Coffee Conversations LIVE From METALCON 2024 Sponsored by New Tech Machinery! - PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Terry McGuire of of New Tech Machinery, Adam Mazzella of Sheffield Metals and Bobby Mesmer of RMG Erectors & Constructors. You can read the interview below, listen to the podcast or watch the recording.

Intro: Hello, and welcome to Coffee Conversations at METALCON 2024. We are on the Metal Coffee shop soundstage sponsored by New Tech Machinery. My name is Heidi Ellsworth and we're here to talk about the metal construction industry with some amazing experts. So, let's get started with some introductions. Terry, can we start with you?

Terry McGuire: Yeah. My name is Terry McGuire. I'm the Vice president of New Tech Machinery.

Heidi Ellsworth: Adam?

Adam Mazzella: I'm Adam Mazzella. I'm the president at Sheffield Metals in New Tech Machinery.

Heidi Ellsworth: And Bobby?

Bobby Mesmer: And I am Bobby Mesmer. I'm the CEO of RMG Erectors & Constructors.

Heidi Ellsworth: Okay, so all of you out there right now are going, "Wow." And I am too. This is a powerhouse. We're going to talk about the industry. We're going to talk about what's happening out there. This is super exciting. So what we want to do is, let's just kind of start out, gentlemen, with the show. METALCON, we've seen it grow every year. There is nice traffic, a lot of people in here, a lot of booths. I would love to hear what's happening in your booth and what you think of the show so far. What's happening at New Tech?

Terry McGuire: Yeah, this year was really busy so far this morning. We've only been here for about four hours, but we brought a concept machine this year. And it has a lot of offerings that are feedback from our clients. And so, we're really excited to show it. And we've had a massive amount of traffic this morning, so very excited about how it's gone so far.

Heidi Ellsworth: A lot of people out there, and I'm so excited about that concept machine. I want to talk about that a little bit more.

Terry McGuire: We'll be glad to talk about it with you.

Heidi Ellsworth: I love it. Adam, what are you seeing in the Sheffield booth?

Adam Mazzella: Yeah, so trying to feature a lot of the new architecturally curb appeal things. So textured PVDF coatings, which is kind of a newer thing. Usually you're seeing that in SMPs. So excited to talk about our core line product line.

Heidi Ellsworth: I love it. We had on that earlier and we were talking about a lot of the cool stuff that's going on for both companies, so it's great. Bobby, you've been walking the show and tell me what are you seeing and what's of interest?

Bobby Mesmer: Yeah, I mean METALCON is a great show every year. I mean, the industry, the way they put it together, all the people come together for the metal, the pre-engineered work, all the manufacturers. So walking the show, I mean you're seeing all the same manufacturers, all the same suppliers that are out here. We're seeing familiar faces in the erection business and in the supply business, so it's good to connect with everybody. I'm really excited to see some of the new products that are coming out. Like Adam said, about some of the PVDF coating that they're doing, some of the new machinery that's coming out and to see what the industry and where it's really going. Because that's our future right there. And it starts with these guys before it comes out to somebody like me in the erection business because it starts with them and then we're the ones that have to learn it. So very, very excited to be a part of this.

Heidi Ellsworth: And it's kind of the other way around too. It's kind of the chicken and the egg, because you're saying, "This is what we need out in the field," and these folks are making it happen. So, this is the place where that strategy and creative happens.

Bobby Mesmer: Absolutely. Those conversations happen really well, because the experts who are producing the product, they come to us and they say, "Hey, what's your problem? What do you see? And what's going on with our particular product?" And so we get an opportunity to talk with them at a show like this open forum to be able to say, "Look, these are the issues, what do we do?" And then next year hopefully they have a solution for it.

Heidi Ellsworth: Then we have more stuff that comes out. Speaking of issues, challenges and I'm even more so trends. And I wanted to talk a little bit about 2024 and the metal construction industry overall. And what were some of the trends, what were some of the things and I'm going to start with you, Bobby. What were some of the things you saw this year that really stood out to you?

Bobby Mesmer: I think a big one was definitely the U factor and the insulation in the industry. At least in mine. I work heavily in the pre-engineered market, so I'm all in commercial. That was a big trend, a big change, a lot of different products that came out there. I see a lot of change in the engineering side of our buildings that are making the buildings a lot more capable to move into other sectors in the commercial area. So, we're providing buildings that you otherwise normally wouldn't have thought would be a pre-engineered building could now be a pre-engineered building. And then again, to the warranties and the coatings of the metal products themselves. What's going on with what Sherwin-Williams might be doing with their coatings to put on product is amazing. I mean these coatings now, I mean you're starting to see warranty increases, better performance, the spec changes. So that's what we're seeing.

And I got to tell you, it's hard to keep up with. From an erector standpoint, it's hard for us to keep up with the manufacturers to say, "Wow, okay, the warranty is not a 20-year finish warranty anymore, it's a 25 and because it's this high-performance coating." But how do you walk on it? How do you install it where you're not damaging it? So that's what we're seeing, and again, I'm super excited about that as it moves forward.

Heidi Ellsworth: Well, you're in the right place then to be asking a bunch of those questions and what's happening, exactly.

Bobby Mesmer: I know, we got these two guys here. I want to listen in. I want to be on the other side of the podcast here.

Heidi Ellsworth: I know. So okay Adam, I know you want to get Terry to go, but I need to talk to you first because that's the perfect-

Adam Mazzella: [inaudible 00:05:19].

Heidi Ellsworth: You're welcome. So what are you seeing? What did you see this year trends within the metal construction?

Adam Mazzella: It's been a pretty flat year all in all. I mean it's typical election year. I mean we forecast the year before and we go, "Hey, we're going to keep this trajectory and things just level off." Other trends kind of things happening. We're competing with interest rates and we're just waiting and waiting and waiting. So, a lot of hurry up and wait this year. We talked about that a little bit before. There's a lot of optimism. We feel like there's a lot of pent-up demand, both commercially and residentially. Other trends, we talked about some of the textured items. This is hot right now, low gloss is in, textured is in. So from an architectural curb appeal perspective, a lot of these things are in and we're only gaining steam with them, so it's exciting.

