A Peek Over the Edge - PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of a live interview with Nick Musel and Hank Bonney of Mule-Hide. You can read the interview below, listen to the podcast or watch the video!

Heidi J Ellsworth: Hello and welcome to another RLW, Read Listen Watch, from RoofersCoffeeShop. My name is Heidi Ellsworth and we are here today to learn about edge metal and how important it is today in the performance of flat or low slope roofs and also with everything that's going on with the extreme weather out there. I'm so happy to have you today. Start out with a little bit of housekeeping. This is being recorded and it will be available within 24 hours for you to use to share, to really help your company for that next step, whether that's adding more edge metal, figuring out how it works or just continuing what you already have with some great information. Also, we do have a chat, speaking of a conversation, so we would love to have you. The chat is open. Be sure to let us know who you are, what your company is, what you do, commercial, residential and be sure to ask questions all the way through.

So let's get started. This is Edge Metal Advantages and it is being brought to you by our friends at Mule-Hide. And we have some wonderful guests here. And I would first like to introduce Nick Musel. Nick, welcome to the show.

Nick Musel: Good morning everyone. Nick Musel, technical field manager for Mule-Hide Products. Just a quick little bio about myself. I've been in the roofing industry for 22 years, started off as an installer. I've worked for two large manufacturers in my career, proudly now working for Mule-Hide Products. Started off as a field tech representative doing inspections, then worked as a design professional in interior here at Mule-Hide Products. Recently been promoted to technical field manager.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Excellent. Nick, thank you so much. I'm just so excited for this topic today. It's going to be great. And I also am proud to introduce Hank Bonney. And Hank, welcome to the show. Also, please tell us about yourself and a little bit about Mule-Hide.

Hank Bonney: Thanks, Heidi. Good morning everyone. I'm Hank Bonney, I'm the Mule-Hide territory manager for Mule-Hide Products. I've been in the business 38 years, cut my teeth in the fastening technical side, going out testing roof decks to make sure that it secured the roof systems. I also was on the distribution side for 17 and a half years, so I've dealt with just about every product from built-up to single-plies to modifieds, of course, incorporating a lot of metal. I'm responsible today, I've been with Mule-Hide for nine years, of those nine years I was a field technical inspector along with my sales roles. I train and certify contractors in the proper installation methods of our various roof systems. And I'm so glad to be here to be able to present you on metal edge.

Heidi J Ellsworth: I am so excited. Thank you both so much for being here and such a great company. Special thanks to Mule-Hide to bring this important topic to the industry. So as a reminder, I'm taking questions the entire time, so if you have questions, comments, let us know who you are. The chat is open and we want to hear from you as we go through. So gentlemen, let's get started.

First of all, let's talk about edge metal and why it's important, really the overall world of edge metal. So Nick, can you start us out?

Nick Musel: Sure. One of the key components of any low slope roofing design is how that membrane is attached along the prevailing edge of the building. Typically, what we find is that when we see catastrophic roof failures, it usually starts with the edge metal. So having a well-designed system, pre-manufactured pieces that have been tested in a laboratory, that have been bent and fabricated in a shop and delivered directly out to the roofing installers, what that does is that that helps protect and defend the entire roof system. And critically now with the more increased weather events that we're experiencing is that wind uplift, and wind in particular likes to attack the perimeters and corners of buildings, which is where your metal needs to be the strongest. So at the end of the day, that metal is really holding in place the entire roofing system.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Really when you're looking at that, you think about the extreme weather like we just mentioned earlier, and how important to be able to really get control of wind uplift, which if you have wind uplift then is water intrusion. So Hank, what are you seeing out in the field on... Just how important good edge metal done the proper way is important.

Hank Bonney: By having that manufactured and tested edge metal system, it just gives the security and peace of mind. And by having that secured at the edge, you don't have to worry about it blowing off and allowing that water to infiltrate that roof system just by certain criteria with some of the tests and mechanisms that they test to ensure that you are getting a good quality roof system.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah. It's really makes the whole thing. It's the part that you have to have to really make sure that it's going to work. As we're looking at that, I think really that wind uplift is so... That's really what it comes down to. So Hank, talk a little bit about understanding the uplift pressures, all of that and this is a fabulous picture representing some problems.

Hank Bonney: Yeah, this one right here, just from the looks of it, without putting a micrometer on there to gauge that metal, it looks like it's a light gauge metal just from the bends in the wind and they were trying to tie into an existing shingle coming off the flat roof and just trying to do that. But not having that tested system, you can see the end results of what occurred that allowed by that metal being lifted and not having a good continuous cleat. We always, when we're doing edge metal, we want the cleat to be at least one gauge heavier than the edge metal that's being attached. And having those tested components would certainly lead precedence through a manufactured and tested system to prevent or at least minimize the extensiveness of damage. As far as pressures, from Nick's background, I'm going to let Nick speak more to the design pressures that are stated through the different testing associations.

