PVC days limited?

TomB Said: Mike,

Agreed - Except for the fact it is indeed all about marketing

Why do you feel that way?

I've finally had enough and tracked down pricing on Carlisle PVC. None of the locals can get it, so I finally got an distributor from a couple hours away. It's really not much more!

Could you guys tell me if the labor is comparable? I'm a fully adhered type of guy, but most of the installs I see online are MA. Any comments?

Mike,

Agreed - Except for the fact it is indeed all about marketing

TomB Said: I dont have a dog in the fight at all. What I do notice is that theres a lot of Kool Aide being dispersed from all sources.

Yes, the mainstream-consensus for many years now, has been focused on that problematic TPO, and granted, theres evidence to substantiate all the fuss. However, just because its PVC, doesnt make it perfect.

Yes, Carlisle is promoting membrane w/addl KEE,(evaloy), simply as a marketing strategy to combat with Sarnafil & Fibertite, who managed to get an ASTM # of their own, basically. They all play marketing games to gain/maintain market share, as well as keep prices up.

I just thought it interesting and wondered if there was merit to the comment the rep had made that PVCs days are numbered due to the environmental aspect - He claimed most of Europe is now PVC-free. He also said Sarnafil, while promoting PVC here, is a major manufacture of TPO!

Ive run across both failed TPO & PVC roofs. I, personally, have not had a PVC or a TPO roof fail, that I know of. Thats not to say, some have failed along the way & I was simply never made aware of it. Im confident that surely must have occurred.

Tom,

I don't think Carlisle's decision to use elvaloy is a marketing ploy at all. I think their "right amount" is a campaign ploy, but not the use of KEE.

Sarnafil does not have KEE. They are the only PVC utilizing phthalate plasticizer that I've had few problems with.

Fibertite's ASTM number is due to the fact that they really aren't a PVC. They are 51% KEE, whereas the the standard KEE ASTM number requires around 15% if I'm not mistaken. When your primary compound is not PVC, it seems reasonable that you'd get a number seperate from those products who's primary compound IS pvc. ??? makes sense to me anyway.

TPO from what I understand has been mft'd in Europe for years, and has indeed performed very well. The problem isn't so much TPO, but rather the fact that it's been manufactured to be the LOW COST leader in the US. When made to higher standards, a standard that is unsupported by the US market price point, it can be a good product.

Mel,

What kind of problems have you had with FTR? The only problem I've ever had are false welds, which I can't blame on the material, and we've had 15+ year old unsupported drain flashings split out in extreme cold temperatures. Even at 20+ years old, welding new drain flashings to the old membrane was no problem at all.

This year we are replacing our first "failed" Fibertite. It took a baseball sized hail storm approximately 5-8 years ago... Darrel's son was set up in Akron Ohio for a while as a result of that storm,... and the fractures didn't show after the storm and the owner missed out on getting a free roof at the time. Finally, after all these years of rain, snow and 2 record cold winters in a row, it gave them enough trouble from the fractures opening up they've budgeted to re-roof it this year.

Needless to say, my 34 year history with the FTR product has been incredible, and every problem we've ever had with it has either been the unsupported membrane described above, our fault, or extreme hail. So I am genuinely interested in what your problems have been.

We've put down a bunch of Sure Weld and are seeing some issues with it. That said, we have also had some issues with FTR and see a ton of issues with DLast. Hard to beat a 60mil FA EPDM.

Mike H Said: One should not judge PVC based on Durolast performance. But even durolast has out-lasted every TPO Ive put down in the past 27 years.

So, yeah, keep drinking the TPO flavored cool aid. After 12 years of telling yall what was gonna happen, at least some of you are listening now.

What blows my mind is how many still havent heard the word.

Job security. I love it. LOL

Fibertite Sarnafil Cooley (and every brand they private label for) Carlisle (After jumping on the tpo bandwagon, they are now promoting PVC, with elvaloy)

PVCs you can expect to last more than 20 years.

TPOs I expect to last that long.... cant think of any. Havent seen any. Dont believe one exists. At least not in the price driven market of the USA.

Yep. yep, yep, yeppers and yepperee, that TPO be some darn good stuff. If your goal is to be out of the roofing biz within 10 years.

You left one out Mike....!! I have a sample of an IB sheet that was on a roof for 30yrs. I'll have to show it to you next time I see you.

I don't have a dog in the fight at all. What I do notice is that there's a lot of Kool Aide being dispersed from all sources.

Yes, the mainstream-consensus for many years now, has been focused on that problematic TPO, and granted, there's evidence to substantiate all the fuss. However, just because it's PVC, doesn't make it perfect.

Yes, Carlisle is promoting membrane w/add'l KEE,(evaloy), simply as a marketing strategy to combat with Sarnafil & Fibertite, who managed to get an ASTM # of their own, basically. They all play marketing games to gain/maintain market share, as well as keep prices up.

I just thought it interesting and wondered if there was merit to the comment the rep had made that PVCs' days are numbered due to the environmental aspect - He claimed most of Europe is now PVC-free. He also said Sarnafil, while promoting PVC here, is a major manufacture of TPO!

I've run across both failed TPO & PVC roofs. I, personally, have not had a PVC or a TPO roof fail, that I know of. That's not to say, some have failed along the way & I was simply never made aware of it. I'm confident that surely must have occurred.

One should not judge PVC based on Durolast performance. But even durolast has out-lasted every TPO I've put down in the past 27 years.

So, yeah, keep drinking the TPO flavored cool aid. After 12 years of telling y'all what was gonna happen, at least some of you are listening now.

What blows my mind is how many still haven't heard the word.

Job security. I love it. LOL

Fibertite Sarnafil Cooley (and every brand they private label for) Carlisle (After jumping on the tpo bandwagon, they are now promoting PVC, with elvaloy)

PVC's you can expect to last more than 20 years.

TPO's I expect to last that long.... can't think of any. Haven't seen any. Don't believe one exists. At least not in the price driven market of the USA.

Yep. yep, yep, yeppers and yepperee, that TPO be some darn good stuff. If your goal is to be out of the roofing biz within 10 years.