Heidi Ellsworth: One of the things I've been seeing a lot of that just from you guys, Sheffield and a lot of the market is the prints. The prints that are coming out, siding, it just feels like a much bigger year for the building envelope in metal. And maybe a little bit my roofing background I'll admit, but what I'm seeing this year of what's going on, talk a little bit about that.

Adam Mazzella: It's sort of what the expertise is growing. So the market is asking for stuff and the people that are learning and becoming capable of it are responding. So whether it be wood grains, camouflage prints, things like that. Homeowners consumers are asking for more of these things. People are becoming more capable of these things. It is not just roll coating technology. You're seeing actual what you would imagine is laser printers actually printing on steel and aluminum products moving forward.

Heidi Ellsworth: That's so cool.

Adam Mazzella: Yes. So this is something you probably couldn't imagine five years ago. And this stuff's becoming a reality. And it's something that we're now able to continue to offer to the market, both through Sheffield, people controlling their own manufacturing via New Tech as well, so it's an exciting trend. The sky's the limit with it. And I imagine a place where we'll get to where people are saying, "Hey, I want this color, I want pumpkin orange." And we can get there in a much more effective, efficient, less costly way than we did 10 years ago.

Heidi Ellsworth: When I first heard about the camouflage, and actually I saw at the show last year, the camouflage prints, I was like, "Okay, who's going to use that?" And then I'm like, "Oh yeah, hunters." But it's very cool. But this morning we were talking to a lady during the Metal & Mimosas, which how cool is that, that we get to have. [inaudible 00:08:03]

Adam Mazzella: Didn't get that invite.

Terry McGuire: Big mistake.

Heidi Ellsworth: Right there. See that's why you should be a woman in construction, just saying, we're a little bit ahead of the curve there. But what she talked about was actually having finishes that were almost a mirror finish. Because the people wanted to bring, they were in the forest and they wanted their sighting to reflect the trees and to kind of fit within it. For some I'd heard of that. So yeah, some really interesting things that are happening out there.

Adam Mazzella: And that technology oftentimes can be accommodated with even higher end or different types of paint systems that we just didn't see in a ... Hardly saw in the commercial space. But now that it's making its way into a residential space and architects can call it out and specify it, it's a whole new dynamic of metal that didn't exist five years ago.

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah, it is. I found it amazing. Speaking of which, of contractors taking into their own hands and New Tech has, from watching it seems like you guys have had an amazing year. And there's just contractors are coming to see the light.

Terry McGuire: Yeah, I mean, we certainly have had an amazing year at New Tech in 2024. And we expect the same in 2025. I think what I've seen in 2024 is how many new people are coming to look at this equipment and saying, "We want to manufacture our own. We've been buying it from someone who's chopping and dropping it to us, or we're buying it from an implant manufacture and we want to push them out and we want to do it ourselves." So even this morning, I've spoken to three or four people that were brand new to this, that are saying, "Hey, we want to manufacture ourselves and we want to understand this equipment." And from a portable role-forming standpoint, we feel like we are the gorilla in the room. And we plan on staying the gorilla in the room through customer innovation. We're going to stay on top of this, we're going to bring new machinery to the market and we're really excited for 2025.

Heidi Ellsworth: And it really kind of goes back to that whole automation and the labor shortage and kind of where we're at there. And I think really, and I'd love your thoughts on this, what we went through with the material shortage after COVID, it had some people going, "We're going to do something a little bit different so we can control our destiny just a little bit more." Not that that's a problem anymore, and manufacturers have totally stepped up, it's been awesome. But there is some of that mentality it feels like.

Terry McGuire: Yeah, I mean for sure, when you're manufacturing on site, you're not wasting anything. If you need or if you're ruining something that you've bought from somebody else, you're able just to replace it right there instead of calling them up and saying, "Hey, we snipped this wrong and can you send another piece?" And it takes two days or you're calling in favors. So certainly it's a lot more efficient and effective and cost-effective for sure to be manufacturing while you're standing there. And then the obvious benefits of being able to have it be seamless for as long as you'd like and you don't have any freight constraints. So again, we're really excited where we are and all these prints and these new things that are coming to market, that only drives business to us. Because more people or designers are saying, "Hey, we want to utilize this." Architects are saying, "We're calling it out." And therefore they need a machine to make it. So, the more innovation there is on that side and the more people like the product and think it's beautiful, the better it is for us.

Heidi Ellsworth: And kind of bring our crystal ball out. And looking at 2025, you really made me think because ... Okay, and of course I'm here at Metal Coffee Shop and I'm talking to all these different people and I hear all these different things, but what I hear consistently is the growth, the growth of metal and the demand for metal and that contractors want to, if they aren't using metal right now, they want to bring it in. So, it seems to and Adam, I want to start with you, is when you're looking into 2025 and as we're talking about, okay, are you real forming your own? Are you buying from manufacturers? It seems like there is plenty of business for all and that for different types of business models for contractors, it really is going to depend on what makes sense for them when it comes to labor, when it comes to design. What are some of the things you're seeing for 2025 along that line?

Adam Mazzella: Well, some trends are continuing. So Terry hit on, and you talked about the labor shortage. A lot of people are faced with, "Hey, go spend money so you don't get taxed on it." Well, traditionally go buy another truck. Well, to go buy another truck, I got to put three or four people in that crew on that. Well, that pokes at the labor shortage. So alternatively the contractors that are looking at being more efficient, so I can spend that same $100,000, call it that nice round number. I don't need to hire three or four people. I can make my existing crew more cross functional. I check that box as far as what my CPA is telling me to do. And I can go be more efficient and broaden my capabilities. And make more money doing a product that I used to make 20% on I can go make 30% on it now. So, there's a lot of opportunity there. In terms of trends 2025, I don't have a crystal ball. I try to dodge crystal ball questions the best way.

Terry McGuire: It's going to be awesome.

Heidi Ellsworth: I like it.

Adam Mazzella: I think the residential stuff is going to kick back up. There's just way too much pent-up demand. I think if we can continue to see these interest rates continue to tumble, hopefully. That's just going to keep popping. Again, we're still going to be poking at the labor shortages, but keeping demand healthy is ultimately the goal. You don't want to be over demand, but you also don't want to drive it to a recession.