Nick Musel: Thanks, Hank. Will do. So obviously we all know in the industry that there are a lot of different organizations that take a look at design pressures and wind uplift. Of course, the most familiar we're used to dealing with is ANSI/SPRI ES-1 testings for edge metals in low slope roofing. You go back and you look at this ANSI SPRI was looking at wind pressures and design pressures all the way back in the mid-90s. Another organization that takes a lot of look at this is of course ASCE, the ASCE 7-16. It's all the way up to ASCE 7-22 now. American Society for Civil Engineers. And then what happens is that we have other organizations such as Factory Mutual, FM Roof Global, you have your Miami-Dade pressures, even your Florida Product Approval.

It's important when designing these roofs to understand the criteria and in different parts of the country you'll get different wind pressures. It's a lot more difficult designing roofs for let's say Miami, Florida than it is for middle or the Midwest United States. And so the advantage of going with a manufacturer's metal versus let's say just bending metal in your shop is that that manufacturer also has to go through the same testing criteria. They design their metal to withstand or exceed those design pressures and then they fabricate it in a shop, buy a machine, so it eliminates any potential for human error in the fabrication process. So what happens is it makes it easier for the roofing installers to get a product that they know is specifically rated to stand up to those pressures.

Heidi J Ellsworth: And what we're seeing out there right now, when you talk about Miami-Dade, obviously we've had these kind of hurricanes and extreme weather for many, many years, but we're seeing it sliding both coasts, sliding across like you said. And so Nick, just to take that a little bit further, as contractors are really understanding wind uplift, they really do need to be very aware of their region and what's required within that region because it's going to be different everywhere, right?

Nick Musel: Absolutely. Absolutely different parts of the country. And the other thing to keep in mind, Heidi is that... So when a manufacturer provides a warranty for the roof, typically if the... Well, not even just typically, if the metal is not provided from the manufacturer, the only thing really being warranted on that roof is the membrane itself. The metal is not covered unless it's specifically comes from the manufacturer. When you think about it that probably at least 60% of roof failures originate at the edge metal, it becomes critical to understand that if you want your roof protected from that warranty protected by the manufacturer, it has to include the metal as well.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah, exactly. As you were talking about these standards, let's go a little bit deeper. There's a lot of standards on the roof that deal with edge metal, but also some safety. So can you talk to those important industry standards around that, Nick?

Nick Musel: Sure, absolutely. So obviously one of the key things for all of us working in the roofing industry is working safely and this goes... Obviously we're all aware of OSHA and their requirements, but also the requirement that at the end of the day you want everyone to go home safe. This photo here, it's a great illustration. The guys are harnessed off, they're tied off. So we know that they're working with good safety restraints. We can see that the cleat is being installed prior to the skirted metal they're installing there. ES-1, as I alluded to earlier, has been around at least since the mid to late 90s. And it really started with ANSI SPRI. ANSI, the American National Standards Institute and SPRI, we're all familiar with Single Ply Roofing Institute really spearheaded that sort of testing that leads the industry today.

GT-1 is a fairly relatively new and additional way of looking at edge metal. GT-1, and it starts to look at the gutter and how the gutter is designed because of course as we get further and further along in our industry, we start to identify where roofs fail at. And now we're finding that roofs not just with the edge metal, but roofs are starting to fail with the gutter edge as well. So the industry standards really reflect all of those components now.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah. I've just been hearing so much about GT-1, like you said [inaudible 00:13:02] and just the importance of gutters and the gutters not taking off the edge metal as it's going. So Hank, what are you seeing in adoption from the contractors out there around understanding ES-1 and GT-1?

Hank Bonney: The reason behind these is, one, when you get it through a manufacturer, one, the manufacturer gives that edge-to-edge metal warranty. When it's shop-fabricated metal, the roofing contractors take it on a huge liability that they... I just don't think that they fully grasp or comprehend the magnitude if the roof fails at that metal edge. And it's deemed that as a result of the metals, water infiltrated the roof system because of not proper testing through a shop-fabricated metal, that the manufacturer could potentially not stand behind as a result of the metals being lifted up and water infiltrated. So that's why it's so important.

We're learning more and more about this process, which gives the building owner peace of mind. They know that the manufacturer is standing behind the entire warranty from edge-to-edge. And we're seeing a turn. Architectural communities are starting to spec, meeting ANSI/SPRI ES-1 criteria. And Nick can chime in, but I think today there's approximately 20, 22 states that have adopted that GT-1 for gutters because what happens is the edge metal is tied in with the gutter, the gutter comes in, then you've got your drip edge, that comes down on top of the gutter and if the gutter lifts up, it lifts the edge metal and then all of a sudden you've got a roof failure in progress as a result of the metal edge failing.

