:
And it makes sense what we're doing. [inaudible 00:46:23] that 10,000 foot legislation stuff comes down the pike and we go, "What?" And then we fight back and give examples of life.

Will Lorenz:
But I would also say that when we talk about government legislation, there's quite a bit of money that's potentially available for us with regard to training across a lot of things. And our industry has to unite to try and get that money because it could go to other industries or it could go to unions and not to non-union operations. If it's really necessary in the construction trade or in the roofing trade, we really need to get our fair share and that's what-

Wendy Marvin:
Which baby bird is squawking the most is the one that gets the [inaudible 00:47:01].

Heidi Ellsworth:
Well, with the Perkins Act and that's what we've done at Roofing Day, we've gone there and we've talked to them about, "We need more CTE. We need more apprenticeships. We need to put money towards the young people who don't want to go to college but who want to get this great career in the trades."

Wendy Marvin:
But they see our faces and that alone is such a huge thing. It's like Lee and I's face is very different than Tim and Will. It's like to have all-

Lee Lipniskis:
Are they? Are you sure?

Will Lorenz:
We'll send you all. We'll send you twice to Roofing Day.

Wendy Marvin:
But to put a face to a roofer is a big deal, and that's part of why we're there is [inaudible 00:47:38].

Heidi Ellsworth:
I agree.

Will Lorenz:
It's also a little bit of accountability. You're there for us, here's our interest and we appreciate if you give that consideration because it's really important to our success, which is important to your community that you're representing, and so we've got to remind them-

Wendy Marvin:
And by the way, if we don't we're going to be here again.

Lee Lipniskis:
Yeah, see you next year.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Will be here every year. And it's starting to happen on a state level too. I know Montana's having a roofing day. There's some of the other states, Arizona does. Seattle, Washington is working on it. And so yeah, it's good and it's what needs to happen. I do want to make sure that we cover it. Do you know what? I probably should have asked this question one back, so sorry I'm going to bring y'all back a little bit, but new construction.

Heidi Ellsworth:
So one of the things I've heard about new construction, mostly residential, that due to interest rates it is slowing, but that there's still this pent up demand for housing and that multi-family housing is on the rise with permits coming up. Yeah. What are you seeing that way around the new construction side of the world?

Tim Hart:
What I've been seeing on new construction, again we do mostly commercial but even from the residential standpoint, I'm seeing a surgeon, modular manufacturing and we have a company that when you talk technology, their entire plant is completely automated to the point where they're doing all the framing, they're doing all the electrical, cutting out windows and so forth, so.

Wendy Marvin:
That's not boxable, is it?

Tim Hart:
It is. And they're able to build complete apartments, all furnished, and put them on top of each other, so.

Wendy Marvin:
And that was our roofing technology visit.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Hart:
I'm seeing more of that kind of construction and their industry is doing good.

Wendy Marvin:
They're disruptors, changing the face of what it's going to look like to build a building.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah, they did want a prefab roof. There you go right there. What are you seeing, and not just... I know you do both residential, obviously, and commercial, but what are you seeing on the new construction front?

Will Lorenz:
So I think from our side with spray foam, when you put that on our roof, again we see that air tightness is very important and the efficiency of a building comes down to combination of insulation and air tightness. And the more we build smarter maybe also maybe build with less complexity. I think we're going to be able to become more efficient and maybe even automate.

Will Lorenz:
And it's going to be a fork in the road that'll come up in the next five to 20 years as to whether or not houses are going to be built on site or whether they're going to show up on site. And as contractors in that business, your labor component is doing most of those work on site, either new or retrofit, and you're going to have to be efficient to stay in that game or someone's going to try and build the Amazon box and have it show up.

Lee Lipniskis:
Are you thinking less customization of homes by chance and more kind of like you said-

Wendy Marvin:
That's kind of the boxable model-

Lee Lipniskis:
The boxable model is like-

Heidi Ellsworth:
It's customizable to a point.

