Coffee Conversations LIVE from METALCON - Sponsored by New Tech Machinery - PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of an live interview with Mark D Macdonald, John Sheridan of Sheridan Metal Resources, Ken Gieseke of Metal Roofing Alliance, and Terry McGuire of NTM. You can read the interview below, listen to the podcast here, or watch the webinar.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

... for our customers in bringing value. I'm really excited about this conversation.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

I'm excited, too, and I want to say, "Thank you," because Metal Coffee Shop is sponsored by Sherwin-Williams and this is all about Metal Coffee Shop. I mean, we have, you can't see it here, but big banners and Metal Coffee Shop people are coming by. We're a Top Product Award winner here at METALCON, so thank you.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

No, thank you. I want to say also, what's great about this conversation is the fact that you're bringing the most important aspect that the foundation of everything that we do are the manufacturers. The fact that you have two here is amazing, so thank you guys for coming.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

It's awesome, this is great. And last, but certainly not least, John, please introduce yourself, your company, your consulting, all your great stuff.

 

John Sheridan:

John Sheridan, great to be here. Owner of Sheridan Metal Resources, LLC and sheridantools.com. Primarily focused on training in the sheet metal industry, some consulting, some job site detailing, but primarily we're trying to get connected with MetalVue through Sherwin-Williams and some of the bigger manufacturers to expand the knowledge base in the metal industry.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

So, I have to tell this story. Metal Coffee Shop, as many of you know, started this June. Actually, we went live in June, but in January we were at the Montana Roofing Contractors Association meeting show and we're working the booth, and this gentleman, John Sheridan, walks up and we start talking. And I said, "So, what do you do?" And he says, "Well, I do metal roofing training," and I'm like, "Oh, we need to be best friends because we're going to talk about that today." There is a huge... We need more labor, we need skilled labor, we need training, and so John, I'm really happy to have you here.

 

John Sheridan:

Trust me, it's been a whirlwind since then.

 

Ken Gieseke:

And actually, to bring that around is that we were looking for help with that, and you introduced us to John and we've become best friends, too. So, it just goes around. Yeah.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Small world, right? Yeah. That's why we're here.

 

John Sheridan:

The plan is to try and pull all this together, put a program together where we can bring the whole industry up.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yeah, I love that. I love that. Okay, speaking of that, let's first of all, let's just talk a little bit about what's going on here at METALCON at the show. So, Terry, I know we just had Tom on and he was talking about what you have going on in the booth, but what are some of the things, highlights, that you're seeing on the show and also in your booth?

 

Terry McGuire:

Yeah, as we said earlier, this is my first time at this show. We've only been here a few hours this morning. I did get a chance to look around at some of the booths this morning and spend some time taking in everything that goes on here. In terms of NTM, we're trying to highlight our new program that we've brought to the UNIQ controller. We're really excited about this. It's a user-friendly program. It's something that we are doing some displays with today in the booth, and we are also... For me, I'm just trying to meet people, I'm trying to get to know people. I'm putting some faces to some names. I've talked to a lot of people on the phone, but I haven't had a chance to meet them, so for me, it's really been about introducing myself to the people who buy our equipment.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Right. That's great. And you got to meet all these gentlemen, so there you go.

 

Terry McGuire:

Which has been a hoot, and whenever I can't answer a question like we talked about earlier, we're going to go right over here to Mark.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Right over here. There we go. I love it. Ken, you're here with the Metal Roofing Alliance and they always are a huge presence, do amazing things. What are some of the things that are happening around the MRA during the show?

 

Ken Gieseke:

Yeah, the MRA... First, I'll go back to what Terry said. I've been at every METALCON, so I'm kind of dating myself here but... So, it's always great to come back here and see industry friends I've known for a lot of years, so that's always good. Metal Roofing Alliance is an association that McElroy Metal belongs to. I've been on the board since its inception, and Metal Roofing Alliance is focused on one thing: that is getting more residential metal roofing on housetops. We're not involved in the commercial business, but strictly the residential side, and MRA's done a great job since it's been incepted, since it started back over 20 years ago, taking a market share up from about 3% to in the teens today.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Wow.

 

Ken Gieseke:

So, a lot of that is the work of the MRA to really educate homeowners on wanting a metal roof on their house. So, it's been fun to work with the MRA all these years.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

It's fun. We're going to have Renee on the sound stage tomorrow.

 

Ken Gieseke:

Excellent.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yeah, have her talk. Okay. The Sherwin-Williams booth, we've seen it over there. We have a big banner over on this side of the booth, too, that says something about MetalVue. What's that, Mark?

 

Mark D Macdonald:

What is MetalVue? That is the question of the hour. I think going back to the Sherwin-Williams booth as the baseline, like what are we doing over there? For us, we are here for our manufacturers, period. Full stop. So, we brought the kitchen sink at this show. We have our commercial sales representatives ready to talk to folks, we have even our tech service reps, which is part of our value proposition to our customers. And even beyond that, we have our full marketing team, including color and inspiration experts, because ultimately, what do we sell? We sell color. That's what this is all about.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Beautiful roofs.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

Everyone's in there talking about it. But beyond that, to bring additional value, we've got... We're Sherwin-Williams. We have all sorts of cool stuff, so we also have sealant, we have Geocel here-

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Phantom.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

Right. They're Phantom products, so the best sealants in the United States are here in our booth ready to talk to folks, so it's exciting. But you're like, "But wait, there's more." So, you said, "What's MetalVue?" We at Sherwin-Williams have spent... We have a lot of people thinking about our customers. We think about them... Think about you, Ken.