Nick Musel: And to Hank's point, I think we could probably see that GT-1 is just going to continue to become the standard across the entire United States.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah, and this is for... Just to clarify [inaudible 00:15:39], this is for all sizes of gutters, whether they're your more standard or your extra-large gutters, they're all following within that GT-1 or need to, standard, right?

Nick Musel: That is correct.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah. Okay, so with that in mind, let's talk just a little bit about manufacturer-made edge metal versus shop-fabricated. And Hank, you really started on this and I think it's really important for contractors to understand that even if they are manufacturing their own, they would need to get ES-1-certified, whereas manufacturer-made, it's ready to go. So talk a little bit about that.

Hank Bonney: There are some shops that have been tested to meet the ANSI SPRI, but however, even though their shop is tested and certified to meet that ANSI/SPRI ES-1, if they still make it in their shop and the manufacturer doesn't supply that metal, we don't include that in our warranty. So that's why it's so important to go through a manufacturer. And plus, with the way the labor pool has gotten, or I should say dwindled or diminished, it just takes a lot of the labor, which is your most costly entity out there, not only for metal, but the entire roof installation. It just gives you peace of mind and tested where once it arrives, it comes already with the fasteners. We will ask what substrate you're going to be securing into so that we know what types of fasteners. Whether it's going into wood, whether it's going into masonry, whether it's going into metal, we have the right fastener. And it's slotted so that there's no guess where to place your fasteners.

On our website, we not only offer estimating sheets to make your job easier when it comes to actually putting your lineal footage, your corners or what we call traditionally miters, splice plates. All of this is inclusive. Plus we have installation guides on the Mule-Hide website, which is www.mulehide.com. Makes it real easy to go through and figure out these items to make your job easier as far as ease of ordering, ease of processing and quoting just so when it arrives on the job site. It's just real simple and easy to install. So it takes the guesswork out of the contractors in the field. Our job is to make your job easier and try to maximize your profits.

Heidi J Ellsworth: And like you said, it saves on labor-

Hank Bonney: Correct.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Which is so critical in today's workforce.

Hank Bonney: Time is money.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Time is money and [inaudible 00:19:01]. So Nick, as we're talking about this with the warranties and the technical side of it, and you're looking at all the different types of edge metal there are, whether from gutters to copings to all the different, maybe talk a little bit about how that's going to really create a difference between shop-fabricated and manufacturer-made.

Nick Musel: Sure. Absolutely. The first key component again is looking for that edge-to-edge warranty so that everything, every roof component is covered underneath the warranty. Again, we know that wind, severe weather events, they like to attack, it likes to attack the perimeters and corners. It's the weakest point of the building, thereby being the weakest point we need to make it the strongest. And how do we do that? We do that with good quality metal that's been fabricated by the manufacturer. To Hank's point, we send it out, it's already pre-measured. We actually provide... Most of our metals, we actually provide in a 12-foot wide lengths pre-punched out fastener holes so that the roofer knows that... It takes the guesswork out of how to install this metal. It saves in labor too. So instead of having to bend and fabricate and work around that, we're sending it directly out to the crews. The crews can install it right in the field. It just makes for a universally good install at probably the weakest point of the entire roof.

Heidi J Ellsworth: And one of the things I think about as we talk through this too is that contractors are... They may have their own shops where they're making it, but they may also be buying it from other sheet metal shops in their area or they're buying it through distribution and manufacturers with the whole system. And so again, I know we've hit on this already, but when you are really working on a project that large and you're working with your manufacturer to be able to get all of the elements and make sure that they're all under that single warranty, talk about some of the considerations that they may be needing to make through that decision-making process. Nick?

Nick Musel: Sure. And the other thing to what you're describing there, Heidi, is how is the metal rated? Is it going to stand up to certain wind codes? All of our manufactured metal will meet FM Global, it will meet Miami-Dade code. We have certain of our metals if installed with the correct cleat and coping can achieve up to 120 mile per hour wind speed warranty. And that's typically the highest wind speed warranty that any manufacturer provides both for membrane and the metal. So again, what we're looking at is a very robust edge metal condition that we know is going to stand up to extreme weather conditions.

Heidi J Ellsworth: And I know we touched on this before, but I think it is really important to, and maybe Hank, to clarify this too, that to get the ES-1, to meet the ES-1 standard, you have to make sure that it was manufactured correctly to that ES-1. And not everyone can do that.