Heidi Ellsworth: Exactly, exactly. No, I think that's really true. And I am hearing and seeing a lot of the same things when we're looking at the interest rates and what's that's going to do for new construction. What it's also going to do, I think again, the awesome meeting you gentlemen missed this morning, Stacy Lynn was talking about barndominiums. And what we're seeing with metal buildings in the residential side. I know you do huge residential. I know you do huge, huge commercial, mostly industrial. But what are you seeing from your customers on that trend, and what do you think we'll see in 2025?

Bobby Mesmer: Yeah, I think to echo what Adam was just saying, I think the architects, you're seeing a lot more architectural design that's coming into play. And a lot of the architects are coming over from the commercial side into the residential. Because they're trying to fill their marketplace too. That's what it starts with. And what they're doing is they're bringing in some of these products, the rain screen products and these commercial products, but you're also seeing a shift in the consumer saying, "I want my house to look like this. I want this product on my house." You're seeing a lot more metal roofs going on the houses, because they last longer. It's a better product. I mean, hands down. So, when you're looking at what is being expected, I think it's starting there. It's coming from the architects, number one. 

Number two, you're also seeing a divergence in the market with homeowners who don't want the McMansions anymore. That's why you're seeing the barndominiums pop up and you're seeing them become a thing because it's a one big solution that is appealing. And that is also extremely cost-effective. The big custom homes anymore that take 12 months to build and then all of a sudden you put up a barndominium in five, and a nice one too. And again, you're getting a superior product out of it. You're putting on a very good metal wall panel that's going to outlive the siding that's on the house. You're putting on a metal roof that's going to outlive a shingled roof. I think that it's becoming performance. And I think people are becoming more budget conscious when they are building houses to say, "How do I get a longer longevity out of this? I don't want to redo things." I think it's that.

And then on the same thing when it comes to the contractors, when you look at the equipment like they have. Where a contractor's out there, it's about him realigning the cost that he's spending and keeping it more in his pocket. If he can buy a roll form machine and instead of spending that absorbent amount of money to buy the product from somebody and have all the trucking and have all those delivery fees and have the installation issues because you've got five damaged panels and now you've got to wait two weeks to get more panels, you're realigning those costs. From a business owner standpoint, and I know from an installation standpoint, we run into that all the time. Our panels come out, we don't roll form in the field. Our panels come out already formed in bundles ready to install, but when we run across it, we're waiting two to three weeks when we run across missing or damaged material. Whereas if we had a roll form machine, we could just do it right there. So I understand that the need for that, but that's the benefit-

Terry McGuire: We have to talk about that, Bobby.

Bobby Mesmer: You're welcome.

Terry McGuire: We can supply that.

Bobby Mesmer: You're welcome. Commission, 1%. But people are becoming more smart. Everybody's becoming smarter, from the contractor to the consumer. People are looking and saying, "I want something better. I'm tired of the old and I want something better." And that's where I think why you're seeing the market. And I think it's going to continue that way. I think through 2025, consumers are becoming, with the budget conscious consumer that's out there, they want a better value for what they're getting and they're willing to, does metal roofing cost a little bit more?

Probably. Maybe it's relative. I don't know off the top of my head, but I can tell you that the longevity of it, they're not considering replacing a roof in 15 or 20 years. That roof is going to last them if installed correctly, 25 to 30 realistically.

Adam Mazzella: And you have insurance driving the market that way too. They're saying, "I don't want to replace roof in five years and 10 years." They want a more durable, longer-lasting, more sustainable product altogether as well.

Heidi Ellsworth: That insurance is driving so much. And I was going, to that point, extreme weather. Go ahead.

Terry McGuire: That is an exciting part for us. Because living in Colorado where wildfires are rampant, and we know it's rampant in California, what we're seeing and some people are actually coming to us are saying, "Hey, our insurance company is requiring that the entire facade be metal." So, we're doing bored and bad out of these machines now. So you can do the wall panels in residential, then you're going up to the standing seam roof and the fire rolls through and you look the exact same. Unfortunately, your surroundings don't, but you look the exact same. And so, I think at some point insurance companies are going to require it. Certainly require on the roof and maybe require it for walls. And again, that's just a growth potential for us.

Heidi Ellsworth: And you really see it when you think about the wildfires and you think about the hurricanes that just went through Florida this year, and there is such a movement in Florida for metal roofs, we're seeing it. And Texas, Texas, we've been seeing huge growth and people talking about what's going on in the barndominiums, the big metal buildings as they're building them. One of thing, got so excited about this topic, but one other thing on that is sustainability and this next generation. I think to be 100% honest, our older generation doesn't tend to always be as in tune to the sustainability message. But that new home buyers who are looking at it and saying, "I can build a metal barndominium, it's less cost, it's more sustainable, it's going to last longer. I don't have to do as much."

Bobby Mesmer: And that's a cycle though, right?

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah.

Bobby Mesmer: Because the older generations, they had a good product back in the day. Products were better. We've gone, we've now hit the downturn where products being made overseas or whatever's going on with them is, you're not getting a good product. And people are seeing that. And so what they're doing is you're seeing, again in a new home construction. You buy a new home and you're like, "Wow, I paid," I mean homes are expensive. "I paid a million dollars, I paid 1,000,005 for this home," but you got cheap products in it. So that's making them say, "I want more value for my dollar." That's what I think. So you're back on that uptick of you have to produce something that's good and that's because the demand is out there, and we're all seeing it.

Heidi Ellsworth: And do you see more contractors are actually ... Contractors who traditionally maybe were not metal, in roofing it'd be asphalt shingle. People are doing more shingles in building, obviously custom builders moving to. It seems like there's a movement to also incorporate metal into their business to diversify, so that they can answer some of these demands. Are you seeing some of that?

Adam Mazzella: Yeah. I mean, and you see it even in the track home builds, they're incorporating metal. I mean they're trying to figure out more ways. Now, metal doesn't necessarily fit into that volume construction methodology, but again, making it more accessible, educating the end-user more than they've ever been educated. I mean 20 years ago you'd show up and you'd say, "What are my options, shingle or shake?" And it's very limited as a homeowner. Now homeowners are saying, "No, that looks cool. There is some curb appeal to it. It's not this industrial looking panel going over their porch. It really is a lower profile. Matching the color trends, et cetera."

