Bridging the Gap Between Contractors and Consultants - PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with  Ron Harriman of Benchmark. You can read the interview below or listen to the podcast. 

Intro: Welcome to Roofing Road Trips, the podcast that takes you on a thrilling journey across the world of roofing. From fascinating interviews with roofing experts to on-the-road adventures, we'll uncover the stories, innovations and challenges that shape the rooftops over our heads. So fasten your seat belts and join us as we embark on this exciting roofing road trip.

Heidi Ellsworth: Hello and welcome to another Roofing Road trips from Roofer's Coffee Shop. My name is Heidi Ellsworth, and I am so excited today. I get the privilege of being here with a dear friend and a kind of icon in the roofing industry, I have to say. And that is Ron Harriman with Benchmark. Ron, I've watched your work over the years. I am so honored to have you here today.

Ron Harriman: Well, I'm glad to be here, but I don't know what icon you're talking about. You got the wrong podcast. You must be in the wrong meeting.

Heidi Ellsworth: No, I don't think so, especially once we start talking today, and I am so excited about this topic because it's something I've been somewhat passionate about my whole career, is really how do we bridge that gap between roofing contractors and roofing consultants. There's so much we can do together, but yet sometimes it tends to get a little bit volatile, sometimes out there. Contentious is probably a better word. So let's start first with your introduction. So if you could introduce yourself and tell them about Benchmark and tell everybody, just let them get to know you. That'd be great.

Ron Harriman: Yeah, yeah. Well, I'll start with introducing Benchmark and then I'll tell you a little bit about my story. But Benchmark was incorporated as a roof consulting firm in 1983. So we're just coming up on our 41st anniversary. So coincidentally, RCI, the predecessor of IIBEC, was also incorporated in 1983. That wasn't necessarily the beginnings of the roofing industry, but so Benchmark was kind of early in that kind of development of an industry basically. So Benchmark, we're a roof and pavement consulting firm. We've been doing this roofing thing for 41 years. And in some respects, a lot of what we do today is very similar to what we did in 1983. We help clients with assessment of their existing roofs and many of our clients have multiple facilities, so it's becoming a bit more of an information management consulting than it used to be.

It be just a pure roof consulting. Now we're seeing technology come into play. So that's a really exciting development in the industry, I believe. But it's still the expertise we provide is to help clients understand where they're at with their roof, what should they be doing about it, what might it cost and way alternatives kind of make business decisions. We also assist them with projects, putting together concepts, plans and specifications, qualifying roofing contractors to bid on projects or in some cases just negotiating contracts with roofing contractors.

Typically, for large roof replacements, it's our sweet spot. We certainly do get involved with some new construction, but most of our work is on existing buildings. And so I think that's a more complex environment and it is probably a little bit more suited to our expertise. And then we provide construction phase services. Well, we'll put a consultant on a project to help basically help get the thing done successfully on time, on budget, safely, all of those kinds of things, following the specs.

So those are our services, and we've been very fortunate over the years to develop a clientele that, so a great number of our clients are repeat business type clients, so we're relationship driven. So really, I won't give you all of our core values and background along those lines, but if you just picture two things that we emphasize and that's relationships and then proven results. And so, relationship starts with our insider company and we like to be a tight-knit team and then we like to take that out into the market with our roofing contractors, with roofing manufacturers in the roofing industry. It is just kind of hard to turn that on or off based on your audience. So I think we really want to get engaged with relationship opportunities. And then also we're big on proven results. If you've been doing this as long as we have. And when I think back to the 1980s, I have to admit we didn't have it all figured out, okay.

Heidi Ellsworth: Well, it's when it all started, I mean, really on the consultant side of it.

Ron Harriman: And it was a little bit of the wild west, and we made mistakes. We've got scars. I had to wear long sleeve shirts today just to make sure and cover that up. But we made some mistakes, and I think it's a part of our wisdom is having learned the hard way. And so it's hard not to carry that with you. It'd be silly not to carry that with you.

Heidi Ellsworth: It's interesting, Ron, because I started in the roofing industry in the early '90s, and that was really when consultants, like you said, started in the '80s, but then we were really seeing a lot of consultants and we were working with them. And I have to say it was a lot different than I see today, and especially I think the roofing industry overall, the professionalism has grown substantially over the last decades. But I've seen that, especially with the roof consultants, just this really growth of professionalism and taking on the whole building envelope and just how they interact with the industry overall. I find it really interesting.