Hank Bonney: That's correct. It's a combination of cleats and metal that allow it to lock into place to give it the strength and rigidness that it can withstand and support certain categories of winds coming through. Of course, when you get to Cat 5 hurricanes or you get to EF3s and above in [inaudible 00:23:09] activities, you've got acts of gods that are just beyond anybody's comprehension of the power of these and not that... You start wondering if the building's going to withstand, never mind the edge metals or the roof system, but if we can at least minimize damage up to a certain level of wind speed, that just takes a lot of that liability and guesswork out of those contractor metal shops trying to figure out how are we going to secure this metal and is it going to stay on at certain winds? This has all been tested through the manufacturer, in this case being Mule-Hide with our edge metal systems, that takes that peace of mind to the building owner, peace of mind to our contractors. It just gives everybody security that the metal's going to perform.

Heidi J Ellsworth: And speaking of that, as you look at, again, another great image, but as you really look at what you were talking about with the types of products, to put all this together, Hank, can maybe continue with us on the not one size fits all, I think that's a interesting comment in how you can really work with your manufacturer.

Hank Bonney: Absolutely. Sometimes you just run into different substrates and applications. You might just have a flat roof that you're looking at just coming up with a drip edge, whether it's a Kynar-coated metal or whether you're installing a TPO or PVC roof system where you may want to go with a coated metal. We make PVC as well as TPO clad coated metal that is weldable. We even make it with the TPO or PVC skirt already attached to the metal. What joy is that just fastening and using your robotic welder to weld that right to your field sheet?

Nick Musel: Talk about a labor saver right there.

Hank Bonney: Oh my gosh, it's just a joy. Or you run into parapet walls where you got to go with the coping. But the other thing that you face with copings is various size walls and you're transitioning from a 12 inch to an 18 inch or down to a 6 inch, then you're worried about transition miters. And we come up with other things that we can attach to the wood fascia without having to go with the remaining piece of metal across the wall and down the back leg. We offer a product called EclipsEdge, which is you've got a cleat, you've got the metal face or plate that goes over top, you have various colors that you can snap on and you just seal the back edge of that cleat with our JTF 1 Joint & Termination Sealant. And we've got snap copings, we've got radius copings.

So there's just so many varieties that we can offer and you're not having to change your gear, your metal shop to do that because we've got all the tools and equipment to give you a tested and a very nice attractive metal edge that you can be proud of. And I think, last time I checked, we've got 39 different colors to offer so we can match any characteristic that the building has as far as color schemes.

Heidi J Ellsworth: That's excellent. That's what you need as you're trying to put all this together from an architectural view, but also having the performance. Nick, talk a little bit about all the different products too that technically are needed, but that you can provide.

Nick Musel: Oh, sure. And just following up on Hank, we can do a standard coping, we can do an EclipsEdge, we can do arc radius copings, we have skirted drip edge metal, we have standard drip edge metal. One of the other neat things that we can do is on really difficult to measure jobs, we can send out a crew out there with a measuring device that can precisely measure the dimensions for your coping so that you're getting the right metal at the right time. The worst thing to do, of course, is maybe have imperfect metal measurements and then time is wasted. Time is always a key component to installing these roofs, so if we can provide that precise measurement so that you're getting the right metal at the right time, right there again it eliminates the guesswork and it makes it easier for the crew to install the material.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah. And you're also looking for a variety... Let's talk just a little bit about the overall other uses for metal on the roof. I know you were talking earlier about 10 feet compared to 12 foot sheets and how that works. Can you share some of that?

Nick Musel: Sure. We have over probably two dozen different metal edge products that we can offer for any solution, essentially for any roof out there. That's again the advantage of going to a manufacturer, is instead of trying to have to bend this all in your shop, we have pre-made material. And to Hank's point as well, so if you've got really intricate corner, miter details, we have pre-measured out splice plates and corner plates. Again, the idea is twofold, is we want to eliminate the guesswork for the installation, and two, we want to make it as easy as possible for the installing crew.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Understanding the products, where they're at and then you definitely get into estimating. So you're going to have estimating salespeople on here, estimators on here, owners who possibly are saying, "Okay, I need to make sure I'm getting this all in the right estimate" and in the comparisons of what we've been talking about. So Hank, talk a little bit about using technical experts on the job site and how that can really help estimators and the contractors.

Hank Bonney: Having our technical experts that have been dealing with metal for as long as I can remember, just having them go out to the sites in unison with your team or your estimating team to show them how they go about doing the field measurements, figuring inside outside miters or corners, people call them different things, but I've been in the business so long that you so used to... If you drill down, you ask the questions, you get to the heart of what they're actually looking for, we can really hone in and make sure that you're getting all the pieces and components that you need. So many people remember to order coping and the cleat, but they forget that for each joint of metal you've got a splice plate to seal to make sure that you don't have water getting in between those joints. And then of course using a butyl tape to seal that to prevent the water from coming in. When you snap, say like a coping, down on top, you run into that.