So, as education happens in the industry, both us as manufacturers educating the whole of the market, not just contractors, not just installers, but that end-user and the homeowner and the architect, they're going to say, "Hey, I want more of that. Or help us understand that." Now, as it relates to the roofing contractor trying to go from traditional shingle roof to metal roof, it is a dynamic. It's not just show up and figure it out. The education piece with Sheffield, with New Tech, with a lot of our competitors is magnitudes of order far greater than it was five years ago. And that's one of the cool things about what's helping drive this industry, is that education component. Is that more intelligent homeowner. Now, it can be more work for us, but at the end of the day people are making a better decision and hopefully we're helping educate people along the way with that.

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah.

Bobby Mesmer: And let me just ask you guys real quick, do you see that also that the metal trend is closing the gap on pricing too, right? Do you see that against, because really you wanted a standing seam roof 10, 15 years ago that was for the rich people. Because it was out of touch, great product, but still out of touch. Now I'm wondering, I know I'm seeing it, but I wanted to hear, because you guys are the manufacturer of the product, do you see that closing the gap, the price gap a little bit. It's not relative, but the price gap is closed?

Adam Mazzella: And it's also looking at it, the cost of shingles goes up every year. I mean it has every year and it keeps going up, keeps going-

Bobby Mesmer: Because of the price of oil.

Adam Mazzella: Right? Exactly.

Bobby Mesmer: It's driven by that.

Adam Mazzella: Oil, wood, everything continues to go up related to shingles. Now metal goes up, but it seemingly is not going up as fast. But I would also say the more people in the metal roofing market, metal roof installation market creating competition, that's going to help spread the cost out as well. But you replace a metal roof once every 30, 40, 50 years, you replace a shingle roof every 10, 15 years. So, people looking at that spread over time with the cost of shingles going up at the rate that they are every 10 years. Yes, it definitely is closing that gap when you look at the big picture.

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah, I think the demand to that point is really bringing it on. Okay, so let's switch a little bit over to technology. Because I am really interested in the technology. So Terry, I want to start with you, just we are seeing things, drones, robots, automations, software, aerial measurements, all of those kinds of things. What are you seeing to help? We talk about labor shortage and we talk about productivity for the contractors. How is machinery and getting the right machines and really getting that automated, how is that changing the landscape?

Terry McGuire: Yeah, I mean, speaking to New Tech, we look at it and say, "Hey, there's less skilled labor in the market. So what can the machine do to help that situation for the contractor?" Notching is something where there's less snipping going on. For us, we're just trying to find things that take the manual labor out of the process and simplify the interface with the machine. Because the more complicated it is, the harder it is for everybody to operate, the harder it is for them to find someone to operate the machine. And if they lose somebody, then they're back to square one and they got to start over. So really for us is simplify and try to take out any steps that we possibly can for now with the machine. I mean, certainly we don't have robots running it yet and I don't see that in 2025, but we're conscious to it and we're conscious to what can we do? Every time we think about it or we're thinking about a new machine or we're thinking about an upgrade to the machine, it's how to simplify the machine.

Heidi Ellsworth: So, you have a concept machine on the floor where you're bringing contractors in and showing the concepts, asking for their feedback, asking for their thoughts. That has to be leading towards more technology within the machines?

Terry McGuire: Yeah, absolutely. That concept machine is really about customer innovation. And it's not about New Tech in a building in the dark in Colorado saying, I think this is what people need, what it is, is what have we heard people ask us for? What do we think they might need? And then we bring it here and we let them tell us, "Hey, you missed this by a mile and did you think about this? Or I absolutely love that." And so, we wanted to come here and show what could be possible, what might be next. And also, there's 12 different concepts on that machine, but how many new concepts come from people walking this floor today. Where they're like, "I think those are great, but you should have thought about the 13th and the 14th." 

So, we're really excited about that and it really is a shift in how NTM innovates. And not innovate in a way that we think is the right way, but the way that the person who runs the machine every day thinks. And it's so important. When you stand there with the machine when it's hot or it's snowing or it's raining or it's not running correctly, you have a better idea of what you would like it to do, how you would like it to act. Boy, I wish it could be as simple as I wish the E-stop was right there. I got to reach around. And you would think that we would catch all of that, but we don't catch it as well as somebody who runs the machine day to day. Really it's respect for the people who utilize our machine to make a living. And we want their feedback and we want to make that machine fit exactly what they want.

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah, I love that and I love that feedback, that contractor-driven feedback is so important when we're talking about technology with the contractors and in manufacturing, I mean manufacturing what we're seeing now, it's pretty amazing on the productivity and really the automation. What are you seeing from Sheffield and also just in the industry overall?

Adam Mazzella: Going back to a lot of the New Tech stuff, all of these things were, how do we make it safer? How do we make it more ergonomic? How do we make this better? So we play the Sheffield piece like peanut butter and jelly between Sheffield and New Tech, and a lot of that has to do with what our customers are saying. Most of these innovations at New Tech were really driven by five years of field service work culminating in the last year of us being able to consolidate all of this think tank thought process and say, "First and foremost, it needs to be a safer machine." It's harder for people to be safer, because let's be honest, it's a less skilled world than it was 20 years ago. So we want to make it safer. We want to take a lot of the complication out of it. So, we're looking at that and we look at it that way on both sides, both Sheffield and New Tech.

Heidi Ellsworth: And safety always leading there, and in the field and in the plants, right?

Adam Mazzella: Absolutely. And that's whether it be guarding, I mean our parent company is really at heart a safety company. It's a lifting, rigging, safety kind of company. We do fall protection, you name it. So that really is a core value. It is a core value and it's thought of in everything that we're doing as far as it's not just about the dollar or the bottom line, we want to make a safe product. We want to make a safe work environment for us, and it's just in everything we're trying to do.

Heidi Ellsworth: That's cool. Technology. I'm really interested, what's your favorite technology in 2024 and what are you looking for in 2025 on the job site and also in your office?

Bobby Mesmer: That's a hard question to ask for us from an erection standpoint. Because we're still, we're like dinosaurs, you know what I mean? The technology and safety, as was talked about, is always amazing and that's always getting better. We love the technology and equipment that we're able to use, the rotating telehandlers that are out there, the big manatees for erecting, those are, I mean we're actually buying three of them right now. I love that kind of technology. Even down to the hand tools. I mean for us, I mean, you have guys here that are showing booths of different screw guns and hand tools. I mean, these things have come a long way. And then you look at companies like DeWalt and Milwaukee and all them. And I will say, I mean, it's not a competition between the two, but Milwaukee really puts a lot of emphasis in industry and specific industries and what they're doing.