And I think when I look back at RCI, Roof Consultants Institute, I actually wrote for the magazine a couple times, and that was, I'm not a technical writer. So that was a little challenging for me. And then you look at today, the organization, IIBEC, I mean, just wow, is grown so much and there's so much out there. But I would love, you kind of shared that history of the roofing consultants, but where do you see, let's talk about actually talk in the history too, but what has that relationship between the consultant and the contractor? How has that grown? Because it was pretty contentious back in the day.

Ron Harriman: Yeah, and I'll mix in a little bit of my story into that because I started in 1984 in the roofing industry for a roofing contractor. And so I started on the roof as a crewman. And you've heard me talk about that before. I'm very grateful for having that opportunity. And after being on the roof for a year, I then went into the office as a draftsman estimator and project manager. So some of my first experience engaging with a roofing consultant was as an estimator and project manager. So I was bidding projects. And then once we got awarded a project, then I was doing submittals. It's like I hated doing submittals.

Heidi Ellsworth: Yes, I know.

Ron Harriman: So, it's like I have so much empathy to both sides of the equation here because it's like, oh, really? Because in my normal course of doing a project, I perceived it as just being an extra step, and I wasn't necessarily connecting to the value of it. So when you think of the industry and the potential or the past of some contentious relationships, it was certainly there, and I was part of it. I was on the contracting side of the fence, and after I became, I spent some time as an estimator. I then moved into sales, and I really was trying crazy to sell direct to my clients, and I was not seeking opportunities that involved a consultant. In fact, I probably competed with that idea. So that's my background.

And I think I chose to, in preparation for today, I called Bill Good. It's like, okay, Bill, remind me of a few things. I want to make sure that I've got some of this down patted. But some of it even predates Bill because the roof consulting industry was probably already in place in the '70s and perhaps even before that. But some of the original idea of developing a professional association for roofing was actually at the request of the NRCA.

Heidi Ellsworth: That makes sense actually.

Ron Harriman: Shortly thereafter, it kind of broke down. I mean, it just didn't take off the way that people had originally envisioned. And it'd be impossible for me to dissect or do an autopsy on that, but it didn't work and that broke down. And so I think there's been various iterations at this. In fact, Bill recalls where it was the theme of an NRCA convention before they called it the IRE. And it's like, so we've been at this topic for a while.

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah, I've heard it all 30 years I've been here.

Ron Harriman: Yeah. And I guess I certainly I can't avoid the topic, but hopefully I bring enough respect for all parties that I can understand it. But I still think it's a little bit of a situation where we can rise above, we can figure out what are the issues that we're getting tripped up on. Because at the end of the day, they may not be that important or they could be impeding the growth, the development, the health of both entities and all entities.

So I think if we maybe approach it slightly differently than we ever have, and this is true, I actually don't just have a respect for both a roof consulting industry and the roofing contractor industry. I love them both. And so I want both to thrive because. It also, maybe it's a Bill Good metaphor here, but I remember Bill speaking, I don't know how many years ago it was, it had to be more than 20 years ago and he was talking about the growth of the Hispanic workforce. And at that time, the roofing industry was still resisting that idea. And Bill made a statement that those do this well will have a competitive advantage. And I thought he had some great suggestions about that, and that was so insightful, long before it really developed. And so I'm in the same position today, when it comes to us working together and collaborating as an industry. I believe, let's just insert that same philosophy. Those that do it well will have a competitive advantage.

Heidi Ellsworth: Yes. Well, okay, I want to go back to it because you said something that I just totally resonates, and that is talking about that actually the NRA was encouraging the roof consultants to start their own professional organization and get professional certifications going. And that resonates. That makes so much sense to me because of course, we want to have both national roofing contractors and the roof consultants working together and really having that respect across the board. So thinking about that and thinking about the certifications that have come out now, RRO, all of the things that RCI and IIBEC have done, I'm now watching contractors. And I know it's been going on for many years, but I was just talking to a young contractor who I saw at the IIBEC show and she's like, oh yeah, I'm getting all my certifications as a consultant because I want to understand it. I want to be able to support. And I think that switch has happened, where what the roof consultant community did to really bring education and certification to it has actually really made a difference for the roofing contractors. Talk a little bit about that.