Will Lorenz:
Yeah, if you just think about buying a car, there are standard colors you get. But if you want something outside the standard colors, you're going to have to pay a bit more for it. Ways of saying, "We can do that but it's going to have to give us a return and cost that way. So I think there's going to be a bit of that. People are going to say, "Hey, I just need some basic necessities and this is what's important to me and I'd rather be in a house than renting a house. So can you make it affordable so I can be in the house?" And they're really going to be asking to do that.

Heidi Ellsworth:
So really changing the way people think about new construction? A lot of them were new... Yeah, that's interesting.

Lee Lipniskis:
I didn't know if I was allowed to ask a question.

Heidi Ellsworth:
You can ask any question you want.

Lee Lipniskis:
I was curious.

Wendy Marvin:
Sorry, you have to leave now?

Heidi Ellsworth:
No. No, no, no.

Will Lorenz:
We're going to place you with [inaudible 00:51:46].

Heidi Ellsworth:
No, you always will. And I have to tell you, I would love to have other people ask questions because I ask a lot of questions.

Lee Lipniskis:
You're so good at it.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Okay. But you have a lot you're seeing, I know you're doing remodel and doing home spec. There is a lot of new construction still going on, right?

Lee Lipniskis:
There's a lot in Colorado for sure. I have a very, very good friend of mine, is a project manager for a new construction company and he is just so, so busy working 100-plus hours a week because they are just pumping out these homes still. And it's so surprising to me because of the shortages and costs... and I don't know how much new construction costs nowadays.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah, interest rates.

Lee Lipniskis:
But it's fascinating to me to see how much construction is actually going on in residential, especially in Denver metro area.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. Well, there's just not enough houses for everybody. That's a part of it.

Lee Lipniskis:
Everybody likes Denver.

Tim Hart:
I agree with Lee because all of us travel, there's sky cranes in every town and they're all over. So there's still a lot of new construction that appears to be going on.

Lee Lipniskis:
There is.

Will Lorenz:
I also think we need to work with government in a partnership to help them get speed of foot. It's one thing to have that building in a year, it's another thing to have it done in six months, and the permitting process and the things to get the land developed and get it built and then... it's really important, and I don't think there's the incentives to move fast on the government side as there is in the private sector. And a lot of moving forward is really held back, I think, by the government not really moving efficiently forward.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Moving fast with the permits and [inaudible 00:53:24].

Lee Lipniskis:
Oh my gosh, yeah. We see that with inspections. Inspections and how long it takes for us to get that final inspection for roofing can sometimes be quite a long time.

Wendy Marvin:
Before the new con, I want to make a point because I don't want to lose it but I remember we were talking yesterday about, and it was one of the bigger groups talking about having a roofer and an architect and a builder and everybody in one room and it's like it's a new thing for the roofer to think that they have a right to be in that conversation because I can't tell you how many times I've been in a new con home where we're going out for specs and I'm looking at this going, "Are you kidding me?

Wendy Marvin:
And for us going to Texas A&M and getting the construction science program to have a roofing component to it, I think that's all building momentum for what we're going to get at the end is going to be better and we're going to have a voice to go, "Are you kidding? You're not terminating that 1212 into a dead-end wall." That's such a basic thing but it's like it's architecture did not have roofing included in their curriculum, and it's basic, and I think that's a big deal. New con in our area, West Coast, we're usually the last of the nation to slow down. We're seeing a pretty significant slow down and not necessarily in builds but starts.

Heidi Ellsworth:
In starts, yeah.

Wendy Marvin:
Landowners and starts are starting to trickle and we're seeing some slowing there. We are fast-tracking, to your point about permits, our permitting area is fast tracking multi-family, big time.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Oh yeah, multi-family.

Wendy Marvin:
Multi-family, you can get permits through in 30 days, the rest of us are like six months.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And so we're seeing that's what some of the trends are showing in the charts, yeah.