And the technology just in a simple screw gun that most people think that they just pick up at Home Depot. The screw gun that you pick up at Home Depot is completely different than the screw guns that we use. It looks the same, but it doesn't operate the same. And so, that kind of technology is great for us. And that's important for us. It's about repetition, because that's what we do every day. We're repetition, we're putting in screws all day long, we're putting in clips all day long. And to have the tools that have the right technology that help that along, down to a bit, that goes into the drill, that puts the screw into the clip that holds down the roof panel. That technology to us is most important. Because how long is that bit lasting for us, and how well is a seeding the screw? Is it over seeding it, is it under seeding it? What is going on with it?

Because we don't want to oil can the panel, whether it's a wall panel or a rain screen panel, things like that. Yeah, I mean, so from our standpoint, that's the technology that matters the most and we're excited to see what these manufacturers come up with. Even to the manufacturers like these guys with their different products. We're excited to stand back and see. We don't particularly work in the realm that they do. They mainly work in the residential realm, but to see that product and to say, "Hey guys, I like what you're doing there. I could probably integrate this into the commercial side because we're seeing a lot more of the standing scene, traditional standing scene type roof." Maybe there's some technology there that we can talk about and what that does in a heavier gauge panel that fits to the commercial side. And then we talk about that technology and maybe in a year they have a commercial machine that they're like, "Hey, let's roll one out."

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah. I think one of the questions I have on what you said on the tools and stuff, one of the things I've been ... And maybe this is old news, but it always is cool to me, is what they're doing with GPS and even productivity. I mean, I know on the roofing side we have machines that are watching productivity that actually give reports back to the office on what's happening and they're doing it through the machines. It seems like there's a lot of that. And then the whole, we were just at an expo a couple of weeks ago, the whole battery, everything's battery. I know that sounds old again, but I'm like, "Okay, everything's battery." It seems like in some of the more traditional mark, we're still pulling power cords across the top of the roof, but that's all changing, so.

Bobby Mesmer: We're 100% battery. There's nothing that we're pulling cords with anymore. Even down to when we're doing structural steel and our TC bolts, which require a heavy duty machine that's a battery operated machine now, that you're snapping TC bolts with on your structural connections. And that integration helps out a lot. Because cords, people tripping over them. It's just something else that's a problem. Technology's gone a long way.

Heidi Ellsworth: Safety. Yeah. Yeah, it's fun to watch. It's fun to watch those things. Go ahead.

Adam Mazzella: Well, there's just a lot of shop floor automation. You're talking about technology that trend's not going away. So, people getting aftermarket controllers with respect to our machines and integrating it into their ERP and MRP systems, to allow that. What is going on? How quickly did we do this? Batch processing of jobs, you name it. People are honed in on productivity, whether they're on the field, their job site or their manufacturing setting being the job site. Or their manufacturing setting being a manufacturing facility where they're making panels, they're tracking it, they want to know where the roadblocks are, where the bottlenecks are and driving a more efficient process.

Heidi Ellsworth: And we're at a point where we can get that data. It wasn't always, even five years ago, like you said before, you couldn't get all that data. Today we have machines that are sending that data to our phones and telling us, and we're downloading spreadsheets like, okay, this didn't work so well or it did. I think those are the kinds of things too, that I would love to see. I'm sure it's going to be coming out with some of your concepts. How are we watching? How is that data getting from the machines into our systems?

Terry McGuire: Yeah, I mean, Adam spoke about it briefly in terms of being able to interface with ERP and MRP systems. We've made it, with a few of those companies we've made it so it's plug and play, make it easier. We're currently talking about cellular options, so you can feed that stuff cellular.

Heidi Ellsworth: Nice.

Terry McGuire: A lot of times the contractor wants to know, "Hey, are they running anything today?" And he can look on his phone if we were to get to that point and be able to say, "Hey, they've run this many feet. I know they're working." I think that cellular technology-

Bobby Mesmer: Or they're not getting enough done.

Terry McGuire: Or they're not, most likely that's what the answer is going to be. But that's something we're talking about. So I think we'll continue to look at that stuff.

Heidi Ellsworth: It's important I think when you look at the apps that are coming out, the software that's coming out for safety, where you can actually check back in the office, did everybody do their toolbox talk? Did they check in? I mean, we're just seeing this across the board to that data flowing, hopefully two ways.

Terry McGuire: We'd like to send them notes on their phone that, "Hey, the machine needs a preventative maintenance. What have you done? You've went past this amount, this many feet and you haven't done this." So it'd be really neat to be able to feed that information to the operators-

Heidi Ellsworth: I have to tell you-

Terry McGuire: ... as well.

Heidi Ellsworth: ... my car tells me it needs an oil change.

Terry McGuire: Exactly.

Heidi Ellsworth: There you go. Okay.

Bobby Mesmer: And you do it when it tells you is the question.

Heidi Ellsworth: No, that's a problem. I got to quit traveling, so okay, I love this. Let's go a little bit to ... Okay, we talked about this before, but I think this is really important. Interest rates, the economy. I know we're going to stay kind of, we've got six days until the craziness of the elections are over, but what are some of the things ... We talked about a little bit, but I'd like to dive just a little bit deeper. We'll start with you Bobby, on just what you're seeing out there as in backlogs, building owners? What's 2025 looking like?

Bobby Mesmer: I think it depends on the sector that you're in. And there's multitudes, right? You have the residential, you have the commercial and then you have the federal municipal sector. The federal municipal sector we're seeing is busy. It's still busy. It's been busy all this year. It's going to stay busy all through next year. They're constantly pumping money into that, so you're never going to lose in that particular sector. In the commercial sector, it's been steady. It hasn't been as good as it has been. It's been steady this year. We're seeing everybody kind of holding stale right now. They're holding tight to see what's going to go happen in the next six days. Is work going to pick back up? Sure, the commercial sector's never going to completely die, but you are. But I think you're not going to see, depending on which way it goes, you either.

It's either you're going to see a dramatic increase or you're going to see it stay pretty steady where it's at. And so everything's on hold right now. In the commercial sector, we're seeing there's a lot of projects that are ready to go.