Ron Harriman: Well, I think there's a lot there, Heidi. One, again, specifically when I say that the NRCA actually tried to stir this up. They brought this group of roofing consultants together in Chicago and developing a professional certification was part of that request. So the roofing industry was at that point, perceiving we have to have a professional avenue. And there was no labor shortage we have today, although it was still being talked about as a labor shortage. But creating professional avenues for career development, whether in the form of certifications or degrees or passing of exams, the PE equivalent. The RRC is kind of the equivalent of a professional engineer. So I'm a big believer in it. But here's the thing that I would maybe add a little bit of runnism to it. It's like I'm not really for it just for the sake of a bunch of letters behind a signature.

Heidi Ellsworth: Nice, year.

Ron Harriman: Part of what I'm after and what I love is that someone takes an exam, they study that material and they learn it in a way such that it's not just to pass the test. It is actually, because one of my absolute kind of fondest memories, when I think back 40 years ago when I was on the roofing crew and some of the guys that I was on the roof with are now leading companies. One of them's an operations director for a major roof manufacturer. One's a tech director for a roofing man. One's just down the road from me here. He runs an entire sheet metal shop. And so it's like having places to grow. But you know what it takes? It's taken people that got that certification, they approach roofing like it's a profession and they wanted to learn everything they could get their hands on, but not just to prove it to somebody else.

They wanted to learn it in such a way that they could teach it. And then some of these same people became inventors of new stuff. It's like, well, I mean, it's just an incredibly healthy track. And if we can stir up more people to fall in love with learning as well as fall in love with roofing, then I think we got something. And then it is kind of a flywheel, it perpetuates itself as opposed to needing to go out and replace a workforce on a very short cycle. No, we've got a developing workforce.

And so my involvement with the NRCA, I kind of backed into it in a non-traditional sense, and you've heard my confession on this before, but we're guilty. We were members of NRCA for many years. We just wrote the check, sent it to Chicago. We weren't involved. And it was through the Roofing Alliance that kind of pulled me in. And that emphasis on professionalism and developing a crop of roofing people that have an interest in roofing and even taking classes in roofing and getting certified in roofing. The Pro-certification program for crew people, it's not just for college graduates, it's for people coming from the trade.

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah, exactly.

Ron Harriman: I'm jacked about that.

Heidi Ellsworth: I am too. I am too. And when I really look at that, I mean, I was able this year to spend some time with Amy Peevey, who was the past president, the first woman president of IIBEC and she talked about taking the classes and the education and getting her certifications and just how much it meant to her. I mean, we're actually on a panel talking about the importance of professional certifications. And so I see that, and I see now contractors doing the same thing, and then obviously in RCA with their Pro-certification, which you've also been a huge supporter of to get more training out there.

So as you're kind of looking at this, I mean, it seems to be happening, Ron, just being at this most recent show. I saw a lot of contractors there, a lot of roofing contractors who are getting involved. But how can we encourage the collaboration, the continued improved collaboration between roofing consultants and roofing contractors? And before you answer, I have one thing to say. I did at the show have still have a couple of consultants and contractors who came by the booth who were both kind of grumbling about that contractor, that consultant. So I know there's still room to grow. How do we do that?

Ron Harriman: Yeah. Well, yeah. Even within my own company, we don't get it right all the time. And it's a constant conversation. It's coaching, it's development. It's like you get a spec written and it's kind of our attempt at perfection, and then a bunch of people show up. It's like, hey, this is a people business and people make mistakes. People carry grudges. It's like, ah, it's not just a formula. This is not just a quick fix algorithm to be written. So maybe if I go from a concept level or industry-wide level down to even more of a project level, just as an illustration or kind of place to discuss it where people could picture it. I think one of things that can happen, it takes the project off track or the relationships off track, is kind of lack of clarity, lack of clarity around roles and responsibilities.

But even backing up a bit from that, I think sometimes the arguments happen at a fairly tactical level. And so, we're starting the discussion sometimes at a tactical level and it's like, no, there's a couple of layers above that that we are missing. And when you miss them, you're in quicksand. I think you're really taking a chance to, the chances of you aligning when you start there are very poor. But what I'm talking about is like, okay, let's rise above the tactics, at least to start with. Let's think about, okay, what's our overall strategy to this project? And above that, what's the objective of the project? I mean, not a lengthy specification. I'm talking about what is the three sentence, one paragraph type objective for the project? If we start there.