Wendy Marvin:
But to Will's point about permitting and all that, I literally was talking with our city organizations because I'm on a downtown association board and I said, "Dude, what is going on with the building inspectors?" And their comment was, "We are in the fourth dip into the people we didn't hire because we're not getting applicants."

Heidi Ellsworth:
Wow. So they're having a labor shortage.

Lee Lipniskis:
Talk about labor shortage.

Wendy Marvin:
And so some of these people that are working for the city and the county, and maybe having not been the best employer, they're not applying there anymore, they're going elsewhere. And I think that that's the employment thing that's part due, is that they're going other places. And I mean, when you can make, what, 16 to $18 at McDonald's, they're not going to screw around with a county that treats people poorly or a city that treats people poorly, and even if they have great benefits anymore.

Heidi Ellsworth:
It is totally changing. Okay, we-

Will Lorenz:
But I would just say one thing to Tim's point is that innovation and technology is coming along where BIM and so forth is going to come along where people are going to be able to design it or walk in with their glasses as an inspector and say, "Yeah, this is right," both, either as a manufacturer or as an inspector. And that type of technology trend will help us so much because I think there's a fear or resistance that they have to get this person up to speed before they can send them out to train.

Wendy Marvin:
Well, we'd like them to know code.

Will Lorenz:
Exactly.

Wendy Marvin:
On the basic level, I don't want to have to explain what a divert flashing is to the building inspector, but...

Heidi Ellsworth:
Sometimes you scare them a little bit. I know. No, but it's true. And so, okay. Thank you all. Thank you so much. This has been awesome. We could just keep going. I am going to say one thing, and I don't even know if we have time, so I'm going to double check. Western States has done an amazing job, the association, the staff-

Wendy Marvin:
It's a great show.

Heidi Ellsworth:
... all the people have just done. It's been a great show. So Wendy, I'm going to let you give one quick pitch. Why should somebody be a member of Western States?

Wendy Marvin:
All what we're talking about. I mean, look at the four people sitting at this table. This is where I can call Will and I say, "Will, I was on the podcast with you and Heidi. I have this question." When things get tough and we start to have the weird stuff of a recession, which is going to come, you need somebody to call when that comes up in your business. Lee's new in business. When I was new in business, I had an insurance issue that almost closed me. Things are going to come up that you're not going to be able to solve by yourself.

Wendy Marvin:
And if you don't understand the family that we have here now... Association memberships are it, and Western States, to me is one of the most intimate families that you can... you can get safety, you can get legal, you can get business, you can... There's so much available, association memberships are just invaluable.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I love it. Okay. There you go. Tim's on the advisory board, I'm on the advisory board. You guys are all very active with Western States. We're doing so much. So thank you. Tim, thank you for being here.

Tim Hart:
Thank you.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Thank you. Thank you, Will.

Will Lorenz:
Thank you, all.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Lee, thank you.

Lee Lipniskis:
That was fun.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And thank you EVRROOF and General Coatings, thank you so much.

Will Lorenz:
We're glad to put this on and be a part of it.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yes, it's so great. This Coffee Conversations, I tell you great information. Please pass it on. It has been recorded and it will be available on demand on Roofers Coffee Shop, under the RLW navigation. It's on YouTube right now. And we will be back with our next Coffee Conversations in two weeks at Metal Con. We're doing it again. We just love being live and being on the road for the show.

Wendy Marvin:
Thank you for what you guys do, Heidi.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Thank you.

Wendy Marvin:
Honestly, too.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Oh, you guys, you make it happen. So thank you, we'll be back with some more interviews pretty soon. I'm pretty sure Karen Edwards is going to be taking my seat for a little while, so watch and you'll see some great new people coming on. See you soon.

Lee Lipniskis:
Thank you.

Wendy Marvin:
Bye.

Will Lorenz:
Bye.