 

Ken Gieseke:

Appreciate that, Mark.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

And we say, "How can we help them bring value to their customers?" And the answer to that is, you have to make it easier for people to get a dang roof on a house, and that takes coordination, it takes efficiency, it takes a lot of things. So, we've invested heavily in making that happen, making that a reality. So, MetalVue is really the relationship with the manufacturer because without the manufacturer, helping these new customers, there is no program. Roofs aren't getting on houses, people. So, the manufacturer's building that relationship and then having a tech stack, having software to support that. Things like artificial intelligence and lead generation, things like one-visit-close sales training. You've got to have remote bidding and estimation. To include EagleView and blueprints, plans, drawings, XML files. All that's got to be readily available, and when you do that, you can get new customers who could put roofs on houses.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yeah, and that's really happening, and that leads us to John. John, I know you're here with the coffee shop, you're over at Sherwin-Williams, you're talking training. So, what do you see? I mean, I know you just got here, John, but what do you see?

 

John Sheridan:

I don't know how to follow that up.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yeah.

 

John Sheridan:

So, METALCON. My first METALCON was in the early 2000s in Chicago. It's the first time I ever did a training in front of a live audience. First time I ever did a training in front of the live audience was at METALCON, and it went very well. So, from then to now, METALCON and trade shows in general, for me, have always been a networking thing. So, everything that I've grown to today has come through networking at trade shows and developing relationships, meeting manufacturers, and just making it grow.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Which we're working [inaudible 00:07:23]-

 

Mark D Macdonald:

So, if I could jump in on that-

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yes.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

So, real quick, you made the mistake of introducing me to John Sheridan and we work with a company called OutThink that maybe you've heard of with Roberto.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yes, yes.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

And OutThink has been tremendous in helping us look forward and see beyond the next three to five years, and the biggest hurdle that we all face is new labor. That's a incredibly challenging problem, and so when you introduced me to John Sheridan, and I went on the YouTube video that was hosted on a Russian site and looked at it, and there's John Sheridan putting on what turns out is some of the most complex flashing that's been seen on an installation training video, I thought, "I've got to meet this guy."

 

Terry McGuire:

He was doing it in Russian?

 

Mark D Macdonald:

Yeah, I guess. Which is amazing.

 

Terry McGuire:

That is impressive.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

That's a Portland market. So, when we look at-

 

John Sheridan:

I try not to advertise that.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

So, when we look at where we need to go in the future, it starts with new labor, which starts with installation. So, John Sheridan, the guy many of you may not have heard of, is the guy who's going to help us make this happen. No pressure, John.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

No pressure, no pressure whatsoever.

 

John Sheridan:

Totally no pressure. We got this.

 

Ken Gieseke:

For the roofing contractors that are out here watching, I mean, it's a great market, is the residential metal roofing market. There's clearly a shortage of contractors doing the installation all across the country, and even in pockets where we have a lot of contractors, more are needed because those guys have long lead times and their bookings are out real far. There'll be a need for years for contractor development, which is what we're doing with Sherwin-Williams and what John's going to do now, too. It's very much needed in our industry.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yeah, and I think when you really are looking at the trends that we're seeing in 2022 and going into 2023, this is the trend. And I mean, Terry, what are you seeing on the machinery side of it, too, with contractors looking for automations, looking for ways that they don't have to have as much labor but still are getting skilled labor?

 

Terry McGuire:

What we're seeing with the machinery side of it is that they are tending to not run as many vans, if you will, or as many trucks as they were two years ago. They're starting to consolidate, they're utilizing the same group to run the panel machine as they're running the gutter machines. They're just finding different ways to get the jobs done with less people. They're not necessarily having success in finding more people and they're not necessarily expanding right now, either.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

So, that's really what we need to be looking at to help.

 

Terry McGuire:

100%.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

I mean, that's part of all of this.

 

Terry McGuire:

Yeah, 100%. I mean, the machines certainly help some of the efficiencies. When you put hot melts on there, there's certain ways that we can help them have less people on the job site, but ultimately we need more people and more contractors until they're putting in more trained people.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yeah. And I know, Ken, you and John and Mark went promoting everybody, but you are talking about training and you're doing some really special training for the industry to get more skilled labor. What are you hearing from your contractors at McElroy, and what are they kind of training?

 

Ken Gieseke:

To put a metal roof on is a little bit more skill involved than doing shingles, so it's taken those guys that are interested in residential metal roofing that aren't doing metal, but educating them on how to put metal on because it's a bit of a craftsmanship to it. If you're handy, you can definitely do it. So, I don't want to scare people that, if you're interested in metal roofing, don't be intimidated by it because guys like John can put together programs to train people how to put it on.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Right. So, this has been going on for a couple years, but we have been seeing the trend of asphalt contractors, or contractors that are doing mostly asphalt, who are now differentiating their business and are bringing metal on. That takes a lot of training of those crews and a lot of bringing on. So, Mark, that's one of the big areas that you've been focused on as a trend for a long time, make more with metal. And how are you seeing that asphalt, that transition's happening?

 

Mark D Macdonald:

So, the folks that are doing, and it's not just asphalters, but people who are selling premium products, is how I would... That's how I would characterize it. And anytime you sell premium products, what's the next thing you're looking for? Another premium product. And it just so happens that in our industry we have that product, it's called residential metal roofing. And so, what the asphalters are excited about is that when they have multiple metal roofing profiles to upsell, that is more money and more margin for that company. And all it takes is some coordination with their representative manufacturer and the opportunity to get some, I don't know, John, installation training?

 

John Sheridan:

Maybe. But from that standpoint, another way that people are growing into it is people that are bidding big shingle work or big companies that are out doing premium products will get a project that is multi-material. It'll have some shingles, it'll have some metal, and if they don't have the metal knowledge, that's where we can be of service to them.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yeah, that's a really good point, is that there is a lot of multi-material projects going on. Low slope to steep slope, all of that.