I believe it is like, no, it's really important that we understand it and we believe in it. Most of the time, what we're here to do is to accomplish the client's bullseye. Not just hit the target, but hit the center of the target. And if we're going to do that, we have to have everybody united around that objective. And you got to rise above. You've got to have a calling that's a little bit higher than yourself. In this case, if we're going to work together to accomplish the client's goals, we need the client involved too. We need the manufacturer involved. Maybe we need the insurance company involved. Maybe we need a subcontractor involved. Maybe we need a safety professional involved. It's like, but don't start it with, are we going to do liquid flashings or pitch pans? Honestly, I got a job right now. It may never get on track ever again. And that's the argument.

Heidi Ellsworth: Really. Oh my gosh.

Ron Harriman: Versus liquid flashings. I mean, we are, it's like, oh, wow.

Heidi Ellsworth: This is a multimillion-dollar project.

Yeah. When you and I and Steve Little had our Coffee Conversations a couple months ago, great Coffee Conversations, everyone, you should go listen to it. But when we had that, the thing that struck me the most between the roofing contractor with K-Post, and the roofing sultan with Benchmark, and you and Steve talking was that at the very top, at the very tippy top of that pyramid that you're talking about was what is the best solutions for the customer? And you and Steve talked about that. That was the number one goal was success performance for the customer. And you're right, it seems like when you start there and then you go to the goals and you work your way down to the flashings, that makes so much sense to me. And you could really, in talking to Steve, we could both really hear it. He wanted to work extremely close with Benchmark for success because that meant success for K-Post.

Ron Harriman: Yeah. And it's very apparent to me, and maybe I'm kind of close to, my careers getting very short here, but I think it's allowing me to see some things more clearly than I ever have. And earlier in my career, I was kind of just out hustling and probably had blinders on, but it's like now I'm seeing it and there's just a real easy to see distinction.

And I'm going to say, you could just apply this to both the contractor and the consultant. It's like those that almost refuse to collaborate. And those that are like, okay, I understand we have to play, and they kind of put up with it. And then those that embrace it. Those that embrace it's like, and again, I'm not singling out the contract. I'm saying both of us. And when you go into it, when the say, Hey, I am not perfect. We know you're not perfect, but we got to figure out how to work together, get this thing accomplished. And I know because now we have a long track record of doing this, man, we can accomplish great things, difficult projects and get them done with very few issues. But even when issues come up, every one of them is an opportunity to engage and don't point at each other. We're going to point at the issue and then talk about the options to solve. And then that flywheel tends to work a little better.

Heidi Ellsworth: And the success for the ultimate end user, for the customer, the building owner. And I will say, I did have a conversation with a consultant who said, if that contractor would just do what I said and just do it, then everything would be fine. And I think that has been a change in this industry that maybe back in the '70s and '80s before a lot of the professionalism had come up, maybe there were some points in that. But in today's world, with the professionalism of the roofing contractors and the professionalism of the roofing consultants we're way past those days of just telling each other what to do. It really has to be that collaboration, like you said, because what I've seen, the ones who've embracing it, they're getting more business.

Ron Harriman: Yeah. And I think they're having a higher quality of life too, by the way.

Heidi Ellsworth: Yes. Not quite so contentious.

Ron Harriman: Yeah. You took me back in time to one of my associates, I'll admit. His approach at a pre-bid meeting was to say, and I think he'd look over his glasses kind of funny. And he'd say, well, gentlemen, the way it is written is the way it shall be. And it's like, really? And it's been a while since I wrote a spec, but I can tell you that when I would run a pre-bid meeting, I would say, ladies and gentlemen, this is my spec. It was my attempt at perfection, and I've never got one right yet.

Heidi Ellsworth: See, now all of a sudden everybody's like, okay, well let's do this together.

Ron Harriman: Yeah, yeah. We need each other. And I think it's a conversation. It's a healthy conversation. I give a lot of credit when it comes to the success of Benchmark to Kent Madison, who was my predecessor and the president of Benchmark. But he was really, really famous for, at a board level, he'd be talking to us all the time about the need to challenge one another and also encourage one another. And so he was just this really awesome blend of both of those things. He didn't back away from holding me accountable. But he was also, man, he had my back. He was encouraging me. So I like it when we get to a point in the conversation where we can sit down and say, "Hey, what's working? What's not working?" And that's just a milestone along the way. And we readjust.

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah. With the ultimate goal in mind. Success, everybody wins.