There's a lot of projects that are planned and the contracts are ready, but nobody's pulling the trigger until January 15th is what they're telling us. And then the residential, we don't work in that side. But I know that the residential market, I have some friends who are big residential builders. And they're dying a slow death right now. I mean, I got one friend in particular, I mean he's one of the largest builders in Nashville and he can't sell a house to save his life. And so it's because of interest rates and all. So I think it's going to be interesting to see what does happen. I think 2025 could be a fantastic year or it could be a year like we've seen the last six months of this year, which is very just flat.

Heidi Ellsworth: Very flat. And if the interest rates do come down, there is some pent-up demand out there, we think, for housing.

Bobby Mesmer: There is. But even if interest rates continue to roll back, the problem is that inflation is still high. So, the interest rates aren't going to readjust the inflation. And I'm not an economist, but that's just normal understanding of economy. So you can drop the interest rates all you want, but it's not going to force people to get out there because the stuff that's out there is still too expensive-

Heidi Ellsworth: To buy. Makes sense.

Bobby Mesmer: I think you have a double-edged sword here, and you got two problems really in one. And then like you said though, is there inventory out there? Sure there is. But you also have inventory in the housing market. The housing market has inventory, but people are asking way too much money. Because they've allowed them to drive themselves up to prices which the houses aren't worth. So I think that you're dealing with those two economical problems and nobody's really created a substantial solution to it yet. So I don't know what the answer to that is.

Heidi Ellsworth: It's going to be interesting.

Adam Mazzella: Yeah, I mean, I see what you're talking about, Bobby. I think the interest rates, I think consumers are going, they're so used to that free money world that we spent basically the last 10 years. And whether or not we get there or not is another question. But I think as interest rates drop down, you're going to see homeowners say, "Hey, I can live with 30 years at an elevated price, because I can bury it over 30 years at 4%. I don't want to pay almost double over the life of 30 years at 7%." Now granted, I don't think anyone's going to sit here and say, "Interest rates are going to stay at seven plus percent and I'll never be able to refinance over 30 years." But I think that upfront sticker shock of saying, "Hey, three years ago I could have bought a $400,000 house and paid this over the life. Or today I can buy a $500,000 house and I'm paying triple that."

Heidi Ellsworth: That's a problem.

Adam Mazzella: Anxious to see where things go. But yeah, the inflation piece is a backbreaker across the board in the economy, the way inflation is tracked and calculated, it seems like it's a moving target and hopefully we can get back on track.

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah, because we obviously need housing, but there's a lot of things that are happening out there too with the change in remote working and change where people are living, where people are buying, what's happening to all these shopping malls. So, there's some things that luckily in construction, we still have to retrofit and we're going to help. There's still going to be work, but there is a definite shift that seems to be happening on just how we're still kind of in a COVID hangover just a little bit, trying to figure it out. Just a tad, a bit. Terry, what are you seeing overall?

Terry McGuire: I can't say it better than Adam and Bobby did, but speaking to NTM, we haven't seen a major slowdown based on interest rates. We've seen some of the people that finance these machines be more creative, maybe hold off your first payment for 12 months. We see people spending cash instead of trying to go to financing. So I try not to participate in anything that's going on in the economy. I like to say we don't participate. We're going to do well, regardless.

Heidi Ellsworth: I like that.

Terry McGuire: That only goes so far, but it is our motto. But people are finding ways to buy these machines, and I think to a point that was made earlier, we're steady, but there's growth as well. And you need equipment to make that standing seem right. You need gutters, you need equipment to make that. There's still growth in it. So, we're sitting in a spot that's somewhat insulated and certainly we're happy about that. If the interest rates come down, it'll be easier to sell the machines. It's as simple as that. And I'm waiting for the next, what did we say, six days. I kind of agree with Bobby. I think it'll be a slight down depending on how it goes. And certainly it'll be an explosion if it goes the other way. And I'm excited for what this is going to look like in 2025.

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah, yeah. It's out there and we're almost there. I can't believe it. So one of the things you talked about earlier, Adam, that I think is really key to this industry right now. And that it kind of ties all together. And that is the labor shortage and the lack of skilled training and education. And getting the young people to want to come into the trades. How are we bringing that next generation, especially since we had kind of a drought of classes, shock ed, everything else in the high schools over the last 20 years or 40 years. You were talking about all the great training programs that you're seeing out there. What are some of the things you're hearing about just industry-wide overall about getting that next generation into metal construction? Into construction overall?

Adam Mazzella: Yeah, I was going to say, it's more about the trades. There's a much better view of what you should school today than there probably has been for the last 20 plus years. There's a lot more access to information, not just education. So as you're getting out of high school or making that journey to what do I want to do? What do I want to be when I grow up? People have a keen eye of going, "Do I really need to go take on $100,000 of debt to go get a job where I'm working from home, et cetera?" And you're going, "That's not glamorous." There is just a general, I think, innate feeling of people wanting to be part of something, building something, work with their hands, controlling their own destiny.

That's a real thing. And I think this younger generation is seeing that, waking up to that, adjacent to that. I know young kids that have, I say young kids, people in their mid-20s that went through that and they're going, "I want to go work with my hands. I want to create my own business, whether it be metal, HVAC, metal roofing, any sort of roofing, plumbing, you name it." The opportunity for somebody to earn and control their own destiny, to me it's apparent that it's a lot more wide open and a lot more opportunity today than it's ever been really publicized coming through the traditional high school to college model the last two, three decades.

Heidi Ellsworth: And it's kind of crazy when you look at some of these young people who maybe did get a degree, do have loans, but they're still going, I want to do this because no one really talked to me about doing that when I was at a point to make those decisions. But now they are the business owners. They're running the business. You started your own business. What do you see with young people coming into the trades?

Bobby Mesmer: There's definitely a stopgap that occurred, right? I mean, for years everybody was pushed to go to college, go to college, don't do the trades. Trades are dirty. Dirty jobs. Trades are, you don't want to work with your hands and this and that. There's no money in the trades, and it's none of that. And I grew up in the trades. My father owned his own business for 40 years. I started this business 24 years ago going on 25. So the stopgap that's there is because everybody's pushed too many people. There is an uptick. I think the industries and the associations need to do a better job at educating the people, educating the masses, educating the high schools across the country because nobody talks to them. It's still even in this day--look, my wife was an educator for 12 years and then became a vice principal and a principal.