We offer anywheres from 24 gauge metal all the way through various sizes of aluminums. You've got the 032s, you've got 040s, you've 050s, you've got the 063s. So we've got various types of metal and a lot of times you'll see specifiers requesting 050 or 063. When you get into that heavier gauge metal, sometimes you'll see that they ask for three coats instead of two coats. That may be something that's missed in the estimating point, but that could be a costly thing. So that's where the expertise can guide us through because a lot of that is post-coated. Because of that heavy metal, you can't put the coating on because of the break while you're doing all your bends. So that's where post-coating comes in with these [inaudible 00:32:18] coated types metal. And by having that expert there, he's going to safeguard so that you're covered on all your costs.

Heidi J Ellsworth: That makes total sense. And understanding... You have your expert on the metal edge, but it also goes into the whole system too because you're working with one manufacturer.

Hank Bonney: Absolutely.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah. Nick, you were talking about the technology, that you can come out and actually get measurements. That's a great new technology. I'm aware of it. Talk a little bit more about that.

Nick Musel: Yeah, I've only seen it be used once or twice, but it really is neat piece of equipment. They've got a gauge that literally will run along the entire coping of a building and will measure, digitally save the information into a program. The precision of this is just unbelievable. And at the end of the day, again, one of the advantages of going to a manufacturer is, is that as Mule-Hide provides, is we really become the one-stop shop. You get your membrane from us, you get your accessories from us, now you get our metal from us, you get the complete package to install that roof and at the end of the day you get that edge-to-edge warranty. And that's really what a lot of building owners are now starting to look for.

Heidi J Ellsworth: And it's not easy to hire, whether it's out on the roof or whether it's estimators or salespeople, whoever it may be, in your companies. The labor pool is getting smaller, there's just no question about that. And being able to have this kind of technical expertise really allows the productivity of your estimators to increase where you may not need as many. Nick?

Nick Musel: Correct. Absolutely. You might not need as many laborers on the ground installing the metal because it's already pre-manufactured. It just the ease of it, it provides that solution for that good roof, which is the win for everyone. It's the win for the installers, win for the manufacturer and it's a win for the building owner.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Hank, as you are looking at working with the contractors in the field, what is some of the feedback you're hearing specifically on the technical support, measurements, eliminating that guesswork, what are you hearing from your contractors?

Hank Bonney: Some of the various suggestions that we've given to them, and I actually had one recent job that they weren't aware that we had girded edge metal. He goes, "I just saved him a ton of labor by offering that pre-punched holes already. It took the guesswork out where he needed to place the fasteners." He had never been exposed to anything like that. It just made it so much easier for him. That's just one example of many. Our EclipsEdge where you didn't have to worry about... Because from the ground it looks like coping metal, but you're not paying for that extra metal. So we gave an option you didn't have to worry about different sizes of coping, so it kept everything uniform. You're fastening it to the face, you're doing a clip, and then it snaps into place. So you not only got a good ANSI/SPRI ES, FM assembled system, you've got protection of Mule-Hide warranting it from edge to edge.

And that's what gives your clients and your building owners just peace of mind knowing that the manufacturers got them covered from the edge, which starts at the metal, right on into the entire roof system. And it just makes it so much more simplistic for our roof and customer contractor base to be able to offer this entity to their clients and takes the liability out of their hands and puts it on us Mule-Hide because we are offering that tested system.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah-

Nick Musel: [inaudible 00:36:43]. Oh, go ahead, Heidi.

Heidi J Ellsworth: No, go ahead.

Nick Musel: The other thing to keep in mind is that when we eliminate the potential for human error, we get a better product at the end of the day. When we talk about that in our single-ply systems, we look at like let's say our EPDMs where we have a factory-applied tape. So it's already factory applied, it eliminates the possibility for error. When we look at heat-welded systems now, everyone is doing it with a robotic welder. Again, we're eliminating that potential for human error. So when you get that metal that's manufactured in the plant by the manufacturer, it's pre-measured and estimated on the job site, gets sent out to the job sites, to the crew, again, you're eliminating that potential for human error.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yeah. And we're seeing this, the more automation that's coming, it's really differentiating contractors who are able to use it and to use prefabbed. So as we're talking through that, let's continue down this road with installation best practices. So Nick, I know Mule-Hide has amazing training. Let's talk about that and what are some of those opportunities and best practices that you can help offer?

Nick Musel: Sure, absolutely. Right now, Mule-Hide has three great training facilities. We have one here in Beloit, Wisconsin where we're headquartered at. We have one located in New Jersey, and one down in Orlando, Florida. We're talking about building another one in Denver, Colorado. These are great places to bring your team in, bring your crew in and learn from the experts the correct way to install these materials on the roof. As we start to look at more and more edge-to-edge metal roof systems, we are going to begin including training and metal and how to install that on the roof properly. Again, the goal is that we want to make everything as seamless as possible, if you pardon the pun, for the installers because we want every roof to be a success.

