Pay scale compared to other Industries

Cyberian Said:

Absolutely!

You provide a very nice benefits package for your employees.

Ours is comparable and probably a bit higher than scale, not many union shops left here to compare to.

You would think that what you offer would have them pounding down the door to go to work for you. Is that the case? Its not here. Why?

Most tell me its because we drug test. Im not sure I buy that.

No, we have not yet been forced to install a revolving door to handle the traffic. Lot's of people out of work.... lots of people happy collecting their extended UNemployment checks for sitting on their rumps. I'm sure the drug testing has some to do with it, but I think fear of heights, hard work, inconsistent workdays etc... all play a part.

But mostly I think it's just the fact that the gooberment makes it too easy not to work.

I'm glad to see that we aren't the only crew who doesn't like to hire mis-educated roofers.

I think it's hard to find a honest guy who will bust his ass every day for $12/hr(starting off) These odds get worse when you ask him to pass a drug test. What a guy does after work is none of my business as long as he gets his ass off the couch when the time comes. I don't need to use drugs as an excuse to fire someone, when really it's irresponsibility. Somebody getting hammered drunk and feeling it the next day is just as dangerous IMO.

Rocky....The industry has been sing'n that song for 20 yrs that I kbnow of....

Soldierboy....I hear ya there....been there-done that.....I've hired severasl $80k+ general superintendents over the years when we were bigger. I do know a couple of them took different career paths, following our separation(s). A couple of them came from large companies where they must've "hid-out", because they lacked severely, and it shone-though when they had to stand alone.

MikeH....I agree completely....When we ran a more substantial shop, in a more constant/stable marketplace, we had similar employment guidelines....We paid for the employees' health ins. 100%., (The employee would have to pick-up his her dependents though)....Our profit-sharing was simpler; Based on a per job basis. All estimated labor went back to employees. No 401k.

The big one though....I too, prefer to hire in-experienced people. The best estimator I ever had, I hired almost fresh out of school.....He worked for me for 5 yrs before going to work for his Dad back in Indiana. I have several former employee success stories where they went on to form thier own very successfull businesses...What they all have in common, is the fact they started w/me, w/o any experience, and have all expressed their gratitude. (It almost brings a tear to the eye...ha)

Today, I'm in a unique situation....I chose to live in a resort community, where work is seasonal and the labor pool is even more gypsie-like.....Enter the huge illegal construction/service workforce, who supply the support service industry here, and you have a rather difficult/frustrating scenerio. But hey, I made my bed.

To reiterate; By all means; If one can find good people w/o any experience, that's they way to go. It's proven, time & again.

Mike H Said: It can work. But not if your only means of selling a job is being the lowest price.

Absolutely!

You provide a very nice benefits package for your employees.

Ours is comparable and probably a bit higher than scale, not many union shops left here to compare to.

You would think that what you offer would have them pounding down the door to go to work for you. Is that the case? It's not here. Why?

Most tell me it's because we drug test. I'm not sure I buy that.

Pay needs, scales, and living expenses vary so much across the country that I don't see what it matters. What is important is that your wage is competitive in the marketplace, that opportunity to advance within the company exists, and that people think you care about them.

Here's what I won't do: I don't hire experienced roofers. Don't need the baggage, attitude and mistakes of an "experienced" guy that is looking for a job.

I don't try to hire people from other companies. I figure if a guy is willing to come to me for more money, he's going to do the same to me eventually, and I have no real respect for companies that don't train their own people anyway.

What I will do: Hire people with ZERO roofing experience. Train them OUR way. Offer a wage that is better than a local factory job. Offer full family health coverage at an employee expense of $25/pay period. Offer a YE profit sharing plan that has averaged about $4.00/hour worked, that is heavily slanted toward A) people that show up to work every day, B ) Company loyalty, and yet C) Reserves 1/3 of the total for nothing more complex than the number of hours worked so that even 1st year guys have something of value in the program. Offer a job specific bonus program that returns EVERY estimated labor dollar to the employees, if the job comes in under budget. Payable as soon as the final invoice is paid and/or the job passes warranty inspection/punchlist complete. Offer a 3% employer 401K contribution to every employee, regardless of their personal contribution, PLUS a YE profit sharing 401K contribution of 3%, if funds are availabe (most years they are).

My average wage isn't super high. It's not union scale, but I had one forman leave for the union after some heavy recruitment...... he came back a month later asking for his job back. Said "I just can't work around that kind of attitude".

Every employee of mine is a Drug-Free, US Citizen, most of them have a family, and most of them have drivers licenses.

It can work. But not if your only means of selling a job is being the lowest price.

I agree that most foremen should be able to handle all of that, many would prefer it actually. I know I do.