Ron Harriman: Yeah. And even that original bullseye that we established on the project, I think that's one of the things when I think of the consulting industry and Benchmark even particularly, I think it's a little bit off track or setting the project up on wobbly ground. When we think of the specification and the drawings, the addendums, all of these kind of. So it is like, okay, the contractor can see in the drawings what we want or how we want something done. If they read the specs, they know what we want done, but do they understand why we're doing it?

And do then even a deeper layer if we really want to get vulnerable, is talking about, well, even deeper was who are we? Who is the client? Because the client, it could be that the roofing specification grew out of their desire for sustainability. There's not desire for power production or energy efficiency or indoor air quality. It is like there's an ethic to a well-written specification. It's just not pulled off the shelf as some type of gold-plated roof design. No, it was designed specifically for reasons that don't even show up in the spec. And it's like if we expect success, I think we can do a better job of providing some of the, okay, why are we doing what we're doing? And because of, that's when you plant your flag in that, and you can stay aligned with that. That becomes true north. People buy into that. But if we keep them in the dark and they just know that, hey, we had liquid flashings, and you want to do a pitch pan, that becomes argumentative.

Heidi Ellsworth: Right. Well, and you're making me think too, how much things have changed in the fact of how involved the manufacturers are. So it's not just the consultant and the roofing contractor, but that building owner could have been talking to a manufacturer who has totally sold them on a certain type of system with solar without whatever it may be, green roof, whatever. So you're right. There's just so many different factors. And if you don't bring those in and the contractors just coming in and saying, "Oh, well, I'm certified with that manufacturer. I'll do it." But doesn't understand the why's and the how's. I think that's brilliant, Ron. That's so true. Because there's so many forces at work today for a building owner to determine the ROI of their roofing systems and what they need to do.

Ron Harriman: Yeah. And I just don't want to, at this stage in life, I don't want us just to be the police force.

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah, no.

Ron Harriman: It is like, no, we're actually here to do something. More than likely, that's difficult. But it is just all over Benchmark. I mean, we talk about it, talk about it and talk about it, talk about it. And you can never let out. If we're going to be strong, we have to do it together. And this is just another example of that.

Heidi Ellsworth: Yes, agreed. So I want to just point out, one of the things that I have where you and I got to know each other, where I've been just so impressed is your involvement with both the Roofing Alliance and NRCA and just really leaning in to the overall roofing with Roofing Alliance, but also into the contracting world with the NRCA. And now the NRCA has been just so great about one voice and bringing so many more people to the table and doing that. So when you look at that, and when I look at your involvement, and we could go for another hour here. But let's just talk a little bit about that, the importance of being involved and being at the table and not just sitting in your own little bubble.

Ron Harriman: Yeah, it's a regret of mine that I didn't do it 20 years sooner. But one of the things I think I'd like to take this opportunity to say, I don't think I've said it before, but my first Alliance meeting, I sat there for, it was three days, and I took half a notebook full of notes. But one of the most striking things to me from that experience was how welcomed I was.

Heidi Ellsworth: Yes.

Ron Harriman: I was the only consultant in the room, and I thought, this is maybe an awkward place for me to be, but it wasn't at all. So if I could encourage any consultant to plug into that community, I come home every single meeting from an NRCA meeting or an Alliance meeting, pretty much feeling that same way. It's so open, so interested in helping, so interested in raising the tide. And I see that community actually collaborating at a really high level.

Heidi Ellsworth: Yeah. Me too.

Ron Harriman: I don't think they missed a beat for me to sit at the table with them. So I'm very thankful for that. It was very kind of eye-opening and appreciated. I'm grateful for it. But I think it's an example that I think there is a greater good to be done here.

Heidi Ellsworth: Me too.

Ron Harriman: And we've all got to run great companies and we can't lose sight of that. But the time that we invest in that industry involvement, I think it benefits you back at your company level, probably 10 to one. And it opens your eyes. You eliminate blind spots, you get new ideas, you get new relationships. And I'll go to my grave saying that relationships pay. Relationships pay.

Heidi Ellsworth: Let me tell you. I know that one. That is so true. Okay. Speaking of relationships, last question, because I think this one is probably one of the most important. For roofing contractors out there who are listening to this podcast, if they are not already connected into meeting the roofing consultants in their local community, in their wherever they're doing business, if they haven't got to know those roofing consultants yet, how do they take that step to get to know them and start building the collaborations? What's your recommendation?