Heidi J Ellsworth: And talk a little bit about the calculators. Maybe Hank, can you talk... You guys have some great calculators that can really help people understand what's going on?

Hank Bonney: Absolutely. That ES-1 calculator, it is located on our website. If you go to Mule-Hide, www.mulehide.com, when you go to the top of the page, once you come to the main landing page of our website, go to the top of the page where it says Resources, click on that. You're going to find numerous items that you can click on. One of them is the ES-1 calculator. That will ask for some information, your municipality that you're in, it'll ask about certain criteria. Once you input that information, it will tell you what's required in that area to meet that ES-1 category for your roof metal system in that area. It's an amazing item.

And also on our website, just go into the top of the page where it says Roofing. You click on that, you can scroll on down to single-plies. It'll get into coatings, it'll get into our modified bitumen. But since we're on metal, if you scroll further down, you're going to see edge metal. You click on that, then you can go and it'll expand out to larger areas like our drip edge, our coping, our two-piece compression metal. Basically it will get into counterflashings and reglets. It will get into radius copings. It will get into EclipsEdge.

So you can go into all of these and we even have under the marketing category, under documents, if you go in it'll give you estimating worksheets. That's your template to be able to input information and send it to your Mule-Hide territory manager for processing your quotes. And we turn those around in a very timely fashion. I think the average time for turning around a quote is roughly 38 to 40 minutes. That's amazing in itself to be able to turn the quotes that quick. So there's a lot of information on this website.

And the neat thing is we have installation videos for many of our products that make it so much easy to walk through step by step. And even at the top of our webpage, if you go to where it says English, click on that, it will flip the whole category over into Spanish, Español. So you can see videos in Spanish, you can see details, data sheets, installation specifications, all of this in Spanish.

Heidi J Ellsworth: That is great. And let's talk just a little bit about the fasteners. Fasteners, they were like jewels during the material shortage to try to get fasteners, but now with what you're doing, and we saw earlier pictures, you're already telling people fasteners, how to use it, how many. So it gets very detailed. Nick, talk to us a little bit about how that can help the contractors.

Nick Musel: It eliminates error. And at the end of the day, that's what we want to do. We want to eliminate the potential for error. Mule-Hide has a whole resource of materials on our website, like Hank was talking about, speaking specifically to the types of fasteners used in a different substrate, the minimum amount of fastener penetration into those substrates. Again, what we're looking for is the correct way of attaching the metal so that it can resist those larger wind events. And of course, there's a whole host of fasteners that can be used, whether you're drilling into a wood nailer or into a brick or a block wall or if you're drilling into a metal deck. So all this information is readily available on our website. It's also accessible if you reach out to our technical team as well. Like most manufacturers websites, we have so many products that we offer that it can be overwhelming for the initial user to jump on there and try to find exactly what they're looking for, so Mule-Hide provides both an internal and external technical team that is willing to help guide the individual installer towards the right product.

Hank Bonney: Another thing to add to what Nick stated is on our estimating sheets, it will ask you the substrate that you're attaching to. That way we know what type of fasteners to send with your metal package knowing what you're installing too, whether it's wood, whether it's metal, whether it's masonry. So it takes the guesswork right on out of your hands and just everything's ready to go and be installed upon receipt of your metal package at the job sites.

Heidi J Ellsworth: That's excellent. And I know we've talked a little bit about the EclipsEdge throughout this whole presentation, but just to give us a summary here when it comes to installation best practices using the EclipsEdge, Nick, why? How does that help?

Nick Musel: Sort of what Hank was saying. So one, you're saving on metal because the EclipsEdge really is, it's a fascia fastening metal, gives the appearance of a full coping cap without having to spend the additional money. It's an easy product to use. You install your cleat, you snap in the EclipsEdge  and you just have to do... On the back edge facing towards your roof, you apply a single bead of our JTS 1 Joint, Termination Sealant. The other thing is that EclipsEdge is rated through Factory Mutual. It's rated through Miami-Dade. It has design pressures. It can even, if installed per spec and code, achieve that 120 mile per hour warranted wind speed. So it is just a universally easy product to use that provides everything that a building owner is looking for on their drip edge.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Excellent. You guys are making it too easy on contractors here.

Hank Bonney: That's the whole job.

Heidi J Ellsworth: That's the whole idea. And we just answered our question right here for this slide, but. To why buy edge metal through a manufacturer? Number one, to make it easy. But Nick, why don't you start us off on this, the manufacturer's role and just that bigger picture.