I'm walking a fine line of what I can and can't say publicly- it's not my shop-

What I probably can say is that I walked away from more than $22 hr w/no benefits to move back home over 11 years ago.

With benefits here, It's more than $10 higher than that, closer to $15 higher.

Maybe it's different areas of the country, different labor pools, different markets, I don't know.

Cyberian:

The job description is one that most Forman's should be doing. If someone doesn't want to work that extra half an hour in the morning for $22.00 an hour and set up his and his crews work for the day then they are lazy. I have gone back and forth threw the years about having a project manager full time. Did that and I should have just burned the money. It turned out to be more aggrivation than it was worth. A Lead Carpenter "Forman" should be able to handle this extra duty. Guys in the Military cary several extra duties and manage to get it done.

shoulda spell checked that but you get my point

unfortunately I dont think we are going to get many white, american guys to do roofing anymore, unless we change our ways. I believe this for a few reasons. First the invasion from the south and the willingness of the employers to hire them at a much lower rate has driven the average white guy to the couch or walmart to find a job. Low wages, a position that offers no self esteem and many, many willful health violations leaves the roofing industry with little to choose from in the empolyment line. That is why I am an advocate for paying fair wages. If we are to retain any young, white people in the industry we have to clean-up our industry and retrain ourselves to raise our prices, offer a better service and a cleaner appearance. I know most of you might be saying "well I do That Already". It's not you I m talking. It's the industry as a whole. Many of the white employees I see working for other companies look like they just woke up, didnt brush their teeth, smell like urine, scraggly beard(nothing wrong with facial hair) and they wear shorts with their left nut hanging out. Come on, what kind of image is that. We,ve all seen it. It has to stop. With the types of roofs being installed today, with the technolgy used to install and the safety feature everyone should be using we should be attracting our share of clean cut kids to take over Not every kid coming out of high school is going to go to college and become a doctor, lawyer, accountant, politician or some other white collar employees. 70-80% arne't even going to go or finish college. So where arte they going? I'll tell this. They have no direction and you know MOM and DAD are not saying "Son, roofing is a good profession". But we can change that. Might take 20 years. We need to attend the high school job fairs and show them the advancements in the industry. The diversity of jobs from front office, sales, PMs, supers,foremen, journeymen, trainees, distribution, manufacturing , marketing and adversting. Its a whole industry. we need to lead them back to roofing and show them that it is a worhty profession or careerpath to take. I know for the past 15- 20 years we have dumped and blamed many of our problems on our neighbors to the south. I m all for some type of immagration bill, but let me tell you this. Most of the Mexicans that I've hired(legally of course) are the epitome of what kind of employee I would be looking for. Unless I've been extremely lucky, I've had self respcting ,hardworking, trainable employees that have moved thru my system from trainnees to supers. Infortunately most of them have moved on to the other trades and if we hire any hispanics they are guatamalans, hondurans,venezuelans, and such mostly peons and farmers with out the same ethics as the mexicans. What to do.....

Soldierboy describes what a journeyman was for us, some 20 yrs ago....Not today! There are none! I recall running 20 +/- roofers, 10-15 framers, AND building spec houses, all concuurrently with no super! Never happen today...It would be a nightmare.

Recent story;

Hired two "roofers". Both do have 5 yrs experience, and are able to exhibit good technical roofing skills.....However....Neither one can drive a company truck, due to no DL's. Sent a carpenter/helper with them to drive. They left the van at the shop chock full of debris/etc. tools intertwined amongst debris....took me an hour to clean/straighten it out....THEN! They turn in their time; 8:30 - 5:30...They got to the job at 11:00AM left at 4:30PM....

(I had them show up at the shop, at 8:30, so I could forcible get them to complete their application packages, which I"ve been trying for a week, to get from them.....The fiddle-farted around until 9:30/10 until they left).

So, I tell them the other dasy, this has to be a give & take situation; I'm paying a driver to transport them, as well as a vehicle and the fuel/costs required. I'll be dammed if I'm going to pay them to ride back & forth to the jobs....If that's the way it works and you want $18/hr....You get yourselves to the job.....They couldn't make it the next day, as they had no gas.....

I don't think I saved my reply. :-(

What they talked about was the shortage of workers that we will have. In the millions the baby boomers are retiring and leaving the workforce. We already have a problem getting 20 somethings to join our ranks that have heads on their shoulders. Even getting the young ones to come aboard they may still leave for the jobs that will be open in the next 5 years. Without all of my notes and proper DATA in front of my this is just of the top of my head as far as the numbers.

soldierboy Said: I would say that our shop tops out at $22.00 for the field worker. Thats for someone that can take a work order from start to finish. 1. Set Job up 2. Order Materials 3. Get Crew out to site in a timely fashion 4. Solve any problems on the site without further supervision 5. Fill out time sheets 6. Complete final inspections of his jobs.