 

John Sheridan:

All that, yep.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yeah.

 

Ken Gieseke:

I think there's another fact that it's helping this, too, is that for years, guys could be... In communities around the country, shingles dominated and a contractor put on shingles, they didn't have to do metal. But as more and more metal gets put on these communities, they have to take it on if they want to grow their business or get involved in something new and continue to grow. So, that's another thing, too, that the growth of metal makes guys that do shingles want to get into metal or they're going to lose [inaudible 00:13:09]-

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

You mentioned at the very beginning, too, about MRA, they've been doing every year they're doing with Dodge, right?

 

Ken Gieseke:

Yes.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Market studies. Tell us just a little bit because I want to kind of set that stage of, we've been seeing growth for a long time, every year.

 

Ken Gieseke:

Yeah. The Dodge data when we first started was about 3% market share for retrofit. This would be taking a shingle roof and going over the top of it, and today that's in the teens. It's been 13% to 14%, 15% over the last few years and continues to grow, and a lot of that is due to Brooke of the MRA for all these years promoting it. I mean, we started the MRA back... In those days we had focus groups, and the focus groups said, "If you need a new roof, would you consider metal?" And the answer was no.

I mean, metal was not in the consideration set, so we knew as an association, the first thing we had to do is get people that need a new roof to think about metal. And over the years, we've gotten to that point where today, I think when people need a new roof, they see a lot of metal out there and they think about it at least. What we need to do is make it easier for them to get that roof. That's what we're doing with MetalVue and Sherwin-Williams, is make it easier for a homeowner to get that on a roof.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

To get them over... Well, and one of the things that we are hearing on a regular basis, too, is the market demand for sustainability and also for performance. And this is being driven not just by the roof, but also what's possibly going on top of it, solar. Terry, what are you seeing on that kind of demand of the durability, the performance of metal from some of your contractors?

 

Terry McGuire:

Again, I've been in this industry for 13 months, so you want to take it with a grain of salt. I've really been concentrating on new tech and new tech machinery, the quality of that product, the usability of that product, the interfaces of that product, and not as much... I don't have a wide understanding of what is happening in the metal world in terms of the installation of the product, or what are some of the driving factors that he was speaking about when people are switching from asphalt to metal?

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Right. But you're seeing the growth of them getting into metal.

 

Terry McGuire:

We are. I mean, there's a lot of growth... New to this and looking, and you just look around. A lot of the roofs are asphalt, and so it goes to show that there's a lot of opportunity. What I do see is that between some of the engineering that's behind some of the profiles, some of the changes in the weather, metal is becoming a more wanted product. Sometimes it's actually a product that's a required product, depending on the region and where you live, so the potential is huge. We haven't touched the market. I mean, just again, walk outside and look around and it's asphalt.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yeah.

 

Ken Gieseke:

Can I address the solar side of it?

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yes, please. The solar side, yeah.

 

Ken Gieseke:

I think is the key thing, and the environmental side. I mean, when a homeowner's looking for a new roof, one thing they want is something that's going to last a long time. When a hailstorm comes, your metal's going to last better than shingles, typically. We can't say that hail will never dent a metal roof, but it's not like a shingle roof. And consumers or homeowners are tired of replacing a roof every time something happens like that, so the sustainability is one. And it comes to the solar side, metal is the best host substrate for solar. So, it's nice about a standing seam roof, you roll form it with Terry's equipment, you put a standing seam roof on, you may not want solar today but you want it five years from now for whatever reason. You can just put it right on the seams without penetrating the roof and it's a long-lasting roof with a long-lasting solar product, versus having to put it on a shingle and take the solar off, replace the shingle. So yeah, I think we'll see a lot more growth in the solar side with metal roofing, too.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

It's really interesting, last week we had a coffee conversation and it was about solar. And Prologis, who's one of the largest building owners in the world, was on there, and they are going to be net zero by 2040. So, every building is going to have solar and a number of those buildings have low slope or steep slope with metal, they're obviously flat, and that is driving the market. Last week they said, "When we put on a solar array, we want a roof that's going to last as long as the solar array." So, it's being driven from a lot of different directions.

 

Ken Gieseke:

It really is, yes.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Not to mention some incentives.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

I think the longevity piece, which has been touched on here quite a bit, is obviously... I mean, that is probably the driving factor in why you want to choose a metal roof. There's another element, too, though, that shouldn't be overlooked and that's the aesthetic. So, when a homeowner, us-

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Mm-hmm. Yes.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

I'm including you in this, John. When we all look at our home, you see three elements. You see the front of the house, you see landscaping, and you see the roof. And as a homeowner, the typical approach to that is, "I can alter the landscaping, I can alter the front of the house, painting it different, but the roof is something I have to deal with." Well, metal that's no longer the case because metal is an aesthetic benefit to the homeowner. Why? Because we have different metal roofing profiles. We have color. I don't know if I mentioned color yet. So, we have-

 

Ken Gieseke:

Does Sherwin-William do color?

 

Mark D Macdonald:

Sherwin-Williams does color, which is amazing.

 

John Sheridan:

Maybe once or twice. Yeah, maybe once or twice.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Maybe even a color of the year, all kinds of things. Yeah.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

So, I think that's something that we're all working towards, we're leveraging, and our manufacturers are all over it with different roofing profile options, different hugely diverse color palettes, and that's exciting for homeowners. In addition to the longevity, we have to continue to serve that customer need.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Right. And one of the things that we're seeing out there, too, and this has been a long time. This isn't anything new, but there are different profiles. A lot of people think just standing seam, but there's tiles, there are all different types of profiles. And John, you've been a big proponent for contractors, start with some of the shingles and some of the tiles that are out there installing.

