Side Work

IMO, if I bid on the job , and you work for me, I better not catch you this weekend doing this roof, if I do, you will be starting your own business then and there. I have heard a lot on here over the months about under the table competition, no comp, no gl, no benefits, cash only, and they are a very big reason , you lose jobs , pay higherr insurance premiums, etc. This has nothing to do with controling someones life on the weekend, I could care less if any of my guys get drunk, go fishing, go to church, whatever, THAT, is none of my business., and , also, if they have a side job, I don't care where they buy materials, and I don't care if they do it on their own time, none of my business. They will not be working here though, if they bite the hand that feeds them, and feeds me, that is the only place I draw a line. You can't tell me how easy it is to start and build and continue your business, 'If it was that easy , everone would do it", so until any of my people want to walk the walk, I do not welcome them , when they are working with me, as competition. iF THEY SERIOSLY WANT TO COMPETE, then you know what, or walk the walk, let's see what happens on a level playing field, wouldn't be fair if I had to run the ball up-hill the whole game, while they always ran downhill. So, my opinion is somewhere in the middle on this. Case closed.>>>

that home owner set him up! they deserve each other.>>>

jesse Said: I think you all have some very good points. The homeowner called me on friday afternoon and asked me to finish the roof. He explained to me that he saw the guy while we were working on a neighbors house and asked him if he could do his roof. The HO said he thought it would be good so the guys could make some extra money on the weekend. this was a 30 sq house with a back porch roof that was flat. This employee is not one of our main guys. He is not capable of doing a roof by himeself.

Jesse, If he got the job while doing your job, I would FIRE HIM! That's not cool.>>>

I would state (nearly absolutely) that if your employees are doing side jobs, some or all of the materials and equipment that are going into it were previously yours.

There's a fortune to be made in this business if you pay nothing for labor or materials, and have no other manner of overhead (such as pesky licenses, WC and GL), and get paid unreported cash. And they know it.

Kudos to you if you have that rare individual employee who wouldn't even use your nails or mastic on a side job.>>>

Cell Phones....do you guys let your workers have them at work?>>>

I think you all have some very good points. The homeowner called me on friday afternoon and asked me to finish the roof. He explained to me that he saw the guy while we were working on a neighbors house and asked him if he could do his roof. The HO said he thought it would be good so the guys could make some extra money on the weekend. this was a 30 sq house with a back porch roof that was flat. This employee is not one of our main guys. He is not capable of doing a roof by himeself.

I have always agreed with the if we have a few days of rain during the week they should come in on a saturday so everyone can make money. I dont think that if we are working full weeks then they should have to work on the weekends.>>>

RandyB1986 Said: Man, some of you guys act like you own slaves instead of employees. I have never seen so many tight wads in one spot in my life, lol. Its bad enough when you want to tell them they cant smoke a joint on their own time, but to tell them they cant work on the side......or they must buy materials from you.....or you better work hard thru the week. I had a boss like a few of you guys once......

I told that boss to stick my job up his ass and I would go bid work for myself....for 1/2 what he charges and still make better money then he could pay me. Almost 20 years later....I still stay busy with his former clients and his company is now owned by his ex salesman.

Guess he should have been as worried about his salesman screwing him as he was me feeding my family :silly:

I hope none of your guys are doing the same to you now.......just sayin' ;) ;)

JET>>>

Randy, Jed, et al.....

Before you get to hung up on me being a tight wad or control freak, let me point out a few more things.

10 square is more than you are likely to find on any house in our area (flat roofs - we don't do shingles, and I could care less if they are shingling in their own time)

We buy in TL quantities, so I can sell material to my guys cheaper than they can buy it at a supply house. Buying it from me simply allows me to know that that they ARE BUYING it and not just walking off with it.

I pay health insurance. I pay it for the whole family. I don't have a minumum hours worked policy for the health insurance to be paid, and I carry it through the winter months, even though I know, AS ALWAYS HAPPENS, some of those guys won't return in the spring when we call them back.

Like I said, sometimes you gotta feed the horse, if you want the wagon to move. Everyone loves the benefits and sometimes those mean you gotta get work done when weather permits. We got 8 months to make hay that will last through the other 4.

Maybe that sheds a different light on your view? Maybe not.

And can any of you really say with a straight face that a guy not showing up for work so that he could do a cash deal for a LEGITIMATE COMPETITOR is OK in your book? Come on, seriously?