Nick Musel: Sure. The manufacturer's role again is to eliminate the guesswork. If you go to these factories, if you go to these plants, they actually have wind uplift tables that they design and they test their metal at. So they know the point of failure for the metal, they know what the metal can provide. So right there, you're getting that peace of mind knowing that you're having a guaranteed warranted material that you're going to install on the roof system.

Heidi J Ellsworth: And Hank, what are some of the advantages? Let's just summarize them up. We've been talking about them through this hour, but the overall advantages of purchasing for manufacturers?

Hank Bonney: You've got consistent performance of the roof system, time-tested, proven, they've tested it in various wind tunnel type testing to know what wind speeds it's going to perform in. And once you've achieved that, you know that everything is going to meet all the criteria that you're running into by having the cleats and securement of the roof system. You've got a lot of variables through a shop-fabricated, from fasting placement to knowing that you've got to use a heavier gauge metal for the cleat one gauge heavier than you would your actual metal cover that you go on. So it's just basically taken all that guest work out and just knowing that you've got a metal edge system that's going to perform time and time again.

Heidi J Ellsworth: We have a great question that just came in from Daniel. Thank you Daniel so much. And it says, "Is there currently a publicly available directory that is relatively easy to use that lists the products and their level of performance so end users, such as estimators, contractors, code officials, architects, consultants, et cetera, have access"? And this would be for edge metal and gutter systems.

Nick Musel: Yep, we do. We currently have an edge metal accessory guide. If we haven't fully updated it now, we're currently updating it to reflect just a stronger edge metal system we now provide, but it is readily available on our website. In the upper right-hand toolbar, if you just type in edge metal and hit enter, it's going to provide you a list of documents down below. And the accessory guide would speak to all the products we offer.

Heidi J Ellsworth: And I'm not sure about this, so forgive me if I'm wrong on this, but there is a directory I know in the single-ply world through SPRI called Dora, D-O-R-A. And we do have Dora [inaudible 00:49:18] directory on Roofers Coffee Shop where you can find out more information. But maybe Nick or Hank, you know this, but I'm not sure if they have edge metal in Dora at this point or not.

Hank Bonney: Not that I'm aware of.

Nick Musel: Yeah, not that I'm aware of either. Typically, when I used to do internal review and looking at edge metal, I would actually go to FM Global. All of the metals are listed on FM Global and provide the maximum design pressures for the edge metal system. And also if you get into FM enough and you start typing in the criteria for the building you're looking at, it'll start to speak to zones four and five, which is exterior edge metal and cladding. So it'll actually tell you the design pressures you need for a specific roof or building system, and then you just need to match that up against a provided metal product also listed. And then of course just meet or exceed that design pressure. So these metals are listed.

Heidi J Ellsworth: In FM? Okay. And it looks like Daniel says, "SPRI is working on possibly adding this to Dora." I thought I heard that the last SPRI meeting. So thank you Daniel. I thought that was possibly happening. Excellent. Okay, Nick, disadvantages. I never want to leave anything on a negative. I always like the positive, but I think it is important to just point out some of the risk. And so let's call this risk mitigation of not purchasing through a manufacturer. Let's summarize that.

Nick Musel: Sure. You're essentially assuming responsibility for the part of the entire roof that's going to experience the most amount of wind events. So the wind likes to attack corners, it likes to attack perimeters and edges of the building. If you rely upon a shop [inaudible 00:51:12] manufactured metal or fabricated metal, you are assuming all of the liability. Once that metal starts going, it takes the whole roof system with it.

Heidi J Ellsworth: It is. It's crazy. And I want to say everyone, please now's the time for questions. Please let us know if you have any questions or comments as we're working on this. But Hank, to Nick's point, summarizing just the risk that contractors take from not.

Hank Bonney: I know I can speak for Nick and all of us that all of our roofing contractors are our friends. We take a vested interest in their livelihood. They're trying to provide for their families. We don't want them taking this burden on their shoulder of doing shop-fabricated metal that could create a potential risk and liability that they don't need to assume just by sliding that metal over to a manufacturer that has tested and proven that's going to meet the ANSI/SPRI ES-1 FM and just give them and their building owners and clients not only a better performing roofing system, but a roofing system that's going to last with manufactured-made metal.

Heidi J Ellsworth: And some labor savings.

Hank Bonney: Huge, huge labor savings.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Huge labor savings.

Hank Bonney: Saves them having to shopbreak all of that.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Yes. On that note as you're saying, we know that there are some amazing contractors out there with great shops and who are at ES-1-approved or to that standard and who are working together with their manufacturers to make sure everything's right. But this really is the future of looking at how contractors can put whole systems together, limit their risk  and also save on labor. So a lot of advantages.