 

John Sheridan:

There was a time when metal and shingles were night and day. Metal was way more expensive than shingles, but over time metal is caught up. So, if you factor in lifecycle costing, metal is killing shingles right now. You add to that the solar ability, the Keller options.

 

Ken Gieseke:

You owe him a dollar for that one.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

I do. I do.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Oh, no. Different color options. and-

 

John Sheridan:

Choices, different choices, different profiles. You have so many different profiles with metal than you do with shingles, so all of that factors into a long-term multi-use roof.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

It does, it does. And we have the perfect combination here. So, we have the machines for contractors to form their own and you have all different types. I know we just heard about the board and bat profile coming out, and then we have where you can get it right from McElroy, you can get the tiles, standing seam, everything. So, I would love to hear what you're hearing from the contractors on all of these options.

 

Ken Gieseke:

There's one more thing. I mean, our coil goes through his machines, too.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yes, there you go.

 

Ken Gieseke:

So, customers buy his machines and buy our coil, so we have that, too. I'd go back to one thing that John said real quick, too, about the different varieties. I mean, there are slate products right now, metal tiles that simulate-

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Slate.

 

Ken Gieseke:

... slate and you can stand at a curb and you don't know it's not slate.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Wow.

 

Ken Gieseke:

I mean, they're that good, and cedar and stuff, too. So, metal can simulate other products, it's fantastic.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yeah, and it's grown, those opportunities.

 

Ken Gieseke:

Big time.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yeah.

 

Terry McGuire:

Yeah, the textured product and the graining product, it's amazing and it looks... It's not tacky, it's not what you expect like a Brady Bunch time frame, or when you remember old paneling in your house. It's an amazing look, and as a matter of fact, the coil that we're running at the show is a wood grain pattern and it's an amazing look.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

That's cool. So, as a lot of contractors are coming to the show, I just want to kind of follow up on that point, to see a lot of this new stuff and that's what I keep hearing. "We want to go in. We want to see what the new colors are. We want to see what the new patterns are. We want to see that wood grain." You're going to have some people go in there now on that. Really, this can only grow. I mean, continuing to be... Because metal, you can do anything with it, right?

 

Ken Gieseke:

Yep.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Go ahead.

 

Ken Gieseke:

There's a whole lot of varieties. That's what's great about metal is, if you're a homeowner, there is a metal product that will suit your needs based on what you want to see. If you want to see a vertical seam, like a standing seam, we have that. If you want to see a shake or a shingle, slate, metal has it.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

I saw... So, I was just at the Slate Association meeting, but they were showing all of what they're doing with metal, and all the forming, how they're putting all that together. It is. It's beautiful and it's historic. I don't know. But let's talk a little bit, since we're talking about all these great things and everybody's out there going, "We want that," let's talk about one of the big elephants that is always in the middle of everybody's discussion, and that's been over the last year or so, the supply chain and material shortages. What are you seeing with that loosening a little bit, getting a little better, but what are some of the things that the contractors should also be aware of going into 2023? And we'll start with you, Terry.

 

Terry McGuire:

Yeah. I can speak to the manufacturing of the machinery here and the shortages that we have incurred, which would be mostly, we have seen a loosening of the supply chain and things are getting better and lead times are coming down, and even some prices are coming down. But we are still struggling with what you're still seeing in the news. Electrical components, HMIs, and the hydraulics are difficult for us to come by, though we've brought our lead time down probably down to about nine weeks on an SSQ panel machine now.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Oh, nice. Yeah.

 

Terry McGuire:

So, we are seeing that that is starting to become an easier place for us to find the products that it takes to make the machines.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

And one of the things, too, is we're going into winter, so isn't this kind of one of the times that people are starting to look at upgrades and changing?

 

Terry McGuire:

Yeah. So, right now we have the 179 tax benefits, so there's a lot of people saying, "Hey, I need my machine before the end of the year." So, if you're trying to do that, we have some slots available but you better take them quick. So, we do have that going on. Also for us, I would've thought coming from outside that the busy time would've been summer and that everyone would be buying machines in the summer. Well, we had a cyclically... Seasonal is slow for us in the summer in the machine part of this, and when October hit it was like someone opened up a tidal wave on us, and the orders are going crazy and our lead times are starting to go out again. So, it was very interesting to me when people decide to buy their machines, when they don't buy their machines. So, obviously they're working on roofs in the summertime and they don't have any time to talk to me. I've learned that now.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

That's pretty much it.

 

Terry McGuire:

I was surprised because I thought, "No one works on roofs in the middle of the winter." So, that's kind of my take on that.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

That's why we never have a break anymore.

 

Terry McGuire:

Yes, it's 365.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

There's never a break. What are you seeing with the supply chain?

 

Ken Gieseke:

I'm happy to say that it's much, much better.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Good.

 

Ken Gieseke:

Yeah, we're in good shape with our steel and the paint supplies. We had did have some issues, not with paint but just whole supply chain, especially on the accessory side. A lot of stuff coming from Asia that we're struggling with, but there's still some... Once in a while, we still have some trouble with parts, but by and large I'm happy to say that things are pretty normal.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Oh, that's such a nice word. Normal.

 

Ken Gieseke:

That is good.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Normal.

 

Terry McGuire:

The prices are coming down. They're actually starting to come down.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yeah, the prices are-

 

Terry McGuire:

I shouldn't say that, he'll be like, "Don't say that."