Ron Harriman: Well, yeah. I think relationships pay is a really good kind of segue or bridge into that topic. One of the things I would suggest is that if you don't have a project out to bid right now, that's the perfect time actually. Because once a project's on the line, everybody has to, tends to go into their own foxholes. So let's engage one another, not around a project or a client so much, but let's have coffee.

Tell me your story. I'll tell you mine. So it does take a little bit of that outreach. I think I'd encourage very slow approach to it to develop a trust. There's so much that we can do to help each other that it probably doesn't take more than one cup of coffee to figure out, oh, I can help you with that. I can help you with that. And it's like we have to recognize the space too, that okay, we have different and distinct roles. And depending on the kind of business model, it could be that you overlap a bit or maybe there's no overlap, but get real about that. And so I think it takes some honesty and vulnerability, transparency, willingness to help.

It likewise takes a little time and who isn't busy? But I'm pretty convinced that what you shine light on will ultimately grow. And it's just like a little bit of a client relationship. When you target customers, you have to realize and have confidence that it's a caution almost to our marketing and sales team. And I'll tell them, and it strikes them as odd every time I say it, but be careful where you plant your seeds, because that's where your crop's going to grow.

Heidi Ellsworth: Right. It's pretty obvious. Yeah.

Ron Harriman: But you're planting a seed with a consultant in your marketplace, and I think you got to start with the idea that I have to earn relationships. It won't just be given to me. And then I hope that consultant has the same attitude, that it'd be a shame to be in the same marketplace and not have a full understanding of what your capabilities are. Okay. Should I be notifying you of modified projects or you just metal roofing projects or your thermoplastic, what's your sweet spot? Where can I help you? Or where can I align you with projects that will help you be successful?

Heidi Ellsworth: Right. Well, I have to tell you, I have seen some great examples. I've seen you and Steve Little that was so great to watch that I am on the Western States board, and I had the honor of one night being at dinner with a roof consultant, a leading roof consultant out of the Sacramento area, and a leading roofing contractor out of the Sacramento area. I got to sit and listen to them talk and talk about projects and do exactly what you're saying. They collaborated. They had, they were like, did you hear about this? Have you heard about this way to do it? Or this product? And they met through Western States. And then I'm going to give one more example. The young lady who I told you was at IIBEC, amazing young lady out of Colorado who is running her own commercial roofing business, and she belongs to the local IIBEC Association, the regional council and she's involved that way.

So just like what you've done, I encourage everybody out there, whether you're a roofing consultant or a roofing contractor, get involved in your associations on both sides, both on the RCAs and on the IIBEC, because that's where I think these conversations begin, besides right here in this podcast of course, Ron.

Ron Harriman: Yeah, for sure. For sure. And the industry is vast. Sometimes it seems pretty small, but it is vast and you could never know everyone or know every product yourself. And I think the part of, I'm fairly certain, the most successful people in this industry have a humility about them where they recognize, I don't know it all and I never will. But it's like when you can exchange and get in a jam session, like what you're describing Heidi, that's like paid tuition. I don't care what that launch cost you.

Heidi Ellsworth: I know. I learned so much that night. Yeah. So, oh my gosh, Ron, thank you. Thank you.

Ron Harriman: You're welcome.

Heidi Ellsworth: This has been delightful. I love it. We're going to have to do it again. I know you have that retirement word out there, but we'll do this again before you, you never leave anyway. You never leave roofing. You can't do it.

Ron Harriman: I've heard that's true. We'll see. I'll probably flunk retirement, but I am going to give it a try.

Heidi Ellsworth: Okay. Maybe a couple days of fishing anyway.

Ron Harriman: Yeah. Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth: I love it. Thank you so much for being here today. I really, I can't tell you, this has just been awesome. Thank you.

Ron Harriman: Yeah, thank you. You do a great job, by the way.

Heidi Ellsworth: Thank you. And thank you all for listening. This is the stuff that not only helps your business, but you have to say it warms your heart. Please get involved with your local IIBEC, your local RCA, invite consultants to come to your RCA meetings. This is how we can bring this all together and deliver the best results for the end users, our customers that need that roofing protection. So also, be sure to check out all of our podcasts on Roofers Coffee Shop under the RLW Navigation, under Roofing Road trips or on your favorite podcast channel. Be sure to subscribe and set those notifications so you don't miss a single episode. We'll be seeing you next time on Roofing Road trips.

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