That requires skill on all levels.

Where are you at?

Everywhere I've worked, short of the filling out of time sheets, you've mostly described the Superintendent's job.

For what you're talking $wise, it would have to come with a very nice benefit package to get a journeyman here to even think about it, and there aren't many real journeyman anymore.

Granted, as a foreman and/or service tech, I've usually made more than the Supers...

After attending this years International Roofing Expo the picture doesn't look like it's going to get any better in the future. TomB has a point with the PW work and what the Unions pay scale is. I would say that our shop tops out at $22.00 for the field worker. That's for someone that can take a work order from start to finish. 1. Set Job up 2. Order Materials 3. Get Crew out to site in a timely fashion 4. Solve any problems on the site without further supervision 5. Fill out time sheets 6. Complete final inspections of his jobs.

That requires skill on all levels.

Rocky; As to wages, we appear to have somewhat similar philosophies.....Unfortunately we all must deal with several "dynamics" working against us....The most obvious is the "Walmart" mentality of consumers and what comes along with that; The cheapest labor available, (i.e., the illegal workforce).

I've sort of been there - done that...80+ employees, big shop, multliple locations, etc....Now I'm a little guy in the mountains, just plugging along....I tend to pay my employees slightly more than my competitors. Always have. The current private sector wage scale is apxs. 50% of what it should be....A great comparative tool is the prevailing wage scales....For instance; In a particular area the average hrly rate for "journeyman" roofers is $18-20/hr....Whereas, across the street on a gov't property, the prevailing rate is $44/hr.....It used to be much closer, say, back in the early 80's.

Several years ago I was speaking with a competitor who was on his way out, retiring.....He commented on how the scenery was changing so. Used to , he said; The parking lot at the shop was full of nice trucks, young guys/new families, buying their first home, etc....Now it's broken-down sedans full of sloppy, (I won't say it), broke-down types, with...."how musch jew pay"?...the first thing out of their mouth.....Not a pretty picture.

Yes it would be nice to attract more clean-cut industrious types...However, we're a dying breed....

To Egg, thanks for the kind words, you bring a tear to my eye, sinecerly. It's true, we, not I, have built a good base in our market place. Yes, I spent many years on the ladder climbing to get to where I'd like to get to. I'm not there yet, but getting close. My question that started this topic was about employee wages and how they compared with our comtemporaries in the other industries. Why do I ask? A little background on me....... During my teenage years, back in the late sixties and early seventies, in the the great City of Detroit, my father used to flip houses. Of course they didnt call it "flip' back then. Most of the house were 2 story bungaloes and almost all of them, 8/12 or more, needed roof work. Sure enough, being the eldest of three sons I was always the one who had to tie a rope to the fireplace and go up and patch, repair or replace the roofs. Not wanting or liking this type of work and danger, at my earliest convenience, I high tailed it out of there. I packed up and moveed out. Because I was so smart I quit school and went to work in a sheet metal shop. $3.75 an hour, boy was I happy. That was in "73". I went thru a dozen jobs, got married, had 2 lovely daughter's and a son still in the gun. when in "84" a landed a job in Phoenix, AZ. on a tear-off crew. Rode that job for few years. Hard, dirty work and HOT. Some days the temp was 115-118 and the roof was much hotter. Over the next 15 years or so I learned how to do metal, shingles, sprayed alot of foam, torch, Sap. I learned to be a foreman, a supervisor, salesman and a sub-contractor but I never touched a hot mop job except as a super on a 2200sq facorty outlet store in Casa Grande. "2002" I started Distinctive Roofing in Phoenix. Mostly because I was subcontracting for a couple of contractors who screwed me out of my money and I vowed that would happen again In Arizona you have to be licensed to be a roofer and GC's are not allowed to do roofing except shingles. The rest of the story is evolving from "2002" to the present and is in my website, which needs to be update/d. Phew, long winded. All along the way I always thought I was under payed and I said to myself that if I ever own my own business I was going to pay people what they were worth comparing their experience to the most important trades of home building, or the ones that were required to be licensed. I feel roofers 1-5 years should be comparable to a plumber digging ditches, 5-10 years is an electrician that can wire a whole house 10-15year roofer shoud make as much as the hvacman that can r&r coils, crane units up and down, or an accountant that works for a CPA. They're just bean counters. Now some roofers learn faster and some may never develop, but you pay them accordingly. We need good men in our trade, trustworthy people. The days of wearing shorts so short that your nails are hanging out are over. The guy that looks like he just got off a matress with no sheets on it are out. WE need to clean up our people, our orginazation and present a professional appearance to the client, and reward the people that work for us properly. What we give comes back tenfold.

Enough for now......