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

I think everybody wants to see that a little bit. What are you seeing on supply chain from...? And not just on metal, but across the board with Sherwin-Williams. Your fingers are in a lot of different buckets.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

So, I think just Sherwin-Williams is not immune to all the incredibly challenging issues with various components and raw materials across the board. Very challenging over the last couple years. I really think that your exposure to that is symmetrical with your position in that raw material supply chain. So, in other words, if you're us and you have a very big footprint with these raw material suppliers, you're in a much better position than someone who has a much smaller scope. So, I think what we saw was that people who had much smaller positions in some of these raw material places just got hammered, and it's still very difficult and challenging for a lot of folks. We benefit from scale, and so because of our scale, I think we were able to weather the storm. But it's the work of hundreds and hundreds of people across our company that put in the hours to keep it going.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Keep the supply... Keep it going through. John, you work with a lot of manufacturers out of Europe, and I know-

 

John Sheridan:

It was bad for a while. So, primarily I deal with tools and-

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Oh, yeah. And tools.

 

John Sheridan:

... most of my tools are European.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

That's right.

 

John Sheridan:

So, they slowed down. It was a good eight to 12 weeks for the longest time, and now that's finally down to eight to six weeks.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Eight to six weeks.

 

John Sheridan:

But still, the problem was not only price, but shipping. The cost of a container went way up, so because of that, they tried to pile stuff into containers. So, they would have the stuff, but they wouldn't ship it because they didn't have a full container.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Because they wanted to get it all full. Yeah,.

 

John Sheridan:

But that's finally starting to settle down a little bit.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

So, on the tools front, contractors are able to pretty much get what they need at this point?

 

John Sheridan:

Yes. Yeah. And they're stocked in the US, so it's not like if somebody orders a tool, they have to wait 12 weeks. It ships from the US.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

We're seeing a lot more come back into the US.

 

John Sheridan:

Yeah.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

I mean, it's going to continue down that road. Okay, I want to switch a little bit over to technology because one of the things I've been so impressed with with METALCON over the years is watching the amount of technology that has come through the machines, through the different software. EagleView, I was involved with and we were always here working on that. And so, that, to me, has really changed the face. When you think about, you can... And I know sometimes this isn't a perfect thing, but you can go from a drone to a machine and have product coming out that is beautiful. You talked about your controller. What are you seeing with the use of technology, and how is that changing the industry overall?

 

Terry McGuire:

The technology part of it, we have a group that is running our machines that's embracing it, but there's still some complication in bringing it into actual play. Our controller is built so that it can take in some of the EagleView, it can take that information into the controller and the parts come out, like you said, miraculously.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Right. I think it's magic, honestly.

 

Terry McGuire:

But the key to it, for us, is to make it user friendly. We don't want that interface to be so complicated that someone can't easily learn how to use it and train other people. And for us, really, technology is safety.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Oh, yeah.

 

Terry McGuire:

So, less about exactly how that piece of panel comes out than it is to, how do we make that machine safe? And how do we make the operation of that machine safe? And how do we make sure that people can't make mistakes and get themselves hurt? And so, we've done a lot with that part of technology within our machines.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

That's key.

 

Terry McGuire:

I mean, it's really the most important thing. We want everybody to go home at the end of the day.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Right, with all their fingers.

 

Terry McGuire:

And our machines... Machines by their nature can hurt somebody. We spend a lot of time on training and then we build the machine to make sure that it knows when it shouldn't be doing certain functions that could hurt people.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yeah. So, Ken, as we acknowledged earlier, we've been in this industry for quite a while. Can you believe the changes in technology that have happened just...? I mean, when I think about when I first started with EagleView, I was laughed off the job site. "You're never going to measure this roof from the sky." And now, it's day to day. What have you seen, and what are you seeing with your contractors and your products that's really making a difference for them?

 

Ken Gieseke:

I'm going to defer to Mark in a moment or so. I want to recognize what Sherwin-Williams has done, recognizing the potential for contractors to get involved in this business, and done a lot of things with technology to make it that easy button again. When somebody wants a shingle roof, they order 40 shingles, they get shipped to the job site, and put shingles on. Metal's more complicated. Every job is custom, and what Sherwin-Williams has done through MetalVue is make it easier for that contractor. So, it's less intimidating to get involved in metal, and so I'll let Mark talk about that in a moment. To answer your question, contractor are always looking for ways to make things easier for them, and we're seeing that a lot with our customers.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yeah. I'm seeing it all. I mean, just the embrace and then the people who are not embracing it, and it's really leaving their companies behind. It's causing that a definite differentiation. So, I... Oh, go ahead.

 

Ken Gieseke:

If I could just [inaudible 00:30:39] a 10,000 foot view just for... I mean, technology. You hate to think that the Internet's technology these days. Maybe I'm dating myself, but the consumer, the homeowner, is so much more educated today.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yes.

 

Ken Gieseke:

I talked to a customer the other day, a homeowner the other day, that bought material through a distributor and I'm amazed at how much he knew just from our website. He was watching our videos, he was reading eBooks, and so technology has also helped us in that regard, too, versus just having company literature. Now, there's... At fingertips, people can learn a lot.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

We see the research on Metal Coffee Shop every day. We see it on Ask A Roofer, homeowners coming in, they're asking good questions, they want to be aware of it, and it has... I mean, I think for some contractors, maybe it hasn't made it easier, but for really good contractors it's made their job a lot easier because of that education. I only have two words for you.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

And they are?

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Tech stack.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

Oh, my God. I was waiting for her to use that in a sentence, everyone. She's done it. Thank you.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Talk to us about the tech stack, Mark.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

Well, I think to go to give credit where credit's due, there wouldn't be no Sherwin-Williams tech stack without Heidi, because you are the one who I met at NRCA, so I want to thank you personally.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

It's been fun. It's been a ride.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

It's been a ride. Without you, basically I wouldn't have a program, basically. So, thank you for that. But ultimately, let me start off at the beginning with, the heart and soul of growing our market is the sweat and tears and blood from the manufacturers, and the hard work that their commercial reps are doing to grow the market. That's full stop. And also John. So, I think it starts with having a realization that the technology's only relevant when you have the work. You got to put the work in first, right? That's building the relationships, building the trust, then the technology comes. So, as we do that, you have to look at compressing the workflow, and I want to thank EagleView, shout out for that one. They're out there somewhere.