The schools speak nothing of the trades. The guidance counselors who are guiding these kids don't say, "Hey, maybe you should go into a trade." Even if they don't belong in college because they didn't do well in school, they still say, "Now, you should go to college." There's no reason for that. And I'm an advocate of saying, "Don't do that. Don't do that to yourself. Don't take on the debt like Adam talks about. And listen, trades make good money. I mean, my average employee in the field makes anywhere between a hundred to $150,000 a year. My average field worker.

Heidi Ellsworth: Wow.

Bobby Mesmer: That's a great living.

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah.

Bobby Mesmer: It's a great living. And even with inflation and interest rates the way they are, you can still live very well making that kind of money.

Terry McGuire: And to that point, when the bell rings and you go home, you don't have to think about it. You're not responsible. They're not married to it. And the younger generation does have that aspiration to travel the world or do other things, at least on the weekend and not think about it. I work all the time and think about work all the time, but that isn't necessarily the way that people look at it now. So being able to leave at the end of the day and still pocket 150,000 and not be responsible for what happens from three o'clock in the afternoon until six a.m. again is a great place to be. So I totally agree with you.

Bobby Mesmer: And we always say too to people, "Look, don't you want to be involved in a business where you actually create something?" We're creating shit every day. Every day we're creating stuff. I always talk about buildings. Buildings are living, breathing objects. You walk past a building that hasn't been occupied for 10 years, it falls apart. Why? Because it's not interacting with human interaction. And so we're literally developing things that are living and breathing around us every single day. So when we show up, at least in my industry, I show up to a site, it's a piece of concrete pad. I walk away. There's a full complete enclosed building there. There's pride in that, and there's enough pride. You see these videos, they turn to cliche, but I laugh at them on TikTok sometimes. It's like, oh, how do you know you're married to a contractor husband?

Because as you drive down the road, he's like, I built that. I built that. I did that. But there's so much pride in saying that, and I feel like we missed that. And that's the thing. And it starts early on. Like I said, the associations, they do a great job, but I feel like they need to do a much better job really getting into the high schools. We got rid of all the vo-tech schools and the trade programs in there, bring them back. Let people realize what they could be missing out on. Because I think you're going to have a lot more kids who want to be involved in the trades. Because they don't have interaction with it early on, they don't know that they want to be involved.

Heidi Ellsworth: Right. Well, and I'll tell you what, SkillsUSA, which is the largest group of ... A competition for the trades, which is here and not just the trades, it's cosmetology, it's everything. It's in this building here in Atlanta every June. And for the first time when you came down these escalators, there was a big roofing pavilion out there and there were a competition with roofing. There is a beautiful HVAC competition that they do. So, it is happening, but it's time. I mean, we have to keep pushing it. So kudos to National Roofing Contractors Association, because really kind of to your point, which is exactly, they've stepped forward and said, "We made ourselves known we're good."

Bobby Mesmer: If you're not getting it out there and nobody knows about it and everybody only believes what they're going to see online, educate the kids, let them understand what it is, let them see it and let them see the type of quality. I mean, go walk around to some of these booths in here and look at some of what the machinery is pushing out or what the panels look like. I mean, it's beautiful product. And you get to work with that all day long and create something where most of the time people are standing back being like, I absolutely love that. That's gratifying in my opinion.

Heidi Ellsworth: I have to tell you, probably one of the best things that happened this last week is I had a contractor email and he says, "I want to bring my son, but you have to be 18. Is there a thing? Is that really real? How can we get him in there?" And I'm like, "Ah, we'll get you in. We will talk to Judy." And she of course made it all happen. When you have that saying, I want to bring to these, kind of shows, I think it makes such a huge difference. And when you think about the next generation, they love working with machines. So you kind of got it right there's.

Terry McGuire: Its true.

Heidi Ellsworth: I know.

Terry McGuire: It's true. I mean, we see some young guys coming into the booth that are strategizing, trying to figure out, "How do we buy one of these?" And they're a team. They're buddies out of high school or something like that, and they've been roofing for somebody and they're like, "We're trying to figure out how to do this on our own." That's exciting to see. And I saw one today, and they were trying to figure out exactly what they needed and how could they do that, the cheapest, what was the cheapest way in? And we talked briefly about maybe starting in the gutter world and pushing in the standing scene.

Heidi Ellsworth: I was just going to say gutters.

Terry McGuire: And so I do see that shift. It is slowly happening. Even my local high school is building an automotive unit for the high school, so they're going to tech, automotive tech there again, because all of that went away, to your point. So I think everyone said it, but it's true. It's a slow shift. Who wants to, how many people come out with a business degree?

Bobby Mesmer: Can't do anything with it.

Terry McGuire: And you can't do anything with it. And you come to me and I'm looking for somebody, even at the executive level, I'm like, "Is it inherent? Are you a leader? You didn't need to go to school for that." And so I think it's something-

Heidi Ellsworth: And that's a huge shift.

Terry McGuire: ... that they're starting to see. It's a huge shift, but I think people are seeing that when they leave high school, do I really want to do this? I'm just going to go drink a bunch of beer and owe 100,000 bucks. You can come over here to our booth and I'll sell you a machine for 100,000 bucks and you can drink a lot of beer, make money.

Heidi Ellsworth: Not while you're running the machine.

Terry McGuire: Not while you're running.

Bobby Mesmer: It fits with the roofer lifestyle already.

Heidi Ellsworth: I know.

Adam Mazzella: Put the beer down to run the machine.

Bobby Mesmer: You're doing it safe. Get the safety equipment.

Terry McGuire: You get my point though, right?

Heidi Ellsworth: I think it's a perfect point. I just had to tease you-

Terry McGuire: No you should.

Heidi Ellsworth: ... because we were talking about that earlier.

Terry McGuire: I'm sure I'll hear about it from this guy over here. Now we're talking about running our equipment while drinking beer, Terry. Really?

Heidi Ellsworth: No, no.

Bobby Mesmer: Just be tied off. You'll be fine.

Adam Mazzella: Build the safety into the machine.

Heidi Ellsworth: It's just one of the benefits after hours. That's what it all comes through.

Terry McGuire: It is a drink holder, but it's for Gatorade.