Hank Bonney: We're also seeing a lot more specifications calling for manufactured edge metal through your system manufacturer because the architectural and specifying community is realizing the importance of tested and meeting that criteria of the ANSI/SPRI ES-1 or the GT-1 that's starting to go all across the nation. We just see it growing more and more each year.

Heidi J Ellsworth: All the time. If you have any last questions, please share them in the chat or any comments that we can share. We would love to do that. Hank, let's talk a little bit about next steps. Oh, wait, we have a question first. Can Mule-Hide supply custom-shaped ANSI/SPRI ES-1 metal edge assemblies? If so, is there a fee associated with that? Hank?

Hank Bonney: From the assemblies? I know that we have installation guides. I know that we've got estimating sheets. I don't know, that one might be more suited towards Nick from the technical aspect if we have an assembly for that at this time.

Nick Musel: Sure. If you start to really dig into, and we're going to eventually provide all of this information on our website as well, all of these metals have a specific design pressure to... Again, ANSI SPRI is really the testing to determine if an edge metal can meet the certain uplift. How we factor that into the industry then is looking at the design pressure. So we do know that if we take certain metals, we install it with a correct gauge of cleat that it's going to achieve a certain design pressure.

Heidi J Ellsworth: So this would be... And thank you, [inaudible 00:55:33], I hope I said your name right, so much for that question. We can connect you with Mule-Hide to go through that and talk about what exact assembly you're looking for as we're going through that. So great question. And I was just going to say too, and I think you just answered it, but how, what's the next step? So for listeners out there who are interested in starting to work through these systems and work with a full edge metal and work with the team, how do they get a hold of you, Hank?

Hank Bonney: It's real easy to reach out to me. You can either email me at hank.bonney, just like the name shows there. Hank.bonney, B-O-N-N-E-Y, @Mule-Hide.com. Also, easily accessible through my cell phone number, which is (704)-201-1054. I welcome any and all calls and just feel free to reach out to me at any time. We're always willing to help. I do also... Heidi mentioned about our training program and Nick alluded to three current centers. I'm getting ready to go to Beloit, one of our training centers, to do training next week. And then two weeks later I'm down in Orlando, Florida, our other training center doing a contractor training. So we're training all the time. I've done a ton of training already this year.

Heidi J Ellsworth: I love it. We have time just for this one last question. Can you provide a brief overview of Mule-Hide's involvement with RICOWI and IBHS on severe weather-related low slope roof damages? Nick?

Nick Musel: I'll be honest, you caught me a little flat-footed here. That's one of the few acronyms that I'm actually not intimately familiar with. I will say that when I used to work in Mule-Hide's internal review department here, our technical service admin department looking at severe weather events typically means looking at increased either design wind speed or warranted wind speed. And we provide criteria for both. Again, typically I think we would look at individual locations around the country and there are different testing criteria that shows the 10, 15 or 20 year wind speeds and we look at how strong we want to design that roof system for. From there, we go into different online calculators and get those design pressures. Usually though, that should come from a design professional such as an architect or a consultant. And what we try to do is we try to match up those design pressures against the tested assemblies that we provide through our different metal offerings.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Perfect. And Daniel, RICOWI and IBHS are both on RoofersCoffeeShop. I'm pretty sure you're already very familiar with them, but RICOWI being the Roofing... I can never say their acronym right, but basically on hail and wind and extreme weather events and they work closely with IIBEC. And then IBHS, which is the Insurance Builders... And again, I'm sorry, I'm not going to say the acronym right, but... Both great organizations. Daniel, thank you so much. Great organizations and I'll be sure to get the information over to you all and we'll share it around. It's all on the directories of RoofersCoffeeShop.

Nick Musel: Yeah, and I'll jump in real quick, Heidi, just to add then. So yeah, hail and wind, we definitely provide system-specific warranties for that. Mule-Hide does. Typically, for hail, you're looking at thicker and thicker gypsum type cover boards typically adhered with an adhered membrane system. Wind, again, we start looking at design pressures and how that affects the complete overall assembly of the roof system.

Heidi J Ellsworth: That is great and thank you. Thank you everyone for the questions. Nick, Hank, what a great overview we just had. A nice [inaudible 00:59:53]. Thank you very much, this was very informative. Thank you so much for being a part of this RLW and sharing all of your information and wisdom. It was great. Thank you.

Hank Bonney: It's been a pleasure.

Nick Musel: Thanks, Heidi.

Heidi J Ellsworth: Thank you. And thank you everybody for watching. We'll be back again at the end of next month. Be sure to check out our next RLW and all of the RLWs on RoofersCoffeeShop where you can watch them on demand. You can read them, you can listen to them or you can watch them. Have a great day and we'll be seeing you again soon. Thank you.