But just looking and saying, "Okay, well, every contractor has to deal with, let's say, sales," and that starts with homeowner lead generation. So, using sophisticated software to get to the homeowner. Without the lead gen, there's no business, right?

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Right. Yeah.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

To sell to the homeowner, you have to have defined sales processes, and we at Sherwin-Williams have been really lucky to get to work with two of the most important sales training organizations in the United States, and that's Grosso University and the Certified Contractors Network.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yes.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

And those two groups are amazing, incredible. Shout out to both of you guys. Thank you. And we are blessed to have them be a part of our manufacturer's workflow now, because those contractors have a place to go to learn how to sell to that homeowner that they got the lead for.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Right. Yes.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

It's all one thing. And what's interesting, Ken brought up just maybe accidentally, but I'm going to build on it. So, things like visualization. That traditionally hasn't been that important, but now that we have some more sophisticated software solutions, now that we're building out relationships with new customers who sell directly to homeowners, those visualization tools are incredibly important.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

And homeowners, they use them all the time.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

Absolutely.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yeah.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

Absolutely. And so, I think that's part and parcel of this whole thing. And then when we talk about software, we've alluded to this magical process that gets from a drone, or dare I say, an airplane-

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

An airplane, yes.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

... into a machine. But that whole software piece, making it easy to bid to a homeowner. So, the homeowner's going to want an accurate estimate upfront, and then more important than that, do you have confidence that when you get to the material product order, the final product, that that's also going to line up with the estimate? And that can be challenging to do unless you have a really good, what were the two words? Text tech.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Tech stack.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

That's right. We've been very fortunate to be partnered with EagleView and a company named Roofing Works and a company named SmartBuild, and we have third-party software development with Provato Group to bring forward this really awesome integrated solution that can do what you want. Whether it's typing an address and hitting enter, getting a blueprint, a plan, a drawing, a picture of a blueprint, plan, or drawing, or a raw XML file, you've got to have the ability to service that contractor any way they want. It's just data. Get the data, jam it in to a common material database.

So, when you put all that stuff together, you have to have common platforms that they can access it. So, we keep talking about John who's going to do all this physical... Or is doing physical training, but as important to that is training that's hosted on a common platform with Certified Contractors Network, with Grosso University, to bring that training so that if there's not people there, they can do some remote training. And that's incredibly important that we provide, so that's where the digital piece comes into play.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yes. And I have to say, one of the things that we have just been so fortunate about is when you take all of that that you just talked about, we're able to bring all of that onto Metal Coffee Shop. And that has really been an opportunity to share that with all the contractors, to be able to get it out there, to be able to start talking about it. How do you put that tech stack together? How do you get the machinery? How do you get the materials? How do you get the coil? I think that's part of technology where this community... That we haven't had in the past.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

John, you look like you were going to say something. Go.

 

John Sheridan:

Well, technology, to me, has been the advances in social media. So, the gap, to me, is qualified people being put in a position-

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

John?

 

John Sheridan:

... where they can do the installation. So, getting the qualified people, training those qualified people, introducing them to contractors, and then putting Sherwin-Williams and McElroy in a position where they have people in the field that can actually do the work. So, you would be surprised at the number of people that want to be trained.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Right.

 

John Sheridan:

They're just dying to get into a training program, whether that's physical hands on training, or whether it's video content or live streaming like this, demand is there. We just have to narrow that gap.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

And you see this in your Facebook groups.

 

John Sheridan:

Absolutely.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yeah.

 

John Sheridan:

Absolutely.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

It's powerful.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

The beauty of the installation training is that our entire industry has really put a lot of energy into it. So, when you look at the top down, so when we talk John, we're talking tactical. We're talking training on flashing in a building somewhere, and a manufacturer or a contractor, and that's what John's doing. But above that, we have the MCA, who's put a tremendous amount of energy into documenting and formalizing installation training and rolling it out, and then a partnership that took a long time and a lot of hard work from a lot of people to get that partnership from the MCA over to the NRCA-

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yes.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

... and get that into pro-cert.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yeah, brand new program.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

So, we have shout out to the NRCA, pro-certification program up and running. We have contractors that are trained, which is incredible for our industry. So, we have this beautiful synergy between... Yes, I said synergy in a sentence. So, you have this beautiful synergy between pro-certification at the NRCA level, which is just the largest organization in the country to professionalize contractors. We have the MCA, the largest organization for metal around that, the MRA supporting that, which we've talked a lot... They're doing a phenomenal job with homeowner awareness, and then finally, tip of the spear, John.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yeah. Getting people into the industry.

 

John Sheridan:

So, the NRCA program is a great program, but it's a one-system program. Where people like McElroy and MetalVue come into play is that there are... McElroy has I don't know how many different systems. Every one of those systems needs to be taught to somebody. So, you can get a general good working knowledge from the NRCA programs and get people pro-certified, but there has to be an ongoing education thing through manufacturers and through specific manufacturer systems.

 

Ken Gieseke:

That's true.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

And the most important part of that is that we now have that solution for you. So, if you're out there looking for it, call us.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yeah.

 

Ken Gieseke:

I'm sorry you have somebody that's so in a shell, they just won't talk.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

I know. So shell. Yeah, I know. It's pretty funny. One more time, I'm going to switch the topic because I think it's always important that we have this conversation, and that's going to be on the economy because everybody's like, "2023, what's going to happen? Oh, my goodness." But yet, we're hearing every single day how much business there is and everything that's going on. So, Terry, I want to start with you, just talking about what you're seeing. You already said some of the pricing's coming down, inflation's kind of calming a tad, we all hope. But the interest rate, we have some higher interest rates. What are you seeing out there for contractors and for the industry overall?