Heidi Ellsworth: Keep that Gatorade coming. Well, okay. I want to kind of finish off to talk a little bit about associations. METALCON is sponsored by the Metal Construction Association. We also have Metal Roofing Alliance here. And also just the folks at METALCON I think they've done such a great job led by Judy Geller to put all this together. Some final thoughts on why people should take the time out to come to METALCON, to come to your booths and to really get involved with their associations. To be able to help with a lot of these things that we've just been talking about. Terry, let's start with you.

Terry McGuire: Yeah, I mean, the reason I want you to come is to come over to the NTM booth. And we have a concept machine that you could vote on what you like or don't like this year, so that's the biggest reason. In terms of all the associations, NTM kind of sits in a weird spot and they're not necessarily specific to us. But they are specific to the people who buy our machine. So whatever support they can get, whatever help they can get only helps us, so that's how I see it. But you should definitely come because you get a chance to see all this stuff that you would never see. And you might walk by something and say, "That's going to make my life a ton easier."

Heidi Ellsworth: It's really true. Like you said earlier, the innovation that's here, what's your thoughts on that, getting involved with associations and being a part of METALCON?

Adam Mazzella: Yeah, so this is a great show. Would love it if people came, checked it out, whether you're a contractor or people like us, we have our own booths here, but I love walking around, checking out what's new, what's different, what's hot, things like that. Terry and I are going to tag team Bobby after this and we're going to convince him to buy a machine and find a [inaudible 00:52:33].

Terry McGuire: We have one commercial machine already.

Heidi Ellsworth: Okay?

Adam Mazzella: Yeah. With many profiles.

Bobby Mesmer: I'm broke this year.

Adam Mazzella: Roofs walls, you name it.

Bobby Mesmer: Interest rates are too high.

Terry McGuire: I got to wait for six more days.

Adam Mazzella: I used my crystal ball, they're going down.

Bobby Mesmer: I thought you didn't believe in that.

Adam Mazzella: So it's great. And we have people on our teams that contribute at the MCA level of particular. It's awesome because they feel like they're contributing, they're giving back and they're moving the industry forward. And so when they're done with their time done with their service, everyone has always said how much they enjoyed it. It's a lot of work at the time, but I'm really glad I did that. And they're ready to cycle the next person through. And that gives them exposure to so many people, so many resources in the industry. Yes, you're interacting with a lot of competitors, but you got to remember we're all driving this industry forward. And if we sit here and bash each other rather than work aggressively with each other, it's going to make things more difficult for ourselves in the industry. It's a great thing.

Heidi Ellsworth: So well said. That's so true.

Adam Mazzella: Thank you.

Heidi Ellsworth: We want to rise the whole metal construction industry, right? Bringing all together. So, okay, we're going to be doing some fun things. You and I, with talking, having more conversations about erectors, about metal buildings on Metal Coffee shop. What are some of the reasons Erectors should be thinking about coming to METALCON and really understanding here and then be involved with someone like Metal Coffee Shop? Sorry, shameless plug, but why should they be involved?

Bobby Mesmer: Again, I mean, this is the industry show, right? If you're doing anything with metal, steel, metal panels, roof panels, whatever it is, this is the show to be at. Because there's all sorts of manufacturers, all sorts of vendors, all sorts of components that go into it. You're going to see something here that you didn't see before. And maybe you're thinking about how you vertically integrate your company a little bit and you say, "Hey, instead of buying screws here, I can buy screws direct from here." As simple as a screw. You know what I mean? And that's what you see. But you see what's going on in the industry too. Look, I'm not a manufacturer, but I look at what the manufacturers are doing, because that gives me insight to where the industry is going. Because they're the forefront of it. We're the guys who are installing it.

And then, being involved in the associations is really just advocacy. They're there to help you. They're there to help build around you and build around you as a contractor and for you to go to for help. You get yourself involved in a job and maybe it's a heavy spec job and you don't know the answer to it, you can call the association and they'll help you through it. Or they will say, "Hey, call the manufacturer. The manufacturer can help you through it. Call this person." And again, I feel like I'm echoing Adam a lot in some of the stuff he's saying, but it's also too-

Terry McGuire: It's scary.

Adam Mazzella: He's ready to buy. He's ready to buy.

Bobby Mesmer: He's ready to buy. Right? Exactly. He's brainwashing. But working together as an industry, you want to stay together as an industry. And that's the only way to build the industry. And if you're scared of competition, then you're in the wrong ... You shouldn't be doing what you're doing. Competition is good. Competition breeds excellence. I want competition because it makes me better. I want somebody to take a job from me because I would then look at myself and say, how did I lose that job? They want to build a better machine. The only way they're building a better machine is by having their competition build a machine that's better. And then they're saying, "Whoa, we need to beat that." And it keeps everybody reaching for the stars. And so through the associations you get that advocacy with that and you hope you build a community that's working towards the best interest of the industry. And then when you're all working towards the best interest of the industry, the industry is the best at that point. And nobody can beat us. And that's really what it comes down to.

Heidi Ellsworth: So true. Ah, perfect way to end these Coffee Conversations. That is so true. Gentlemen, I want to thank you very much. I want to thank New Tech and New Tech for being the sponsor of the Coffee Conversations.

Terry McGuire: Thank you for having us.

Heidi Ellsworth: Thank you so much.

Adam Mazzella: Appreciate it.

Heidi Ellsworth: And thank you for all your wisdom. I mean, just such great information that we're going to share out there. Thank you as always. Thank you-

Bobby Mesmer: Thank you so much.

Heidi Ellsworth: ... for being an influencer.

Bobby Mesmer: Love it here.

Terry McGuire: He did really good for a stand-in, I mean.

Heidi Ellsworth: He did really good. I'm telling you.

Bobby Mesmer: I'm just a dummy over here, man. That's all I did.

Outro: Hey, we're talking a Metal Coffee Shop influencer here, so there we go. And you can find out all kinds of information about New Tech Machinery and about Sheffield on Roofers Coffee Shop and on Metal Coffee Shop. Along with, you can find Bobby as one of our influencers. So look for his comments on Metal Coffee Shop and watch for more. We have a lot more coming in the erector world. We're going to be talking about metal buildings a lot. We will be back here in just a little bit with some more interviews. We've got a lot more coming today. And again, we are on the Soundstage sponsored by New Tech Machinery. Thank you. We'll be back ...