>>>

A more insidious foe is " the drug culture " that exist amongst our trade. I have had many talks with former employees about drugs. Had policy in place to ( combat stupidly) deal with it . I would always let employees do side work with conditions . I would never fire or put down an employee for side work . I was happy for the added income to their families . The really big monster is drugs . I'm not happy to support a habit that is killing their family's and every and anyone around them . Including but not limited to the roofing trade . I don't see that as control . The drug culture is a a departure from what is right, true and correct. An aberration to humanity and life . I continue to believe that side work is good for the family. IMO>>>

That's why you rose to the top; you are dependable. I'm sure you get extra dispensation for that. I bend the rules frequently for those who give me a decent measure in return. Trying to formalize policy is always a problem. (So is "stupid." It is a serious problem. Ego and stupid are the biggest adversaries I face in the world and in myself. What a lifelong battle it has been.)>>>

I'd like to add a couple of comments. First, CIAK asks, "Why is it we would want to control the life of another person." I am sure there are a great many enterprises in all walks of life that are prone to chaos, but in the roofing biz we are all extremely aware of how the wheels fall off a wagon (and quite often for the most ridiculous, completely preventable reasons) merely because the people we depend on to make forward progress bring so little control to the table. It is understandable that the temptation to provide and enforce that control is great indeed and the urge to extend the control into the source of the chaos (the minds and private lives) of the undependable is equally great. The whole, the absolute entire history of human society is mounted on the bedrock of that control issue. We are wired for it. All the more reason to be extremely careful to avoid the temptation to overstep the minimum requirements simply because those of us who can, can. Anybody want to talk politics? I don't.

Secondly, I firmly believe that Serrano and Mike Hicks operate (and I can vouch for Mike's workplace culture because I have seen it in person) the kind of company that walks the talk. You really wouldn't NEED to do side jobs working for them and to "feed the horse" would fall well within the limits of a reasonable bargain. Many of us smaller guys offer MUCH less guaranteed support and so our impulse to control is MUCH less legitimate.

As long as the deal is structured openly and clearly, and there is no latent or patent coercion I believe you can structure the deal any way you want.>>>

In my experience once an employee starts doing side work he is almost out the door! He's testing the waters to see if he can cut it in his own business. It was true in my own case. I always wanted to be in business and so I took on a few side jobs. Made some money ,lost some money, but with each completed job, my confidence built and when the perfect time came I was out of there and on my own. I allowed my guys to do side work IF it NEVER interfered with my work. But it did and the guy was fired on the spot. He stole materials and did not show up for 3 days(claimed he was sick) but a drive by during the day confirmed the truth. Said He didn't steal materials, but he was installing 3 inch isolation and never bought any fasteners from the supply house and I just so happen to be missing 2 boxes of them. So it's a gamble to let them do side work. My biggest concern as I stated is injury's!!!!!!!!>>>

#1 I could never say no to an employee helping out a family member on a weekend.But if you have an employee doing sidework you are basically saying it is OK for the rest of the lowballing slobs that evryone on here complains about to run under the radar.

#2 If they cant make ends meet on what they are pd there are 2 issues.#1you may not be paying enough for a loyal,qualified employee to survive on in your market.Shame on you.#2He may just be bad at managing money.This is not your problem unless he makes it your problem or you let them(doing sidework)make it your problem.In this case they may want help that you can get them in a # of ways.

My field employees are allowed to work as much ot as they want when we have the work backloged for it as long as they are coming in on budget,are required to work every other Sat when the backlog is there,are required to work service work when bad weather dictates.They all understand that We work hard to keep them busy year round so it is important to get the work done when the weather is good,pay top dollar,supply strong beni's,financial planning help for daily life and retirement,spend alot of money on training,upkeep of quality equipement and vehicles,try to create a company culture and image that they can be proud to work with Serrano.In return we expect the same loyalty.

Our field employees ave about 1800 regular hours and 300 OT hours per year.If they have there act together they should do just fine.>>>

Man, some of you guys act like you own slaves instead of employees. I have never seen so many tight wads in one spot in my life, lol. It's bad enough when you want to tell them they cant smoke a joint on their own time, but to tell them they cant work on the side......or they must buy materials from you.....or you better work hard thru the week. I had a boss like a few of you guys once......

I told that boss to stick my job up his ass and I would go bid work for myself....for 1/2 what he charges and still make better money then he could pay me. Almost 20 years later....I still stay busy with his former clients and his company is now owned by his ex salesman.

Guess he should have been as worried about his salesman screwing him as he was me feeding my family :silly:>>>

This is a really interesting topic to me more because it deals with a real life issue . Why is it we would want to control the life of another person . I know and others on here understand that side jobs supplement the income and can make and break a family financial situations and families in general . Who doesn't need a little or more cash ? It becomes an issue of control. Some of what I'm hearing is I have lost control of the company if I let this continue . The idea someone is doing something without our permission upsets some of us because we have no control over that area of our own life and we are afraid of losing . We don't like it because we don't have complete control over the situation. Some of us love the feeling of being the power .Being in control of most everything, including peoples lives. The replies tell you alot about the some of the respondents . Very interesting Jesse . Thanks for taking the risk and bringing it to light>>>