 

Terry McGuire:

Well, you keep asking me first. I've noticed that.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

I know. Yeah.

 

Terry McGuire:

From a manufacturing side and selling these machines, I kind of choose at this point to... I don't participate.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yes.

 

Terry McGuire:

And so, my thought is that we are just going to be laser focused on our product. We're going to be laser focused on the quality of that product. I think if you take care of your customer, that what's going on around you impacts you less. And so, really, for now we are just trying to focus on what we do. What else can we bring to market? What's needed? What do people want? What's it like to be running our machine in the cold? What are we missing? What's it like to be running our machine when you're sweating on it? We're trying to just focus on what we control and not participate in what the media is saying. And that's just the truth for NTM. That's our philosophy going forward, and we're going to stay not participating as long as absolutely possible.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yeah, I love that. I love that. I've been hearing that more and more because we are busy, and the contractors are busy and there's a lot of home equity out there. There's a lot of things happening. What are you seeing, Ken?

 

Ken Gieseke:

I like that answer, by the way. That was very good.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yeah, me too.

 

Ken Gieseke:

There's so much negative messaging on the news. You got the economy and the interest rates, and what's the Fed going to do? And it's been amazing to me how resilient the construction industry has been. Our big benchmark is our customers, and I've been traveling recently talking to customers, and even here on the METALCON floor today, backlog is still out there, guys are still busy. And I say, "Okay, what about future work? What are you seeing as far as jobs coming for bid?" And that's staying strong, too. So, it's really crazy listening to the media, but yet hearing in real life what's happening, and people are still busy. So, we're still feeling good right now and our customers are feeling good.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

I'm kind of like, "I don't even want to listen anymore," because I'd just rather hear what is actually happening out in the field. But one thing, Mark, that I want to kind of... On that, and if you have other comments, which I'm sure you do, but if-

 

Terry McGuire:

Have you asked that question?

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

I know.

 

Terry McGuire:

I can't believe you even asked that question.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

I know, I know. But one of the things that we just had, we had Angie on, their chief economist, and they talked about the huge amount of home equity, the dollars that are out there. So, from the sales side that you were just talking about and contractors working through that, working with CCN and working with Grosso, and how to work in this economy? How do you work with talking about the equity about higher interest rates and all of that?

 

Mark D Macdonald:

So, whether or not there's a downturn or not, and the way I view our outlook at the Sherwin-Williams for residential re-roof, it's independent of the economy. Because what do we have to do? We have to do two things. We have to create new incremental demand and we have to service that demand with labor independent of anything else. So, if there's not a downturn, we're going to create incremental demand and create new labor. If there's a downturn, we're going to create incremental demand and service with labor. So, really, if there were... There's a lot of talk in the news. I'm not an economist, I can't tell you what's going to happen. The short answer is, "I don't care because we have to do the same thing." We have to go get new incremental demand, we have to service it with labor. So, our plan is to flow that value to our manufacturers so they can capitalize on whatever the opportunity is, which is creating incremental demand, servicing it with new labor. Thank you, John Sheridan.

 

Ken Gieseke:

One more point on that though, too, is if there is a downturn, if you need a new roof, you need a new roof, right?

 

Mark D Macdonald:

Correct. That's right.

 

Ken Gieseke:

You can only put it off so long.

 

John Sheridan:

Rain and snow still fall and roofs still wear out.

 

Terry McGuire:

And if they have equity in their house or they have the funds, they want to do it right.

 

Ken Gieseke:

Exactly.

 

Terry McGuire:

And metal is right. It lasts a long time, it's beautiful, as we've noted. There's lots of colors, as we noted. Lots of profiles.

 

John Sheridan:

Even if there's a downturn in new construction-

 

Terry McGuire:

There's all the re-roof going on.

 

John Sheridan:

You're still going to have that core element that leads to business.

 

Ken Gieseke:

Absolutely.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yeah, because we are hearing that a little bit about new construction, but I've also been hearing that some folks say, "Nope." They're still going because people need homes and they need places to live, and there's a home-

 

Terry McGuire:

There's a home shortage and there's a demand for them, and as long as that goes on, they're going to be building houses.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Right.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

The beauty of the residential re-roof market is that if you add up the squares, which Ken and I have, we add literally all of them.

 

Ken Gieseke:

I just give numbers and Mark puts them in a calculator and that's it.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

That's right. So, if you add up all the squares of all the other home segments, new home, commercial new, commercial re, ag, industrial-

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Multi-family, yeah.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

If you add all those up, it's a fraction of residential re-roof, and that's not going to change in my lifetime. So, really, we have to continue to service those markets, every one of them equally, and then we also have to create these opportunities in the re-roof, which we are. And that's how you weather the storm.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

And speaking of storms, we still keep getting storms. Hurricane Ian, huge amount of re-roof is going to... Although I have to say, if you watch a lot of the pictures, there's a lot of metal roofs that are stayed no problem. So, hurricanes-

 

John Sheridan:

it was amazing.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yeah.

 

John Sheridan:

I hate to look at a disaster that way, but-

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

I know. I'm sorry, yeah.

 

John Sheridan:

... that was the first thing I noticed. A lot of metal roofs stayed on down there.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

When you have these horrific events across the country, because it's not just in the Southeast... Up where we live, we've had-

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Wildfires?

 

Mark D Macdonald:

... some horrific wildfires over the last two to three years, these seasons that, luckily, we didn't have that bad of a one this year. But you're talking widespread destruction of residential structures across... Whether it's fire, whether it's wind, whether it's a number of other different weather events, and what we're seeing consistently over time and the data that we're pulling in the Metal Roofing Alliance is that metal weathers a storm every time. So, that's part of our growth, that's part of what homeowners are seeing over time. They see it just like you and I do on the news. They see, "Oh, look. That neighborhood has nothing but metal roofs left," and there's a reason for that. So, that's another thing. We just need to listen to that homeowner and service that customer, and that's what we're doing.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

And take care of them for the long stretch. Yeah. That's what really matters. Okay. I want to, and I know we've already talked about this a little bit, but I kind of want to end... We're coming up to the top of the hour here. I want to end with just the importance of the associations. And I know we talked about that. The Metal Construction Association, the Metal Roofing Association, METALCON, not an association, but still such an important part of our industry and what we're doing. So, just because I started with you before, Terry-

 

Terry McGuire:

You're going to start-

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

I'm going to actually start with Mark, I think.

 

Ken Gieseke:

Well, the rest of us are done, then.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

I know.

 

Terry McGuire:

Yeah. You said we were at the top of the hour.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

[inaudible 00:46:42]. I know.

 

John Sheridan:

Bye-bye, Mike.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

No, but Mark, that's where we met. We met with at the NRCA show, National Roofing Contractor Association. I met John at the Montana show. We've been at a million shows together. We've met our first time at Western States. The associations that are out there and what they're doing for the industry is so important. Kind of share just some of your thoughts on that.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

I think one of the most important things that Sherwin-Williams does is participates in these industry associations. The reason that they're so important is because that's where you gain consensus on how to approach different pieces of the market, different needs. Without that consensus, we're sitting here talking about quality metal roofing here at this show. That's an incredibly important topic for our industry and for the customers that we serve. And without industry associations, that collaboration, that consensus can't really be achieved, or at least it's much, much more difficult. So, in my experience, which is pretty limited... I mean, I'm relatively new to the industry at 10 years, which is, in this industry, is pretty new. Right, John?

 

John Sheridan:

Yes.

 

Terry McGuire:

Okay, so I got you beat.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

Yes, yes. So, I think in my limited experience, I would say that from what I have seen, we would not have had the insight that we've gained into how to better serve our customers without the NRCA, without the MCA, without the MRA, without Frame Builders. These are all-

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

The Frame Builders, yes.

 

Mark D Macdonald:

These are incredibly important places where we hear, we're able to siphon through the noise and talk about what some of the real concerns are and try to, where it's appropriate, address them as an industry. And I think they work phenomenally well, and I think they're great opportunities just to network and learn more about what's going on. And I'll say and I'll add to that, things that are even maybe more organic, like Metal Coffee Shop, places where we can network. It's the collaboration and networking that is really what's moving our industry forward. So, that's my final answer.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

It's good-

 

Terry McGuire:

You're not going to ask anybody to follow that up, are you?

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

No, no. Well, maybe a little bit. Maybe a little bit. Because I was going to say, all of these associations, they all are on the Metal Coffee Shop because they are the heartbeat. They are the heartbeat of it, and you've been involved in a lot of them. So, I know you're going to follow Mark here, but give me some of your thoughts, Ken.

 

Ken Gieseke:

I think Mark said that very well. At McElroy Metal, we believe in associations. We're a charter member of the MCA. In fact, Tim McElroy was one of the founding members of MCA, and we've been a charter member of MRA, Metal Roofing Alliance. So, we really believe in the importance of it for reasons Mark said. Get that unified voice out there, and if there's any other manufacturers out there are watching, I encourage them to get on board, too, because there's an old saying, a rising tide rises all ships. And a lot of work of the associations are making it better for the industry. The Metal Roofing Alliance, again, I think a lot of the market share growth is due to MRA efforts, and the whole industry up and down the supply chains, benefits from that. And that's the value of an association.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

The professionalism that comes from it just continues to rise the industry. So, Terry, thoughts?

 

Terry McGuire:

I'm just going to be like, "They know a lot more about that than I do, and I think they've made some great answers." We're certainly involved.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yes.

 

Terry McGuire:

We're involved with you and we like that, but we're also involved with others and we will continue to be. And I agree that there's strength in numbers.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

I love it. I love it. Well, gentlemen... John, any last thoughts?

 

John Sheridan:

Just from a little fish, bottom-of-the-food-chain kind of viewpoint-

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

I thought were the point of the spear.

 

John Sheridan:

I'm also the bottom of the totem pole. But it gives us an ability to network in an environment where we have like people involved.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Bringing it all together.

 

John Sheridan:

That's all I got.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

I love it. Well, it's a lot. And I want to thank all of you. Thank you so much, Terry, Ken, Mark. John. Thank you for being on Coffee Conversations today. This has been great. It's live on YouTube, it's going to be on demand, and I really want to thank Terry again for being a sponsor of the [inaudible 00:50:48] Stage.

 

Terry McGuire:

We're happy to do it and happy to be here. Maybe next time I'll do a little bit better, I promise.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Oh, I think you were great. And don't think you're going to get out of it anytime soon.

 

John Sheridan:

Big hug when we get offline.

 

Heidi Ellsworth:

Yeah. You guys are all in the web now. That's how it works. And I want to thank you, too, for Metal Coffee Shop and Sherwin-Williams being the sponsor. There's just so many great things happening here. I've learned a lot. I hope you all have, too. We're going to be coming back to you with a lot of live interviews today, as you heard from a lot of people that are going to be coming this direction. So, thank you, please go to metalcoffeeshop.com and rooferscoffeeshop.com, check out all of our Coffee Conversations and watch for this one in the next 24 hours to be on demand. Share it, get it on your favorite podcast channel. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.